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tv   Politics and Public Policy Today  CSPAN  August 31, 2016 6:18pm-7:01pm EDT

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history tv" on c-span3. this week during american history tv in primetime, we feature our lectures in history series taking you into college classrooms across the country. each night, we debut a new lecture and tonight it's native americans. at 8:00 eastern, we'll take you to dartmouth college for an overview of american-indian history, and at 9:20, the colonial west in the 1700s from a class at the college of william and mary. that will be followed at 10:30 eastern with a florida state lecture on the creek indians and the first seminole war. that's tonight on american history tv primetime. with the house and senate returning from their summer break next week, on thursday at 8:00 p.m. eastern, we'll preview four key issues facing congress this fall. federal funding to combat the zika virus. >> women in america today want to make sure that they have the
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ability to not get pregnant. why? because mosquitoes ravage pregnant women. >> but today, they turn down the very money that they argued for last may. and they decided to gamble with the lives of children like this. >> the annual defense policy and programs bill. >> all of these votes are very vital to the future of this nation in a time of turmoil and a time of the greatest number of refugees since the end of world war ii. >> gun violence legislation and criminal justice reform. >> every member of this body, every republican and every democrat, wants to see less gun violence. >> we must continue to work the work of nonviolence and demand an end to senseless killing everywhere. >> and the resolution for congress to impeach irs commissioner john koskinen.
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>> house resolution 828, impeaching john koskinen, commissioner of the internal revenue service for high crimes and misdemeanors. >> we'll review the expected debate with susan, senior correspondent for the washington examiner. join us thursday night at 8:00 eastern on c-span for congress this fall. >> c-span, created by america's cable television companies and brought to you as a public service by your cable or satellite provider. turkish political scholars and american observers reflected on the failed military coup that attempted to unseat the turkish president. panelists talk about the effect of the coup on turkey's relations with the u.s. and european union. it's about an hour and a half. >> good afternoon, ladies and
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gentlemen. and welcome to the panel on july 15th, failed coup attempt and its implications on turkish american relation i'm the research director at the noungs dc. we have a very distinguished panel. i will try to keep my remarks very short. the introductions will be short, as well so we have a lot of time for questions and discussions in the aftermath of the panel. as i said, we have a very distinguished panel. we have hal little berktay, burhan net tin duran, and shadi hamid, senior fellow at brookings institution and author of the new book "is lappic exceptionalism," and ca dir ustun xekt director of the foundation in washington, d.c. we apologize for the
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inconvenience about the last minute venue change. we had one good one, one bad reason. the good reason was the rsvps passed 100 so we decided to find a bigger space. the bad. >> ray: was, there was a power out and in our building. so anyways, it looks like this was a good decision. we will start with ha little berktay to give us a historical perspective about the coups in turkey and how should we understand the coup attempt that took place in july 15. >> is this working? >> yes. >> thank but. it's a pleasure to be here. although the reason behind it is not such a happy one. well, maybe happy in the defeat than in the attempt. i want to make two points. one is about the historical -- yeah, i think there's a problem at the microphone.
