tv Politics and Public Policy Today CSPAN November 11, 2016 12:57am-2:00am EST
that is when he was actually in moscow and was meeting wi stali. they were plying them with alcohol. and eaton and churchill were licking back the vodka. unfortunately, stalin licking back the water in his glass. in the end they walk out and his sergeant, manners, who i believe still lives in california and had the role of being his security adviser, watched them. he says, wobble down the street to their hotel and refused to get into their taxi. so that the only time i know of for sure there's an eyewitness to the fact that he was an alcoholic. one other time alluded to. lord moran caught him, thought he was drunk in the war room, so here was the barbitol on board and yes indeed he probably did wobble out from bed taking his
afternoon nap. i don't think he was drunk. >> i have to say that that advice on alcohol consumption may be the most encouraging thing i've heard for a very long time. let's go to the gentleman at the book of the room now. >> i would like to start by saying how much i appreciate the canadians arrival in england in 1940. the first canadian division arrived and they were virtually the only group or troops we had to protect us. i also appreciated them because i can remember them with our feet up on our fender in our kitchen. giving me lollipops and american comics, including little orphan annie. the question i would like to ask is that at the end of the war i believe the canadians forgive
britain debt. i would like to ask, if you know, how much that was in financial terms. i'm not sure exactly here. okay. i'm not sure exactly how much they gave. the total amount that canada gave to britain and to join the war was $3.2 billion. that was used for manufacturers and food stuffs and machinery and military equipment. but after the war, as you probably know, the united states and canada gave $5 billion. gave a loan at 2% interest and $5 billion. this was just -- came into prominence just maybe seven or eight years ago when the loan was paid off. and all i remember about that time was that the united states
$3.8 billion loan was paid off. i didn't see anything about the $1.2 billion loan at the same time, which was paid off to canada. and when, as you know, not throwing the flag around too much here, but as you know, with the united states having ten times the population of canada, mathematically canada gave over three times as much and that's the loan, the low interest. >> i think we have time for one more question, if the question and answer are both sufficiently wreef. brief /* brief. i saw the gentleman in the back there so i will turn to him.bri. i saw the gentleman in the back there so i will turn to him. >> i will direct this to the gentlemen about churchill and the bomb. i can make a couple of comments of how the soviet union addressed this at the time. the simple fact of the matter is during the teens, 20s and 30s,
there are were many conferences, some of which sponsored by kneel neil spore where scientists and western scientists interacted. there is a cross of ideas.neil spore where scientists and western scientists interacted. there is a cross of ideas. and the fact that the west took the assumption that soviets knew nothing about these matters really is in retrospect is correct. they were behind in engineering of how to con frukt a bomb with you the thee rhettics of it they had mastered. as we go forward and jump forward from mutual assured destruction, the fact is, that in peace time alone there had been a thousand nuclear detonations by testing and by war in the last four or five decades. and both the soviets and our scientists came to be very
concerned about not just mutual assured destruction but assured destruction of life on this planet if a large number were brought to the surface of our devices and detonated at the same time. as it turned out, it was the green party of the russian orthodox church to convince the committee's considering reagan's strategic defense initiative to go ahead, ignore the sdi, and proceed and accept treaties. this is a fact not commonly known, that russian orthodox church played a role in that. >> okay. very briefly. both point are very well made. and very interesting. i will just comment in return on the first point. i think it is one of the many, you could almost say, tragic incidents of history. that discovery of nuclear chain reactions merely occurs as 1939
is born. and so there is a world war looming at that year. that is what propels things forward thereafter. you're absolutely right, in the so-called international republic of science, the idea is about nuclear fish and up to september 1939 there were martin is her win estimated something like 90 serious papers published in country after country around the world. you name it. so when all that internationallization of knowledge kind of grind to halt when the war starts, the fact is the jeannie is out of the bottle and i think people like bore, and people like anderson, and i do think his scientific background here, they knew this thing if it worked wouldn't just be a greater aggregation of tnt and so on and so forth. they knew this was a potentially
