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tv   American Perspectives  CSPAN  November 7, 2009 8:00pm-11:00pm EST

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breaking news tonight. live, ohio, cops raid the home of a convicted sex offender accused of yet another sex attack. inside his three-story cleveland home, seasoned detectives stunned, women's bodies hidden throughout, bodies on every floor of the home, even stuffed in crawl spaces. bombshell tonight, in the last 24 hours, the body count rises. now, 11 dead women in the three-story home of former marine, anthony sowell.
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and the excavation goes on. so far, only one positive i.d. made. reported missing, one year ago, a mother of two girls and one boy, tonya carmichael. i.d.'d through dental records. also, i.d.'d in the last 24 hours. tonight, her daughter with us. her mother's body hidden in this house of horrors for the last year. just hours ago, sowell, in full shackle, in court. and yet another bizarre twist, we confirm just weeks after sowell's release from the pen, he lists himself on a sex website seeking "a submissive." is this one of the ways the former marine trolled for victims? tonight, unsuspecting neighbors in shock over an alleged serial killer living amongst them.
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>> we have recovered 11 victims. we have recovered ten bodies and one partial skeleton from the address. they're all african-american women. seven died of ligature strangulation, one died of manual strangulation, and two where simply decomposition of the body precludes accuracy. we're diagnosing that as homicidal violence in two cases. and the last case, the autopsy is ongoing. does not appear to have a ligature and will undoubtedly be a case of manual strangulation or homicidal violence. >> nearly a dozen dead women. are there more? put money on it. >> there were some in the attic. that's where they were first discovered. two bodies so badly decomposed, we're told, that they couldn't even determine the sex right away. they also found bodies in a crawl space below some stairs. they found a skull inside of a
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bucket in the basement. they also found bodies buried outside behind the home. >> we prefer to have you bound for further decision, is that correct? >> reporter: seems like every time they go into this house, they find something more. they're going to tear through this place wall to wall and make sure there's nothing left to be found. and breaking news tonight, live, the florida panhandle, a close-knit community reeling after a newborn baby girl sleeping in the same bedroom as her parents vanishes without a trace. halloween. the story now becoming more distorted. as we go to air, is there a break in the case? police, as we speak, combing the grounds for evidence. but tonight, we want to know who took baby shannon. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com
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shocking revelations in the search for missing 7-month-old baby girl shannon.netrick. the family babysitter alleges a pattern of abuse and begs the state for help. but that babysitter also faced allegations of abuse herself. >> something is not fitting together with the story. this is a 7-month-old baby girl. she cannot walk. it's my understanding she cannot crawl yet. >> reporter: another huge gap in this story is the fact that the parents have not made any personal appeals. i really believe that this story is going to be solved, or this case will be solved close to home, rather than far away from home. >> the department of children and families releasing information on two investigations. shannon's parents, christina and james. >> i think they're alleging foul play. i think they seem to be pointing fingers directly at the parents. >> one investigation into drug use around the child. the second investigation over
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allegations members of the home shook baby shannon. both investigations result in no criminal charges. >> it is disturbing. i think there's some serious questions about these parents. and the fact that they would be asleep from 3:00 a.m. until 11:00 just does not make sense. >> reporter: parents forced to take drug tests, as the search continues for baby shannon. many are asking, did this have to happen in the first place. >> good evening. i'm nancy grace. i want to thank you for being with us. breaking news tonight, live, ohio. cops raid the home of a convicted sex offender accused of yet another sex attack. inside his three-story cleveland home, seasoned detectives stunned. women's bodies hidden throughout. bodies on every floor of the home, even stuffed in the crawl spaces. bombshell tonight, as the excavation goes on in and around
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the home, a former marine, anthony sowell, the body count of murdered women rises. >> 11 victims. there were six inside the house, and five recovered from the yard. seven ligature strangulations, one manual strangulation, two that are going to be homicidal violence, and then one autopsy is going on. >> breaking news. we now have 11 bodies recovered at the home of anthony sowell. he was in court today. >> given the nature and the gruesomeness of the allegations that have been placed against you, the court believes that you be held without bond. >> i have to believe they'll go back to the house and dig a little deeper, because of the skull, and we need to find where the rest of the body's at. >> the bodies buried in the ground, decomposed eight times slower than a body left in air. so we had two in the third floor out in the air. we had two bodies under dirt.
