tv HUD Secretary Ben Carson Testifies on Housing Policies CSPAN July 2, 2019 4:28pm-8:01pm EDT
most important day of the 20th century. the first americans had arrived in france. why do you think d-day was the most important day of the 20th century? >> because it led to a europe you see today. led to the restoration of civilization, human rights of democracy, of peace, in western europe. it was the foundation of atlantasism. that's been the most important relationship in modern world history. and it led to the freedom of millions and millions of europeans in western europe. 19 million civilians died in europe in world war ii, when americans and british and french and canadians landed on d-day, june the 6th, 1944, it gave countless americans hope that barbarism and the rule of naziism, that that terrible, terrible genocide and oppression would finally end. >> and you can watch the entire conversation with historian alex
kershaw tonight starting at 8:00 eastern along with mary louise roberts on her book, "d-day through french eyes: normdy 1944" which looks at the invasion's impact and its aftermath on france. the d-day invasion, tonight here on c-span3. there has been discussion about an appearance before congress. any testimony from this office would not go beyond our report. it contains our findings and analysis and the reasons for the decisions we made. we chose those words carefully and the work speaks for itself. and the report is my testimony. i would not provide information beyond that which is already public in any appearance before congress. >> former special counsel robert mueller is set to appear before two committees of congress. the house judiciary committee and the house intelligence committee on wednesday july 17th at 9:00 a.m. eastern. he'll testify in open session
about his report into russian interference in the 2016 election. watch live coverage on c-span3, online at c-span.org, or listen with the free c-span radio app. housing and urban development secretary ben carson testified before the house financial services committee on housing issues and his department's policies. committee members asked about affordable housing programs, the government's handling of mixed immigration status households, low-income housing in rural areas and the department's lawsuit against facebook over allegations of housing discrimination in their ads.
>> meets will come to order. thank you for your patience, mr. secretary, we were just working out how we were going to proceed today. we have a classified briefing that's extremely important that will be called about 1:30 so we're not sure how long it's going to go. if it goes beyond an hour, we will come back and we will relieve you. if you're prepared to go. we will not ask you to stay beyond one hour. if it is over in one hour, we'll come back and we'll continue with the hearing, otherwise, we will let you know and you can make a decision. is that understood by everybody?
thank you very much. without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess of the committee at any time. today's hearing is entitled "housing in america: oversight of the united states department of housing and urban development." i now recognize myself for four minutes to give an opening statement. today this committee convenes for a hearing to conduct oversight over the united states department of housing and urban development. our sole witness is dr. benjamin carson. the trump administration's hud secretary. i am very concerned about secretary carson's actions leading hud. specifically, under his leadership, hud has put forth an outrageous plan that would triple rent for the lowest income households and put 1.7 million americans at risk of eviction and homelessness at a time we were in the midst of a national homelessness and housing affordability crisis.
his most recent proposed budget would cut hud funding by 18%. that budget proposal includes the elimination of new funding for the national housing trust fund and capital magnet fund. essential programs in place to increase the supply of affordable housing. as i've said before, what we need is a real investment in affordable housing programs, not sense list budget cuts. under secretary carson's leadership, hud diminished and compromised fair housing protections. secretary carson has halted the implementation of hud's affirmatively furthering fair housing rule which is in part a rule finalized by the obama administration that provides communities with greater clarity on how to help break down residential segregation and barriers to fair housing opportunity. i'm also concerned by the reports about delays in disaster
recovery funds reaching puerto rico and delays in a hud office of the inspector general. inquiry into the matter due to a lo lack of timely cooperation by hud. i was also very troubled by secretary carson's recent cruel proposal to terminate housing benefits for families that include individuals with mixed immigration statuses. of course, existing law prevents programs from subsidizing individuals with ineligible immigration status. prorated rental assistance allows mixed immigration status families to remain together while exclusively subsidizing only those family members with eligible status. the trump administration proposal puts mixed status families at risk of being evicted, separated and left homeless. secretary carson, across the board, these actions are
inconsistent with hud's mission. instead of helping the hardworking americans and vulnerable families, the agency is in place to serve. the trump administration is actively causing harm, striving to make housing less available, affordable, and fair. today, you will face some tough questions about your leadership decisions and mismanagement of the agency. the chair now recognizes the ranking member of the committee, gentleman from north carolina, mr. mchenry, for five minutes for an opening statement. >> thank you, chairwoman waters. thank you, secretary carson. thank you for your service and to the american people and our government. and so hud was created more than 50 years ago by president lyndon johnson who intended the new agency to be a major tool in combatting poverty. rebuilding our cities. and making housing more affordable for all. to that end, hud is involved in several programs including federal, public and indian
housi housing efforts. fair housing and equal opportunity investment. securitization of federally guaranteed mortgages. and more recently disaster recovery efforts. yet hud also finds itself at a crossroads. it must meet the 21st century expectations of the american people in a 20th century framework with 19th century technology. this is not a recipe for success. secretary carson did what dr. carson has done countless times before. while he was a surgeon. he rolled up his sleeves and set to work to find things no matter how big the challenge. and there have been challenges. he has implemented reforms to reduce fraud and abuse in how we finance mortgage mortgages. he reversed a decade-long trend by once again hiring a chief financial officer for hud to protect taxpayers and combat
wasteful spending. hud also stood up for housing when it filed suit in 2018 against the new york city housing authority for routinely and flagrantly failing to uphold its legal obligations under the fair housing act of 1937. until hud stepped in, the new york city housing authority put real people in harm's way. serious harm's way. and then repeatedly misled hud about its wrongdoings. he also took the fight against housing discrimination into the 21st century by scrutinizing digital ads that may have violated the fair housing act and were modern-day efforts at redlining. additionally, secretary carson has worked to promote the private/public partnership model of advancing social and economic prosperity for all americans by chairing the interagency white
house opportunity and revitalization council which works to help distressed communitiies stimulate development and entrepreneurship through new tools like opportunity zones. opportunity zones are a welcome addition in our tax code and are having an impact in our communities but will have a much stronger impact in the coming decades. i applaud secretary carson for his efforts to bring much-needed reform to the agency including modernizing old programs, violating -- updating regulation, knocking down barriers to individual and local investment as well. last week, i sent a letter to secretary carson urging his swift movement on several pending regulations. finalizing new rules that reflect topics like fair housing and disparate impact will go a long way to helping local communities and consumers. i welcome you finalizing those rules in a timely manner. the path to reform isn't always smooth. i think there are reasonable
questions regarding how hud communicates information and how it handled unprecedented amount of disaster aid it administer. i look forward to hearing the secretary's response to those questions in particular. like many other federal programs, we must recognize that housing in the 21st century is a partnership between federal, state, and local governments. one that needs to be collaborative for it to be successful. we must do our part to achieve bipartisan results, to help those that are homeless get in sustainable housing. we must do our part to modernize the federal footprint with changes in law. and the executive branch must do its part in changes to regulation to meet these challenges. as secretary carson has said, we must leverage outside public and private investment in addition to federal funds to meet our housing challenges. i concur. and i expect a modernized hud to lead the way toward the future. and with that, i yield back the balance of my time. >> thank you.
the chair now recognizes, the chair of the subcommittee on housing, community development, and insurance, mr. clay, for one minute. >> thank you, madam chair. as we mark the 51-year passage of the fair housing act, there's still much work to be done to promote and ensure fair housing in america. in fact, as i noted in a recent conversations, residents in my district, in the community of welston, missouri, are facing the prospect of dislocation and upheava upheaval. though we have had conversations, i want to make it clear for the record that i fully expect hud to follow through on any and all commitments made and work with my staff and me to ensure that the residents have access to affordable housing. and i hope that we can find a
solution such as a grant family development or usage of section 202 housing, and i stand at the ready to work with hud. and with that, madam chair, i yield back. >> thank you. i want to welcome to the committee our witness, dr. benjamin s. carson sr. the secretary of housing and urban development. served in his current position since 2017. mr. carson has testified before the committee on previous occasions and i do not believe he needs further introduction. without objection, your written statement will be made a part of the record. secretary carson, you're now recognized for five minutes to present your oral testimony. >> ranking member mchenry, and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss housing in america. let me begin with fair housing. in so many ways we can't consider our housing markets
healthy unless those markets are also fair. in today's interconnected electronic world, discrimination can take less obvious forms. that's why i initiated an investigation into facebook and two months ago charged facebook with violating the fair housing act by using its social media platform to encourage, enable, and cause housing discrimination. using a computer to limit a person's housing choices is just as discriminatory as slamming a door in someone's face. this year, hud is also placing a special focus on protecting the rights of individuals to feel safe and secure in their homes free from sexual harassment. turning to housing finance, hud oversees $1.4 trillion in federal housing administration mortgage insurance and more than $2 trillion in jennymay mortgage-backed security. considering hud's role in
supporting affordable and sustainable mortgage finance, it's essential that housing finance reform efforts take a comprehensive view of the marketplace. president trump recently signed a memorandum directing secretary mnuchin and myself to develop a housing finance reform plan. our plan will ensure that fha and jenny may assume primary responsibility for providing housing finance support to low and moderate income families who cannot be fulfilled through traditional journd wriunderwrit. in some markets, we're struggling against the strong headwinds of disaster. at the time i've been secretary at hud, this nation has experienced several major disasters. in response, president trump has signed into law critical emergency funding to support long-term recovery and directed hud to allocate these resources among the hardest hit states. hud has fully obligated
approximately $7.4 billion through our cdbgdr program. this money can be used today to help rebuild homes, restore businesses, and repair or replace damaged infrastructure. in addition, we have reviewed and approved state and territorial action plans for another $10 billion. recovering from a major disaster is never easy. i want to assure this committee that hud is doing everything we can to help every grante, accelerate the pace of recovery. no discussion of housing would be complete without discussing the absence of housing. homelessness continues to be a vexing problem in this country, but i'm encouraged to report to you that homelessness is not an intractable problem. as a nation, we've managed to cut veterans' homelessness in half since 2010. homelessness among families with children is down nearly 30%. and chronic homelessness is down more than 16%.
another area where i believe we can make a difference is ensuring that hud-assisted housing is decent, safe, and healthy. shortly after i took office, i ordered a wholesale re-examination of how the department conducts inspections of public housing as well as private housing under section 8 contract. and we're moving quickly to prevent carbon monoxide poisoning in hud-assisted housing. regrettably, there's currently no universal federal requirement that carbon monoxide detecters be installed in all hud-assisted housing. that's wrong. whether through regulation or legislation, it is our intention to require working carbon monoxide detecters in hud-assisted housing, whether state or local law requires it or not. and to assist phas with the purchase and installation of carbon monoxide detecters, hud is providing $5 million for this simple life-saving device.
finally, let me turn to something that is rather obvious to all of us. in many parts of our country, there is an affordable housing crisis. the federal government cannot solve this problem alone. let me tell you about a few things we are doing in hud to find a solution. to date, our rental assistance demonstration has preserved nearly 114,000 units of public housing and generated more than $7 billion in construction activity to revitalize these units or replace them all together. we're also very excited at the potential for up to $100 billion in capital investment and opportunity zones made possible by the tax reform spearheaded by president trump. and hud is proposing a new rule to ensure taxpayer-supported housing support those who are legally entitled to them. given the overwhelming demand for our programs, the law requires that we devote ourselves to legal residents who
have been waiting, some for many years, to access affordable housing. before i conclude, i want to thank the many members from both parties who have taken time to meet with me during the past two years and who are working every day to find common ground in support of safe, decent, and affordable housing. the work isn't easy, but nothing worthwhile ever is. thank you. >> thank you very much. i now recognize myself for five minutes for questions. on april 25th, 2018, you unveiled a proposal that would triple rents for the lowest income hud residents. previously, when you testified before this committee, i explained to you that your proposal, what it would mean for our low-income hud-assisted senior in my district. we would see an increase of
$1,015. this would be devastating for him. you demonstrated that you did not fully understand the impact of your proposal when you responded to my question by saying you did not think it was, quote, a typical situation, quote unquote. according to the center, the average rent increase for seniors under your proposal would be $83 or a 30% increase. dr. carson, we are currently experiencing an affordable housing crisis, but again this year, you proposed the same rent increases in hud's 2020 budget request. cannot understand why you would make a family choose between eating or staying housed. do you understand the impacts of your proposal, and do you continue to defend it? >> first of all, thank you for the work that you've done on behalf of the poor people in our
country. as far as our proposal is concerned, we're talking about increasing rent. people who pay the minimum rent and we've protected the elderly and the disabled to hold them completely harmless in that regard. people who pay $25, $50, a month have been asked to contribute more in order to help sustain the program. and also encourage them to go out and seek employment. we're talking about work-able people. we're not talking about people who have to take care of others or have young children. we're talking about people who have perfectly healthy bodies and have -- >> before you continue, mr. secretary, have you determined those who you're asking an increase, what their income is and where the money would come
from? are these people on fixed incomes? some of them? >> we have made a provision, a hardship provision, for anybody >> we have made provisions for anybody who cannot meet the income that wove asked for. but we've also -- this is part of a comprehensive program. the rent proposal is to start the discussion. we need to have a discussion with the lawmakers on what to do. because we have so many perverse incentives in place. for instance if you make more money you have to report that so your rent can go up. that's a ridiculous thing. to bring somebody into the household. >> the example you gave was a senior not a work-able that i gave dsh that i gave was not a work able household. i'm really concerned about that. because people on fixed incomes don't have any money for an increase.
they can't afford an increase. i'd like to know exactly what you're doing with people on fixed incomes. >> when -- as i said before, the elderly and the disabled are completely protected in the plan we have proposed. >> they are exempted from any increase. >> they have no increase. >> ner exempted from any increase is that correct. >> we have protected them from any increase. >> okay continue with your explanation. >> and as i was saying if you make more money, you know, you are personalized for that if you bring another income producing person into your environment, you're penalized for that. you have to report that. so your rent can be raised. don't even think about getting married. you'll probably lose all the subsidies all together. these things have been in the system a long time. this is all part of a comprehensive plan to change that scenario. >> i just got another fact. the average rent increase for a household headed by a person with a disability is $26 -- is
it a 26% increase. are you saying that's incorrect. >> i'm saying we have protected the elderly and disabled from increases. >> i really don't know what that means. >> that means they're not going to be increased. but the other thing that i hope you just heard me say, this is to start the conversation about something that is a chronic, persistent problem. we have to come up with better, more efficient ways so that we don't leave people in situations where they become depend. >> thank you, mr. chairman my time expired. but we can have a discussion all we want about rate increases if they are not affordable, if they are seniors, if they are on disability. the discussion does them no good. and i'm very concerned about that. and with that, the gentleman from north carolina ranking member mr. mchenry recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, secretary carson. during your time at hud process you've taken on a few tough fights. and i would -- i wanted to speak
to the example of the suit that -- under your direction and leadership hud filed against the new york city housing authority. which is the largest housing authority in america. it's the largest housing authority not just in the united states but in north america. and your lawsuit was about the deplorable conditions that -- of its housing units. and your accusation and hud's accusation was that new york housing authority was in substantial default under the 1937 housing act allowing for dangerous high levels of lead paint, unsanitary conditions, rats, mice, non-functioning heat in winter, and widespread recurring mold. in short, things were so bad in
so many new york city housing authorities eyewitness units that at least 19 children were found to have elevated blood lead levels. some residents sleeping with gas ovens on for heat. and 83% of inspected units contained a condition that could pose a health hazard to a tenant. this was covered up for years. so bad that the u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york said that their failure to provide decent, safe and sanitary housing is simply unacceptable and illegal. you sued the new york city housing authority and then in january of this year they voluntarily is entered into a consent decree with hud. can you walk us through that and the steps taken going forward. >> yes, well. >> so we can children and those in the units safe and healthy.