apocalyptic development and very naive and prezum shoe sumptuousy could get this. bore was in favor of war time use. anderson as well. but what you do afterwards. that was a step that churchill rightly or wrongly and i think con tektly we can understand what he did what he did, refused to take it. but your point are very well made. i appreciate them, thank you. >> thank you very much. i think we all know what we have to do after this panel, which is step outside for a couple minutes for a cup of coffee then return to andrew roberts. let me close with a thanks to all three panelists. and turn it over. [ applause ] >> i want to thank all of the panelis panelists for reaffirming the brilliance of the chairmen of
the conference. we will take our break and resume promptly at 10:45. thank you. friday, american history tv in prime time features veterans day themed programs. at 8 will okay p.m. eastern first ladies during prime time. then at the:10, first ladies in the military with laura bush and michelle obama. at 10:05, real america. featuring 1921 film, "the unknown soldier". then artifacts on woodrow wilson and world war i. then world war ii stories. on friday, the wreath laying ceremony at the tomb of the unknown soldier. followed by the veterans department at cemetery
amphitheater. we will have live coverage at 121:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. >> this weekend on american history tv, on c-span 3, saturday night a little after 7:00 eastern, kings college london visiting professor andrew roberts discusses the roll of u.s. chief of staff george c. marshal. arguing his skills transformed the army. >> this man with a beautiful manners with a was incorruptible, aun astonishingly calm considering the pressure is on him. >> then the 1921 silent film honoring the unknown soldier of world war i. >> it was tremendous. the streets of washington were lined with thousands of folks who waited for the casket to be
removed and brought by the honor guard down pennsylvania avenue and then across the bridge into virginia. and i think what i've read is one of the largest turnouts for any parade in the city. >> sunday evening at 6:00 eastern, when american artifact. >> beautiful building. from the moment it opened, it was already too small for what it was about to face. constructed to handle about half million people a year and ended up handling in 1907 alone, 1,200,000 people. >> toured ellis island to learn about the experience. just before 9:00, in 1916 president wilson nominated boston lawyer louis to the united states supreme court becoming the first jew to sit on the nation's highest court. in commemoration of the 100th anniversary of his nomination, author of louis brandeis, talks
about the career and legacy. >> what brandeis is trying to do here is limit the court to a very specific rule. and which limits or should limit any one branch from exercising power beyond its described provance. >> for more information, go to c-span.org. >> next, american history tv featuring another panel from the annual winston churchill conference. historians and authors discuss the romantic information and sensitivity of sir winston churchill. this is 45 minutes. >> thank you, david. very much enjoying my first experience at the international churchill conference. and i'm very pleased to be introducing our next speaker,
andrew roberts. coming from the national world war i museum and memorial with youth enjoying the center and looking forward to the partnership this weekend at the centennial symposium and i'm very excited to work with the churchill center, and i don't know where he is right now, on a new young professionals group that will be having a churchillian event next saturday. hopefully we have a whole new wave of churchillians joining in the future. that event is completely sold out. very exciting for everyone here. as soon as works in social media 24/7, i can't help but wonder what churchill would have done if he had access to twitter. especially at 3:00 a.m. but i encourage everyone to tweet out using the hashtag churchill2016. the team at the churchill center has bb doing a wonderful job,
john olson here. and andrew robert is on twitter as well. so that means it's absolutely okay. so i e-mailed andrew robert a few times before -- as i was constructing this introduction. i asked him to give a highlight to which he replied, this is not a direct quote, i've written 13 books. so i do have the amembers honino introduce andrew roberts, 13 times over an incredible author. andrew roberts is presently a visiting professor at war studies department at king college london and lecture at new york miss core cal society. he has written or edited 19 books which is translate need 22 languag languages. his works include churchillians, hitler, and the storm of war. he is presently writing a biography for penguin which will