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and we had five buried in the yard. so they're all decomposing at different rates. it could be months to years in how long they've been down there. >> we'll go bit by bit, piece by piece through the house. make sure we didn't miss anything. >> leaving no stone unturned? >> yes. >> ripping things apart? >> yep. >> the excavation goes on. the police now set to tear down the walls to look in the walls starting in the morning. for those of you just joining us, cleveland suburbs, the body count rises inside a three-story house of horrors. a former marine, anthony sowell, lives there. in the last 24 hours, the body count goes up to 11 murdered women. out to dan haggert, standing there out in flost of the home. he's joining us from wews. dan haggerty, 11 dead murdered
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women. so far, what are the cops' plans? what more is there to investigate? i understand they have yet to tear the walls down? >> they said they plan to dig a little deeper. that may be an underestimate. they're going to get a warrant today to go in tomorrow morning with the fire department and literally going to rip this home apart. they're going to tear down the walls. they're going to check every inch. they're going to make sure nothing else is inside of this house, that there's no more evidence. and for sure, there are no more bodies. >> hold on. you mean they've got to get an additional warrant in order to tear the walls down? >> yeah, that's what we hear. we hear that they had to have a different type of search warrant to be able to go in there and actually start to demolish parts of the home, to tear down the walls. and to search inside the actual structure of the house. >> dan haggerty joining us outside the home with wews. dan haggerty, i understand that they can confirm eight of the
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women died by strangulation, seven of them by ligature. for instance, with a rope or a pair of stockings. one by manual strangulation. is it true that the ligatures were still around the necks of the dead women? >> right. it was real hard for the coroner to figure that one out. that's how they knew that the suspect here, possibly anthony sowell, used either a cord or a rope to strangle his victims. they said when they found these decomposed bodies, the ones that they knew had been strangled in that way, still had that rope or that cord around their neck. >> to ken robinson, joining us from wtam, 1100 news radio, also joining us in front of sowell's home. ken robinson, what more can you tell me? are people still gathering out in front of the home? this is day three? wondering every time they bring a gurney out with a body on it, is that my mother, is that my
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sister, is that my daughter under that sheet? >> that's absolutely correct. people have been here since day one. waiting on the coroner, waiting in front of the house, looking, wafg, wondering what's going to happen next. this series of crimes has rocked this neighborhood. there's a gamut of emotions flowing through the neighborhood right now from anguish. people wondering why police didn't find out something was going on here earlier. people wondering, are they safe now. some have lost confidence in the police. i had one gentleman tell me that he's thinking about starting his own patrol through the neighborhood because he's lost confidence in the police department. >> i want to go to a special guest joining us right now. everyone, we are taking your calls live. and with me right now is the daughter of the one woman who has been identified so far. the mother of three. she had two girls and one boy. with me is denita carmichael,
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the daughter of tonya carmichael. miss carmichael, thank you for being with us. >> thank you for having me on. me and my family. >> we are showing some absolutely beautiful shots of your mom. we've got her at a barbecue, we've got her in front of a little gambling slot machine. there she is wearing a baseball cap. there she is dressed in a santa claus outfit. got a little hat on. there she is with her family. and i just cannot imagine leaving lucy, my little girl, and john david, my little boy, behind. to grow up in this world without a mother. tell me how you learned that your mother's body had been hidden in this home for a year.
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>> well, nancy, first of all, let me just thank you for putting this story out there. i was listening to the show, and i was hearing the response you had given. it was not just like you were speaking from the family. you know, a lot of those things you touched on as far as what's taken so long for the other families to find out the information that we tragically had to find out today is still unbelievable. a search warrant, are you kidding me? you know? it's devastating enough that this murderous person was able to stay out on the streets and do this heinous act that he's done for so long. without being detected. it's just very hard to believe. >> everyone, you are seeing -- >> unfortunately finding out about her child is discomforting.
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i lost a mother, as well as my older sister and my younger brother. as you can see from the pictures, she had a beautiful smile. she was a beautiful person. she was a family oriented person. she loved her family. she loved the holidays. she loved to horseback ride. she loved to make jokes to make her grandchildren smile. that's the legacy we're trying to make sure she gets out there. the slot machines, she loved vegas, she loved going to the bahamas. those are the things, for the ones who really truly knew my mother.
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some looked very old. years, not months. but it's hard to tell. it's difficult.
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there's four or five different disposal situations with different characteristics. at a crawl space, open air in a room, cool basement, buried in earth, and so they're all going to decompose at different rates. and internally, body size and infection at the time of death can alter decomposition as well. >> and the excavation goes on in the cleveland home, a three-story home of former marine, anthony sowell. the body count has actually risen. it is now at 11. and we learned tonight that sowell may be linked to other crimes on women in california. isn't it correct, dan haggerty joining us from wews, that sowell was stationed with the marines, he was honorably discharged in both north carolina and california? what can you tell me about the possibility he's connected to crimes in california? >> i don't know about the
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possibility of him being connected to these crimes. all we know right now is he did enlist in the marines. this is in 1978. he was 18 years old. he was a marine for eight years. he did serve in north carolina and california. and we know that he is being investigated right now as possibly connected to unsolved rapes there in those states. but for now, especially in concord, california, doing investigations there to see if he's connected to any unsolved raeps there. but for now, that's all we know about that part of the investigation. >> stacey newman, our producer on the story, stacey, what more have we learned as we went to air tonight? >> just when you think it couldn't get any more bizarre tonight, nancy, we haven't covered that anthony sowell, he trolled a sex fetish website. was he using this to learn victims? we don't know. but what i can tell you is, just weeks after his release from prison, he put up a profile, wanting to dominate women using the sex fetish website.
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>> you are seeing the anthony sowell profile from a sex fetish website, the one that stacey newman is describing right now. stacey, are you telling me that he did this just weeks after getting out of the pen on attempted rape? >> just weeks. and what we've also uncovered is, his last login was at least about three months ago. >> we are taking your calls live. to barbara in maryland. hi, barbara. >> caller: hi, nancy. >> hi, dear. what's your question? >> caller: i just want to say that i wish there were more people in the world like you, we would be so much better off. you and your twins are angels. >> thank you. >> caller: and my question was, why on earth wasn't anyone watching this monster when he was released from prison? >> to sergeant scott haines, sheriff's officer, florida. sergeant, i've never seen -- well, actually i have seen a few
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cases like this. he got stepsed to 15 years. he did the full 15. that's my understanding. and that is extremely rare. they did not let this guy out. and he did all sorts of classes behind bars, like cage your rage. they made him go through that. they made him go through anger management. clearly they knew he had a severe problem. >> absolutely. somebody who does the full 15 years doesn't get paroled, or out on probation, and kept that entire time, they're a dangerous person. they're not going to be rehabilitated. and they had a responsible to follow this person closely. >> what about it, pat brown? >> absolutely. i mean, this guy probably committed lots of crimes before he was 30 when he went in, and we have seen he's committed lots of crimes when he came out.