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okay. i'd like to make two points. one is about the historic -- >> to hear in the back here. >> maybe -- >> av people? one is about the historical specificity, indeed the uniqueness of the 15th july coup and its defeat. and the second is about the uniqueness, this time a much more bizarre uniqueness if you want. of the organization. the network, the con gra garks the plotters behind the coup. the first is more broadly historical. for the west, for western democracies, military takeovers
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or army tutelage, coups, interventions, et cetera, have become largely a thing of the past. left behind in the 19th century. it has not been the case with the newly emerging democracies of the 20th or the early 21st centuries in the rest of the world. as we all know, especially from 1945 onwards from the moment of the great on set of decolonization onwards. ask the once upon a time so-called third world emerged. this nonwestern, non-european immediate zone between the united states and the soviet union caught in the throes of the cold war became the setting for weak democracies and strong armies or repeated and sometimes
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very long-lasting interventions, military interventions in democratic life. central and south america witnessed numerous coups and long-lasting military regimes that were in general pro-american or else the united states was said to always have a finger in the pie in these latin america military interventions. whether it was brazil or argentina or chile or earlier in the 1950s, guatemala, et cetera, whereas in the middle east and in the arab world, it was much more a matter of the soviets having their fingers in the pie. in nas sir style or baath style army takeovers in egypt, iraq, syria, algeria, north and south yemen at one point and so on and
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so forth. so there were always these army take overs and to the best of my knowledge, they were never defeated or rather they were never defeated by a popular and nonviolent resistance. sometimes, army takeover attempts did go wrong but this was because a different faction of the armed forces came out in opposition. so that there was maybe civil war, some kind of interim struggle, the initial initiative was neutralized and possibly overcome later or there was a subsequent personalization, fragmentation of authority countrywide. in all these respects, and in terms of turkish history itself
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in the 20th century, what happened in -- what happened in 15th, 16th of july represents a new departure. and i think we have to throw in a few things about turkey's precocity in third world terms in order to put this in proper context. the ottoman empire was never clonnized in the had loan 19th century when the new imperialism of the post 1870s saw the extension of colonial empires in the course of the scramble for africa, southeast asia, polynesia, and so on and so forth. when existing colonial empires were expanding or new ones were being created or making a comeback as in the case of the french, the ottoman empire itself was never colonized. it fought a long and difficult
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rear guard action against colonization. testimony traded space for time you might say. it kept losing or giving up chunks of territory while gaining the time top launch its own modernization attempt from above precisely an attempt to modernize its own state so that it would not suffer the fate of ultimate colonization. and somehow it succeeded. it survived into the early 20th century and precisely because of that success, a second crucial moment at the end of world war i and total defeat, on top of that, there came a surprisingly successful war of national resistance, again against the prospect of colonization. this was the resistance. i'm talking about the chem ma lift national resistance of 1920, 1922 which, of course, was
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a protothird world struggle but it was not exactly an anti-colonial war of national liberation because the situation was not exactly colonial. instead, it was a kind of struggle to protect, redefine and consolidate an already existing independence and state sovereignty which again was successful i would say because of the previous background, that's to say the entire background of 19th century taz i na modernization before it. so it is possible to look at it like this. with regard to the rest of third world independence or national liberation struggles to come especially after 1945, turkey had a head start of something like 25, 30 years. this is what i mean when i speak of modern turkish precocity with regard to the rest of a lot of
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the non-european world. there was had the regime became an authoritarian modernist. it set up a one-party state so from 1925 to 1927 especially until 1946, 1950, let's face it, there was a one-party dictatorship in turkey. turkish textbooks and university and high school kurk rick u la refer to this euphemistically as the one-party period but i mean the true name for it, the correct name for it is, of course, one party dictatorship which was the turkish nationalist version of what was happening in the soviet union and what would be extended to eastern europe or china after 1945.
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the third crucial moment is the turkish transition to a multiparty democracy in 1946-1950. again, we witness yet a third instance of this precocity that i'm talking about. at a time when most of the current 150 or so new countries and states that the have emerged since the founding of the united nations -- the united nations was founded with just 50 countries, more or less. let's remember. because that was all there was in terms of independence and sovereignty in the world at that time. and since then, another 150 or so have been added. so that is a good index, the current u.n. membership stands at nearly 200. where have all these countries come from? out of the dismantling of old colonial empires. at a time when they were the