be published in 2018. speaking today on the romantic i imagination of churchill, please welcome, andrew roberts. [ applause ] >> ladies and gentlemen, it is great honor to to be invited to address you again and thank you megan for those kind words. i've put a book over there and not because it has anything whatsoever to do with my speech today. but simply because i believe in the power of subliminal advertising. in august 1933, churchill wrote that american audiences quote yield to none in the interest attention and good nature with which they follow a lengthy considered statement. it is up to you ladies and
gentlemen to keep that tradition going. for at least the next 45 minutes. the concept of the british stiff upper lip was invented by the victorians and especially prevalent in the upper classes where it was considered in for dig to show ones emotions hopely to where one's heart on one's sleeve. it was widely believed that the british empire itself depended on the capacity of officers and gentlemen to rise above their natural human emotion answers stay calm and collected regardless of whatever appalling thing was going on. very center of that british belief system which some including chur of hi including churchill's grandson had broken down at the death of diana princess of wales in 19 the the to be found in the british army.9 the the to be found in the british army.9 the the to be found in the british army.1999the the to be british army.he the to be found british army.1999e the to be found in the british army. the to be found in the british army.1999the to be found in the british army.he to be found in
british army.1999e to be found in the british ar . to be found in the british army. a admiral w admiral horatio's, and all carrying the coffin down the halls of the cathedral was in tears as well as at least half of the all-male congregation. regency men were not expected to have to control their emotions in the way that their victorian grandsons and great grandsons were. yet there was one victorian upper class british army officer and gentleman who cried in public to such an extraordinary extent, that it was marked upon on so many occasions that we need to regard him instead of being a victorian chronologically speaker. actually born out of his time. winston churchill was a man of such powerful, deep emotions with profoundly romantic imagination and capacity for empathy and also such a
disregard of what others thought of him. that if he felt like crying, he did. such was his historical imagination too. that this astonishing lachrymosity could be unleashed at greatest occasions, especially if music were involved mp in 1983 churchill's last private secretary, brown, was interviewed by john, about churchill's tepd ency to weep. in his early days when i was with him about three months he wept a lot, anthony told john. he told me after dinner, i blubber an awful lot, you know, you have to get used to that. he was asked, what would stimulate that. anthony replied, tales of heroism. he loved animals. noble dogs struggling through the snow to his master would inspire tears. that was touching. found it perfectly acceptable.
when it come to blood, toil, tears and sweat, churchill knew about all of them and especially tears. as lord halifax described him as having a curious mixture of a child's emotion and man's reason. so here are a few occasions taking chronologically through your churchill's life in which he is recorded as crying. on 30 september 1897, he wrote to his mother, he i rarely defect a genuine emotion in myself. his great friend, william brown clayton, was killed close to him on an expedition. i must rank it as rare instance that i cried when i saw saw bro clayton literally cut to pieces on a stretcher. churchill wept on sir henry wilson, commander in cheer of the british expeditionary form departing for france in 1914. i never liked him so much, wilson wrote about him. on the 10th of august that year when his faithful man servant
died, he worked for his father before him. he wrote to clementine after the funeral. i lost this humble friend, devoted in true, whom i've known since i was a youth. few other aristocrats would describe his man servant as a friend. he added there were about 40 mourners including all household who wept bitterly. it is fair to assume he could be included with them. in 1824 when baldwin asked if he would serve as chancellor, chancellor assumed it meant dutch of lancaster and said of the dutchy and baldwin said no of the aschecka and tears came into churchill's eyes wauz he said that he would be able to vindicate the chancellorship of his late father. on the death of efy smith,
churchill's great friend, in 1930, last night winston wept for his friend, clementine wrote to margaret. he said, sometimes i feel so lonely np p november 1934, ivan, whose is brilliant diaries have just been published and edited sue pee superbly by gabriel god rof ski. i was atebding ttending a weddi. churchill looked deeply moved and at one point seemed to wipe his eyes with a handkerchief. i remember how churchill shed tears at lawrence's funeral. wrote captain basil little heart. and after lunching with churchill on the 11th of december, day after his abdication p, as i saw mr. churchill off, there were tears in his eyes. but they were royalist tears.