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six of them are described as african-american women, and at least five of them appear to have been strangled. they were all found in and around the house of 50-year-old anthony sowell. >> you could smell the dead bodies. >> there are a whole lot of people showing up in this neighborhood. dozens of missing women, and their families and their loved ones that have been showing up here, and trying to figure out if their loved ones are one of the bodies inside of this home. >> the likelihood that there are victims in other places, missing people who were never recovered, and no one knows their
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whereabouts, is extremely high. >> i guarantee it, they look at california, north carolina, where he was stationed with the marines, ther are going to be women there who have never been found, never been accounted for. >> we've obtained a warrant to get the dna from the suspect. we're in the process of now entering it in the state data base and also the national data base, to see if we have any hits relative to any criminal activity relative to this particular suspect across our nation. >> this is exactly ten bodies in different stages of decomposition. how can you not smell that? how can you not investigate it a little bit better? >> it's no longer ten bodies. the body count rising in the last 24 hours to 11 bodies. and now an additional search warrant has to be obtained in order for the police to start tearing down the walls. don't think that is so far-fetched. if you recall, the recent yale medical student, annie le, she was murdered, her body hitten in
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a 24-inch space in the wall. before they could tear down this house of horrors, they've got to go back to court and get another search warrant. that is why the wall excavation did not happen today. there is a crowd of mourners and onlookers standing beyond that yellow crime scene tape tonight. wondering each time a body is pulled out on a gurney, is that my mother, my sister, my daughter who's gone missing? we are taking your calls live. out to deb in michigan. hi, deb. >> caller: hi, nancy. i wanted to thank you for fighting for those that don't have a voice. >> thank you. >> caller: my question is, the serial killer, are they going to be looking at his past addresses to see if there are bodies there? >> joining us in front of sowell's home, what do we know about that? i mean, i know that he got out of the pen on attempted rape conviction. 15 years in the pen on that. did he move straight here, to
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this location, or was there a stopover in between? >> he moved here. he moved to this neighborhood, and this house, in cleveland. and he's lived here since, 2005, right after being released from prison. like we've been saying, the coroner hasn't given us an exact date on when these women were killed. but they say it could be years, months, or weeks. some say that the killings could have started right after he moved here in 2005. >> back to you, stacey. what do you know about any links to california crimes? >> here's what we know. cops are also looking into coronado, california. this is right near san diego. of course, this is where sowell was stationed. they're looking into a 1979 rape case there. now, i can also tell you, there's reports that a woman in north carolina has come forward to say she believes she was raped by sowell sometime in the '70s. but of course, cops have not been able to verify that. they are still looking into that as well. >> i'm going to go to a special
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guest we have with us tonight. d dr. lillian glass, and criminal profiler and author. also with us is the daughter of the only victim as of tonight that has been positively identified. lillian glass, pat brown, let's talk about it just very briefly before i go to the victim's daughter, donnita carmichael. first to you, lillian glass. i have two scenarios in mind. number one, he is acting out in rage and anger toward women. number two, after being convicted on rape and attempted rape and doing 15 years, he decided to kill all of his future victims so there would be no evidence, no eyewitnesses. and three, he has an insatiable desire to murder. those are my only three scenarios. do you have any other ideas, lillian glass? >> they're all correct and all absolutely right. because this is a man that is a
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massageinnist. he hatsz women, he's methodical in how he kills them. >> hold on, lillian. excuse me, rosie, i want to see the photos of tonya carmichael. she is a beautiful mother of three. she leaves behind two girls and a boy. her body hidden in sowell's home for the past year. decomposing, along with the bodies of ten other women, that we know of. go ahead, lillian. >> no, you're absolutely correct. when you're looking at the pain that this family has to endure now, my heart goes out to the daughter and to all of the relatives. because it's so difficult. >> to you, pat brown. theories on motive? not that the state needs motive.
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but you can't tell me this guy's crazy. don't even start singing that same tired song. he's trolling on the internet looking for victims, as recently as nine weeks ago. he's not crazy. but what about motive? >> nancy, you'll never hear the crazy word from me when it comes to serial killers. serial killers are psychopaths and they want power and control. somewhere in their lives they lost it and want to get back at society, and particularly women. i would be curious to see what his behaviors were in the marines. a lot of times you get the honorable discharge because they want to get rid of you or accused of throwing you out for no reason. they'll give you an honorable discharge just to get you out of there. he had to have committed crimes before that time. he did not just jump up and decide to start raping and murdering women. >> i think you may be right about that, pat brown. veterans all over this country are shocked that this guy is a
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former marine that served our country. i want to go to dr. kent harshbarger, forensic pathologist. of course, we know that many of these bodies still had the ligature around the neck. and that's a whole other psychological can of worms, all right? but before i go there, how can they tell with the other bodies, the mode of death? >> well, it's assumed from the scene, generally, if they can't find a death because of the decomposition, you will assume it is homicidal -- >> i was wondering about that. >> we say undetermined. it means we can't tell. but from the scenario, the circumstances around this death, there's no other explanation other than violence. >> dr. harshbarger, have you ever telt with a forensic
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artist, a reconstructionist? i had to unfortunately as a prosecutor when bodies were so decomposed they could not be identified. so you could get a composite sketch of what you thought the victim looked like in life, so as to identify her. have you ever dealt with one of those artists? >> yes, i have. it's rare nowadays because of dna analysis and other technologies. but it is done. it's done by tissue thicknesses on the skull and then they make a clay model and then make renderings from that. it takes an artist, the hair color, eye color, the artist is creating the look of this person. >> it's very, very difficult. it's a highly, highly specialized field. to donnita car mic al, this is tonya carmichael's daughter. her mother's body has been positively identified as one of the 11 women in sowell's home. miss carmichael, i didn't hear
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during our last interchange how you discovered your mother was one of sowell's alleged victims. >> the police actually came to my grandmother's home, my mom's mother's home, and told us that there was a positive dna match. >> i'm just looking at these pictures of your mom, and she has the most beautiful smile. donnita, tell me something about her. what were her joys in life? what was she like? >> well, as you can see from the photographs, she had a gorgeous smile. thank you for the compliment on that. but she loved her family. she loved the holidays and vacations. she loved to cook and prepare meals, thanksgiving or christmas. she loved seafood. she loved trips to vegas.