>> yes, we were very concerned, particularly about the lead situation and the number of children who have been affected. you know, lead poisons for a child is devastating, not only acutely but it has a lifelong impact. and not only does it decrease abilities, but it's very costly to society. in terms of their potential. but -- in the case of nycha, the new york city housing authority, they had been prevaricating about what they were doing during their inspections, covering it up completely. and in addition to that, allowing mold to fester, causing a lot of problems with asthma, which has a very substantial medical cost to it as well, not having up protected barriers where they need to be. trip hazards, elevators that weren't working. i mean, it was a total disaster.
and in situations like that in the past, you know, hud has frequently taken places into receivership. i've not taken anyplace in receivership since i've been here because in looking over the history of that, it's not turned out particularly well in all cases. and decided that we really would work with the city, the mayor and myself who come from very different political places, decided we would put aside the political differences and concentrate on the people and what could be done in order to help the people of nycha. we decided to put a monitor, a federal monitor who has much experience in that case. we put in measurements that have be met and times when they have to be met. and we are proceeding along that line. a ceo is in the process of being
selected now. and we are going to keep a very close eye on it. and we are going to hold them to the metrics that have been put in place, because, again, no one deserves to live in that setting. >> well, thank you for speaking to the humanity involved, not the physical -- the physical structures but actually speaking to the people that inhabit these places. and they deserve to live in a healthy, safe place. i want to raise opportunity zones, i know other people have questions about opportunity zones, and your leadership unthe white house opportunity revitalization council. but my time is cut short. thank you for your testimony and leadership and service to our country. i yield back thank you. >> the gentlewoman from new york also the chair for the subcommittee on invested entrepreneurship and capital market is recognized for fwief minutes. >> thank you, madam chair.
>> mr. secretary, the d in hud does not stand for deportation. i'm afraid that a recent proposal of yours will bring nothing but despair to thousands of american families by throwing children out of their homes, simply put we cannot create affordable housing for americans by throwing other americans out into the street with no place to go. i am very proud to represent queens bridge houses, the largest public housing complex in the entire country, along with many other public housing complexes. so i've been working with public housing tenants since 1981, standing up for tenants rights, fighting against spending cuts, and exposing and ending kucorru mob contracts. but your plan to create
vacancies by making 55,000 american children homeless is among the most damaging proposals i have ever seen in public policy. and quite frankly i find it despicable. you know that the current laws already prohibit federal housing programs subsidizing undocumented immigrants. individuals not eligible for housing assistance do not receive subsidies. by evicting mixed status households, you will rip apart families and be throwing children onto the street. and where will the 55,000 children go? where will they live? what agency will care for their health and education? is your plan to have i.c.e. put 5 a thousand more children on cages on the borders?
really, not in my district and not on my watch. this is a horrible plan. new york city now spends more than 600 million per year to support 8200 children in foster care. and 4.5 billion more every year to tackle homelessness. have you considered how you would support the newly homeless families and children? will they be going to foster care? what's your plan? >> well, first of all, thank you for the work that you've done on behalf of the people. and i appreciated our visit in new york. >> thank you. >> you know, as far as what we're doing with housing, the law that has been provided through congress states very specifically that the secretary of hud may not provide housing
assistance to people who are here illegally. it also states specifically that the secretary has the duty to end assistance if he finds that someone is violating that. so we are following the law. i would also point out to you. >> but -- but may i respond? by law, we already -- i agree with you. you don't provide subsidies to people who are here illegally. but the children were born here in america. and even if their families are illegal it's a mixed family in terms of legality. the children are legal. so you could have a situation where the parents are deported and the children they leave the children here. -- american citizens and who is going to take care of the children? do you have a plan to take care of these 55,000 children, which is hud's number that came
forward with that they project could be hurd by this plan? do you have plan for how to take care of these children, yes or no. >> a couple of things here. first of all, there are hundreds of thousands of children as well as elderly and disabled people on the waiting list who are legal american citizens. >> but mr. secretary, these children are legal american citizens. they were born in america. they are legal citizens. >> as i was saying, there are hundreds of thousands if not millions who are waiting on the list. do you suggest that we prioritize people who are illegal situation. >> you're employing to pick one american citizen over another. >> again with, these children are american citizens, they are legal. and what is your plan to take care of them? >> if you read the rule carefully, you will see that it
provides a six-month deferral on request if they have not found another place to live. and that can be renewed two two times for a total of 18 months which is plen of time for congress to engage and in comprehensive immigration reform so this become as moot point as does the daca situation and 100 other things. >> how in the world can you put forward a plan that could. >> the gentlelady's niem has expired. >> the gentlewoman from missouri, ms. wagner is recognized for five minutes. >> i thank the chairmanwoman, i thank secretary carson for his testimony and and his service would you like a minute any more time to respond. >> yes, thank you very much. the fact of the matter is congress has the responsibility for making the laws that govern this. and they have the ability to change that. and if in fact you want to
explain to the american citizens who have been on the wait list for several years in your district in new york why we should continue to support families that are not here legally, i would be happy to join you and in helping to explain that to them. >> thank you and i'm glad you could finish your answer. congressman al green and i have written and worked on legislation that addresses major challenging facing the disaster relief funding process at hud. according to numerous ig reports and a hearing that the financial services oversight investigations committee held in march, major issues have been identified with the community development block grant disaster recovery program. some of the difficulties identified are the potential duple indication of benefits. slows it gursment of zart related funding a and and delays in funding for moderate and low income citizens.
while hud has been a primary factor of providing skafrt recovery. it's not codified in statute. hud uses 60 federal register notices to issue clarifying guidance waivers and alternative requirement to oversee 113 active disaster recovery grants. which totaled more than $47 billion as of last year. codifying the cbdgr would provide a framework for future disasters reduce overreliance on federal notices for each disaster and speed delivery of disaster assistance to grantees and disaster victims. codify indication provides proper controls that protect against waste fraud and abuse. mr. secretary are you wore of the challenges within the cbdgr program and how are you making sure the funds are directed towards the americans needing it the most? >> thank you very much for that question. and for the visits that we have
had to discuss this and other matters. i actually very much agree with the whole concept of appropriate codifiation you and congressman green have been working on with others. and the big advantage of is you start out from second base instead from home. appear there are a lot of things done consistently all the time. and you can get those things codified and done quickly to decrease the amount of time. i'm in agreement with that. and we are happy to work with you, we are already making progress in that area. i think we can do this. because one of the things that concerned mean is the amount of time it takes to get grants out. >> right. >> and i've asked every office at hud to look at their own internal procedures and see what they can do to speed it up. if you have ten offices and nine of them get things done quickly
and one of them takes six months, the whole thing takes six months. >> there has tube coordination between hud, sba, fema, state agencies all talking to each other to make sure there is a prekurmt issues. i so look forward to working and continuing my work with congressman green to bring this to the floor. so i thank you for your support and your commitment to this. >> thank you. >> quickly moving on, the world's largest catholic health care system ascension is headquartered in the st. louis region. it's implementing a comprehensive organizational response to tracking viefrts at its hospitals. unfortunately ascension can only establish the programs where emergency house something available. i understand that the continuum of care fy '18 competition focus including $50 million for mousing services for domestic violence and trafficking survivors. will hud extend the program and
ensure that projects including housing for trafficking survivors are there more permanent way nas hud can address transitional housing needs for trafficking survivors, sir. >> well, you know, trafficly is obviously a horrendous and there is a lot more going on these days. and we definitely need to take care of that. and that was a very good program. it turns out that you all have funded that for the '19 sunday. yes it will be continued >> wonderful i'm glad to hear that my time is expired i yield back. >> thank you very much the gentlewoman from miss velazquez is recognized five minutes. >> thank you madam chair. secretary carson in defending hud as recently proposed immigration rule you released the following statement. there is an affordable housing crisis in this country. and we need to make certain our scarce public resources help
those legally entitled to it. secretary, do you know how many people are in the waiting list for public housing on section 8 vouchers? >> in your district, you mean. >> no, no, no, nationwide. >> there are hundreds of thousands. >> no there are 4.4 million people by the way. so do you know how many units would open up as a result of the proposed rule? how many units? >> probably. >> in the proposed rule. >> 32,000. >> 25 to 35 units. you are going to put children on the streets to open up 25 to 35,000 units. and these are americans children. where are they going to go? they will go into the shelter system. they will become homeless
children. knows a those are american children. the question is not where they are going to go. the question to you, sir is, why if you recognize that there is a housing crisis in our nation, that there are 4.4 million people in a waiting list, why you are not asking or why did you request $9.6 billion less more hud's budget for fiscal year 2020, including zeroing out the capital fund and requesting $350 million less for the section 8 program? do you understand why in sounds like you're talking from both sides of your mouth? you know, your regional director in new york miss lynn patton has
been spending nights living in public housing but apparently she forgot to talk to you, because this budget request doesn't reconcile what she is seeing on the ground. and i found that people critical -- people come here and talk about the situation of public housing in new york, and you have not been here when we have been advocating for increasing the capital fund so that we could make repairs. and we could address the issue of mold. in fact when you went to the hearings, confirmation hearings in the senate side, you said, that as a doctor you will want to take care of children in public housing. the health of children in public housing. sir, this budget is shameful. it's immoral.
it fails american citizens. just for the sake of scoring political points. so did you have any conversations about this proposed rule with the staff of the white house, including senior dwirds steven miller or acting white house chief of staff mick mulvaney? did you have? we have conversations all the time about many of our policies. >> and did you consult with any national affordable housing organizations, tenant rights or immigration groups. >> we have conversations with such groups all the time. >> did you have conversations with the largest new york city public housing authority in the nation, new york? did you? >> i think what is important is what are we going to do about the program. that would make a lot more
sense. >> reclaiming my time, you know, don't sit there, sir, and say about a national conversation. we need to have a national conversation about homelessness in our nation, about the disrepair of public housing in our nation. you know what it takes, it takes money. it takes the budget. you have created this crisis by the disinvestments that have taken place in public housing in our nation. >> we have a very substantial affordable housing crisis. and there are two ways to approach it. continue to throw money at it which has been done a long time without solving the problem or ask yourself why you have that problem of escalating crisis. i can say more about that. >> i yield back the balance of my time. >> the gentleman from florida, mr. posey is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chair. >> mr. secretary, they continue to ask you questions and not
allow to you time to answer them. that's pretty selfish bad behavior. so if you want any time to answer anything you just give me a thumbs up. >> thank you i appreciate that. it does seem a little silly to have a hearing where you ask a question and you can't answer it. it seems like more of a platform for a peach. >> would the gentlemen like to yield. >> no. >> you call me selfish by fighting children in america. >> chair, order, please. >> order. order, please. >> dr. carson has may time. >> mr. posey. >> in terms of affordable housing crisis. we have to ask ourselves why is there an affordable housing crisis in a country like ours? there are so many regulatory issues and zoning restrictions that add to the cost. for new construction single family home now we're talking 25 to 27% for fl multifamily construction we're talking 32.1%
up to 42% in a quarter of cases. unless we begin to tackle the things driving the prices, we're just chasing our tails by just saying we got to throw more money at it. we have to analyze these things carefully. we have to use our brains and think logically rather than just emotionally if we're going to solve the problems. they can be solved if we work together rather than everything into a political platform and trying to score points. >> well stated, mr. secretary. i'm saddened to come here only be bullied and berated for not breaking the law, actually. and i don't know if they were suggesting that you should separate these children their families as way to comply? i don't know if that's their suggestion. but it's off the wall thinking. and i respect for following the law. all of us here should be impressed at hud's 2020 budget.
the request continues the federal goal to prevent and end homelessness by sinking 22.6 billion to thousands of local housing and service programs assisting the the homeless. while a lot of the people up here do a lot of talking you've actually been doing a lot of work. and you've been accomplishing things. and i want you to know that a lot of people do recognize that and appreciate it. your list of accomplishments is extraordinary, just like the track record of your personal life. and we're pleased. >> thank you. >> you have chosen to dedicate your clearly superior intelligent and desire to help other people in the position that you are. i can't imagine you are willing to put yourself and your family through this. but we are so grateful you are willing to do that. >> thank you. >> mr. second, i've been vocal a
sporer support of easing restriction ohs fha loans for condominiums. could you give us an update on where that is. >> the condominium issue is sticky and complex, fraught with risk. and we've been doing a very in-depth analysis working with it, have submitted new rules for it that has gone over to omb. . and we expect to have the final rules on condominiums out by this fall. >> that's great. thank you, sir. also, we recently discussed your recent proposed rules issued under section 3 of the hud act of '68. i just wonder if you could share with us the important improvements you've made. >> yes, section 3 is an str extremely important part of the housing act, because is it requires that if you are getting hud money that you have to hire, train or give contracts to the
low-income people in the area. it's been largely ignored because it's so encumbered with regulatory requirements that nobody wants to use it. so we have done an in-depth analysis of it, removed a lot of the encumbrances, added incentives and the new rules for section 3 will be come out this summer. >> excellent. well, again, my time is about to expire, mr. secretary. but i again want to thank you for your service and express that i'm embarrassed by the way you are treated in in committee. >> thank you. >> yield back. >> thank you very much. let me remind you, members will refrain from impung the personal motives of other members. the gentleman from california, mr. sherman is recognized for five minutes. >> madam chairman, the member controls their five minutes. the witness controls the five minute opening statement. and many of our witnesses have a
outstanding bully pulpit outside this room. to turn and say to minneapolis members they don't control tier their five months is a denigration of our role as members of this committee. as to affordable housing, the witness does point out that there are barriers to the creation of more rental units. and we need many, many hundreds of thousands built. we need to keep interest rates low. zoning in most cities makes it impossible to build rental housing in neighborhoods where people are not poor. and we can say we don't discriminate against poor people we just discriminate against people who don't want to riff six families to the acre or four families to the acre. you can't build affordable rental housing six families to the acre. and we also have the fiscalization of land use planning. where cities are financed based on the money they can get from
commercial development. and they fight in my state over who are prevent housing from being built on certain empty acreage if they can only get an auto deal are there they get the sales tax. so the fiscalization of land use planning also keeps cities from allowing rental housing to be built. i know miss maloney is not here. but, second, i want to thank you for being perhaps the only person in your administration to support comprehensive immigration reform. and reform which would have provided and which would provide legal status for the families that ms. maloney from new york is concerned about. as to somewhat more mundane matters, the fha has a specific mortgage requirements, some of which are -- services and requirements. i'm talking about mortgage servicing some of question are antiquated. in your ongoing efforts to make
the fha program more attractive to lenders, what is hud doing to better' line fha servicing requirements to those of gse's. >> one of things that we're doing is working with the justice department on the false claims act. which has driven away, you know, quite a few of the lenders who are concerned about non-material mistakes and the consequences for them. and that will open up a lot more borrowing options for people. >> do you see a need for legislation for us to what correct the false claims act? or can this be done administratively. >> we're going to try to do it at the administrative level. but appreciate the implication that you would help us if legislation is needed. >> okay. the rental assistance
demonstration program focuses on public housing authorities, the problem allowing public housing authorities to convert housing properties at risk of ob sol essence into project based vouchers under section 8. are you familiar with the r.a.d. program and are you supporting it. >> i've familiar and it's a spectacular program. we've been able to already convert well over 100,000 units, contribute $7 billion toward the capital needs. it's one of the the most spectacular programs and one of the things that would help us tremendously legislatively is to lift the cap on r.a.d. right now it's at $455,000 units. but there are so many places cross the country that are requesting it. and there is absolutely no reason that it shouldn't be lifted. it's already been demonstrated to be extremely effective.