because as during the coronation of george vi, six months later at precise moment the queen consult was crowned, churchill, eyes full of tears, turned to clementine said, with you are right. i see now that the other one wouldn't have done. during the munich crisis there was a din ear during which it was discovered that neither anthony eaton clementine would join him. make nothing further concession eats the expense of the checks. recalling how the telegram was not dispatched and one by one our friend went out defeated. winston remained sitting in his chair, immobile, frozen like man of stone. i saw tears in his eyes. i could feel the iron entering his soul. his last attempt to salvage what was left of a honor and good
faith failed. i spoke of bitterness of those who refused even to put their names to principles and policies which they had professed. then he spoke, what are they made of. the day will come when we won't have signature to gives but lives. lives of millions. can we survive when there is no courage anywhere. three days later on second of october, when cooper resigned. churchill cried again. in 1940 when harry hopkins told churchill he would get a million rifles from the usa churchill was vicely moved it tears. on the 13th of may 1940 coincidentally on the same day as blood toil tears and sweat speech, george recorded the the mp and dirist carol nicholson. tells winston how fond he is of him. winston cries slightly and mops his eyes. as church -- sorry be lord
george's private secretary aj sylvester recorded. winston's eyes filled with tears. he buried his head quickly in his left hand and wiped his face. on the fourth of july 1940 he cried after the decision to sink the french fleet. when churchill finished his seat and the whole house irrespective of party affiliation jumped to its feet and applauded the prime minister for several minutes. loud powerful ovation. sitting on the treasury bench, tension draining, churchill lowered his head and tears ran down cheeks. a strong scene. at least a real leader was the cry ek yog through the lobbies. winston left the house and of course winston churchill's private secretary of the day, recorded of that occasion winston left the house viably
affected. i heard him say to alicia, this is heart breaking for me. visiting an air raid shelter after the first big raid of the blitz on the 8th of september 1940. churchill in the words after letter from the military second to the war cabinets broke down completely at his welcome. you see, he cares. he really cares, a woman called out. he's crying. f two months later, another mp and to lord halifax noted at nefl chamberlain's funeral, winston had the decency to cry when he stood by the calfin. one of those present, american an bas ambassador wrote in his memo,
this was hard for churchill to not be overcome with emotion. we had two lovely films after dinner. waun called squot escape "and the other was a comedy called "quiet wedding." also several short reels from the ministry.other was a comedyt wedding." also several short reels from the ministry.was a comedy calle wedding." also several short reels from the ministry.other was a comedyt wedding." also several short reels from the ministry. winston managed it cry through all of them, lady cooper wrote, including the comedy. in 1941 there were tears in churchill's eyes when he met the japanese ambassador. when george was asked why, he was told with a smile, tears in
his eyes, yes, that happens to winston. he is a very emotional man. so what. now he has tears because he wants to crush hitler. within a year he may have tears because of the shock and horrors of war. things change. needless to say, because of lord george to have made. in 1841 elizabeth nell joins the typing team taking dictation from the prime minister. sometimes his voice would become thick with emotion and occasionally a tear would rundown his cheek. the next month he cried when visiting the destroyed chamber of the house of commons. didn't make any attempt to wipe away the tears. when in june 1941 following month therefore, spy chief, met churchill in london. the permanent undersecretary at foreign office in theed the prime minister crying the
following month also while watching that hamilton woman, great lawrence owe live yay vivian lee movie about nelson. on the next month, on a journalist present noticed how churchill was affected as i knew he would be. his handkerchief stole from his closet. that november, writing to his brother tom about the effect of the bombing of cities and wait it affected churchill personally, in particular he wrote to the prime minister's extreme sensitiveness to suffering. i remember some years ago his eyes filling up with tears when he talked of the suffering of the jews in germany. while i recall the tones in which looked -- he looked at blitzed houses and said poor little homes. it is a side of his character that is not always appreciated.
the very fact ladies and gentlemen that so many people mentioned it, shows in it and of itself how unusual it was for men to cry in public in those days. even something as mundane as lunch for lobby journalist on 9th of march 1942 set off churchill's water works. major general john kennedy recalled one on that particular day with a good pararacing with tears that brought him applauds. he was moved to tears in cabinets by a speech by christian smuts, prime minister of south africa. next know cried again during the army that and begin in tripoli in february in the 51st division. the bands beautifully turned out and near lay hundred strong led the march called "colonel m.