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she just loved her family. >> she loved life. everyone, you are seeing shots of victim tonya carmichael. she is one of 11 that we know of, as the body count rises in that cleveland suburb. tonight, safety tips. women are easy tar gets. especially at night. how can you protect yourself? have a place to meet others if you become separated. never leave a drink unattended. it's so easy to slip something like dhb, a date rape drug, in a drink. designate a safe driver or use a taxi service, please. identify security guards. locate exits in case of emergency. and trust your instinct. if you don't feel safe for whatever reason, leave. for more information, go to nfpa.org.
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41-year-old james arthur baker and his wife, susan, also 41, reported their 3-year-old son, paul, missing. a massive search for the boy turned up nothing. meanwhile, james and susan baker moved out of south carolina and into rural washington county, florida. authorities were suspicious. washington county sheriff's investigators began walking the baker property closely. south carolina authorities had received a tip the bakers had killed their son and dumped the body. >> law enforcement says they have a person of interest but still refuse to name them. where is 7-year-old baby shannon. >> straight out to allison walker with wmbb. allison, i understand as we go to air, police are searching a gray van in connection with little shannon's disappearance. who owns the van?
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>> the sheriff's office and the florida law department will not tell us who own the van. they are looking for evidence in the van, searching it thoroughly. neighbors have said that shannon -- or that susan baker does drive a gray van, but we do not have that confirmed. we don't know that for sure. >> now, clark goldband, susan baker would be the babysitter? >> yes, nancy. she is the babysitter. she's been there about two months working with the family. susan baker, the babysitter, also sending an e-mail to the governor of florida, charlie crist, pleading with him just a few weeks ago, to save the child. saying the child is around an abusive household. the child has been shaken by her parents, and also shannon has also inhaled drugs, such as marijuana, and smoke from cigarettes. when instructed by staff at the hospital not to smoke around the
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child. >> wait a minute, clark goldband, this baby has problems of her own. >> she does, nancy. and they stem back to 1987 when the sitter reported her stepson missing. he was 3 years old, went down for a nap. she says when she returned, the child was gone. >> wait a minute, when she returned from where? >> from the home. it's not exactly clear where she went. she says allegedly when she came back from the house, the 3-year-old was gone. as investigators searched all-out for the 3-year-old boy, they examined her 6-year-old stepdaughter and that stepdaughter had welts and broken bones. so the sitter -- >> and she becomes a babysitter in the home where little shannon disappears. but still, to alyssa walker, the parents' story, they say the baby's asleep in the room with them. they all sleep until 11:30 in the morning. you know, by that time, i've been up at least five hours.
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so they're sacked out 11:30 a.m. and then they find out the baby's missing? >> yes, that's true. >> so they place themselves with the missing child at the time she disappears, correct, allyson walker? >> that's correct. >> with us tonight, fay woods, the godmother of the missing child, shannon. miss wood, thank you for being with us. miss wood, what can you tell me about the home in which this little girl lived? >> i met them, they lived right across the road from where we reside at. i've been in the house several times without them knowing i was coming. no notice. i would just open up the door and i would go in. and the baby was always fine. they never abused that child. that baby was healthy. and the baby weighed 11 pounds, the baby was not no big 30-pound baby or anything.
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but she weighed more than 11 pounds. she was a preemie when she was born. >> i know how that was. my daughter was born at two pounds. what can you tell me about possible marijuana and cigarette use around the baby? >> now, they did smoke cigarettes. but the marijuana use, no, ma'am. >> i hope that you're right about that. i mean, cigarettes are wad enough. they are a known contributor to sudden infant death syndrome. but marijuana is another animal altogether. miss wood, for the longest time, the parents' names were not even out there. they're not making any public pleas whatsoever. why did they want to keep their names secret? >> the only thing i could figure is they're doing what the sheriff of washington county was asking them to do. >> hmm. kirby clements, allen ripka, this is a conundrum. you've got the parents sacked out until 11:30 a.m. no baby sleeps until 11:30 a.m.
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it's -- no. all right? that's not a statistic, that's just what i know. now you've got this babysitter coming onto the scene. she's had a problem with a missing child way back home from where she came from. kirby, what about it? >> well, first of all, i think the babysitter is suspect number one. because apparently whenever little children are around her, they go missing. in this letter to the governor, who does that? she could call the sheriff. she could have called the family -- children and family services. she writes a letter to the governor. there's something wrong with that babysitter and something afoot with her. i think she's going to be your person. >> allen ripka, what about it? right now there are no named suspects. go ahead, ripka. >> there's no named suspects because they have no evidence against the babysitter or either one of the parents. >> well, you don't know that. >> if they did, they would certainly be a person of interest or potentially a suspect. >> no, allen. as a matter of fact, they may not want to name them yet. they may know exactly who they're looking at.
