tv History Bookshelf Hal Vaughan FD Rs Twelve Apostles CSPAN November 4, 2017 4:00pm-5:06pm EDT
p.m. eastern on book tv. and on sunday at 2:00 p.m. on american history tv on c-span3. workingan cities tour, with our cable partners as we explore america. announcer: this year marks the 75th anniversary of the british and american invasion of french north africa, known as operation torch. hal on history bookshelf, vaughan talks about his book, "fdr's 12 apostles: the spies who paved the way for the invasion of north africa." menells the story of 12 appointed by president roosevelt in 1940 as vice counsel to north africa. they helped prepare for the 1942 joint british and algeria. this was recorded at r.j. julia booksellers in 2006. it is about one hour.
evening.od welcome to r.j. julia booksellers. i work here at the store. and i did not write this book. and if you are in the right place, this is what we will be talking about and hearing about from hal vaughan. i have a few things to say about the way the evening might progress. if you are going to be seeking, asking a question later, be sure that you get the microphone before you start speaking into thin air for us tonight. and also hal vaughan will be signing his books, and this is his wonderful book. i've read almost all of it. i really love it. it's very easy to read and i don't mean that in a disparaging way. but you know one might think , this is heavy going. and actually, i found some of it
sort of dishy. [laughter] jealous.was actually i thought he's a really dishy man. there's a lot behind the scenes of this book that i hope he will share with us. but maybe he really can't. but spying is always wonderful fun. and he has been a diplomat, of course a journalist screen , writer. his book flap says he's now living in paris. he still lives in paris, what a lucky man. he made it here tonight on time, which a lot of people who live here never do. it is wonderful. all is great. i know he's going to talk for half an hour, maybe 45 minutes. we do encourage questions and answers. we encourge your questions and we encourage some answers. and also to remind you to step into the other room to talk with hal, mr. vaughan. mr. hal. [laughter]
wendy: oui. and that would be wonderful, because he'll be in that book signing books, not in here. [indiscernible] wendy: that is true. i thought i might've mentioned it before. we are being filmed this evening by c-span, c-span books, just to let you know. so if you want to change your seat and be anonymous, we have a place over here for you. otherwise, enjoy the show. [applause] wendy is marvelous. i think she should do this show tonight. [laughter] have my formal opening now, so thank you for joining me here tonight and many thanks to r.j. julia booksellers for the
invitation. i want to tell you that i'm impressed with the book store. my only wish as i leave here, as i arrived and leave here, that there would be hundreds of book stores like this throughout the united states. i also want to thank my editor, rob kirkpatrick who is sitting back there -- [applause] hal: for being here tonight. and i want to give a special thanks to ed and his marvelous have helpedth who spotsr some very tough over the years. last but not least, i want to thank diane lewis who has helped me organize a trip to the united states. i spoke in greenwich the other night. i had 46 people. and i had the privilege of spending 45 minutes with them after, answering questions. they were all wonderfully
interested and and up-to-date audience. and i hope if you have the time and you want to spend it, i would be glad to stay here as long as you want and answer questions. in any case i'd like to tell you , about "fdr's 12 apostles," who 12 orthodox and ivy league americans. they were america's first world war ii spies. they were lead by adventurous 4 46-year-old diplomat. and later he was the u.s. -- at france. and a year later that will be important. his name was robert daniel murphy. he spoke fluent french and german. in 1940, before pearl harbor, he reported directly and only to president franklin roosevelt. therefore, bypassing his home office, the state department. and as an aside, you might be
interested to know that no records were ever kept of the conversations and meetings between murphy and roosevelt, as roosevelt began to plot the invasion of north africa. it is important to understand that despite public policy to stay out of europe's wars, president roosevelt had already decided in 1940, to somehow bring america into the war mussolini,ler and and pull the controlled north africa, that is aldperria, morocco, out of that orbit and into the allied camp. eventually the planned invasion, because it was planned, both both american and british would be called operation torch. it turned out to be a very violent and very bloody degrees -- dresser hershel for the invasion of sicily, italy and the storming of the enormity beaches of france and torch was 90 44.