jake opd, to the cabinet. down in the cloudless sky when the union jack from the star set up over an arch way on the upper part of the ruined castle and armed century stop. all around with veterans of the eighth army standing in the lost city of mussolini's empire, no wonder the tears rolled down the prime minister's cheeks as he took the salute of one of our finest divisions. the bitter moment in the white house when tabrooke fell was swallowed up in the joy in the morning of tripoli. when the prime minister was taken to visit the saub marine crew, churchill made a delightful speech and he came way with tears running down his cheeks. cunningham feared actually on that occasion. he talked about always talk walking in the valley of shadow of death.
it certainly didn't seem to effect the morale of the submarine crews that day. that november during the cairo conference, one day after lunch with the president, churchhill asked his daughter, sarah, to arrange to go to the pyramids to see if he could get cloegs enough -- close enough to take fdr there. mr. president, you simply must come to see the sphinx and pyramid, and sink back again, churchhill turned away and said, we'll wait for you in the car. outside, sarah, saw that his eyes were bright with tears, i love that man, he said simply. the end of that same conference in sarah's words, as it was thanking giving we had turkey. the president carved the giant turkey like a skilled professional. made speeches afterwards, the
par with tears flowing down his cheeks. band composed of american boys played beautifully in the background and everyone sang. new year in 1944, saw church hill seriously hill with pneumonia. he made an unexpected return to the house of commons. he was flushed with pleasure and emotion and hardly has he sat down when two large tears began to trickle down his cheeks. he marked this clumsily with a hugehandkerchief. my friends told them, when the guards club -- sorry, when the guard's chapel was hit and 121 people were killed in 1944, he saw the arc lights shining on the ceiling and illuminating winston churchhill who stood on
the rubble weeping. after deliberation in 1944, church hill was presented an attractive ox. on opening the casket, recorded one onlooker, he found it contained not a scroll, but the nazi flag that had flown over the town hall during the occupation and the tears poured down his cheeks. he cried in april 1945 at fdr's memorial service, also when he visited the grave after the war. on the fourth of may, they were celebrated drinks, fourth of may 1995, celebrated with the chiefs of staff. and there, kworgt allen brooks diary, tears in his eyes for all he had done.
one of the chief of staffs. later that month in the coalition after the coalition government had broken up. church hill was at home for those who had served there during the war. he wrote in his diary of how standing behind the familiar green bay's cabinet table now draped as a buffet. he addressed this with tears streaming down his cheeks. he said we had all come together, let's stay together as united band of friends in a very trying time. history would recognize this. the lights of history will shine on helmets, he said, two months later, patrick and elizabeth sat crying with him when the results of the 1945 election came through. so did the tears. in may 1947, the french
politician presenting -- presented the military to impeccable choice having won as a sergeant during the defen wept with emotion during his speech. particularly delighted by the sadly story that had the right to be driven home without charge by the police. there's a photograph on the zercht of may on the congress of europe and there was another moment for church hill during a conservative party meeting, the same month. the council of europe in 1949, he was acclaimed in the city by cheering crowds. he wept. he spoke in french and gave wisdom and guidance to the council. when on returning to office in
1951. church hill learned the government had decided should no longer be played by the air force or the canadian navy. he had the, by now, defense minister complain to the prime minister. he almost decided that he would council his visit in 1952 after the matter. he was persuaded to -- persuaded not to, according to, threatened to close down and move by the sea. when he disembarked from the sleeper at the station opposite the chateau, the world canadian air force struck up and church hill wept and from then on in the words, nobody ever dared to utter even mildest criticism of or of canada.