>> thank you. and we should look at that. now, the fha's is concerned about people having downpayments. and some get assistance from their families. some get assistance from government entities. and the differentiation in default rates is like 0.2% between whether you get aid from a government entity or a family. and yet you are being pretty restrictive on the government entity aid. and this particularly affects some indiana yn tribes who are being told they can only make loans -- or provide rental assistance in their own geographic area which can be a small reservation. can you look at this. >> yes we are in the process of looking at that. as you know there's been a 90-day delay on that and we are in fact looking at it. but it's also in litigation, so
not free to talk too much about it. >> thank you very much, the gentleman from missouri mr. lukt myers is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you madam chair over here dr. carson. dr. carson one area this committeed examined at length is this lack of affordable housing in the country. the main cause is the regulatory burdens that increase the cost of the mortgage which you've zriebt described a minute ago actually for some types of housing 32 to 40%. one impending rule hud should be focused on affects the afford ability of house something the impending current expected credit loss accounting ask standard for creasele. the standard requires banks to incur the full loss of a loan at the moment of originalation. . i've heard concerns from numerous industries credit you knows realtors and home builders. many of the concerns stem around housing affordability. according to the national association of home builders who
testified in this committee twice over the last four or five months the increase in the could you say cost of a house by $1 produces 100,000 out of a home. my question to you this morning is have you looked at the effects of c.e.c.i.l. what effects they have on the ability of someone to afford a home. >> yes, we have. it's difficult trying to project out into the future, you know, risk of that nature. and we're in the process of studying that carefully. we don't want to make a mistake on that. >> are you coming up with a study on the effect of the individuals, the number of folks, the affect on your -- the amount you have to reserve, and what kind of reaction you'd have to have to come up with increase the reserves. >> all of those parameters are being looked at. >> so if you have to increase the reserves what is the source of income for you. >> excuse me. >> i say if you have to increase the reserves what is the source of income by which you would be able to do that. >> where would the money come from from which we would be able to do that. >> right.
>> i'm not sure. >> you have to increase the guarantee fees perhaps. >> that is one suggestion. >> if that happens, the increases the cost of a loan which home build he is say keeps people from a home. >> you have to look at all possible sources and model it to see what the long-term effect is. >> this is going to effects the gse's as well have you looked at that effect. have you talked to freddy and fanny to see how it impacts you any coordination with all of the other government attentions that may or may not the impact. >> we at a do talk about that. i will had been at fha meeting this afternoon. i'm sure that topic will come up. >> interesting. so are they monitoring in? are you aware of? or -- >> i'm sorry. >> are they monitoring are you aware if they are monitoring this at all or coming up with
studies to look at the costs they may incur what they may do to react to this? >> i'm not -- i'm not sure what you mean. >> in your communications with them are they looking at how to increase the reserves? are they going to borrow money from the treasury increase the guarantee tees? or have you discussed that at all or is that part of the meeting this afternoon. >> they are looking at how do they back stop themselves. right now? conservativership they don't have to worry about that if they km out of conservativership that's a different question about where the money comes from. and there are multiple skukss about where it would come from. >> okay. one of the questions that you were -- did you were answering a while ago was with regards to the cost drivers for affordable housing. and you know, i guess my question for you is, how much
authority do you have at hud if any with the ability to waive certain rules and regulations, or change rules and regulations, or suspend rules and regulations? is there certain rules and eggs you have the ability to to do that or are your hands tide and the congress has to be the one to change the way it works. >> the vast majority of the regulations are done at a local level. >> okay. >> so we can't change those. what we can do is try to incentivize people at the local level to begin to look at some of these rules. and to address them. and they get preference points when they do that. and a lot of people are realizing that and do that. a lot of the regulations have been on the books for 10, 20, 50, 100 years, have nothing to do with with what's going on. the densery requirements frequently don't take into account some of the modern building techniques. and as far as the whole affordable issue is concerned,
in addition to financial issues, we have to look at modern technologies that have come to the fore. and i can continue that at some point. >> my time is expired thank you for your service. >> the gentleman from mr. missouri mr. clay who is also the chair for subcommittee on housing, community development and insurance is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chair. and mr. secretary, let's discuss the welston, missouri, housing authority, and which the -- which hud has had in receivership the last 22 years. and as you are aware there is a planned demolition of a number of units which will displays tenants, uproot lives and cause utter confusion in those lives. children will be forced to change schools. and some parents will have
drastic changes to their life and work schedules. as you know, we are looking at several options which we are discussed. including the grant -- the grand families concept and section 202 housing. could you please walk us through displacement such as this and tell us what does hud do to serve the affordable housing needs of these residents and ensure that they have access to safe, affordable and modern -- modern housing. >> all right. well, thank you for that question. and thank you for the times that we've had a chance to discuss this and the visit in your district where the people seem to like you very much. you know, certainly we're very concerned about any time people have to be displaced which is why we have tenant protection
vouchers. not only do we provide those but we provide relocation services to help those individuals to be able to adjust. and in some cases, you know, they end up finding places that they like considerably better and don't even want to come back when the problem is rectified. but we want to give choices. but we have been working vigorously with the housing choice vouchers to make them for palatable. because there are many places landlords won't accept them. and we've done studies to find out why they won't accept them. some of them are interesting. for instance in san diego there was great resistance. and then the city guaranteed all the landlords that they would repair any damage that was done, because the landlords were afraid the people would destroy the property.
>> they're not going to destroy the property. they've been waiting a long time for the voucher they're not going to do that. but sometimes you have to fight the perception. and that was done. pu there are lolts of other things that impact that. by look very carefully at how we can make sure that those people are taken care of who are displaced. >> and in speaking of that, you know st. louis county government is considering an ordinance that will prohibit a source of income discrimination as far as housing vouchers are concerned, which i think will address it at the local level. can you give us some examples of public/private partnerships that could work for a community like welston? are you have you given that any thought. >> i think there are many of them around the country. you know, purpose built communities, there is -- like
east lake outside of atlanta which as some people here probably know was one of the worst places in terms of crime, in terms of poverty, schools performing at the lowest level in the state and through the public private partnershiping, building of mixed income housing, bringing in grocery stores, places for work, employment, they were able to convert that neighborhood completely. i went to one of the charter schools that they put in. the high school he was met by five students playing the harp. the things they had available were outstanding. the schools achieve at the highest level in the state now better than many private schools. can it be done? absolutely it needs to be done in a holistic manner? do we have the abel to do this in country? we absolutely do. we'll never get it done if we fight each other. but if we recognize the problem and begin to work with each other everybody has good ideas.
>> will the gentleman yield? do i hear a commitment to welston. >> we were getting to that, ma'am. >> the gentleman is committing to helping to do a -- >> i will ask the question. >> thank you. >> go right ahead. >> of course we're going to be very interested in welston. and of course we're going to be interested in helping there. >> and you are committed -- hud is committed to working with us in that community to make sure that. >> right and we want to continue to work with you on that. absolutely. >> i appreciate it. my time is expired and i yield back, madam chair. >> thank you very much. the gentleman from wisconsin, mr. duffy is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chair. welcome, dr. carson. i imagine as a -- as a -- i almost said former doctor but as a doctor you probably prefer to deal with the root causes of someone's health problem as opposed to just the symptom of the problem. >> absolutely. >> and so i -- you're somewhat
getting bludgeoned by my colleagues about your rule on non-citizens. en a your rule that actually follows the law passed by congress. but i would note that it seems like in the last several months we have 50,000 illegals coming across our border every month. and when there is an open border and people continue to flood into our country, you're going to have more problems of illegal parents and maybe u.s. citizen children pap. and so maybed intsz of blujingen you as secretary of hud the congress should deal with securing the southern border recognize the crisis and take responsibility oursds which i would encourage my friends across the aisle to put up let mirror and say maybe we have to deal with the problem. maybe it's not dr. carson's fault. >> that makes far too much sense. >> i would agree with that. maybe just in regard to your
rule, you're basically saying i'm going to follow the law and let u.s. citizens take up priority in-housing that comes from hud. is that right? >> that's correct. although i'm open -- i'm not a hard nose. so if someone can tell me, you know, how to follow the law and still take care of their issue, i'm all ears. i'm ready to hear it. >> so in the way you structured this rule, to actually follow the law that's passed by congress, did you give some extra time for the congress to act and maybe change the law? >> yeah, they can have six month deferral. and they can renew that twice. so that's 18 months which should be plenty of time, if congress was actually interested in solving the problem. >> and again, i just want to period aen oh the point that this problem is getting worse. and this is not compassion. i was just at the border. and to look at what's happening to families and the journey and
the sexual assaults and the indentured serve attitude of people coming up through cartels and have to work for the cartels once they get here. this is not compassion. what you experience is not compassion. but i applaud you because i believe as an american citizen we should put americans first. >> absolutely. and if we're not going to be a nation of laws, what happens if we say, we can ignore this one we don't like this one but this one we'll do? where does that lead in the long run? to nothing but chaos. >> chaos. i want to pivot because you mentioned one of the pathways forward is to look at the cost of housing. why has it become so unaffordable? again, we're looking at the symptom of increase costs. why don't we look at the root cause. you mentioned i think in a regulation and zoning that can drive up the cost of us housing. interest there any examples you have local governments that have tried to address their -- their
zoning rules and egregulations d allow for more multifamily structure that is can drive down prices but also improve the stock? >> yes, there are several cities have engaged in that. they have come to recognize one very important thing. a lot of the regulatory -- the barriers are caused by nembism not my backyardism. i understand that. the most valuable thing people have it their home. they have in their mind the model of 1960s and 70s where the government comes in and build the massive structure was no forethought, no holistic planning, leave and they would deteriorate. and nobody wants that around them. but, of course we got to get the message out that the government doesn't do that anymore. now we do public/private
partnerships. we do things that match the community. because we want, you know, nurses and policeman and fireman and teachers living in the same community they work. that doesn't decrease the value. i think that increases value of the community. >> but with a little restructuring on zoning and rules, we can actually lower the cost of housing, right. >> absolutely. >> i wanted to get to puerto rico. my time is almost up. but i know you have allowed for what 1.5, $1.8 billion in disaster relief together to puerto rico. you have strings attached which i agree with. and any objections from the puerto ricoens thus far in how you structured the money? >> none what so far. the governor and i have been working together. and they have $1.5 billion medium able available to them of which they've used 250,000. >> 250 million. >> 250,000.
>> 250,000. >> mr. scott is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you very much chair lady. dr. carson good to have you back again. >> thank you. >> dr. carson are you familiar with own to option mortgage programs? >> in general, yes. >> in general. well, the national urban institute has recognized this as an excellent way to move people into home ownership. you -- have you reviewed this? have -- how receptive are you to it. >> i'm very receptive to the idea, recognizing that home ownership is the principle mechanism of wealth accumulation in this country. the average renter has a net worths of 5,000. the home owner 240,000. that's 40 fold increase. we are looking at multiple ways
and models to increase home ownership particularly amongst some of the demographics that have fallen behind. >> that's vrgtd. and i nurnl you to continue that as well. now, let me go to a project you have mentioned some time ago as being one of your real projects that you can take some authorship in. it's called envision centers. could you tell us about that. >> yes. >> i have spoken with some of the public housing authorities in my district down in georgia, like east point housing authority and many others. and they seem to be very excited about this. tell us a little more about that, will you? >> well, the idea comes from the bible, proverbs 29. >> hold on. it comes from the bible. >> the bible. >> very good. >> it says without a vision the people perish.
we said we'll call it vision centers but everybody would think they they were getting glasses so we call them envision centers. it's a place to bring together all of the various services that are available to move people towards seven sufficiency. so instead of them going to 17 different places they can get all of the services under one roof. we had the first demonstration of 17 cities. and 13 of them have opened already. some of them are doing extremely well. and, you know, this is just a model which i think is going to explode very soon and we're going to have a lot of these. >> let me ask you this, now, you mentioned when you made that announcement last april, i believe, you did say as you just mentioned 17 centers open. but to our available knowledge
that has come to us, only three -- only three, not 13, so there are some screamcy will are you aware of that? >> there may be but actually an article in o.a.n. this week that details the 13 open. >> okay. that's good. the envision centers. i hope you continue that. folks in georgia in my district are very excited about it. and soy look forward to working with you. now now, tell me and give me a very good update and let me know, because the last time you were here you and i had a very spirited conversation about your desire or we your desire was as you said in your statement somebody thad that we ought to zero out the community development block grant program.
after you and i talked, tell me, are we secure with that program? railroad do you and i have to go to battle once more on that? >> i don't think we ever have to go to battle regardless whether you. >> let me tell you, man, if you move one inches to zero out the most effective program that cities and states and counties use to lift themselves up and be the cities and towns that they need, yes, we will go to battle. i'm asking you, will we have to go to battle? are you all still planning to zero out the budget for the cbdg program yes or no.