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but hoping they'll give them enough rope to hang themselves. i'm sure you've heard of that ploy before, allen ripka. >> if you think they're going to -- >> just to jump up and say they don't have any evidence, that's a bald-faced evidence is a bald-faced statement right. >> there nancy, if you thinking the parents or babysitter are going to lead them to the child, i hope that's the case but there's been nothing said to lead us to that believe. >> a shot of little shannon only 11 pounds, two feet tall. everyone on a happy note, as we go to break, today marks one of the most wonderful days in my life. this time two years ago my twins lucy and john david and myself were all in intensive care. today, they turn 2. i truly believe your prayers were heard as they were lifted up. breaking news, prayer changes things. happy birthday lucy and john david. this is this morning at about 5:30 a.m.
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i made them cookies last night to go with their candle and in the other shot, those were some paper crowns that we made for them to wear today.
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she cannot walk. it's my understanding she cannot crawl yet. >> another huge gap in this story, the fact the parents have not made any personal appeals. i really believe that this story is going to be solved or this case will be solved close to home rather than far away from home. >> the department of children and families releasing information on two investigations into shannon's parents. >> i think they are allegedly foul play and seem to be pointing fingers directly at the parents. >> one investigation into drug use around the child. >> i think another huge gap in this story is the fact that the
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parents have not made any personal appeals. i really believe that this story is going to be solved or this case will be solved close to home, rather than far away from home. >> we are taking your calls tonight. this little baby, allegedly taken out of her parents' bedroom as they slept, sacking out until 11:30 a.m. according to them, the baby never made a peep. sharon in alabama, hi, sharon. >> caller: hi, nancy. thank you for taking my call. >> thank you for calling, dear. what's your question? >> caller: i just heard again that the parents didn't make a personal plea for the children. and i'm wondering if the local affiliates there made that available to them. >> well, let's find out. >> caller: -- and they turned them down. >> seeing new shots is we've obtained of little shannon. she's absolutely beautiful. to faye wood, the godmother of missing child shannon dedrick.
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what about it? i'm sure news crews have hoeched the parents and offered them the opportunity to make a public plea. >> no, they have not. >> i find that really hard to believe. have they approached the media themselve themselves? miss wood? >> they have just finally, the sheriff's department in washington county has just finally offered a $10,000 ransom for the safe return for the child. >> that would be a reward. $10,000, everyone, the tipline 850-638-6111. pat brown, criminal profiler. what do you make of it? >> either the parents did something to the child because they went to sleep until 11:00 unless the babysitter had access to the home. she knew their habits, went in there and snatched their baby and had no reason to wake up
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because the baby never cried again. >> a very good point. tonight, no parents, no babysitter, nobody named a person of interest or suspect in this case. let's stop and remember navy petty officer second class michael monsor 25, garden grove, california killed iraq. navy s.e.a.l. highly decorated, the medal of honor, silver star, bronze star, purple heart. leaves behind grieving parents george and sally, brothers james and joseph, sister sarah. michael monsoor american hero. thanks to our guest but the biggest thanks to you for being with us. see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp eastern. sharp eastern. until then, good night, friend. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com
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tonight on "the joy behar show," sex, sex, sex, can too much of a good thing be a bad thing? in an addiction, yes, dr. drew pen ski will join me along with two sex addicts and after we're done talking we'll take a shower and cuddle. -- big statehouse victories but are they celebrating too soon? sex and politics. ooh, i feel like a member of congress. also nicklaus cage, hollywood star and shopaholic says he has goen brown.