the death had the effects that you would, by now, at this point in my speech have expected. when i went to the prime minister's bedroom, he was sitting alone with tears in his line looking straight in front of him and reading neither his official papers nor his newspaper. i have not realized how much the king met him. i tried to cheer him up, but all he could say he did not know her and she was only a child. he nonetheless went down down to meet and took jane to whom he dictated in the car who recalled how he was in a flood of tears. he later broke down in tears when rehearsing his speech, the one he was going to deliver to the house of cards. the following year on the death of king's mother, nicholson recorded, queen mary dies at 1020 and winston announces it in songs at 10:45. jane's son, the present
archbishop remembers him being in tears when he'll be visited number 10 as a boy. only yesterday i heard that winston church hill also use to cry when he would recite such as the lays of an comment rome. on july 1955 the oxford historian al rouse visited it. we talked about the zijing of the bismark, he recalled. he spoke effectingly of how bad it was to wake up in the morning and hear the news of a great british ship. what was the name of that ship, yes, the hood he said, tears in his eyes. in 1950s when sarah church hill reminded him how he told her back in 1922 she needed to grow up. i looked her up to him and to my surprise found his eyes wiped with tears.
church hill rang waiverly, ava anderson saw it earlier today to console her on the death of her second husband, john anderson and ended by shedding tears when discussing her first husband. at august, brendon died of e f esophagus cancer. he took up his seat in the house of commons. there are reports he went on hearing the news of president kennedy's assassination that he certainly did on his own birthday in 1964. the american journalist charles e frank who went to london to cover church hill's funeral two months later wrote of how many recall church hill himself of tears pride of humility, story
and photos were relished. they should be, they show an intensely emotional man, completely with the prevailing stiff upper lip. i would like to thank john for pointing out that church hill has even been recently diagnosed with the specific illness, known as pba be doctor of neurology in charlotte, north carolina. however as john points out that this condition could only have taken place after his stroke in 1953 when his specialist noticed the increase in the nationality in church hill. as we've seen, he was clearly profoundly emotional throughout his life. he felt things and expressed itself again and again. and if anyone here can think about the documented times he cried out, i would love to know i've been building up his file the last 20 years. and in that letter about the death of his brother officer
brown in -- he told his mother, i think a keen sense of necessity or in justice would make me sincere but i rarely detect genuine emotion in myself. all too often this has been taken at face value. i think, now, especially considering this sheer number of times that he cried, we can discard it. plenty of people get emotional at weddings and funerals. but church hill cried of those, but as well, also, at resignations, movies, the blitz, the sinking of the french fleet, holocaust and parades, and noble dogs struggling through the snow. he had the moral courage necessary to cry when all of his contemporaries were keeping stiff upper lips. there's nobody else who comes anywhere near the church and amongst his contemptist. as we can see, winston church
hill was a slaf to his emotions. because they were fine and honorable ones, this is something that we should -- we should applaud. the decision to fight on against the zwrer mans after dawn, it's not much emotional decision as anything. certainly it didn't seem to have much rationality as military decision at the time. we can be thankful that church hill wore his heart on the sleeve in the extraordinary way that he did. thank you very much. david tells me we have 15 minutes four q and a. it does not have to be about >> david tells me we've got 15 minutes for q and a, it doesn't haven't necessarily need to be just about this subject, whatever you like. john.
>> thank you for coming, a couple of assistance to you to me. to pick up on that last point of pvp. clearly, church hill was a very emotional man and laughed. but by the time he had had his first stroke in 1949 and in '53, the sense i get is that there were times when it was sort of unprovoked. you can understand circumstances of funeral when we're starting to tear up for the notion you walk into the front door and start tearing up, not necessary expect that. that's more of a feature of pbb, sort of palsy that, in fact, you can be emotional on top of that, the sort of times will be totally unexpected. >> how interesting, i haven't heard of him just crying for absolutely no reason whatsoever. i think all of the ones that i've been trying to track down do have an actual stimulus to them.