lead by unknown american and he wasled ike, of course general eisenhower who would lead the allied forces against hitler's forces two years later. so tonight i invite you to cast , your minds back some 60 years or so, to a time before pearl harbor. the u.s. great depression is winding down and roosevelt is seeking an unprecedented fourth term and robert murphy is established as the u.s. consul general in the city of algiers. his 12 apostles, a handful of men from the os organization, are surgically -- strategically posted throughout the exotic lands of algeria, morocco and tunisia. it's a time when spying was considered a very dirty business. gentlemen did not read other gentlemen's mail and diplomats did not engage in spying. the stage is set, therefore, the
actors are in place. and who were these apostles? x-cartecluded an e jewelry sells men and wine merchant with a store on madison avenue, and from a family in france. a madcap harvard anthropologist, a coca-cola salesman, a parisian playboy that ran with ernest hemingway, and the last generation crowd in paris, a rather elizabethan adventure who had followed the french and u.s. army's in world war i, and a construction worker, a distinguished lawyer, and a banker, and finally an annapolis graduate who was also a hero of what were i. asy worked undercover, merchandise device councils that went around inspecting cargoes on ships carrying material aid,
food stuff to help north african arab population. and in so doing as an aside, , they counted every telephone pole, every war plane, every war ship, every military installation in algeria, morocco and tunisia. and they produced the kind of information that made it possible for the then department of the army to plan the invasion. and day by day, they built a network of french and arab spies working with british, french, and believe it or not, with polish clandestined operatives to help the united states in its war plan. they were soon entangled in a web of espionage and counter espionage, and were caught up with gestapo and italian agents, involved -- and they were also involved with a beautiful french lady who turned out to be a
double agent and double dealing mistress. to cap it all, they had on their payroll a homicidal french monk appropriately nicknamed "neck tie" because he has strangled a german officer -- it was not much fun for the german -- because he had strangled a german officer in a prison cell with a neck tie. it's amazing how bob murphy found time and energy to manage the secret work of this cocktail of characters. in his official role of representative, he was meant to carry out delicate negotiations with officials and military officers. all the while building a dissident secret organization that would serve eisenhower after the invasion. robert murphy was truly a man of all seasons. let me take you back now to a beautiful, clear night in november, more precisely, a few minutes before midnight on november 7, 1942.
american and british war ships -- approach,coast the coast of north africa is blacked out. all is ready. all is ready to launch the first allied amphibious invasion of world war ii, and it was a massive operation. and from the information that i had gleaned from the books that had been written about it, nobody knew what they were really involved in. bob murphy is about to play his best and finest role as a diplomat among warriors. if he fails, disaster. thousands of americans, british and french lives will be lost. we are at that -- this precise moment in the midtown apartment henri, the leader of a french dissident group. he is a man who is prepared to risk his life and life of his family to aid the american
landings. he has organized a secret resistance organization, mostly made up of young and algerrian resistance jewish fighters who on murphy's orders , will provoke an uprising in the city of algiers and attempt to seize strategic locations. the officials seize french military communication centers and the broadcasting studios. they want to free algeria from french fascist rule. they want to kill all of the germans they can. and they are fully aware of what has been going on in metropolitan france, how jews have been forced to wear yellow stars, how they have been deported somewhere somewhere , called no where. the stress is palpable. one can feel the tejses as he
-- feel the stress as he gathers his algiers team about him. cole, vice counsel l. pitman springs. kenneth pendar, harry wood drove and john boyd. murphy's other agents, and oss operatives are already at their posts, or at the mediterranean landing beaches near algiers, at where ike isnca, running the invasion from his -- from his central headquarters, which is located on the island of gibraltar. every nerve and every tendon of these men are stretched on tender hopes. most, like bob murphy, have not slept for days. they've been given a code word to speak so that the allied officers coming ashore in assault boats can be given pre-arranged recognition signals. they will need these officers inland to their targets.
the code word is "whiskey." the answer back is "soda." all is ready. where is the invasion? where are the advanced path finders? where are the para troopers? looking out at sea, all it dark. -- is dark. it's an ominous moment for murphy. he paces the crowded smoked , filled room of an apartment. all around him, men wait, preparing often antiquated weapons to attack the germans. they pray for the moment when they can occupy the key french post in algeria, fight for freedom. suddenly from below the apartment on the street, a look out signals, a watchman in the apartment above. an algiers police officer is entering the building. everything is silent.