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did his over-the-top lifestyle end him in the poorhouse? all this and more -- tonight. here's a question. does being a sex addict make a man a bad husband? if he's getting his fix from another woman, i'd say, yeah. baseball analyst steve phillips and actor david due coughny are two notable self-admitted sex addicts but not alone between 3 and 6% of the population say they are, too. ironically, the same people to whom four out of five dentists recommend sugarless gum. go figure! here to discuss sexual addiction is dr. drew pinsky. this generation's dr. ruth except he's not 4 feat 11" -- 4 feat 8", really. also the star of vh1's sex rehab
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with dr. drew and two sex addicts who participate in the show british film director duncan roy and playboy playmate nicole moraine. thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you. >> hi, nicole. you're out there somewhere but we know you're there. >> thanks. >> by the way, i saw your tape with colin farrell. yikes fabulous. >> i can't see you watching that, but that's cool. >> i have my secrets. so, steve phillips. >> yeah >> you know this guy? >> yeah. >> espn has sex with a 22-year-old, gets caught and goes to sex rehab. is he really a sex addict or just a horny guy? >> we obviously don't know him but i know he had to have met criteria for sexual addiction to be admitted to a program that treats sexual addicts. people get sort of glib about this saying it's just an excuse
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when the -- fe hadn't been caught. substitute cocaine instead of sex, it's the same thing. the courts bring people to treatment. the families bring people to treatment, the doctors bring people to treatment. relatively rare people stand up and go you know what i need my cocaine addiction treated today unless a near-death experience. sex addiction is the exact same way. >> somebody has to say listen, you have to get caught or something like that. >> there have to be sufficient consequence to motivate you to want to change. >> you know what, people accused of taking an easy way out going into rehab. >> right. >> as i heard you on "the view" saying that the other day. the points is the easy way out to leave your wife and end up in a hotel room with coke and hookers. that's the easy way not putting my hands up and say i need help. >> i don't remember saying that. you got me mixed up with whoopi goldberg. >> easy to mix up. >> what about letterman, what do you think about that case? >> i don't know what's that is
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all about but the one that sort of stands out is the easy one in the record book, bill clinton. someone who really had horrible consequences from what seems -- >> do you think he's addicted to sex or doesn't have self control what's the difference? >> duncan go, ahead. >> nicole wanted to ring in, too. >> go ahead, nicole, ring in. >> the thing is, i spoke to dr. drew about this recently because i was struggling with the fact that i had so many questions after i was on the show and i explained to him that, you know, being a sex addict and being someone who's, you know, addicted to love where being -- being a love addict and having that fear of abandonment and that underlying fear of intimacy, i was asking him how do you deem yourself recovered from that? whereas i think it's a lot es -- a lot more treatable to be recovered from being a sex addict, you know, like in duncan's case, you know, being online eight, nine hours a day
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just is watching porn i would imagine at some point that can be recovered. >> not to mention the carpal tunnel syndrome. you know, is there a difference between a female addict and male addict? because the way she describes it it sounds more like women who love too much. >> women tend -- tend, to statistically, come to sex addiction through love addiction. so, they have these elaborate fantasies, we've all had them, all been teenagering and normally outgrow them as part of our development in lives but some get stuck in that, romeo and juliet were love adikts. by the way people look at that and point that out as a reason romance should sort of be defended. the outcome there wasn't so good. if one of my patients ended up like that, i wouldn't be too happy about it. >> romeo and juliet because the families disagreed. didn't you see "westside story" the same thing. >> finish the points. the fantasy becomes paramount with a real relationship intimacy is disordered, they can't tolerate it and they cheat and act out sexually. >> the myth about --
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>> hold on, nicole. >> okay. >> the myth about sex addiction it's about sex, it's not but filling the same void of alcohol and drugs. >> yeah an emptyiness. >> that's right. sex addiction is about intrigue about flirtation. those are just as important as -- and pornography. >> how much is danger involved in all of it, too? >> well, for me, a lot. >> yeah, for you. >> i was completely obsessed with dangerous sexual encounters with strange guys usually straight identified guys who had been -- the last time i relapsed was in a park with a cop with a gun to my head. >> so, it's more about the thrill of the danger -- >> he mean, for me it's about replicating the trauma. and so. >> let's talk about the trauma. >> do you understand that? >> yes. i understand you had a trauma as a young child, a very serious thing. >> we can laugh about it. >> no, no, i can't laugh about that. we'll move on to other things that are funny but this is not because you were basically raped by your step-father, am i right. >> from 2 until 13. >> 2 years old. that is not funny.
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>> the average age, the average age of sex abuse against kids is about 2 to 3 years old, the average age so people are abusing infants, that's what happens. >> it sun believable. have sort of come through a wave of this just spectacular and the consequences in adulthood are the replication of the traumas through sexual acting out and compulsively repeating them over and over again becoming a prostitute, a stripper, by going for dangerous situations, whatever it might be. people compulsively replicate these things. >> do all sex adikts have child abuse in their past? >> no all but it's very common. >> nicole, were you sexually abused as a child, nicole. >> i definitely grew up having my boundaries violated, definitely. so, that was -- >> and neglect, too, nicole you mentioned. >> neglect, abandonment and abuse. >> right. i was kicked out at 16 years old so i've had to learn survival at such a young age and before being, you know, so -- and on top of that having your boundaries violated, that
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confusion doesn't really help now that, you know, like i'm out there this the world in the streets by myself it's like, okay, what do i do now? how do i handle all of this stuff like what's right, what's wrong, what -- where do i go find comfort and in what man and how do i trust that man and -- >> well said. >> so, she puts -- succinctly. duncan you talk about your addiction on the show. can we take a look at that clip? >> sure. >> pornography is very debilitating. i'm talking about getting up in the morning, seven days a week and sitting at my computer all day. >> okay. how much does this the internet actually play in all of this? >> there's a huge problem with the internet because -- >> you want to do? >> i want you to do this. >> you're the one on the internet. >> i'll sprinkle the highlights on top. >> i'm the one. >> yeah. >> the problem with the internet in years gone by before the internet came, you know, people
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would find images and they'd be the same kinds of images and if they evolved sexually through into wanting to see other more dangerous things it would be very hard for them. now, only three clicks away from something that would land you in prison. and that's a huge, you know -- we're talking about unmanageability and powerlessness. >> you've got to remember it's really changed the landscape this portal on everyone's desk is like having a crack pipe on everyone's desk for everyone all the time. >> really. >> uh-huh. >> nicole, how bad did your addiction get? i understand were you into masturbation a lot. >> right. >> isn't that from anxiety, all that master baiting, from anxiety. >> it is a way of managing feeling. >> you know, what i really try hard not to think about ma masterbating too much. i had a moment there where i really did could not get out of bed one day because it was a constant thing and that was an
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exhausting day. it was like i didn't even want to eat food because that was my food for the day. it was exhausting and scary because it consumed my entire day and i try very hard to not have any triggers around, you know, around me where i would feel like i need to masturbate today because i'm fearful not getting out of bed for the day. >> okay. >> but i'm -- you know, i'm definitely a lot better -- i'm definitely better. i'm still human, don't get me wrong. >> yeah. >> we all have to clean the pipes. >> masturbation like that is an addiction? i mean if you stop teething, it could cure your addiction to food. think about it that way. >> yeah. >> okay, everyone. more to come. stick around. always look on the bright side.