so if you -- if you can come up with examples of times that you -- he just cries, do tell me, i'll add them to this list. it will be medical expression for what the sign out for emotion to the actual tear ducts. but as i say, i've only been found outside stimulus for this. >> the rights of man, everything like that. and the battle of the republic on board the great ship. but i know that church was greatly effected when six months later the prince wells and
repulse was singapore and i was always told that influx of tears over that. >> thank you. that's really helpful. and, of course, if you cried over the sinking of the hood by bismark, then one can certainly understand and so many of the ships that we fault the second level with, have been put down admiralty, of course, so he knew these ships. he knew the man in them extraordinarily well. it makeser fekt sense if he cried when those two great ships were sunk in 1941. >> hi, andrew. wonderful, of course. i actually do really remember being one of our great pleasures was a -- sometimes it went wrong when the tracks went off. but grandpa pa definitely cried. he cried all sorts of films --
one of them lady hamilton. but the one, i particularly, we had many many times was city lights about the fly girl and charlie chapman was a great friend of his, too, he cried, i know, during that film. >> thank you very much. that's marvelous to know. anyone else. >> i have a question about an occasion when winston church hill should have cried and that was jefferson, his representative here in washington during world war ii. i don't know how many people in the audience know about, but he was church hill's representative on the joint chiefs of staff died here in november 1944 was given funeral here and buried in arlington, is the only member of another nation's military, i believe, who was buried in
arlington. church hill referred to his dilly dally, and i read about masters and commander was curious, if church hill ever really re-evaluated his opinion. >> yes, it's interesting question. i think one can expect him to cry if everyone dies. you know, it will hard on him to expect that, it strikes me. the burial plot of field marshall is one of the magnificent cemetery, of course, is magnificent. but any of you are going to visit it at all, do go to see sir john dill's grave. because it has a full scale e questions streeian statute of the marshall. it's in such extraordinary detail that the -- the medals
that are on his breast, you can tell the individual medals, including the ro sets that are placed on certain medals. this is in the most extraordinary kind of representation. so, yes, he did dilly dally because he wasn't impressed with the way in which he chaired the chiefs of staff. and that was why in december 1941 he swapped him with -- or at least he sent him off to america and brought in brook who he knew he would have lots of problems with and have lots of arguments with and boy did he, you only have to look to see that he did. and there are occasions when brook would sit in front of church hill in chiefs of staff meetings, breaking pencils in half, saying, no, i disagree with you prime minister.
must be very off putting to have a sort of tall strong angry break pencils in your face. but nonetheless, he appreciated that it was really important to have somebody who would say no to him. unlike so many politicians who would love to surround himself with yes, man. he surrounded himself with no man, knowing he would have to win the argument in order to get what was needed to be done, done. and that shows, i think, tremendous amount of morale courage. >> wonderful point how inston nev -- winston never said no. facing directly opposite where winston seats the three chiefs of staff and there was a great place in front of them, which
has never moved and e from queen victoria that defeat is not an option in this house and i think it sums up perfectly the position, the commanders could argue with him, but not over victory. >> i like the way this is turning into a church hill seminar. >> there have been reports that winston wept or dabbed his eyes when watching the film of the burning of dead bodies, after the destruction of dresden, of course he was followed by church
hill's note in which he questions the policy of the german cities at that time. of course there's a tremendous push back from harris. and i would be very interested to hear your comments about that. >> yes, the phrase that you're referring to is are we baess. which immense detail in my book. is highlighted as the sort of most outrageous act of the combined offensive. i do not see it in that way at all. i think it was necessary both to because the russians had asked us to do this and to smash the railway lines connecting east and west because they were moving men from the west to try to shore up their position on the east and front, the germans. the large numbers who died
there, the large be the fault of the light who unbeknownst to the british and americans have built know deep air shelters in dresden except for himself and his family. and many other factors that one can go into the creation the way in which it was killed some 20,000 people, which is nothing like, ladies and gentlemen, the 120,000 people, states, let alone stated at the time of the bombing. so, look, there are operational reasons for that, did it effect winston church hill, yes, of course. and there's something magnificent about that, to be able to cry over the enemies, as well as your own, i think shows universist that was mentioned yesterday by canvas, about the