>> let me just say i don't think we need to go to bottle battle regardless of anything. having said that as i said before, the cbdg program has been helpful in many cases. >> no, i know my time is short. have you moved away from zeroing out that budget? yes or no. >> it's not a yes or no question. >> yes, it is. >> you just want to make it into a battle. it doesn't need to be. >> no, i want a yes or no answer. you're going to do it or or not? apparently you still have that on the table. >> the gentleman from ohio mr. staiier. >> mr. scott your question was not answered. mr. stivers? >> mr. barr, the gentleman from kentucky is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chairwoman pan secretary thanks for being back in front of our committee. i think you're doing a great
job. i appreciate the good work you are doing despite the criticism you are receiving heard today. and i applaud you and this administration in preying breaking from the old ways of doing things where you threw money at welfare programs and expected to cure poverty. well we know after $20 trillion, since the war on poverty declared in 1964 that didn't work. but what's working is the trump economy. what is working is tax cuts and deregulation. we had the lowest unemployment in 50 years. we have the lowest unemployment among african-americans, hispanic americans, in 50 years of all time for those categories. we see wages rising faster today than before the great recession. we're seeing jobs being created, more people getting getting off food stamps. more people moving to seven sufficiency. opportunity zones and and these policies are producing growth and lifting people out of poverty and away from government dependency. i applaud that. secretary carson i want to thank you for taking to time to come
to kentucky and visiting st. james place and the hope center. >> yes. >> the work they are doing there, the faith based groups working with people recovering from addiction. as we discussed on your visit, the opioid crisis hit kentucky very hard. this issue had a tragic impact on countless families across our state and across the country. according to the national institute on drug abuse, every day more than 130 people in the united states are dying as a result of opioid overdose, for the just pills but heroin and fentle as well. last congress we passed hr 6 to combat the opioid ep dem. included was at career act. when fully implemented by your agency this legislation will create a pilot program to help individuals in their recovery from substance abuse disorder to secure stable transitional housing and job training. and i want to thank you and hud for taking the first step towards implementation of this program with the publication of a funding formula in march. that said, as i swakted, 130
deaths a day we have got to move the pilots forward as expeditiously a as possible. it is it possible for hud to move forward with this pilot in this fiscal year. >> yes, we are already moving forward with it, recognizing as you said that this is a national tragedy. and you know, we need to actually stop and look at how do we integrate the various agencies and federal, state and local agencies in order to take care of this, because it is a national problem. and what people need to recognize about opioids is you can get hooked on them in a matter of a week or two. but changes that occur in the brain frequently take 12 to 18 months to correct. so unless you are involved in an ongoing program you are probably not going to be successful.
you're going to have relapses. and then that continues to drive the costs. >> well thank you, sir. >> we need a much more comprehensive way to look at it. the career program is going to help us do that. >> thank you for your leadership and working with us to move the program forward as quickly as possible to save lives and moves folks out of recovery into long-term jobs and a life -- addiction-free life. just yesterday, sir, hud rescinded the may 2017 carport letters that did not go through the proper administrative process to begin with and required alternative construction approval for all homes built -- built carport ready. i want to thank you for this because that policy proposed a costly and time consuming hurdle for the production of manufactured homes that negatively impacted consumers. and forced many manufacturers to stop ofrpg the carport ready homes. we talk about affordable housing over regulation. from hud. in the past it's been an
impediment to housing particularly manufactured housing. >> of course. >> but we still see this this manufactured housing consensus committee, this advisory committee has put forward a lot of recommendations like this. and hudof recommendations like this and hud hasn't finalized more than 100 recommendations. what can be done to change the internal process of hud so that more of these recommendations are probably adopted? >> we have beefed up in division that is working on manufactured housing recently so that they are not just treading water. they are making forward progress right now. on the whole concept of affordable housing, manufactured housing in the critical part of it. about 10% of single family housing units are manufactured housing units. the technology has increased dramatically so they are better than safe built houses in many cases.
cement thank you. i yield back. cement the gentleman from texas mister green with the chair for oversight is recognized for five minutes. cement thank you madam chair and i think the witness for appearing today. i would like to also thank miss wagner. she initially called to my attention this program, the possibility of getting something done and she and i have worked together to try and perfected to the extent that it can be perfected. i am grateful to her. i am also grateful to the staff for working on this while she and i presented concepts, the staff actually worked together to make sure that our yields were achieved to the extent they could be. so let's talk for a moment about the time that you mentioned earlier with the disaster relief.
for edification purposes and people who may be listening and not privy to information about this, this program is something that comes into being after we have had a disaster, and we currently reinvent the wheel each and every time. we don't always have the institution of knowledge available to us. people move on and we sometimes have to not only reinvent the wheel, we have to reinvent some of the various components. it would be a good thing in my opinion to codify this program. can you speak briefly to the timeline and how the timeline can be? >> yes. there is no question from particularly early on after a disaster some of the coordination that has to occur between small business, fema, and hud, it is duplicative.
there are ways that we can streamline that process. then some of the basic things that have to be done in order to get the grant money out, it's absolutely the same thing over and over again. that is what i meant when i said if we can get those things codified we can start out on second base on our way home rather than have to go completely around the whole thing. what you are talking about makes 100% sense. and i am in 100% agreement with it. we will continue to work with your group to make sure that it gets done. cement thank you for the announcement of support. let's move to hr 123 which is the fha additional credit pilot program. there are many people who are first-time homebuyers who have credit, but they do pay
utilities like a light bill and the gas bill, and they do this religiously. they are not late. but these things are not always scored. it can done on an individual case-by-case basis. this is important not only to the person who may be able to purchase a home, but it is also important to the rest of us because when at home is purchased washers and dryers and curtains and other things are purchased that will impact the economy. i am hopeful that you will be able to support the fha additional credit pilot program. it doesn't mean that other credit options that are scored will cease to be scored. this is not a substitute. it is in addition to. would you comment please on this program and the possibility of you supporting it? and there is no question that
some people come with a very thin credit record and placed in a significant disadvantage. i was recently looking at a study in which they looked at how a person paid the rent and how often they paid it on time and how often they paid late, and they factored that into the credit rating. in most cases it actually improved the credit score and made it better. we are doing some more in-depth looking at that. the fha commissioner and i have been talking about this alternative credit score. again recognizing that has to be done in a responsible way because you remember before the housing crisis that people was going through some things that were not legitimate and put a lot of people into houses they could not afford. as a result of that they lost the house, their credit, and their future opportunities.
we certainly don't want to get into that situation. we will study it carefully, but i am very open to the alternative credit. i appreciate you working on that. >> i thank you and look forward to the continued work to bring these programs to fruition. thank you madam chair. to make the gentleman from colorado mister tipton is recognized for five minutes. >>:you madam chair and we thank you for being here. we are going to bring up some local issues for us in colorado. i had the opportunity to be able to visit with some of our local housing authorities and in colorado they have been indicating that fema and hud have a one-size-fits-all approach to the library. one program that i have heard to be particularly challenging for some the smaller housing authority is a real estate assessment program. they have been suggested that the inspection guidelines are stringent and difficult to meet, especially the physical inspection demand by the staff
that need to be able to visit multiple scattered sites. the gao recently released a list of recommendations to be able to improve the physical inspection program process and oversight for the inspectors. as you or has your department reviewed some of the recommendations and considered included them into the execution of the program? >> yes. this is an area that is really captured my interest. i was interested when i came in and found that people getting places that i would not want a dog to live in. it made no sense and with so inconsistent. we are doing a top to bottom analysis of the scoring process and changing it. we have moved out some of the inspectors who had questionable character, and brought in another host of
inspectors. we are also looking at the way that we do the procurement of the inspectors before, as you would take the lowest bidder always. sometimes you get what you pay for. you obviously have to be cognizant of that. >> thank you for that. i would like to be able to get your opinion in regards to regulation and your flexibility. unit -- do you think you have enough flexibility to accommodate urban and rural areas? >> we would always like more flexibility, no question about that. it gives us a lot more ability to move quickly and to be able to do things. we will manage with what we have. >> i appreciate that and that is where one of the challenges our. we have legislators from urban air representing a rural area
and some of the distinct differences and be able to accommodate him being responsive and able to meet the needs is very important. i have heard from some of my constituents that programs like the housing authority scoring system account for individual market conditions. have you given thought to making more geographically driven approach to some of the regulations? >> i'm always in favor of local control and not heavy-handed federal bureaucracy. if you have some specific suggestions about things we should be doing to make that even more available, i am very happy to work with you on that. cement thank you and we will follow with you on that. i am like you, to be able to have it locally driven as best as we can to meet the needs at home. we will be happy to reach out to you and your office. just one last question.
one thing that we have heard is that all areas of government, we are seeing federal dollars allocated for state distribution that do not make it out of the metropolitan areas and even the rural areas. a lot of the grants go to our state and unfortunately they stay in large metropolitan areas. you see a better way to make sure that we are reaching all of the constituents and not discarding people who live in rural america? >> thank you for mentioning that. one of the reasons the opportunities were left up to the governor in each of the states is so they could target some of the rural areas. as a result of that about 40% of the opportunities are in rural areas. i think that will be a tremendous help. manufactured housing is also an item in rural areas, twice as
much as you find them in suburban and urban areas. anything that we can do to enhance the manufactured housing industry is going to be helpful for the housing situation in rural areas. cement thank you again for being here and i'm out of time. i yield back. said the gentleman from missouri. also the chair for international development and monetary policy is recognized for five minutes. >> inc. you very much. mister secretary, i am glad you brought up the opportunity zone because that is where i wanted to hang out for a few minutes. we have gone through the consideration from that treasury department rulemaking period, and i am assuming there will be some additional rules
to come out with. what they are called so far is general rules. so my concern, and i have read everything that comes out, and my concern right now is i am not sure, well, let me ask this question. what is the role of hud going to be? they seem to be doing the rulemaking, and since there is no application process, what role will they be playing. >> 35 million americans live in opportunity zones, and 2.4 million hud assistant individuals live in opportunity zones. the household income in the opportunity zones is about 37% below the state level.
the high school graduation level has 22% don't graduate in the opportunity zones. what we are talking about is the people that hud has a tendency to serve are in opportunity zones. that is a reason that hud has been said -- selected to chair the opportunity and revitalization culture which consist of 60 federal agencies and federal state agencies so that they can focus their attention on the opportunity zones and remove the barriers quickly rather than have them go here and there and beyond. obviously hud will be playing a very significant role. >> but that regulatory responsibility will remain with treasury? >> remember all of the regulations come from a variety of different agencies. that is why we have 16 different ones.
we will be able to coordinate and focus their attention and remove the regulations quickly that are necessary to be removed. some regulations are important and we recognize that. >> if an opportunity zone fund, if it is presented with an investment and placed in this fund, thus the nova come from hud? >> if you are talking about a tax issue that would be treasury. >> the actual monitoring of this is the question, and at the end of the year. if you don't apply you go in and you actually do it during the tax season. i am just hoping that is not a situation where opportunity, at
least 90% of the money invested into the project, and let's say something goes wrong, it is not going to be known until at the end of the year. is that right? >> in terms of the financial consequences perhaps. but we have an executive director who has an office so that we can get real-time feedback all the time so that the program can be changed as we roll it out. >> that is the part that i was not familiar with. will the director be in hud? >> the office is in hud. scott turner is his name. cement do you have any idea when the final regulations and when it first came out we added two pages and they was going to
be the least regulated project, and then we got 2-3 weeks ago, something pretty thick. i am assuming that the final would be extremely much thicker. >> most of the regulations have been put forward already and the last one should be relatively small. i think the rules are pretty well set out at this point. a lot of money is coming in and a lot of activity is occurring. cement thank you very much. the gentleman from texas mister williams is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you secretary carson for being here today. in 2015 you wrote an opt head entitled experimenting with failed socialism again about the previous administration
furthering the fair housing rule. under your leadership hud is committing to re-examine this rule. i want to thank you for being a strong s first of all and for your service to this country. can you elaborate on why more socialist heavy-handed government approach to fair housing would fail low income individuals and minorities? >> one of the reasons that i took this job is because i was very concerned about what was happening particularly to a lot of disadvantaged people in our society. and that we selectively, the government, we are actually keeping people in poverty and dependency because we kept going down the same track. whether it was republicans or democrats. we do want to find ways that we can liberate people from those kinds of things. all of the policies are aimed
at doing that. do i want to do that? of course i want to do that. but there was a system in place , an assessment tool, that basically gave you statistics. it created a big screen with purple and pink dots and if you move some of the pink ones here and the yellow ones they are, and i am not sure that actually solves the problem. why do you have segregation in housing? it is not because george wallace is standing at the door blocking people, but it is because people can only afford to live in certain places. will we really need to do is ask yourself how do we liberate people from that? that is why we have been spending so much time and effort looking at housing choice vouchers and how to make them more pliable. that is why we are looking at ways to decrease the regulatory
cost so that it is possible to build in other places and build places like eastlake, and that is why we concentrate on community develop, we concentrate not only on the houses but the schools, owned grocery stores, on transportation, on all of the things that allow people to thrive and move up. that is why we try to create programs that enable people to become self-sufficient. that is why we provide the services and information about the services because it doesn't do good to have services that people don't know about. >> opportunities are a good thing. there's been a lot of talk about the proposed rule that would prevent noncitizens from receiving taxpayer-funded federal housing assistance. on may 15 you received a letter from 12 democrats that stated the following, and i quote, the administration's approach to this proposed rulemaking runs counter to the goals of providing housing assistant to the most wonderful americans. i personally totally disagree with that.
i defined vulnerable americans as a legal citizen who is not receiving any benefits at the cost of someone who is in the country illegally. secretary carson because of your knowledge of the waitlist on these programs, i do want to give you the opportunity to justify this move of putting the needs of the american citizens first. >> it seems only logical that taxpaying american citizens should be taken care of first. it is like when you get on an airplane and they make the announcement in case of an emergency an austrian mass will drop down and put your zone first and then help your neighbor. it is the same concept. it is not that we are cruel or mean hearted. we are just logical. this is common sense. you take care of your own first. it is also, since they you
asked yourself why you having these kind of problems? the answer to that is that we will not deal with the underlying problem. until we are willing to collectively both democrats and republicans, to sit down and solve the problem, we are going to continue to have these problems crop up continually. why are we fighting the symptoms when we can get to the root cause of the problem. >> have illegal immigrants been able to exploit the hole in the hud regulation and are you confident that you can fix this issue? >> i think we can fix this. we now have the safe system through dhs which allows us to identify people quickly. this was not the case when this rule was put in place. >> thank you for your testimony. >> the gentleman from california mister vargas is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you madam chair and thank you doctor for being here. i do want to continue on the
question for my friend in texas. one of the things that has not been mentioned and i'm a little surprised that you have not mentioned is that if a person is undocumented, the is prorated and the person undocumented does get any subsidy, but the child that is helped. that is one of the things that was not mentioned and i thought it would be. the law as it currently stands and the rules say those children that are american citizens, they are helped by americans even though i would extended further to christian, but i don't make the difference between somebody that is undocumented or not. they knowingly take care of the child. that is not been brought up in all of this conversation and should have been. sir, am i incorrect about that? >> you are not incorrect. also interestingly enough the prorating. how do you prorate a roof over somebody's head?