the doorbell rings and the grinning doctor admits the officer with a handshake and a pistol to his head. he is swiftly bound and gagged and thrust into the bathroom where he will spend the rest of the night. the minutes tick by, it is well after midnight. murphy is at the end of his rope . the the last few weeks have been a living hell for him. nothing has gone right. certainly not the french partisans, who had sworn to help him raise an insurrection. now he has learned that aside from that group, most of the dissident groups in north africa have faded away. at the last moment, they fear retribution for their families, and they doubt american resolve. the promised arms and mennitions to arm these have failed to arrive. the british have let mike down. and murphy finds that the communication systems linking north africa with eisenhower's
,eadquarters at gibraltar rudimentary at best, have also broken down. and more ominous news arrives. the office of the u.s. general in casa blanca has been raided by the french and the diplomatic staff has been carted away in buses. happily, dave king, one of murphy's top agents, has escaped. he's now riding around in a red cross ambulance, trying to pull together the small -- a small group of dissidents who company -- who can act to help the landings. murphy frets. his confidence fades. he now fears an impending disaster. french troops will shoot american boys on the landing beaches of morocco and algeria. american war ships at sea will return fire, killing frenchmen. he shutters to think that
french officials and senior officers, men who he has known and worked with for years will order their troops, war ships, war planes and coastal batteries to fire on the american fleet before he can negotiate a seize -- a cease-fire. then suddenly, the day seems won. kenpender, one of his apostles strides into the room. , a smile covers his handsome face. he nods to murphy. the corners of his eyes are inflamed from lack of sleep. he clears his throat. bob, he says, bbc has just announced, robert will arrive on time. the room goes silent. murphy knows that the code words , robert on time, signals that u.s. and british invasion fleet, with some 100,000 american and british troops men who already
, have already sailed from glasgow and the midlands in the united kingdom, and mostly national guardsman who left their homes in minnesota and ohio will now land on north , african beaches on time and as planned. murphy swings into action, revitalized by the news. to hell with sleep, now is the time for dramatic action. he orders an official french by kenne and followed pemder in murphy's old buck car, -- buick car, he rushes to break the news to french officials. men who have been his friends and colleagues for years, now his potential allies. indeed, perhaps if his mission foes. his he will go now and tell the general that the day of truth has arrived. american troops are landing on french soil to free french north africa. to begin liberating france from
fascists and nazi domination. now begins a comic opera. high above algiers. and murphy reaches the villa, followed by ken and a bodyguard. in the official french limousine decked with french flags, the through by theed guards. pender and his partisans weight in the garden as murphy bounds up the stairs to see the general. it is nearing 1:00. but murphy still has no word of the allied assault forces. there are no sounds of battle. he describes the moment, after convincing a servant to wake the general. he came down the drawing room in
pajamas, silent and sleepy, but my news snapped him awake. i told him as calmly as i could, and american force was about to land on the coast of north africa. according to my instructions, i multiplied the size of our troops and made no mention of british components. the french hated the british. indeed, that night murphy was to use all his powers of persuasion and tell the general. general, i tell you about this in advance because our talks over the years have convinced me that you desire to see liberation of france, which can only come about through cooperation with the united states. the general is taken back. what is this? you mean that's the convoys of yesterday in the mediterranean are not going to malta?
they will land here in north africa? you told me only a week ago that the united states would never attack us. it was true. murphy had deceived the man, a friend of america. but he then tried to assure the general that the american expeditionary force was not coming to attack the french, it was arriving at french invitation and to cooperate in the liberation of france. the general asks but who gave , such an invitation? murphy replies, general --, he will be general eisenhower's french governor. we expect him momentarily. the general begins to walk up and down, stopping now and then to express vehement regrets that he had not been consulted sooner. after a few more minutes of pacing the floor, he ventures, if the matter were entirely in my hands, i would be with you of course, but the admiral is in
algiers and he outranks me. no matter what decision i could make, he would immediately overruled it. -- overrule it. murphy doesn't hesitate. very well, let's go and talk to him. meanwhile outside, pender's bodyguard has swelled to 40 partisan fighters, and they are led by one of the doctor's senior men. the man, now convinces the guards that they are relieved of duty. the villa is not in the hands of the partisans. but inside, neither the general nor murphy know of this switch. and within minutes, the admiral by accident arrives with his , chief of staff and another group of officers. 19 months have passed since darlan and murphy have met face-to-face. the admiral listens intently as
murphy announces the torch landings. he repeats the plea to the general. at 61, the anglophobic, the tough napoleonic character becomes furious. his face turns purple. he looks like a ripe eggplant. he shouts to murphy, it is another one of your filthy tricks that you have anglo-saxons have abused us for two years. marshall.ers from the i will execute them, since you want to fight we will fight. darlan turns the screw -- i have known for a long time that the british are stupid, but i have always believed that
americans are intelligent. apparently, you have the same genius as the british for making massive plunders. in fact, darlan, whom the americans called popeye, did not know if murphy was bluffing. he believed that the allied action would only be a commando raid by british units. and it would trigger a massive german response. darlan needs time. he needs to know if this is a serious and massive allied invasion. and he needs to study the consequences this would be for france. he suspects they would be devastating. the germans will attack in north africa. the area.s will seize they will invade the unoccupied zone of france. and the french fleet will be lost to the nazis.