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>> you had some childhood trauma, right? >> uh-huh. >> what happened. >> certain family members just, you know, touch you inappropriately or, um the, thii know were wrong but for me i don't know how you talk about this sort of stuff. >> i'm sure were you threatened by some of these people, too, weren't you? >> that was a clip from the vh1 show. dr. drew, okay. let me ask you, how do you treat sexual addiction? what do you do? >> it's different than other addictions in that it is so deeply embedded in who the person is and also in trauma as we've talked about. the big difference for me was
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that you leap very quickly into very heavy landscape, very deep issues come up very quickly and are done in evocative fashion, lots of education in sex rehab. drug addicts won't sit through the education sex addicts gobble up. it is really interesting. when you have the appropriate candidate at the appropriate level of care they really respond well to it so a sex rehab center has to have patients who can take a lof of evokes and change things that are subtle and deeply embedded in who they are. >> you can't have a.d.d. at the same time. >> it's difficult. >> were you really surprised by the way -- >> we put together this great team and i sort of inserted myself into the team. first of all their courage was spectacular and secondly the way they leapt into the process was something new for me compared to what drug addicts do who resist the process or if they leap in, they use it as a reason to go do drugs. >> but sex addiction is harder,
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you say. >> it's harder, more tender, more painful. >> -- 13 years by the time i hit this wall. >> chemical -- >> a social phenom. >> chemical. i've been sober from drugs and alcohol 13 years. >> 13 years. >> then about eight months before i did the show i really hit the wall in my sobriety where i realized i transferred all of my addictions into sex and internet and all the other stuff i was doing. >> yes. that's interesting to me, people addicted to one thing they give that up and pick up another addiction. >> they can, yes, they can. addiction a motivational disturbance in the deep recesses of the brain with no logic, reason or language just a movational -- >> so you gave up booze and drugs and rehabilitated as a sex addict, right duncan? almost. >> you know, there's no cure for addiction. it's a progressive condition which can be arrested. so, all i have to do on a daily basis is arrest my condition i mean that's really all i can do. >> nicole was saying sex
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addiction is so deeply emotional, so much of an emotional process. >> because there's so much process, too, the difference between being the sex addict and dealing with the abandonment issues, way more traumatizing dealing with a lot more emotion. >> very interesting how some addicts become very religious, i notice -- >> like who? >> george bush was an alcoholic and became very, very religious and it was all about the lord. it's like another addiction in a certain way. >> addicts are prone to extremes, they really are but religious, you know, religionostiy and all i don't see that much you'd be surprised. yes, i agree in that case but -- >> george bush would have appreciate ad 12-step program, i'm su i'm sure. >> on your your show you have eight good looking sex addicts living together. now isn't this a recipe for
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disaster? >> -- in mine, it is a professional environment like drug addicts together. yes, drug addicts do drugs and do it again. >> drug addicts are different because there are no drugs around but people are there, good looking people. >> but we really wanted it. >> you wanted it. >> i really wanted sexual sobriety and a lot of toes people were desperate like my friend jenny all of those people had come to the end of the road. of course there was flirtation and kinds of the immediate kind of like, oh, yeah, that's cute or this is cute but the points is you wanted sobriety more than you wanted to get laid again. >> we helped them in that and had them dress a certain way, not allowed to touch each other on them constantly. >> what about during the night, come on. >> nothing. >> it was impossible. >> we back by 10:00. >> we had the crew on them and nursing staff on them, the way we watch for drugs and alcohol in our unit we watch for sexual improprieties. the only thing we cannot monitor was masturbation. we trust them to tell us and they did tell us when that happened. >> once. >> nicole, did you confess about
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that? >> no, i didn't. i was -- >> she made it. >> she made it through. >> uh-huh. >> good for you, good for you. all gorgeous people are there any ugly sex addicts you treat, doctor? i mean, are all of them so gorgeous? >> i don't cast these shows, i don't get involved in for me if i come upon somebody and need treatment i can't say wait until the camera is off. i stay out of that part as i can. >> there are more men than women. >> boy a lot of love addicts out there are women. >> love addicts. >> flirting with -- >> the women get a romantic spin. they are love addicts and men are sex addicts. >> you know what, it's funny. i wish there was almost a different name for love addict because it does sound like -- >> it is co-dependency sort of isn't it? >> it is. >> but such a deeper issue dealing with abandonment and intimacy issues. i didn't know there was a
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difference between sex and love. i thought they were the same thing. >> i see. of course. >> until i did the show. >> a lot of people make that mistake. you're not alone in that. >> that's true but that's how people get into trouble right there. listen, we live in a time when n this country behave droid intimacy. we have the substitute is arousing activity and extreme sports. that is not intimacy, we lost track of that and our families disrupted for that and we don't have good models for it and sex becomes the surrogate and that's what nicole is talking about. >> and my relationships, that's what i dealt with, i lived most of my relationships in intensity rather than intimacy. >> are you both be a stinnent now? because you could call sarah palin. >> something people get confused. you have to define your own bottom line for. me i'm not allowed to -- masturbate compulsively or look
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at internet porn or look at hook-up sites but actually i am allowed to have sex with consentsing adults because i wasn't. >> the danger thing, you don't feel that anymore? >> well, that's absolutely my behavior. the thing that what absolutely worse. >> the tough one. >> yeah. >> more when we come back. don't go away.