way in which he was able to say in his speech -- if -- he would hopefully be fighting in the field immensely controversial thing to say. he went on saying the same kind of thing when he praised rummel, which was, you know, is a good general. it's not the kind of thing you hear during wars, but nonetheless, it showed that he has a capacity for largeness, for big statements and that, i think, was the reason that he cried over the deaths in dresden. the question, are we beast, it's a good one for him to have asked, but i don't believe that we were beast. i think the key thing was is that all of those men, harris, included, were desperate to end the second world war as soon as
possible and church hill is being advised as others, the way to do this was to destroy german capacity to produce. when you look at the -- i've actually gotten one of these grafts in my book, it goes up and up and up until other cities in 1943 and then it cuts off and it doesn't get down, as you wouldn't expect it to. it looks that expo nenl kind of trajectory that it had up until that point. and so i think church hill comes out very well, indeed, from that. >> one more question, whoever get it is mike first, i think, basically. >> thank you. you have an ensiclowe -- enshy
clowe peadic -- people who had a little bit more of display of this kind of emotion. >> i think it would be helpful in your presidential election at the moment, for the candidates to cry, rather than the whole of the rest of the nation. with regard to as being a man who would be moved to tears. he was profoundly emotional man and he cried a lot. otherwise, it not a trade off and founding in great leaders and so i thought that was the
reason that it would be worthwhile to collect these examples that would be happening, and thank you very much indeed, randolph and allen for coming out with a few extra ones. ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much indeed. >> i think we can safely say it was not in the vocabulary of anyone in the room today. it has become a permanent addition. we'll have the second break of the morning and we will reconvene promptly at 11:45 with our last speaker. thank you.
10:35 american artifacts. at 11:15 p.m., world war ii veterans stories. coming up friday morning afghanistan and iraq veteran will join us. they'll talk about their military experiences and their transition back to civilian life. also, health care journalists and arthur of suzanne will be on to talk about issues facing veterans. be sure to watch washington journal live at 7 eastern friday morning.
join the discussion. >> fort knox was chosen because of america's most location. it was the depository, there have been lots of gold already transferred there. and so secretary of the treasury, henry morgan, gives permission to use a portion of the depository for these documents. >> sunday night on q and a, arthur talks about the decision to move america's most important historical documents to fort knox on december 26th, 1941. >> has to make a decision, what documents are going to be there.
the original engrossed declaration, the original engrossed constitution indefinitely. the articles of federation preconstitution, for sure. the gettisburg address considered critical. he makes this decision very methodically, i think, on what's going to go to fort knox. these are considered the most valuable documents in the country. and it's he's been asked to preserve for the break. >> sunday night on q and a. >> chris was born in washington,
d.c. but grew up in wisconsin where he earned all of his degrees at the university of wisconsin, including his first degree in political science. so i'm happy to welcome him as a fellow political scientists. if you want to know about things as trans atlantic ocean liners, the history of commercial aviation, military communications, including i dare say heel og gra fi and other kind of things i can recommend his more than two dozen books to you. but for many years, he's has a great interest in winston church hill. and as someone who enjoys all of church hill's books and also books about church hill, i can recommend, especially, chris sterling's book reviews and finest hour to you, which are
wonderful for distinguishing between books that must be read and books that one ought not to read. he's, of course, been a working journalist. he was a professor and then, for a while, on the dark side, even a dean at the george washington university. and in all of these years of the church hill center, now, again, the ics endeavors to establish a permanent home in washington was a great friend of this effort, which is now coming to fruition today. so i'm delighted to introduce chris sterling to talk on church hill in washington. >> thank you, jim, i sent to david last night, what had i done wrong. how had i made him unhappy.
way to get across the atlantic prior to the end of the war we have plenty of landing space for land aircraft which are easier to maintain. church hill, in fact, took a round trip ong one of those when it was incredibly rare to fly one way across the atlantic, let alone both ways by the time he was done. so over six decades he came to the united states 16 times half of those 13 trips came after the well-known world war ii trip.
very first one was in 1,900. he came as a young man and yet even so thanks to the fact that he had good social connections he was 25-26 and he gets to meet the president. it starts something that builds over time the next trip is 1929 and that's the longest gap in this whole series. he comes in 29. he had just left the chancellor ship. he was traveling as a