much is at stakes. darlan stalls. he tells them, i have given my oath -- i cannot revoke this now. the premature action is not all of what we have been hoping for. murphy shoots back, french blood senselessly to the american landings, which are already in progress and massive. darlan falls silent. finally after whispered consultation, they tell murphy, they could cooperate only with approval. and darlan now drafts a message to be wired to him to his french quarters, at the admiralty located only a few minutes away on the alger -- on the algiers waterfront. murphy tends from the drama and lack of sleep is beginning to
wilt. at this point, darlan needs fresh air. he leaves the villa and walks into the villa garden and he's shocked to see what he finds. his home, the official residence of the french governor, is now surrounded by partisans. the doctor's men have struck. darlan rushes back to murphy. are we prisoners? murphy is aghast. and among these men as a 20-year-old french patriot, ferdinand, who will alter history in four weeks time, for he will murder the admiral, the very man murphy is negotiating with. general eisenhower, in a week's time, will appoint as u.s. counsel for north africa. but now at the moment darlan is , outraged. the partisans refuse to allow anyone but the u.s. counsel office to leave the property. he and murphy pace back and forth. murphy insisting that he knew nothing about the seizure.
he explains the deal that general eisenhower in gibraltar has made with the french general. he pressed rates -- he persuades, cajoles, and insists that this is the moment to strike an effective blow to the liberation of france. american and french blood must be spared. the pair make a comic sight. the little admiral puffing his pipe, fiddling with his tobacco pouch, glancing up at murphy, barely reaching murphy's shoulder and finally agreeing, the apostle could go to dispassion --to dispatch the message. pender now rushes off in his 1936 buick. he drives straight to the apartment, where murphy's apostle, john boyd, steams open darlan's sealed envelope. they're not surprised to read that the old admiral has written a handwritten message that
assures them that darlan, his man in north africa, will defend the empire. he will fight. the message, needless to say, is never delivered to the admiral. as time slips by, murphy is beyond being anxious. it is well after 3:00 in the morning. murphy has no news. but a few miles away, and unbeknownst to anybody in the firing 7.5ch cannons inch guns have been trying to save allied transports offshore. and the u.s. and british assault teams are 12 miles east of algiers. west of the city, the commando units are now moving in towards algiers city, but algiers is not yet relieved, and
will not be for some hours. and in the hours that followed the assault forces become , hopelessly lost. a tough french resistance halted their advance on the city. it is becoming an orgy of disorder, and it is to rage around algiers and iran for hours to come. indeed, the next three days will bring what general george patton will call, moments of blood and moments of steel. at the villa, murphy can only desperately wait for some sign that american troops have arrived in force. the moments are engraved in his memory. the hours dragged by and still i the hours straight by and still i had no word. i had gotten very little sleep a few days. i had made a terrible mistake. a mistake of starting the
invasion a day earlier. something had gone terribly wrong. murphy remembers as i was becoming more intense it became more relaxed. we sat down and had a passionate discussion about the possibility of force. i told the admiral entire story of how we had arranged matters with algiers. with the imageable french way he shook his head saying positively he is that your man. he is a child. he is a good infantry commander and nothing more. later murphy would say he was right. his analysis proved to be correct. 6:00 p.m. fourr hours after american troops are due to land in algiers. said they heard
excited voices outside and i realized the partisans had been overpowered by a group of state police. garden i went out to the just as 50 guards equipped with submachine guns rushed the palace. i was taken into custody with a gun posted to my back and unceremoniously held together with my agent into a pavilion that served as a guardhouse. it was guarded by senegalese soldiers. and offered ashot cigarette. indeed ladies and gentlemen, the french guard would say in the theysion of the moment thought murphy was a german agent. turned, heles have orders new guards to take them
to the admiralty with a message. a meeting at the french military headquarters. now in command he will try to unravel the events of the night. murphy istes later freed. he is unable to unwind. with the embarrassing situation. back withe king comes another agent from the villa with a total of scotch whiskey, a change of close and a shaving kit. it is well after dawn. over breakfast murphy mentions that by now he must have received a message from president roosevelt. alreadyhe bbc will have been broadcasting the message to all of france.