>> by the number of people in there. you are taking care of the child and you do in fact prorated against anybody who is ineligible because of their legal status or some other reason. but the child of an american citizen and those 55,000 children are going to be somehow thrown into the street. your agency itself, you guys determined your analog -- analyst will be more expensive to the federal government if it goes forward. >> it is our determination and i thank you for making that point and the reason it will be more expensive is because of people on the waiting list are even more needy than the ones who are in there. we do need to take care of them. as i mentioned before i would love to be able to take care of everybody. but we have to do this within the framework of the law, and if people don't like the law they should change it. >> we do have a rule that takes care of it today. i have to set you did quote and
i appreciate you quoted proverbs 18 and 17 and i believe the second part to that, it says something like where there is no vision the people perish, but happy is the man who follows the law for he is joyce, or something like that. proverbs 29 i think seven go something like the righteous care about the justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern. i do believe that you are wicked in any way and i think you are trying to figure out how to propose something to formulate. and i don't believe that this rule could have come from you. i was there in 2013 when you spoke at the national prayer breakfast and i go there every thursday. i don't think you are mean- spirited at all. i disagree with some of your policies. there is 50,000 children, and you put them on the street, i
do think that is mean-spirited. i don't think that is your nature and i hope you review that. >> it is not my nature to want to put anybody on the street. that is why we provided the 18 month. >> i hope and pray that you rethink that. again i don't agree with all of your policies, but i certainly do challenge your view of humanity and you have been a good person and i hope you review that. i do want to ask about doctor recipients also. my understanding has been that they have been eligible for fha loans. i asked around after i read the story and that is that the daca cbs was being denied fha loans. no one was aware of the change made to the policy whatsoever. i'm sure we have plenty of daca recipients who have an fha loan. have you made any changes? >> the same policy has been in place since 2003 which was
reaffirmed in 2015 by the previous administration. we have not made any changes to that. said thank you and i hope that becomes clear out there in the community. again i thank you for being here and we disagree on some issues, but i appreciate your openness also toward copperheads of immigration reform. >> the gentleman from arkansas mister hill is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you chair and mister secretary i'm glad to have you back before the committee. i am very pleased you made your second trip back to the second congressional district in arkansas and we appreciate you coming to our state and the fair lending and fair housing conference. i heard a lot of positive remarks about your comments. we want to have you back as we explore the opportunity zone with senator scott down in the district and what is interesting is that one of the opportunities owns and is in
one of our historically black college and universities, and to me that is a interesting opportunity because not only does the president asked you to work on the opportunities own issue, it also has empowered the executive order to try and maximize all federal resources to enhance the position of our historically black colleges and universities. this could be a really interesting opportunity. when you was in little rock a few years ago you visited with our house which is the housing homeless holistic approach and we don't separate the moral from the economic. it is a holistic approach to education and health care and childcare as well is getting people lifted up and back to a productive life. they was very instant in potentially being an envisioned center partner to a public
housing authority. will there be another cohort were public housing authority can offer proposals and partnerships? >> we have a real operator in place when it comes to spreading those programs. the initial cohort was to gain information on how to do this and make it work effectively. yes, that will be happening. >> good. another area i have listened to in my district, and their certifications of landowners, one of my city council members doors and i toured an apartment complex, and while it has a good mentorship program with the local church that helps with childcare and
mentoring the residents they are, the conditions are just deplorable, meaning the physical conditions. can you follow it may be in writing what the standards are that the local city council should hold public housing authority to on certifying that a landowner is qualified for receiving a section 8 voucher? >> i think we can get that information to you. no question about it. we do trust to some degree that the landowners to be reasonable people. also, for them to have some concern for the people. we do have some degree of oversight. there are legal remedies for people who abuse it. >> this was pretty rough, and when you do a cruise through this particular complex and look at some of the conditions
of the unit, one might question whether not they are eligible for section 8 money. we have had a lot of talk about overcrowding today and issues, and we have had legislation in the congress and i was shocked when i first came to the congress that new york with a big city, and a big demand for public housing, had a waiting list of like 500,000 units, and there was tens of thousands of units the people was occupied that people was making too much money to be qualified and be in public housing. i think president donald trump sign that into law, and are we doing a better job of making sure that if you are earning too much money that you have opportunities elsewhere to live so that we can make room for some of these long waiting list? >> we are trying to create an environment where people feel freer to exit the supported housing.
it is sort of a catch 22 because we have also got into a situation when people begin to climb the ladder, we pulled the ladder out from under them, and everybody else is watching that then they say they are not climbing the ladder. we have to be careful about the way we do that, and allowing people to exit in the way that they will be able to continue climbing the ladder, and if they feel comfortable going out there. those are the kind of programs that we have to be creating. >> thank you mister secretary. >> the congresswoman from ohio is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you madam chair and mister secretary. i have several questions and because of our five minute time period i'm going to try to get through them at rapid speed.
you was here before and i'm going to ask you the same questions i have asked every one of your colleagues, and i am very hopeful that you can give me a yes on this. are you familiar with him we and what it is. , mister secretary. i asked you this when you was here last year and you asked me to be nice to you, and you turn to your staff. amwee. and you have a amwee director. we wrote you a letter about it. do you have a director and do you work with the director >> of course we have an office of omwi. >> do you know who that person is? >> i cannot give you the name.
>> would you do me a favor and find out and would you send me a note back. that way we don't ever have to repeat this again. >> we can send you a note on that. >> thank you. i have had a lot of individuals from my district and a group of people who are here today and in the audience who have questions about fss. are you familiar with that program? >> family self-sufficiency. >> yes. one of the questions is, and one question is, what measures are instituted to ensure that public housing residents have fair and equal access to fss? >> anybody who comes and applies or asked for it, unless there is any particular reason to deny it. the problem is not so much the people are denied access to it as though that we don't have enough people asking for it. >> okay.
the next part and i represent columbus, ohio and i am very proud of my public housing authority. i meet with him on a regular basis and as you know i have been more than 20 something years working in public housing and relocation. one of the things that my president and ceo asked me to asked you is about increased funding for 11 to allow them to grow the program to serve more families both in public housing and in section 8. it is my understanding that much of the money goes with staffing versus service. i would like to ask you if you would look into that to see what we could do with that program. i can also tell you and madam chairwoman, i would like to enter this document into the record and it is about my district and all politics are local.
we have an outstanding fss program where we have had successful graduates, and we have had individual financial counseling from 116 different people. >> thank you. >> the other question is now that you have more time to think, my colleague asked you about those funds. have you had more time to think that you would proposal he not cut the funds or is that something you wanted to get an answer from after you consult with your team? and i have an answer but wasn't given an opportunity. first of all let me just say that columbus does a tremendous job with transition of a hostile -- housing and one of the best in the country. as far as that as i was saying, it has done a lot of good things. the problem is the formula is sometimes inappropriate. for instance, you give this
money to this group if the houses are built before 1940. a lot of those houses are like a million-dollar mansion. >> i hate to interrupt you but my time is running out and i have one more question that i want to ask. submit let me modify. >> thank you. i was talking to friends and colleagues and as we look at the number of teams, and the number of single moms, would you be interested in having a dialogue with the community leaders that talk to people who run programs like public housing and they feel we should be creating more things and helping our young folks in the housing area which helps them with their entire lifestyle. would you be interested in doing something like that? >> we are very interested in that and i had an opportunity to do some of that with senator collins recently. is an area we need attention. june is the person who heads up
the office of small disadvantaged and utilization. >> thank you. >> the gentleman from tennessee is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you madam chair and mister secretary for coming today. i also thank you for coming to memphis and to west tennessee last year. i met with constituents who have an interest in strengthening the low income housing tax credit. in the last congress i think there was an affordable housing credit. the tax credit in my opinion is a vital source for affordable housing. you have stated in the past that hud has taken steps to streamline projects, and utilize this particular tax credit. can you expand on that secretary carson? >> the low income tax credit is
probably responsible for the largest number of new affordable housing in the country. obviously we are interested in it. traditionally it has about an $8 billion budget that has been provided to treasury for that program. utilizing that along with the grant program, and along with the money that will be coming to the opportunity zones, it provides us with an unprecedented opportunity not only to increase affordable housing, but really to extend the economic opportunity and business opportunities, which then have a domino effect in terms of creating other economic activity around them. >> thank you mister secretary.
in the last congress when the affordable housing credit improvement act was introduced it seemed to have pretty good bipartisan support. one of the provisions in the bill would have created a 4% permanent credit rate and further credit expansion. what are your thoughts on a permanent 4% credit rate? >> for individuals or for communities? >> for both. >> obviously we do want to extend credit in a responsible way as much as we possibly can. being cognition of the fact that when we do it inappropriately we actually are not people any favors, but making their life more difficult when that happens. any ideas that you have for appropriate expansion of credit, we are always going to be in the market for doing that. our fha commissioner grant
montgomery is very open to that concept as well. cement thank you mister secretary. there has been a number of questions asked today about community development block grants and in my district and in memphis and west tennessee, the block grants in the past have been used successfully. given that the program was put in place during the ford administration, we can look at modernizing the program to some extent. what are your thoughts about modernizing to better incentivize if you will and streamlining and creating other policies that may create barriers to development projects? >> there are about 1210 communities that benefit from the program. they are the only ones. i think it really should be a
much more competitive program. i think a lot of things that could be done so that we really target the low and moderate income people and the way it was supposed to be done, it has been abused quite frankly. i would be very open to modernizing it and working with congress to get it done. >> if i could as it relates to the funding portion and what is known as formula b which in part is based on data from pre- 1940 housing. i know there are some communities that benefit from formula b and some that are harmed by it. would hud look at formula b to modernize it or better utilizing it or for other communities to tap into that format? >> absolutely, and i think a lot of other communities would be absolutely delighted.
it is not that i am against the concept of why it was created. i am or against what it has become. >> thank you madam chair and i yield back my time. >> the gentlewoman from michigan is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you chairman want -- chairwoman and thank you secretary carson for coming before this committee. i am not sure if you remember the first time that we met but it within the gymnasium of southwestern high school. i was excited that you took time to come and speak to the young people there. you walked the same hallway as i did, that those very young people did. you grew up in the same challenged neighborhood. secretary carson instead of helping the community you have decided to dial back on protection and resources that help those in need. this is been happening while
measures have been put in place to criminalize those that avail the very residents that we serve. i come in rut that's makeup for recently suing facebook for the use of facial recognition technologies. when asked about this lawsuit you stated that using the computer to limit a person's housing choice can be just as discriminatory as slamming the door in someone's face. yes or no, did you benefit from section 8 housing. >> that i what? >> benefit from section 8 housing? >> no i did not. cement you didn't. i have quote from the past when you was running for president of the united states you claim that you received some sort of voucher. >> i have never claimed that. other people have claimed that. >> i understand. would you be okay with facial recognition technology being used by law enforcement in the
neighbors that you grew up in including public housing? >> i think that we honestly have to adjust with the technology as it is rapidly advancing. it can be abused and of course that is one of our job to make sure it is not. >> secretary carson are you aware project green light in detroit? >> where the mayor is putting up the lights, >> it enables police to identify and track residence captured on hundreds of private and public camera. the same surveillance has expanded to include lower income housing. are you aware that the detroit housing commission that receives funding from hud is currently moved toward using the project and -- green light facial recognition technology? and i think the product is done some great good and the mayor has said it has solved a lot of the crime problems. it doesn't mean that we don't have to be very careful about how they can audit issues. >> so you don't oppose the use of it? >> i am not saying, i oppose the inappropriate use of it.
>> currently my colleague are introducing a bill that will ban the use of real-time facial recognition technology in federal funded housing, and hope that maybe your department can take a look at it and help us move that forward so that there is no abuse. we don't want any intentional discrimination against those of color. secretary carson, the neighbor that you grew up in and the one that believed in you and i before anyone else did is very much hurting because they have been feeding left behind. i believe that 71% of them in the state of michigan spend more than half of their income on housing costs and utilities. the condition hud housing is getting worse with a continued decrease in funding. that they as southwestern high school, do you remember what you told us? >> i don't remember, no. >> you said something pretty spectacular. you said that no matter if you are poor, you can succeed.
this seems very hard for our people secretary carson today, because the same programs that helped you and i are being scaled back. it is your turn to get back into remember where you came from and what you experience growing up in poor detroit. you keep saying that we are a nation of loss. i hope secretary carson that you and my colleagues who agree with you and that statement would also apply that to the president of the united states. madam chairman i asked for this article into a controversial surveillance program coming to detroit public housing submitted to the record and i yield the rest of my time. >> the gentleman from new york is recognized for five minutes. cement thank you madam chair and thank you mister secretary for your service to our country. first before i ask a question, i do want to point out the
reason why you would not recognize the term omwi and hud is that hud does not have omwi and there are other agencies that have it. as you point out you have the office a small disadvantaged business utilization with is seeking to collect the same goes. pretty unfair to asked who the director is for an entity that doesn't exist and hud. my apologies. >> thank you for clarifying that. >> in my district i talk to potential homeowners and the realtors and leaders that serve them one thing i hear over and over again is how credit worthy hard-working families cannot get into a new home as they are not liquid enough to make that the down payment even though they cannot otherwise afford to pay a mortgage. that is why the fha loan is so essential to long island is looking to purchase a new home that will help them build their own version of the american dream and most importantly help them stay on long island.
these are middle-class people with good jobs and good credit scores but maybe they are not liquid enough to put up a large down payment. in a region with some of the highest real estate values in the nation. we have seen traditional lenders like banks that are well regulated leave fha lending as a result of the use of the false claim act for pursuing them for allegedly defective loans. the false claim act was passed by that link it ministration to prevent horse theft and other fraud are in the civil war, but his injury and a half later is being is plotted by frivolous lawyers and these losses are scaring the lenders out of the fha market. overdose enforcement by the law from the previous it ministration encourages bad behavior instead of raining again. a misplaced, or stable should not be the grounds for a massive lawsuit against the one who is helping someone get an fha loan.
the threat of these losses have negative ramifications for fha and a hurting access to affordable housing in my district and nationwide. what are you doing to bring traditional lenders back into this important program? >> thank you for that question. thank you for the work that you are doing in your district of new york, and i have enjoyed our visit in the past. we have been working very closely with the office of the attorney general and with the justice department, because we recognize that they also have issues, and they do want to make sure that people don't get away with things. the problem is that it has been much too difficult to sort out what is a defect and what is not. we have re-examined the defect, and finding ways that we can clarify for everybody easily, and bring this into the digital
realm so that it is not just somebody sitting behind a desk. it makes it much easier if we use technology, it, to just get rid of a lot of the immaterial mistakes and not have them count toward action for that person. cement thank you for your work on this issue, and it is very important for my district and i know that you and your team are laser focused on it, which is something that my constituents are grateful for. it is something that is very personal to us is the issue of veteran homelessness, and i do want to thank you for your personal efforts on this particular issue. it is a huge challenge and any veteran who raises their hand and willing to lay down their life in defense of our freedom and liberty should have food on the table and a roof over their head with shoes on their feet. anything that you can do and
working with this committee and working with the chairwoman and the ranking member and working with you as well, if we can pursue any new victories during this congress to help get our veterans, just like we really want to get as a goal, we do want to get every american off of the street. the most personal one, is when the person is deployed into combat and they come home when they are on the street, which is outrageous. i thank you for your work on the veterans homelessness issue. i appreciate that hud and the doj are working together because of regulatory clarity on the issue that we just discussed is essentially here. we can make sure that bad government policy is not putting up roadblocks to heart american families who are pursuing the home ownership. i yield back. >> the gentleman from utah mister mac adams is recognized for five minutes. >> secretary carson thank you for being here today.