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first ten or 20 among them, when they were just becoming independence and sovereign states in the 1940s, turkey always with that same head start of 25 or 30 years in terms of social, economic and political development, was launching its own experiment in transitioning to a one-party democracy, which a lot of the rest of the third world would embark upon much later. this new turkish democracy was not without its downs as well as ups. there were military coups in 1960, 1971, 1980, a so-called post modern coup or light coup that is to say a very forceful ultimatum which forced the government to resign in 1997, punctuating this difficult growth and development of
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turkish democracy from 1946, 1950 onwards. these coups like virtually every other coup in the third world are successful. nobody resisted them. the people had voted and they had opted for this or that political party. but when faced with collective might of the armed forces, they did not take to the streets. they did not oppose, they did not resist. they behaved, fib me historians metaphor in medieval history, it is generally said that, well in the let's say in the 12th and 13th centuries you have all these italian city states bickering among themselves in you know constant jealousy and competition but every now and then, a german emperor chooses to come over the alps and when the germans enters italy,
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everybody goes low. and the idea is let's stop bickering among ourselves and let's lie quiet until they go back. and this is what the people in turkey did at the time of the 19267-1971, 19 0 coups. i lived through all of these. i was 13, 14 years when the first one happened. 27, may 1960. and the idea becomes let's keep quiet, let's lie low so that they -- eventually decide that matters are back to normal, they decide to hold elections so that we can vote again and they go back to their barracks. this time something different happens and i think we have to make an effort to understand just how different and how novel what happened is. when it became clear around 9:00, 9:309 p.m. on the confused
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evening of 15th july that at least part of the army was trying to stage yet another military takeover, and i must emphasize this, at least two hours before president erdogan was eventually able to connect to a television station in order to call out the people onto the streets to resist and defeat the coup. and a hour and a half, maybe two hours before that, when people in istanbul and an-cala and all over turkey realized that, yet again, the military or a section of the military were trying to take over the fruits of their democratic will away from them, they were trying to take away their own democracy that they had voted for away from them. they poured out onto the
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streets, relatively spontaneously and they began to undertake a series of quite creative acts of resistance. about which i realized now much has been written in the west, unfortunately. individual operators of heavy work machines started dragging their trucks, their lories, their work machines, their bulldozers, their harvest teres to the entrances of military garrisons so as to block thanks from potentially exiting and joining the coup. in places in central antolia, adjoining military air strips, jet fighter bases, farmers set
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their own crops afire so as to create heavy smoke in order to prevent potential pro junta jet fighter planes from taking off. imagine a peasant. peasants are in many ways in terms of their life habits some of the most conservative people on earth. imagine setting fire to you know your entire hope for the next year, your own crops in order to prevent air force action in support of the coup. they gathered in front of police headquarters, sensitive government offices, turkish state radio and television, istanbul airport to first surround the thanks and the junta's troops, eventually to talk with them to take them down
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to surmount the thanks or force them to leave. and many public places on na fateful night of 15th, july, were actually liberated before police action or anti-coup army intervention directly by masses of turkish civilians using nonviolent means. not a stone was thrown. no weapons were wielded or used. but using demonstrating just the collective might of mass action to overcome and defeat the coup, and in effect, to paralyze the plotters as they realized that they had not answered to this. all in all, i think it will go down not just in turkish history but perhaps in the history of the entire third world as yet
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another vicious attempt at destroying parliamentary democracy. that was uniquely defeated by civilian mass action. thank you. >> our second speaker is burhanettin duran. on july 15th, he was the first person i called. and he was somewhere really close on that date. and immediately after, he had a team doing a widely circulated and widely cited research report on the perception of the people on the streets, and there were various important questions about why they are there and what they are protecting what, they are fighting against. so first, let us get his understanding -- his idea about what happened and who did it and
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then i'll ask him to state a little bit about this recent report. thank you. >> thank you very much. i am very pleased to talk about turkish recent experience of failed coup detat in washington because i know that some of you may be are perplexed what is happening in turkey in real terms. maybe to help in clarifying your perception of turkey's experiment with this coup d'etat is to argue that there should be a rethinking in western capitals in understanding what happened in turkey. you know, professor berktay made
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a good speech in defining the parameters of a new happening in turkey. that is, a civil and democratic resistance to coup d'etat. this is -- this is the first time that turkish people resisted against the military takeovers. so this should be understood in real terms because of -- because we need to to rethink turkish dynamics, the dynamics of turkish politics. you know, we have some understanding, we have some perceptions about where turkey is headed under erdogan's strong leadership. so many people are thinking in terms of an authoritarianism