assistant has a leaflet bearing the printed words will be dropping all over north africa. the two men hope for a positive word from the old marshall. from the old marshall saying i will cooperate. theknownst to murphy and french general in message had already been sent earlier alerting french naval headquarters. he knew hours ago of the invasion. would soon order french forces to fight and fight to the death. morning nearsame , johns city a general all themselves down a
landing at an end to a small craft alongside the ship. they had towards the beach guide them towards the area he had been swimming only a few weeks before. the sea is calm and they jump into the waters and trench to a beach command post. on oney out of the blue splendid morning a french general miraculously stumbles across those two. he immediately advises the general that he commands a large and substantial beachhead where the americans can land without resistance. his friend and companion arrive in a counselor car from algiers. the four men have a quick reunion and that his colleague is brought to his side. generaltedly asked the
if he is able to talk for a cease-fire or truce. knox tells how the french defenders will die and the casualties will be happy if something is not done. morning -- far away adolf hitler is on his way to a old beer hall hawks. he is awakened from a deep and drug-induced sleep. the german general staff new that allied convoys have slipped through. with the widespread landings of american forces in africa. despite the losses by rommel that every week -- that very week german forces were ordered to invade africa.
this scene is set for a bloody conflict that would last for weeks. for the first time in the history of american-french relations frenchman kill american troops. americans will kill frenchman. thank you. i would love to have your questions. [applause] you, would you kindly wait until you wait for the nice lady with the microphone so that your question will be recorded on television for c-span. >> the invasion was set all the way back when roosevelt and churchill met in newfoundland? >> it was certainly discuss there, yes. it was certainly discussed on the british warship that company metd his
with churchill. that is a long time before we were in the war. enough, if you remember with murphy's conversation he made it clear exactly what murphy is to do. this is before pearl harbor. we are talking about november 1940 when murphy first goes to algiers to do a quick survey. he knows absolutely what his job is going to be. it will be to come back to washington and tell roosevelt what he has found. he knows he will go back and he is going to go back permanently as the special representative to north africa. report back to the state department.
the state department is absolutely cut out of this. they did not even know the invasion was going to take place. until it took place. good question though. you are closer to this gentleman, i will get to you after. >> how were the apostles recruited? with a friends or acquaintances of his or were they people that were sent to him? >> they were>> neither. about the moment, you have a situation where hibbler has taken completely over europe. calling everyone in the war and navy department. they say we want to get into this. they are not content to stay home or be drafted.
they want to get into the fight. they have all been educated in france, some of them had just returned from france. out beforeged to get the occupation. theirent about contacting people that they'd knew. many of them have been world war i veterans. formedlly the group was sent bytually they were lisbon andper to there is a whole chapter about how they make their way to casablanca. algiers oranca on to wherever. communication was incredible.
they flew in planes with plexiglass windows and were drawn down, they flew in terrible windstorms, just getting there. not only was the communication by plane or train or ship terrible the communications system was terrible. murphy communicated with the white house by code. what he would do as he would write out his message to be sent and that would be decoded by one of the apostles who had the code. that a messenger would take the thing to the telegraph post office where it was then transmitted by telegraph on a tape to washington. through a relay station. the germans of course all this and they have broken our code. murphy's code, they knew everything he sent
back to washington. they were also tapping his phone , the italians were tapping his phone and the french were to his phone. i have come across the record of wheniretap that took place charles de gaulle took over. murphy stayed on for one year and a half read. they had his phone. the german chancellor heard it. that is incredible. they knew everything he said. >> can you tell us a little bit about the convoy where it they originated and how they were able to slip into the mediterranean. halfewest or folk to an a weeks before the landing. frankly it is impossible to can this sketched
this whole thing was. regular army,ot they had the national guard troops who had been playing around with enfield rifles from world war i. was alerted and a battalion was alerted there. were thrown down to virginia where they were supposedly briefed on their mission. the officers were at least, god knows what the troops did. not even know what they were going, they were stuck on all these ships. they were just broken down freighters. that is the american contingent. the second contingent lasted from glasgow and from other english ports. across intodown spain and then got to the strait of gibraltar. you had one group on the
folktic route from nor which would into morocco and landed at three places in morocco. troop, theitish that thever knew british were involved in the invasion. it would have been a lot more bloody and lasted a lot longer had they known that the british equation.of the destroyed ahad just bunch of the french fleet approximately nine months earlier. they were worried that the french fleet would somehow be used against them or by the germans. they destroyed this fleet and had literally thousands of
french soldiers who were killed. they did not know. and slippedme down through gibraltar at night. there was a whole plan put up by british intelligence to deceive the germans about the mediterranean landed. the germans and the french are absolutely convinced that the landed would not take place in north africa. having thought the landings -- had they known the landings would take place it would have been terrible. the germans put troops into tunisia. been a terrible terrible fight. the british of course were better trained. thought the war on the continent for a few months. the american troops had no training whatsoever.