mister secretary, would you generally agree that policymakers make better policy decisions when they consider all data and facts before making a decision? >> yes. >> would you also agree that it's important for policymakers to be transparent and your from interested persons who may be affected by particular policy? >> yes. >> i am happy to hear that as a policy statement, and it is great to hear. i agree. mister secretary my home state of utah, the housing prices continued to climb dramatically as in many places around the country. our area is facing a shortage of thousands of homes. just for reference the median sale price of a new home in salt lake county in 2018 was up 61% from the median price in 2010. three other wasatch county homes have had a similar increase. since 2010 new households has
outnumbered housing units for over 40,000. this explains a lot toward the cost increase of housing. hugs mission of supporting housing access is vitally important to me and my constituents. i want to specifically asked you about a recent hud action that may make it harder for low and moderate income people to be able to purchase a home. mister secretary last month fha issued a mortgage letter claiming to clarify documentation requirements for loans originated that have down payment assistance from government entities. that letter issued new requirements for a number of entities, many who have been originating mortgages for years and suddenly was no longer able to do so. the result of this is the low and moderate income individuals in my district and in many districts around the country made no longer able to purchase
a home and no longer having access to some of these programs. i understand that this policy is currently under litigation and i respect that you probably cannot discuss the details of this litigation, but i do want to talk to you about some of the process which i think you can discuss. mister secretary what form of process and formal comment period did hud or fha undertake before they issue this letter. >> i am not aware of a public process. cement that is correct, that was no public process. mister secretary hud recently announced they would direct the government -assisted programs to rulemaking. what changed hud to warrant a decision not to advance rulemaking and instead to issue this guidance through a letter? >> i think it was the feeling of those involved that it was creating damage to people, and
they wanted them to understand what the parameters of being able to offer this kind of assistance was. also it should be done within someone's own jurisdiction, and outside of one's jurisdiction is when the problem started. >> i would go back to the hud policy statement that policymakers make better decision with a consider all data and facts before making a decision and it would be important to include policymakers and other interested people before adopting a particular policy. that is why think i was disappointed is vested with the negative impact, and understanding there maybe rational reasons for looking at this and proceeding with the letter before doing a rulemaking as have been previously promised. >> your point is well taken. >> thank you mister secretary. it also may negatively affect
tribal government entities more than other housing finance agencies. you have any evidence that these loans are performing worse than other loans? >> i am not familiar with the data that was used. >> i think that is because there is no data. hud does not collect taxpayer id to differentiate between a travel or tribal fha. mister secretary i appreciate the role that you must play in protecting taxpayers, but if you do not currently collect the appropriate data to judge the success of a dpa program, then perhaps we should collect that data before moving forward with this policy. i you back. >> i agree with you actually. >> open if you do agree we can revisit this and look at engaging the public in a process before continuing. thank you. >> the gentleman from ohio mister gonzales is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you madam chair and doctor carson for being here
for your attention and all of your service to the country. i want to start by commending you for taking on facebook, and uncovering what i think most americans knew the details of and would be sickened by. could you briefly sort of describe what you found and kind of give an update to the status of the investigation? >> as you know it is in federal court now, so i cannot do too much. i will say in general that they are able to collect enormous amounts of information about people and people have no idea it is being collected. the real problem is that when you use that information to discriminate against people. to either deny information to them, or to send information to selected groups of people based on the various demographic data that you collect.
this is just going to become a progressive problem if we don't nip it in the bud. i see this as something that is going to be very important in our society. >> absolutely. would it be fair to say that what you have found is essentially, if you are a realtor, and you want to target ads on facebook, you could essentially completely lock out individuals based on race, gender, zip code, and basically anything that you won't using the data and tools that facebook provides. >> correct. >> i would consider that quite frankly some of the most aggressive redlining that this country has ever seen in that digital age. >> technical redlining. >> again i do want to commend you for your work and cracking down on this abusive practice. you sort of alluded to in your first response that this problem
is going to become more profound and i agree with you as more of our lives moved to the digital realm. could you talk a little bit about any discussions you have had internally or investigation that you are undertaking or thinking of undertaking with respect to twitter and google and additional platform security? >> we have been in contact with them, and we have asked for certain information from them. and i reserve the right to pursue it further depending what the investigation shows. >> great, and i look forward to following that because i think it is incredibly important. there was a point when we thought that these platforms was essentially going to be liberation technology. it wasn't that long ago. i think what we have seen over time is set in the wrong hands that actors can use them for a very nefarious method.
>> absolutely. >> again i commend you for it. last question and then i will turn it over to you. is there anything that you do want to share to with wrist fonts with respect to -- >> you know, i share from my heart my concern about the country. you know we have a very strong country. and the only people who can bring it down are ourselves. if we continue to allow us to be made into enemies. instead of big able to use our collect ability and talents to focus on the problems that we have and to solve those problems. these are things that we are capable of doing, this is america, a great nation. and you know, if you look back at the early part of the country, a lot of people are critical of us, you
can't -- the vanderbilt and rockefellers and all the people with all this money. you can't have a government like that they say. and you have an overarching government that is echoing but what they did not realize is the first people that were in the country, instead of being greedy and passing money down from one generation to the next, what they did is help the transcontinental railroad and the textile mills in the factories that allowed us to have the most dynamic middle-class the world had ever known which rapidly propelled us to the pinnacle of the world. it did not stop there. they built schools and universities and libraries and use them for things that really helped to create the american dream. it is about providing opportunities for fellow citizens because the most precious resource are the people. and we develop the people and we will be successful. >> i yield back. >> the gentlewoman
from new york. is recognized for 5 minutes. >> thank you secretary carson for joining us today. as secretary carson in december 2017 you deliver the keynote at the manhattan institute where you stated quote the war on poverty sometimes conflict with the war on drugs. which often dealt harshly with nonviolent offenders kicked taking men from their families and disproportionally affecting minority communities. are these your words? >> yes. >> you dallas at the war on drugs disproportionally impacted black communities and community of color despite marijuana and other drug use income comparable to white communities. >> -- >> i see here, are you also aware that when a formerly incarcerated person is homeless, the 60% chance that they will be re- arrested. but if that same person had access
to housing, it dropped to 29%. >> housing is one of the factors that is beneficial in preventing. >> i am concerned here that the war on drugs has not been solely limited to incarceration and the negative impact of the war on drugs is something -- but something we have legislative rippling effects that awful that are codified in the housing system are you aware of hud's one strike real which -- for single incident of criminal activity no matter how minor with no holistic review? >> there is the ability of local jurisdictions to alter that. >> but federally, this provision still persists, correct? >> as far as i know it is still >> so a person could be stop and
frisk and found a position of a small amount of marijuana and then be evicted or have the entire family evicted from public housing. >> that is a possibility. >> are you aware that owners of public housing authority can subject tenants to test for alkaline drugs? >> they can require that yes. >> and i see here that we also have no-fault policies where an entire family can be evicted for the criminal activity of a guest of the household. even without the knowledge of any wonder that housel. are you aware of that provision? >> the use of such activity is extremely limited if ever use cases >> that they are still codified in federal law correct? >> on the federal books as far as i know, it on the books for many, many years. >> do you support reversing some of these provisions? >> which provisions? >> let's say the no- fault policy?
>> i can talk about that, on an individual case, if you have an example that you want to talk about. >> let's say would you support being able to move some of these policies over to a more holistic review you yourself asked for a case-by-case consideration. should that case-by- case consideration be codified in federal law instead of having blanket one strike or no- fault policies? >> i am always in favor of more flexibility. >> i am happy to hear that as secretary carson, i would like to highlight, there's been much talk about the issue with public housing and it is horrifying, the conditions that are happening in -- and horrifying that people are living through winter without heat and opening their of us to try to make sure they're able to sleep through the night. but i think it's important to notice that this is not about throwing more money at the problem, this is
spending money on the problem. public housing across the country has been starved by members of congress for over 15 years. that deficit has built up for many, many years. which is led to inner-city alone of $32 billion price tag to make sure that we get people basic heat, hot water and so one. and i don't think that no matter what policy changes we make, you can take it away from a child, not understand why they can't or don't eat. i think that is exactly what's happening with the public housing program. chairwoman i would like to submit to the record of the new york times article and what it would take to fix newark's public housing. >> without a injection, it is awarded. >> i would like to make of note that the provisions that we want to reverse including one strike and no-fault policy are being introduced in our bill on the fair
chance of housing act. thank you very much. >> and the gentleman from tennessee, mr. rose, five minutes. >> thank you chairwoman waters. thank you secretary carson for being with us today. and for your frank testimony today. i can't help but acknowledge your great personal life story as i began today and know that you came up under very tough circumstances and through the leadership of folks like your mother, you are able to overcome those. i am wondering though as you know had a couple of years in government service him a as secretary of housing and urban development, do you find the challenges with self serving in this way to be tougher than those that you experienced as a neurosurgeon and very successfully taking many problems? >> well, i can tell you is a neurosurgeon the operating room was a haven.
to get away from all the problems of the world. but you know, one of the great things about medicine is you are able to intervene in people's lives and get them a second chance. and you know despite the difficulties of this job and the attacks and criticism, there is an opportunity to change people's lives. to change the trajectory of our nation, to change the way that we do things. to go from just taking two people to actually setting people on a trajectory to success. >> you talked earlier about the situation due to planned improvements in public housing and sometimes people are displaced and how very often they find that after they have moved on they find a better solution. i wonder if there's any lessons that you might have learned in the department has learned from seeing that and that might help guide us toward
helping people move beyond public housing. >> well, the thing you think that i have seen is when we develop communities in a holistic way, it almost doesn't matter where they are. you know, you provide sustenance for what people need in order to develop, one of the things that i learned from the hud nash program is this is for veterans and veteran homelessness, hud provides the housing and the va provide a wraparound service, it doesn't work when we just give housing. it doesn't work when we just give the wraparound services. but when we put both together, it has a tremendous impact in terms of getting those veterans back to being self- sufficient again. that is the same policy that we want to use today for the people who are being assisted in housing. >> in tennessee we have a very successful housing finance agency, the tennessee development housing
agency, the the ahca. because they're highly integrated into local communities and have staff who understand both national programs and state run programs, they are able to have great success in affordably and affordable housing folks in the fifth district in tennessee in general. they do not utilize a one-size-fits-all approach, is the best help to the individual constituent i tend to think that local problems often require local solutions. in fact they usually do. the housing issues in memphis are not the same as the ones in nashville just like the issues in new york city are not the same as for my constituents in the sixth district of tennessee. for example, the manufactured housing may not make sense in manhattan but they are significant or an integral part of role housing in tennessee. how can we best leverage these
state finance agencies in trying to adjust the affordable housing shortage in our country? >> i think we just have to keep an open mind as you said. brecca i think that the needs will be different in every different district. we also need to concentrate on building techniques and modernizing and june 1-5 there will be actually a showcase of new housing techniques on the national mall. i invite all of you to come to it. there 3d printed housing and manufactured housing and all kinds of new tech nixon materials. some of which cost considerably less than what we do now. integrating those kinds of things into her housing policy i think will be something that will help us out tremendously. >> did you share my view that local problems require local solutions and as a country, we need to take responsibility at the community and local level rather than simply solving
every problem by spending more and more federal dollars? >> i'd only share it i enthusiastically endorse it. it has to be all of us working together. not pointing fingers at each other but working together. >> thank you and i yield back. >> thank you, the gentlewoman from north carolina ms. adams is recognized for 5 minutes. >> thank you madam chair and thank you secretary carson for being here today. we have had some discussions today about the choice vouchers and many public housing agencies have waitlist and my district and charlotte, north carolina in mecklenburg we have more than 30,000 people on the waitlist for housing choice. that includes women and children and families, people with disabilities, seniors, young people and the list goes on. if you can give me a yes or no to this , i have a couple of other questions does do believe the
federal government is dedicating in the funding and resources to ensure that individuals who were most in need of housing can access and affordable place to live? >> would i love to be able to get a lot more of course. >> so given these shortage of public housing and federal rental assistance, why did the budget request for fy 2020 zero programs programs like public housing capital funds and homes and you only asked for a $.7 billion less than 2019? >> because we have to make tough choices in a budget because we have a $22 billion deficit . and we have children and grandchildren and people who will be coming after that who will be responsible for that. so real compassion includes them as well. >> so, when we talk about the housing choice vouchers, is there any reason you would not ask for
more funding for that? >> for the reason, would i love to be able to have enough for everybody, to have more, that would be great. >> let me ask this question in terms of the vouchers. in 2016 we had 126 were 127 people in charlotte that received the voucher , 45 of those expired, that means that the individual is searching for housing during that 420 days i understand is -- so they would have to give them back and turned away because the landlords and property managers don't want to rent to folks with section 8 vouchers. so i think there may be some income source discrimination, think that is unfair and it is plain and simple that is unfair. so given this data, do you believe that you need a federal law prohibiting
this income discrimination? >> i think we certainly need to be looking at what are the impediments for people to accept those vouchers. that is exactly what we are doing right now. if we go through that process and it is still a problem, maybe a federal law may be necessary. >> what about in terms of the folks that have to give them back, is there way that the timeframe maybe four months, obviously it's not enough, in some cases. >> there are hardship exemptions in existence with can be utilized in those situations. >> okay, i have a few more minutes. since you rolled back the affirmatively furthering fair housing rule, what specific actions are you currently taking to ensure guarantees are fulfilling their fair housing applications to sacral tackle segregation and housing discrimination? >> when i took
office, there were 600 to 600 to discriminatory actions, we are down to about 100 now. we have gone through all of those and in addition to taking care of the new ones that have come in, we have about 8000 a year. so it would've been extremely active in pursuing those. i have made it very clear to all the organizations, if anyone knows of discriminatory activity that is going on that we are not already addressing, please let us know. >> have you received any complaints at this point? >> like you said we get about 8000 a year. we deal with them as they come in. >> do you know how many you resolved? >> the resolution is about 80%. >> thank you, i yield back. >> the gentleman from wisconsin, recognized for 5 minutes. >> thank you chair
waters and thank you secretary carson for coming today. i want to talk about opportunity. in southeast wisconsin, with a handful of opportunity zones in particular in the city of janesville, racing in kenosha, there's a lot of opportunity in these opportunity zones. people are excited about the possibility that they bring, to bring rejuvenation into the city's. can you comment on what you are working on at hud in supporting qualified opportunity funded investments and housing? >> yes, we actually have a lot of components into working on this. for instance, when it comes to economic empowerment and development, the commerce department is spearheading the activity, when it comes to entrepreneurship, small business is spearheading the activity. when it comes to education and
workforce development, both the labor department and education department and when it comes to safe communities and informative concerns, department of justice is spearheading that. and input when it comes to assessment, of what's going on in measurement, the council of economic advisers is spearheading that. so we have a number of different spearheads tackling the problems. >> i appreciate that. i would ask you if you schedule permits to come to southeast wisconsin and explore firsthand what opportunities these opportunity zones present to some of the communities in the areas. >> i have been there before. racine in particular. at sc johnson, their good things going on. >> we would love to have you back. i want to shift gears and talk about state and local barriers to development. so secretary carson, many of my colleagues seem to
believe that the answer to her housing is simply the amount of money we spent. i think we are coming to a bipartisan consensus and it is emerging and we are recognizing the role of state and local barriers to development. in particular, those that are restricting access to housing. strict land-use laws, and places in particular like new york and san francisco and los angeles are making it hard to develop or deliver affordable housing. and this is pricing low income families out of their neighborhoods. and makes it hard for the striving and people to move to a place where jobs are actually plentiful. can you talk about the high regulatory cost and how it is making it harder for hud and local housing authorities to serve those in need? >> yeah, when you look at zoning regulations and you
take a place like los angeles, 70-80% of the land is owned for single-family housing for certain amount of property. and then you throw on top of that all the regulatory barriers, including recently the need for some solar input. are you kidding me? so this just piles up and that's why you see people who make $50,000 $70,000 a year living on the street in tents. this can be resolved. but it needs to be resolved with federal, state and local authorities. i understand that mayor garcetti has recently begun to look at allowing accessory dwelling units in which will certainly help the situation. those are the kinds of things that we have to be looking at. as i said, we can solve this problem. if we don't make it political, let's
use what we have and solve his. >> i appreciate those comments. it's an incredibly important topic and we need to continue to look at the local aspect of these lands zoning. these roles that are driving up the cost of housing and very particular communities in the united states. i appreciate your time today. i yield back. >> thank you, the gentle from new jersey, mr. gottheimer is recognized for 5 minutes. >> thank you charm woman waters and thank you mr. secretary for being here today. one of the issues that i particularly focused on is the tightening of the credit box. i know that you my colleagues on both sides of the aisle, we all agree that we need to expand access to credit in a responsible manner so that those who deserve to be in a home can be. we also know that hud is a critical role in getting people in homes. secretary carson in your opinion what is the biggest factor that has caused the credit box to shrink and
what is hud doing to combat it? >> fear i think, risk, fear of risk and looking at things that have happened historically. whether we, what are we doing, we are trying to expand the number of people that get credit by alleviating some of their anxiety. i just mentioned what we were doing with the golf claims act so we can bring more people who can provide credit. to the market. >> have you seen a shift? >> i think it is starting to ship, absolutely. it will take a while. for people to trust what's going on. but they will see over the course of time that we are consistent. >> thank you. also let's ask about a new extension of credit , expanding and started talk about this from one level down. i don't have loans that you covered but in your testimony specifically you said that you notice a greater
number of hours looking for fha loans with higher debt and lower credit scores. how is using closer scrutiny before issuing these mortgages and to mitigate risk, how is hud currently working to strike a balance between promoting access to credit via fha loans and managing risk? >> we try to look at data. and using that, rather than just using you know ideology. when it comes to issuing credit. you know, it really comes back from my days in medicine. where evidence made a lot of difference. that's the difference between the fact that at the last turn of the century, before 2000, the average age of death was in the 60s. in 2000 it was approaching 80. the main difference is that the medical profession began to use evidence in their policy that made a huge difference in longevity.