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islamization or many other accuizations against the turkish government. but you know, there is a ground deep flow of change in turkish society after this failed coup d'etat. actually, it would be proper to call it 8/15 for turkeyish people. you know, draupt tick change and traumatic happening for the turkish people. so from different sectors of turkish society united against this coup d'etat for the protection of their democracy and for the protection of their homeland. you know, in this study led by seta, we started actually in the second night, we were -- i was at the bosphorus bridge with my
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wife. we left the bosphorus bridge when the thanks were actually captured by civil people, and then went to home to sleep. and in the second night, we started for this research in the democracy watches, democracy watch nights, and the maybe the main finding was the protection of homeland, protection, patriotism actually was the main motive behind this attempt of people. well, maybe you know what most googled in turkey that night was how to stop a tank. and just after two days, my daughter gave me a tank made by
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pepper. you know, paper. this is a traumatic dramatic event that you can visualize in every people's mind. the image of the tank as the beginning of an era for turkish democracy. so that's why all sectors of turkish society united against it coup d'etat including anti-air -- in media or political parties or sectors. that was the main finding. when i heard that the chp leader was not participating, was not joining in the meeting, i said, what a pity for chp. you know, because i know the findings from the research. he should participate. maybe some of the people, some
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of the responsible people warn him in joining this meeting, and actually, he joined in that meeting. because the ground of turkish people very strong in supporting democratic civil resistance against the coup d'etat. so from washington or from any european capital, i think all analysts should consider this first point. that is, a civil democratic resistance supported by all people. another one is, who is behind this coup d'etat? again, 95% of the people agreed on that. this is the act of a movement. we call it fethullah terrorists organization in turkish. well, it is interesting to see
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that the people who are protesting or making appearance in democracy watch's night thought that before this coup d'etat, one-third of the people in the streets in the squares thought that gulen movement was a service organization, was a peaceful service organization. even after the 17th december operations, they thought in that way. but this coup d'etat change all the things, and until -- after from that night, all people started to think that this service organization has transformed itself into a secret and terrorist organization. so this is the general perception of the people. gulen movement is a mixture of
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secret society and terrorist organization deeply rooted in the critical state institutions including judiciary, military, intelligence, and others, education and other services. so they all of them should be pleased from the critical state institutions. that is the general consensus of the people of the people for that take place in democracy watch nights. then what are the characteristics of this movement? you know, it is very common to classify religious groups into moderate or radical. and this organization was seen mostly in the literature and by some many analysts as moderate. but you know, there is more than
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that. this is a mixture of secret society and different layers. they have different layer of organization. there are different layers or they pictured themself as different what is really taking place in the circle. when you look at the writings about gulen movement or some people who left the movement after the 17th, december, they all accept that from the beginning actually gulen movement designed itself as a pluristic structure. what was the motive. >> that was the deep preach of the movement's leader gulen because he thought that i have to find a new way to get rid of
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this secularist elite from the state structures. and then design itself as moderate organization in appearance but the inner circle was very radical and very severely faith-based, but at the same time, have a clear message, have a clear goal of controlling the state. so this 40 years, 40-year struggle actually produced a large network. of course, with many connections, many international connections and networks from education, from schools to hospitals to media outlets to
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even many cadres in the state structures. so very strategic mind here and there's a planned planned condu of affairs through the years, and it is very critical for turkey now to get rid of this structure, these parallel structures. because the issue is very critical how to deal with this secular organization. you know, in the literature decapitation is very effective in dealing with religious organizations, much more than ethnic secular organizations. so in turkish people's eye, extraditing gulen to turkey is more important than all the pkk leaders. because, you know, if gulen is
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safe in pennsylvania he will continue brainwashing for the followers, the disappointed followers of this movement. you know, this -- his messianic style of religious interpretation is very effective in his followers because from the beginning this religious organization was autonomous in the sense that being influenced from any other religious movements in turkey. so they had the autonomy interpreting religious principles as well. that is making very effective his leadership on his followers. maybe the major defect is the idea of success because this movement is based on the
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glorious success. success is sanctified by god for them, for their organization, but this time there is a very clear failure, so maybe this may create criticism within the organization as well. the second critical aspect for turkey in the fight against fethullah is the need to recognize its members. of course, this needs readjustment of the religious views of the people, and at the same time, in a way the reintegration into the society. well, as the last remarks maybe i should point to relations between turkey and u.s. you know, the reaction coming