>> how did you go about doing your research such that you were able to understand the various thought process? >> i was extremely lucky with the story itself. mission was one of the apostles. i did not know that at the time. justyears later when i was tossing this idea around in my head, i thought by chance if i came up with a book that came out in paris. a book that was called shakespeare. i came across a little volume in that was about roosevelt. and found myp chief of mission in caracas 10 years earlier. brussels the american
-- american ambassador to brussels. i called him up and said were you a spy? he is a incredible character. he was a vices counsel. indeed he refused to go. -- later led him to go into the cia. he thought to the entire campaign in italy. anyway, i called him a spy and he got angry at me. we talked and then i met him later and paris when he gave me his unpublished memoirs. subsequently, little by little with the help of a research assistant i was able to contact through the oss webwork i was able to contact other apostles.
i ended up with seven unpublished memoirs and i was extremely lucky -- knock on wood is really not just the product of my research and the archives of washington and london and in paris. that is why i can be so specific because i have their memoirs, i have what they wrote about what was happening. in two cases the memoirs come from diaries which i have. >> a question in regard to the roosevelt-murphy relationship. how did he know him well enough to get in touch? >> murphy went to being the political counselor in paris after the occupation when our embassy was closed down. we had one man there. murphy was then take up by the
state department. with the newo work government set up by marshall. there, he wrote a whole series of reports, one of the reports together with the needle at cachet was about north africa. how he felt if there was any place in france -- french north fight who would want to he thought the information he had that the french in north africa would fight if america would arm them. there was never any consideration of a invasion. that we canto have arm these people, we could try send theem to agree to
fleet to north africa. we can fight from there. he would perhaps stay in france and try to hold the fort. occupy the germans would the unoccupied portion of france. they thought there could be a chance. rommel's sweeping east. this is of course a plan andosed to churchill roosevelt. interestingly enough, to digress for a moment. marshall is opposed to the invasion of africa. he believes we should harbor our resources at this time. french troops who are
there, they say if you land in france we will fight with you. there is no doubt about that. if you land in north africa we don't stand a chance because the germans will take all of france. troops they have already in the desert can quickly come back and we will have a disaster. we fought the germans and the italians in tunisia essentially. it was a terrible bloody battle. this is where marshall was wrong. this is where we produced a army where we formed the men that were capable of invading sicily, italy and of eventually the beaches of north africa.
>> how did the french view their role in world war ii? i know that is a complicated question. >> that is a very complicated and complex issue. let me approach it this way. there is a wonderful author who youou are interested in must read him. he wrote a book about the french and he also wrote a whole series of books about the jews in france. this book came out about 20 years ago. it was translated into french, 20 years ago. all of the sudden the french went well, we did all this? he had gotten into the archives what thed up all of
french political system was like. how they collaborated with the germans and the french historians had not touch that. they could not get to it or did not want to get to it. nobody politically -- it was not the right thing to do. whole idea ofthe what it was like after he had been tried and put into a home until he died. the french did not want to hear about it. , to try and answer your question, he brings all of this up. later you 20 years are beginning to see books and magazine articles, a lot of discussion about the poor performance of france. it is totally, absolutely clear
what he had in mind was to try and create a new order for europe. that new order would think offering with the germans. there you are. maybe that would push the question a little further. it is a fascinating story. fascinating how terrible things could go. >> a two-part question. fence role inree all of this? with the aftermath of the landings. the second part of the question is, how do the french look back on this fact that there was a armed conflict between soldiers and the u.s. in the north african stage? >> the answer to the first
question, charles de gaulle played no part in the north africa invasion. he did not know it was going on. churchill did not tell him. withd a relationship germany on and off. he was a extraordinary man. he was also a extremely difficult character. he was absolutely persona non grata. navy -- 20 or 30 islandsking the little near newfoundland. when he did this roosevelt wanted to know what he was doing in the french islands. we wanted to put canadian troops there. they never even talked to us. the whole white house and that if theyn knew
had their way to rose to have gotten a nickel. it is not until after north africa that he is able to prove bothree french movement outside of france and inside of itnce and most importantly would be a real asset to the allies. without the french forces of the interior. that is to say the resistance movement in france, the l.a. casualties would have been considerably more. as to the other part of it they totally ignored north africa. all they know is that it could slip out of their grasp sometime
new the algerian revolution. their oil ande what have you they come in and sweep the streets. they really would like north africa to go away. as a french student looking back on this episode, they would see the role of the generals in north africa as patriots, traders -- or traders? >> urgently as traders. he was promoted to be the governor of north africa. the purpose of which is to bring the french forces together and fight alongside the americans to go after german troops in tunisia. he is pushed aside. the americansn realize he is worthless.