>> and when you said closer scrutiny, in your testimony, how do you is that or how is the data used differently, how does that process change if you don't mind me asking? >> you look at things, you look at best practices. look at things that have worked in some areas. you say, why is that working and you try to dissect that. and then you see if you can make that more broadly applicable. >> great and thank you very much for your time today. i yield back. >> the gentleman from texas, recognized for 5 minutes. >> thank you madam chairman and thank you secretary carson. is renting you have not talked to that that you would like to discuss? >> oh boy, that opens up a big box. but i will tell you the thing that i am most concerned about is the affordability. we have more than 8
million families in the united states who pay more than 50% of their income for housing. you know, we need to really focus a lot of attention on that and get this problem solved. >> you think spending money will solve the problem? >> spending money is not the solution. again, getting to the ideology of the price increases. and what can we do that will enable us to build more housing. more affordable housing. >> several of my colleagues have mentioned inaccessible, have you met with leadership of this committee and with my colleagues across the aisle to discuss their ideas? >> i have tried. the chairwoman has not had time to meet with me but i have met with several others
several other members and we have made some good progress. >> i would encourage those discussions to continue and i thank you for your work in the hard work that you have done in your organization and for what is to come to my thank you, i yield back. >> thank you the gentle woman from virginia ms. nixon is recognized for 5 minutes. >> thank you madam chair and take your secretary carson for joining us today. as you may be aware, the last week the house past the equality act which includes a lot of protections for the lgbtq community but for our purposes one of the things i'm pleased about is that we are explicit explicitly included the lgbtq community as part of the fair housing act, nondiscrimination protection. do you agree with this inclusion? >> i certainly agree with nondiscrimination. and with being fair to every single individual in our society. >> so you are are you would approve
of the inclusion of lgbtq community as a part of the fair housing act detection? in protecting them from discrimination in housing? >> if you want to include them as one of the protected classes i think that is something that congress will be responsible for. >> very good. i guess one of your responsibilities would have to do with the rulemaking and the rules for hud and inclusion within hud, correct? >> and i have responsibility for everyone is treated fairly. >> and march 20 17th your agency removed links the key resource documents informing emergency shelters on best practices for serving transgender people facing homelessness. menu with your proposed policy that would have required hud funding and hud funded emergency shelters for notices informed them of their right to be free of anti-lgbtq discrimination under head regulations. right? >> creating a situation where there is more local
jurisdictional control. >> you remove that guidance from the site and it is not been replaced. >> that is correct. >> last month when you testified before the house appropriations subcommittee about hud's withdrawal of the scottish doctor and you said they were not needed and that the equal access rule was in place. correct? >> the rules from 2012 and 2016, adequately provides for fairness for all communities. >> those reels are still in place? >> yes, they have not been removed. >> you stated we have not made any attempt to change them is that correct? >> we have not change the rules. >> that was the case when you testified in appropriations, is that the case today? >> that is still the case. >> can you assure the committee that you will not make any or that hud does not have any current or future plans to eliminate the equal access rule during rulemaking? >> i am not going to say -- what we
will do in the future about anything. i don't know what we will do in the future. >> are you currently anticipating doing that? >> i am not currently anticipating changing the role. >> what is your agency done to ensure that the equal access rule is implemented and that recipients of hud funding are aware of their responsibilities under equal access real? >> we have left the rules up from 2012 and 2016. and we have made it very clear that we will continue to enforce fairness for everyone. and when something is brought to our attention that was not fair, we will deal with it. >> so you're not being proactive, you will be reactive on this issue? >> we are being very proactive in terms of making sure that discrimination is not occurring. >> secretary carson you just testified that you took on the guidance right? >> the guidance was not necessary, the guidance was providing a lot of regulatory input, federal thumb on
everything as opposed to allowing local jurisdictions to make the rules. >> based on the 2012 and 2016. >> so you don't think it's appropriate for hud to do that at the national level? >> not on that issue. >> so you have removed the guidance , you testified you have no plans to eliminate the equal access real. but you also are not proactively enforcing it your waiting for complaints and filter the will to hide and then you will deal with it, is that what you're saying? >> know one of the things i'm saying is if you want to do something different about the definition of the gender, that is a congressional duty. >> thank you, kent i have no further questions, i yield back. >> the gentleman from virginia is recognized for 5 minutes.
>> thank you madam chair moment. secretary carson i present your taking the time to answer rushes today. having living public housing you bring an important perspective, to be the housing challenges we face today and we are grateful to have you here. in your june 20 testimony before the financial cerveza, you mentioned the fha having to deal with what you called very archaic i.t. last thursday had received a federal information technology innovation award for advancing data analytics transformation. could you expound the sum of the things hud has been working on over the last year to modernize old i.t. systems and secondly, in your opinion, what is the specific things still need to be done in order to bring hud i.t. programs of today? >> you know, still a lot of our platforms are 40 years old. so technology has been left behind. what we have done is we have been able to create a
dashboard that gives of real-time information about where our grant money is. and how it is being spent. this allows us to provide more flexibility to the various jurisdictions. so that is something that i am excited about. in fha, you know thanks to the congress, we have been able to at least start updating you know our information technology platforms. it is going to take you know quite a bit more. but we're getting there and that is the important thing because you know, we don't want to fall behind all the other services. that puts a lot of taxpayer money at risk and it also makes us inefficient. and that is something we want to change as quickly as possible. >> thank you because i think 40 years ago i was playing pond so i'm glad there's some dead man's advancements going
on. thank you for that. another topic i would like to address is opportunity zones in this because i have the biggest district and virginia. it's bigger than new jersey. we have the most even though we have one of the 11 districts i think we have 18% of the opportunity zones in the entire state. they were created in the tax cuts and jobs act of 2017 to stimulate economic growth and job creation. could you discuss some of the things hud is doing to incentivize as far as incentivizing economic growth and low income communities and you see the criteria for designating opportunity zones changing or expanding in the future? >> yeah, we are providing preference points, for people who are willing to go into opportunity zones. and you know you can buy something there, you can build something big, you can invest in
something there, there are a number of mechanisms that you can utilize. we are also providing expertise , people who can help people create programs that will attract other resources into the area. and ways to partner with entities that already exist within the opportunity zone. >> as everybody knows the we have the opportunity zones especially with the fifth district of virginia having so many. we don't have a lot of time but i think i have one more question. i thank you again very much for answering this question. over the last several years we have seen a dramatic increase in natural disasters. in my district particularly we have been affected by multiple hurricanes and flooding. in your opinion, how would you rank hud's response to the most recent disasters? >> we have had unprecedented number of disaster since i
became hud secretary. i hope i have not caused them. the fact of the matter is, i think the response has been good. i have never satisfied, that's why i am always asking, is or something else we can be doing to get these funds out faster. but do recognize that hud is the long-term entity when it comes to a disaster. sba, fema, army corps of engineers, those are the short term responders. having said that, i still want to see the process spidered up so the that the process so in certain arenas, good concept, taking out unnecessary steps, a very good concept. and, i would personally like to
get it down to the disaster, six months , you've got everything you need. >> thank you secretary carson and i yield my time. >> the gentlewoman from california ms. porter is recognized for 5 meniscus >> good afternoon mr. carson. argue in favor or opposed to adjusting the interest curtailment penalties schedule for fha loans that are in default? >> i don't know that i can say broadly, i think you have to look at specific cases, and in some cases i might be in favor of that and i might not. >> okay, do know what the interest rate schedule is in fha and how it's different from gmp's? >> well, we tend to try to maintain a lower interest rate
than fha. >> i'm not asking about interest rate a mask about venture interest curtailment penalties. >> explain. >> so, fha uses different services and conveyance procedures then gse do. so the result of this is the cost of services, mortgage servicing at fha for nonperforming mortgage is three times the cost of doing the equivalent service at gse. for nonperforming loan. that triple cost in servicing which then has the effect of reducing the credit availability to the american people, it drive-up servicing cost then servicers overlay the cost overlays and make the loans more expensive for the very homeowners that fha is designed to serve. my question i'm trying to get at is why is fha, to use the term that we can understand, why are they trying to -- i have not had
discussions about that particular issue but i will look it up. find out what's going on. >> as you look it up i would like you to get back to make to explain the disparity in reo rates, do know what an reo is? >> and reo? >> and reo. >> real estate -- >> organization. >> real estate owned, that's what happens when the property goes to foreclosure we call an reo. in fha loan has much higher reo as the goes to foreclosure rather than loss of litigation which is non-foreclosure altar. i would like to know why we are having more foreclosures than people losing their homes and disruption to their communities and their neighborhoods than fha and we are at the gse. >> i would be extremely happy if you would like, to
have you work with the people who do that. >> mr. carson respectfully that was my day job before i came to congress. now it is my job to ask you to work with me. >> i have people that can dash my >> i spent decades working with people at hud working on this problem. what i would like for you to do is take this back to fha and asked the posts at fha that since 2007 i have been writing about the problems in fha servicing, i'm a huge fan of that fha. and a believer in the mission and i'm a champion for them. are you? >> of course i believe in the mission. >> are you champion for the institution? the organization? >> very much so. >> so, let me make sure you understand. when a loan, the most common outcome on an fha loan goes into default is reo. there's that kind of
conveyance process, are you familiar with this? >> i know about conveyance is the >> so let me ask you, what actions is hud taking to change the conveyance process on fha to address the loss recovering differential between fha loans and gsu money? >> again, getting way down in the weeds. >> it's real american people out of their houses. there are literally in the weeds. >> i understand. i am very happy to put you in contact with the people who deal with that. if i got down in the weeds on every issue i wouldn't get very far. >> i appreciate it but this is been a problem for years. the urban institute issued a major report on this and i will be happy to send you a copy. >> i would appreciate you sending that to my attention. >> given these problems, the outcomes, the outcome is that fha is the leading cause of lighted homes in the united states.