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from the washington circles disturbed many people in turkey actually because people expected much more than that. the early statements made by kerry, secretary of state, state of secretary kerry commenting on the instability was regarded as if the coup d'etat was successful the u.s. would prefer to work with this coup plotters, so this perception in the people's eye creates skepticism towards the u.s., so this should be rehabilitated, but how? to have an active cooperation in dealing with this organization for turkey, this is a national
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security issue for turkey. if the u.s. is showing an active cooperation in dealing with this threat, this may help to -- to lessen the tension created by all these happenings. actually, gulen is living in pennsylvania, and he's finding safe refuge in this country. this reality, whether it is a legal process or a political process, you know, i'm not an expert on law, but this will be detrimental to turkish people's understanding of the u.s. something should be done for the future of u.s.-turkey relations,
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and i will think that kadir will help us in eliminating this aspect. thank you very much. >> and our third speaker shadi hamid will talk about the regional implications of this and possibly some comparisons with some other countries in the middle east in the region that experienced a coup or coup attempts. >> hello, everyone. thank you to seta d.c. for having me. on july 15th -- first of all, let me just say that twitter can be dangerous because on july 15th i was off twitter for a couple hours, and i got back on, and everyone on my twitter feed was talking about a coup attempt, and i'm like this -- this happens a lot. you get off twitter and then something really bald happens so i was trying to catch un, and i remember, you know, as it was sort of settling in what was going on in realtime, i felt --
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i felt this sick feeling t.reminded me of how i felt on july 1st, july 2nd, july 3rd, 2013 when the egyptian coup was happening and as someone who has worked a lot on egypt, you know, i couldn't help but see those comparisons, and that also made me think, well, what is the u.s. response going to be, and i think burhanettin talked about this had a little bit. there's no doubt in my mind that the coup plotters thought to themselves, well, hey, in previous coups that have happened in the meefrkts including the one in egypt, what was the u.s. stance? hand let's be honest. as an american, i think it's fair to say we as americans were complicit in the success of the military coup in egypt, not in it actually happening but certainly afterwards in helping to legitimize the -- the new military regime. so that precedent is a dangerous
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one that the coup plot hers to be aware of. the second thing i'll say on that there's no doubt in my mind that if the coup had actually succeeded that the u.s. would be perhaps, let's say, indulgent towards the coup plotters in there was a sense that they were succeeding, and i just say this not because -- well, the u.s. does have a bad history when it comes to coups, but this secretary of state in particular, john kerry, has a very soft spot for dictators, let's be honest about it, he does. and i think that his inclination would have been to make peace with the coup if it -- if that's where turkey was going. so it's understandable for me to understand -- to understand why turks would be very suspicious about the u.s. response. luckily, secretary kerry made a strong statement several hours into the coup, but i think for a lot of people that wasn't quick
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enough so i think it's important for those of us in washington to understand where that suspicion is coming from. so it's not something you can really prove, because we're talking about an alternate history of what would have happened if the coup had succeeded? but it's that distrust and suspicion that i think has a corrosive effect on u.s.-turkish relations. on the other hand, i think it's also fair to say that turks, many turks don't necessarily understand the u.s. position on this, so it goes both ways, and this is where i think that the conspiracy theories that we're hearing from some turkish officials, some party members is very problematic. this idea that somehow the u.s. was complicit in the coup before the coup happened or as it was happening, there's no evidence to support this, and everything we know about the obama
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administration would suggest that this is very, very unlikely. why? because the last thing obama would ever want to do is get more involved in the middle east. his overarching premise in his middle east policy is to do as little as possible, to be involved in a coup plot takes a lot of time and effort and attention, and that is not something that obama could conceivably be involved in from any reasonable standpoint in my view. so i think, you know, if -- if turkish tishls are trying to make their case to their counterparts in the u.s., it does not help to engage in those kinds of conspiracy theories. and i think that also hurts -- it also hurts the case for extradition, because some of the rhetoric around extraditing gulen is a little bit over the top, and, again, the case has to meet a certain evidentiary standard, and i think it's a very good thing that the u.s. has high evidentiary standards when it comes to extraditing
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people who are accused of various crimes, political or otherwise, so i think that's really important to keep in mind here. and i think that, also, you know, the fact that the crackdown had, in my view and i know people can disagree on this, in my view has been disproportionate, and the net has been cast very widely in ways that i don't think can be justified legally or according to any general understanding of due process. when it comes to, you know, mass resignations or dismissals of members of the civil service or university teens, so on and so forth, of course, after a coup, there have to be people who are arrested and detained and questioned. but i think we also have to talk about what would be a proportional response and if tens of thousands of people are being dismissed or detained there's a real discussion you


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