he has no connection. people do not respect him. places because the is a traitor. assassinated by the young resistance fighters. he is assassinated. as far as the french viewing this. there have been a love of books written about this from the french point of view. >> hearing about this very complicated spy initiative to pay for liberators, they naturally wanted the situations in iraq. i was wondering if you could compare and contrast the operation torch versus the planning for the iraqi situation.
>> i don't want to get into a political conflict here. i hope you enjoy my book. let me say this. concede how anybody could imagine that a judeo-christian society. can go from one of the oldest is jewish and -- civilizations and the world in the samaria where where they are and hope that we could and go backacy generations and generations of fighting colonials.
remember what they did to the british. they kick them out. as far as weapons of weapons of mass destruction. i am happyall agree to stay as long as you want. to -- is going to want any more questions? was the menu spoke of the man who never was? >> there was one like it. it was used in the north africa invasion. it was not that. the man who never was which is a wonderful film. ofwas used for the invasion sicily. >> i had one other question.
inis no big deal to see ships go through gibraltar, it is not that wide. i am always amazed they were able to go through their without them knowing it. >> that is a very good point. , the british were extraordinary lucky. the british were always running convoys. from england down the coast of because they were supporting their african basis. they did not slip 20 ships and whenthey regrouped you examine those convoys with
massive amounts of people how the germans were actually -- the therature i have read that german military intelligence organization kept telling them that you don't know what you are talking about trading that is not in the plan. thank you very much for being here. [applause] quacks on history bookshelf here from the country's best-known history of writers of the past decade to every saturday at 4:00 a.m. eastern egg you can watch any of our programs at any time. visit our website at c-span.org/history. you are watching american
history tv all weekend every weekend on c-span history. >> sunday night on q&a. prize-winning biographer and author of alexander hamilton run churn out and his new book on ulysses s. grant. >> hamilton was young and dashing and romantic. in a way he was the perfect leading man for a musical. moves through a very different kind of that she was playing and a comic. was he hada of grant no charisma. dramatic in situations. but heot as fascinating is no less deep than hamilton. he was a very subtle character.
george washington had a similar kind of reserve and enigmatic quality to grant. >> sunday night at 8:00 p.m. eastern on q&a. >> tonight on lectures in history jeffrey morrison teaches a class on the role of religion and the american revolution. exploring the meaning of words and phrases in the declaration of independence. here is a preview. >> if anyone knew what the revolution was about other than john adams it was george washington who risked everything. entire nightt the and a half years in mount vernon. war thend of the calvinists and the establishment
of civil and religious liberty was important. ?hy did i fight it not just for civil liberty. not just a that i would be taxed i thought for a principal and i thought for religious liberty. civil and religious liberty, they always went together in the minds of the american revolutionaries. it was not just the spread of in will waysiment did religion affect the culture. that it was absolutely certain the revolution is a religious war. >> watch the entire program at 8:00 p.m. and midnight eastern tonight on lectures and history. only on c-span3.
>> coming up next on the 34th annual winston churchill a other -- congress talks about the former prime minister's career as a historian and his six volume book it erred in a nobel prize in literature in 1953. this is about 50 minutes. >> ladies and gentlemen. we had year's conference a presentation by andrew roberts. we know a winning formula when we see one. to introduce andrew. [applause] quick hello. brief toep my remarks maximize the amount of time we have to nf