what can you do about that? do you understand the relationship between the light blight and the servicing problems? >> i understand light is a huge problem dash my >> and it comes from your agencies inaction on servicing? >> i'm not sure i'm willing to accept that the fha is the cause of all the blight that we have. >> i hope you feel differently after you read the report. thank you. >> the gentleman from illinois, mr. garcia is recognized for 5 minutes. >> thank you madam chair. and secretary carson thank you for being here with us today. and engaging us in conversations about hud. i want to begin with a proposal pending before this committee. i am known as the safe housing and family at. it is recognized and that people should take action in the aftermath of 13 deaths that have
occurred in federally subsidized housing since 2003, including as recently as february when anthony and gwendolyn fleming died of carbon monoxide poisoning at hickory hollow property of cooperative a hud subsidized housing complex and wayne, michigan. near to your childhood home. with the 3rd and 4th death to occur this year. in april as you know, hud has been developing a real to put an end to this these preventable death by requiring a co2 detector and public housing. but it could be many months before that rule is finalize. as the process goes. on friday a story ran on nbc news website in which a hud spokesperson is quoted as saying quote congress can fix this by passing legislation requiring carbon monoxide detectors for those living in
hud housing units where detectors are needed. secretary carson that legislation is before this committee today, this is the public hearing. the hud family safe housing for families act would codify the rule so that you are developing into law and would provide $10 million in funding over 10 years to carry out the objective of stopping avoidable deaths like the ones i mentioned. this is a double the amount that you or that hud announced yesterday where you made available. secretary carson would you support the safe housing for families act? >> as i have mentioned to you in the past, i am 100% for getting this carbon monoxide issue settled and i appreciate your help in helping getting that done. as quickly as we can get it done. >> great, thank you secretary, i accept
your endorsement. to change gears and returning back to the topic we were discussing previously, the mixed status real, i would like to share with you a story about joyce altman she was raised in chicago and has always struggled to have clean green, safe and affordable housing. she has experienced homelessness and when not homeless, rented from slumlords. a landlord broken their home and turned off her electrical services. she has lived in holdings that were foreclosed and then taken over by banks and in homes with dangerous conditions. she has been on the waiting list in the chicago housing authority for over five years. with an estimated shortfall of about 3.6 million affordable rental homes in the country and every day that hud does not have the resources to fulfill that shortfall, joyce and many people like her suffer. according to your agencies own analysis,
implementing replacing mixed status families under your proposal will increase the federal cost of subsidizing units. can you explain to joyce why she should remain on the waiting list so that hud can pay more money to implement the rule that acknowledges is unnecessary? >> the people who were on the waiting list tend to have even greater needs than the ones who are not on the waiting list. which sort of bolsters the point. there were those of the people who perhaps should be getting housing assistance. but i want to reemphasize the point that what we are doing is following the law of the land. when we begin to pick and choose which laws we will enforce, i think we lead to chaos. and congress doesn't like the rule, they have the power to change it. >> thank you for that. let me finish with this secretary. hud regulatory impact analysis states that quote
perhaps the likeliest scenario would be that hud would have to reduce the quantity and quality of assisted housing in response to higher cost. my colleagues will do some follow-up questions on that. so when you claimed that evicting eligible children from their homes will free up space to those on the waiting list, like joyce, that simply isn't true. it is not consistent with what your staff analysis, career staff at hud has concluded. >> again, but they have concluded is that the reason the cost will be higher is because the people are more needy. there on the waiting list. >> thank you, madam chair. >> the gentleman from texas, garcia is recognized for 5 minutes. >> thank you madam chair. first i would like to say that both two witness and in fact to a couple of members from both sides of the aisle, that i have family
i have found the word illegal to be very offensive and i wish it people would stop using that word. someone who has a deeply held religious beliefs, that we are all god's children and i also have a firm belief that no human being is legal. the madam chair i would hope that in the future we would discourage any such testimony or reference to that term, it is offensive and it's something that should frankly should be stricken from the record. in line with that i want to follow up mr. secretary, some questions in the exchange that you had both with mr. williams and mr. vargas. did you just make it clear to the record with a yes or no that right now is the law stands that non- citizen's are not eligible for public housing? >> people who are not here legally, the difference between non- citizen. >> the question is non-citizen. >> there are some non-citizens who
are eligible. >> there are some? >> can you tell me which? >> if you in the united states legally, then and you are not a citizen then you are a non-citizen. that doesn't make you illegal. >> right, it is really difficult for anyone in the housing authority official to determine who is here authorized or unauthorized. there so many different categories of immigration law. i frankly do not see how anybody would be able to determine if that level whether someone is here legally or illegally but the point is not about the legal or illegal the point is it shouldn't be called illegal here, you were here unauthorized or so many people that are here against their will, whether human trafficking, through drug cartels , they may have had an expiration of their visa. again, it underscores my point, there is no way for someone to determine in the housing authority level if anyone is
illegal. because in fact, isn't it true that you prorate the rent down? >> it is true that you cannot prorate a roof over someone's head. >> that is not the question? >> you cannot prorate the rent because there someone there, that is unauthorized? that person does not get that portion of the rent? >> the concept of prorating makes no sense in this context. >> the question is, isn't that a fact that it is the process you use? >> you may call the prorating but does not make sense is a vigil what you call it? >> i call that giving aid and assistance to people who are here illegally. >> it is interesting to me because your statute will call the prorating and everyone else does. let's go to another point about cost. are you going to be able to reimburse all the thousand of the authorities if this rule was put in place, for the millions of dollars to get a cost with these children? >> what fascinates
me is how you can be so interested in the symptoms about wanting to get to the root cause. >> or i'm the one asking the questions with all due respect. this $13 million cost that is an estimate, only an estimate if these infections, it will hud provide any funding to the local authorities if the authority is put in place. >> all of hud's current programs are in place. >> so you will share 55,000 children from being with their families to then to a homeless status, what will happen with these children? have you thought this program through quick >> maybe what will happen with them is that you and congress will solve the problem. >> sir, it is your problem now, it is your solution to try to get them mixed status will. i'm asking if you thought this through, again this it lustration is separating children, will you keep track of them or be able
to put them somewhere? or will they be on the streets as little urchins? >> as i mentioned, multiple times, we have a six month that can be requested that can be renewed two times which gives you 18 months. >> i take it you have no plans on how you will handle this. >> they have 18 months which is enough time for congress to engage and what is needed to be done to solve the problem. >> sir, i think it is your responsibility because it's your role and i would hope that with the separation of children policy would be a little bit better thought through. the last one has been a total disaster. at the border. moving on quickly, i am concerned that you all have hud regulations that call a project what they must have to make it environmentally sound. hot water, hold water, heat heating. it sounds like in texas and in houston, it is really extremely hot, it does not include air- conditioning. why is not air-
conditioning as important as heating and new york work >> i think it is very important. >> why is not included? >> it is in the process of being worked on right now. >> keep me posted on that. thank you. >> the gentlewoman from massachusetts. recognized for 5 minutes. >> thank you madam chair. secretary chris and i have waited a long time for this moment. but the residence of my district the southern district have been waiting for longer. your agency to do its job. how was the across the aisle earlier and a critical level of passion, even the outrage that we've expressed on the side of the aisle, i make no apologies for that. this matter is very personal. let me be clear, housing is a fundamental human right. and the placement of family should be regarded as a public health crisis that it is good that mr. secretary your pining work and pediatric neurology is a story. and it is something
to be commended and so it pains me that your gifted hands and mind are doing the bidding and sharing the water of what i believe is one of most morally bankrupt presidents in our nations history. increasing rent, evicting families, you mentioned the operating room was a safe haven, away from all the troubles of the world. safe haven. that's exactly what a home should be. what every single person in in particular our children deserve. today you are not here is a doctor or if not surgeon general which i think might be better suited for your talents but as the official task leading the agency overseeing the nations crumbling housing stock. for that, i believe you were unqualified. you said this was.apolitical matter. but it does seem that political views are being played out on the policies that are being rolled out every single day. when you implied that people are living in public housing because of the desire to be
self-sufficient, questioning the work at the. when we are eliminating the stock but not increasing supply. people will in the seventh district will have to work 84 hours to afford a decent one bedroom in fair market rent. doris hoppe a formal representative of my district and was the first african- american woman holds the position of head of the vha, the first public housing to lead the public housing agency in a major city. being poor is not a character flaw. i agree. again, given your medical background perhaps you can weigh in on the health consequences of failing to invest in safe housing. mr. secretary since i'm short on time, yes or no, is stable and safe housing and social determinants of health? check it sounds like you have not been here and heard my testimony. >> please answer the question. yes or no? is stable and how
safe housing a determinant of health? >> know housing that housing is important. >> yes or no? >> no question that it is a part. >> it is well documented that the health problems such as lead poisoning and asman trips and falls on the senior population can be linked to substandard housing conditions. combine conditions result in aliens of dollars a year in healthcare cost. many of those risk of developing condition reside in public in federally assisted housing. yes or no, is less left unaddressed do you believe substandard public housing conditions pose a risk to physical and emotional health? if left unaddressed. >> you asked me so many questions yourself. >> you don't get to dictate my line of questioning, you are a smart man. you understand the question please answer. >> yes or no. if left unaddressed which i believe they are unaddressed because the budget does not reflect the need, do you believe the substandard public housing conditions pose a risk to physical mental and emotional health? >> you already know
the answer. >> yes or no? >> you know the answer. >> yes or no, i know the answer to you know the answer, yes or no? >> reclaiming my time. >> you don't get to do that. >> the time belongs to the judicial lady can >> if we don't invest in the surface today we will pay the price of people's health. what is this administration's response? cuts. section 202 housing for elderly and section 811. housing for disabilities and the complete elimination of the public housing capital fund. these policies are devoid of empathy and humanity. i went to get to's civics. a mother and a grandmother living in my district and she raised her children and now she has her rent children and there's a thick mold on the wall. her son was hospitalized because a bone tumor in his arm. he needs surgery. he won't get it
because the family must have a sanitary stable housing condition first. their home literally poses a risk of postop injury and infection. her question to you is what do they do? what can they become? yes or no, do they deserve to live in the conditions because they are poor? >> yes or no, do they deserve to live in these conditions because they are poor? >> you know very well -- >> would you want your mother live in public housing? yes or no? >> you know very well -- >> which you allow your grandmother to live in public housing under these conditions? >> it would be nice if you would stop -- >> the gentleman from florida. you are recognized for 5 minutes. >> thank you madam chair, it's a great day in america. not to welcome these two to the committee. when i was five years old we lost
everything, the house everything. we moved a number of times. six in the family, and -- my father had to recover and eventually you know we built a house. i still own that house today after they are gone. i do believe that the people work hard enough, you know and they want to survive, they can survive, the family can do that without government help because there was no government help back then. one of the things that i would like to do as you said earlier in the testimony, and i lived in all kind of conditions. you know, is to ask for the help from -- develop housing and i will give you a chance to respond
to that and what i mean by that is to try to see if you could move people out of public housing into homeownership. maybe a certain portion of the rent might go to a deferred account where eventually they can get enough money, get a down payment to live and live in a home. the other thing is with all the millenniums that we have now, it's also developed -- affordable deductible tax- deferred iras so as they are renting all of this time, they can also set aside funds on a tax-deferred basis so at one point, they would be able to have homeownership. and i really appreciate the opportunity when you came down to jacksonville with senator rubio and myself to meet at eureka gardens. and the conditions that we had down
there with these management companies and so forth. it caused a lot of problems and a lot of public housing. it was hard to regulate. so i've been working on legislation on this and we have a long way so there is legislation being worked on with that. probably a long way to go to -- to get the concept accepted. i think it is something we can move forward with. i will stop right now so you can talk before my time runs out. >> thank you. and enqueue for the work you have done on behalf of the people particularly in the jacksonville area who are suffering very significantly. that is what we should be doing. looking for ways to get those people into a different type of environment. really that is what this is all about. it is not about ideology and who is evil and who is bad. it is about the people themselves. and we can actually focus on them.
that is how we are able to solve the problems. that is why i was able to come to an agreement with mayor bill de blasio in new york even though we have very different views on things. focusing on the people. that will always be the solution to the problems we have here. >> how do you feel about the deferred -- for housing? >> we are trying to find better ways to expand the self- sufficiency program. one of the ways i have been talking about and suggesting is that people be able to take part of their monthly substance and put it into an escrow and that is used specifically for the maintenance of their apartment. if they don't have a lot of maintenance, it continues to grow. when they get all the money that has accumulated and they can use it for a down payment. a lot of people can keep their
heads as above water but they never will be able to accumulate a down payment. as i said earlier, that is the key method of -- homeownership . >> i appreciate your hard work and i would like for the agency to work with us to see if we can craft legislation. i think this is key to what we can do. >> i would love to work with you on that. >> the gentleman from minnesota, mr. phillips, is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you madam chair. one day in the distant future when you look back and reflect on your work at hud, what do you want your legacy to be? >> to be honest with you, i am not a legacy person but i would very much like to see the
organization turn from one that just takes care of people to one that sets people on a trajectory of success. >> in general terms, your philosophy relative to the role of the federal government in providing housing to the least advantaged in the country. >> i think we definitely have a responsibility to take care of those who cannot take care of themselves. the elderly, the disabled. who simply are not able to do anything. i think we have a responsibility to help those who are work able to get on a trajectory of success where they begin to believe in themselves. as i said before, most important resource we have in this country is our people. and we only have 330 million people. it is not a lot of people compared to china that has four
times that many. we have to compete against them. we will never be able to compete with them in the future if we don't concentrate on developing our people. >> i would agree. if i gave you a magic wand and affect one policy change that you think would lead us to that end, what might it be? >> if i could do one thing with a magic wand, i would make this country stop hating each other. we would get a lot done. >> i would share the wand with you. i have a question about mortgage insurance premiums. this is before you came secretary. the trump administration extended that the crows -- decreased by a point. have you considered that and your thoughts on it and why this indefinite suspension? >> certainly when i first came, there was a lot of pressure to lower the premium
by 25 basis points. and they said more people would be able to get mortgage guarantees. if we had done that, we would have ended up with less than 2% of the capital ratio that is required by congress and ended up at 1.7%. now we are in reasonable shape. we still have to be very careful. we have a lot of things that impinge on the mutual mortgage fund. it is done day by day, week by week, month by month basis, looking at the risk and making adjustments as necessary. >> so a chance that it could be? >> absolutely. >> is your position on establishing mortgage insurance with the private market?
your thoughts? >> with the private market? >> yes. >> we want to bring as much private equity into the system as we possibly can. obviously we need to have government backstops. in order to provide confidence in the market. but we need to enact policies that encourage capital to come in. >> agreed. and your thoughts relative to the 70% threshold that no longer requires morgan insurance -- mortgage insurance? >> i can understand why people come up with numbers like that. again, we have to look at the risk involved and the risks we are looking to mitigate against.
and is there a one size that fits all model where 78% is a magic number? i'm not sure that there is. >> what number might you select? >> it depends. >> thank you. >> i would like to thank secretary carson for his time today. the conversation we had earlier is not necessary now. we have the classified briefing. there is no need for you to remain. without objection, all members will have five legislative days in which to submit additional written questions to the chair which will be forwarded to the secretary for his response. i would ask the secretary to please respond. all members will have five legislative days. with that, this hearing is adjourned.
center for growth and opportunity research director megan hampton will talk about new research for how to improve the management of public land. be sure to watch c-span's washington journal live at 7:00 eastern wednesday morning. during the discussion. sunday on c-span's q&a. >> after nixon's last press
conference, 10 years later, a 49 state landslide. and it all came apart. >> columnist and political commentator pat buchanan served as a speechwriter and senior advisor to president nixon, discusses the named -- the nixon white house wars. the battles that made and broke a president and divided america forever. >> i had written a memo saying, i thought you will have to testify. you have to keep the five types of conversation. i did not think they would be that damaging to us. and keep the foreign-policy stuff. the stuff you need. i said, take the rest out and burn it and shut down the special prosecutor's office before this grows into a monster. and i did not know it at the time but nixon had called in