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i'm back with my guest dr. drew pinsky from the vh1 show "sex rehab with dr. drew" and two of the cast members british film director duncan roy and "playboy" playmate nicole narain. i have questions from people who tweeted and twittered and all. >> that please. >> we went through the difference between male and female. one is love and one is sex sort of. >> they end up in the same place very often and the roads there tend to be different. >> this is from eve. do you think the way we americans view sex has something to do with the problem of sexual addiction? >> i don't. peel make a big deal about that
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we are so prudish and puritanical. i don't see that, i see nothing but sex in this country. you come from another country. do you see that -- >> you're from england. >> i don't see you as being prudish but strict ideas about the whole gay/straight thing. for me that's a complete -- that's so american because i think people have a lot more sexual fluidity in europe than they do here. >> you think so. >> o lot of my male friends have had encounters with other men but here they'd be he's in the closet or he's in denial. you know, there it's just like, okay, i trite it. it wasn't for me, fine, move on. >> that's why people say all the brits are gay. now we know why. >> strange enough, most -- most straight men would encourage women to like maybe perform for them, you know, two women in the bed like a big straight maneast thing apparently. what does that mean for most women they are closeted lesbians? >> it's different for women. >> why? because they couldn't get hurt.
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>> i don't know. explain when we talk about pedophilia or exhibitionism. >> yes. >> like another category of sexual addiction, are they not. >> they can be another category or could also be part of sexual addiction but things can be treated oftentimes one of the things. >> peek feel yeah i think is -- a lot of trouble treating those people. >> very difficult. one of the things we tell patients is please get hurt before you hurt somebody else or yourself. those roads you go down. >> how about medication, does that work at all? >> medicine has a role to be played but really only in certain diagnostic situations not particularly treatment for sexual addiction per se. >> let me do another one before we go. married to a sex addict 20 years she writes he needed more than just having sex with me he needed the danger like you were saying, the threat of being caught at even the possibility of dying during sex. >> well, that's -- duncan said that, too. >> wow. dying, did you ever feel -- >> i felt like i was trying to replicate what i was doing as a kid. when you are being raped when you're 4 years old, you are kind
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of dying. you know? you don't know when it's going to end. the pain is overwhelming, you think, you know, being challenged in so many ways. so finding that as an adult often takes you into very, very terrible places. >> let me get a last one from nicole. nicole, do you feel like you are almost over this? >> i definitely -- >> where are you in all this? >> i'm in los angeles right now. >> no, i mean where are you emotionally. >> oh. ha-ha. >> although, that might have said it. >> you're right. >> i'm so bad. i dyed my hair black -- brown. where am i in recovery? >> yes. >> believe it or not, i feel really good about my recovery right now. i actually haven't even had sex in like over a month and that's just my choice good. >> for you. it's better. >> yeah. i'm single. i'm single and i'm dating but i'm just kind of taking my time.
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>> i've got to go. >> okay. >> thank you all. dr. drew, hang tight. hollywood stars and compulsive behavior. i know, shocking!
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-- america's culture of addiction in celebrities. these days nicholas cage in serious financial trouble thanks to what some call a crippling consumer addiction and kirstie alley seems to battle a food addiction and will star in a new show chronicling her battles. back with me is dr. drew and joining us -- and ashley banfield host of "open court" on tru tv.
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welcome everybody. >> thank you. >> let's talk about kirstie and what she said on oprah yesterday. >> i was doing cocaine. i was crazy as -- you know, i'd come in and i don't think anybody knew what those kind of drugs were then they would say you're so crazy and i'd go, i know i'm high but they didn't believe it. >> when did you stop doing drugs? >> 1979. i only did drugs for a couple of years but i did my share and yours. >> did she replace a drug addiction with a food addiction, dr. drew? >> it seems that way. it certainly can be case as you know we discussed sexual addiction some people can get sober from a chemical addiction and later these behavioral addictions kick in. that does happen. >> you see this a lot, ashley, don't you in your work? >> i actually see witt my colleagues. jane velez-mitchell has written this amazing book about addictions and we replace one for another and an addictive personality we all have in some
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sense, some more than others but we all have a bit of a problem. >> but some are safe addictions. is every addiction a bad addiction? >> exercise, they say is a great addiction. i'm sorry i don't have that one rimplsts but bulemia is not. >> -- made it sound like it is not a good thing. >> addiction by definition the consequences have to be negative. that defines addiction. >> say it again slowly. >> continued behavior or occupation despite negative consequences in important areas of your life. work or school -- >> it has to have a negative impact. see with weight and food addictions it gets a little tricky on the one hand you have like queen latifah saying i'm big and beautiful then the anorexic starlet saying i look gorgeous this way so women don't know if they are addicted, fat, too skinny or what. >> i've got to say in my treatment center these days if somebody has a bad enough
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addiction to see me a chemical addiction nearly a hundred percent probability of childh d childhood -- we see a plult misty, cutting, eating disorder os -- go together. >> the number of celebrities out there, mostly women who come on television or go on magazines and do these tell-all interviews how proud they are of their look or larger-than-life look and next year are losing 75 pounds he. >> -- to get a reality show. not to get another reality how is but kirstie had a show on shotime. >> actually i enjoyed that show but acting out sort of as herself. >> "fat actress". >> and capitalized on her weight. >> she was an actress and i sort of found that show entertaining and now sort of real life, not entertaining for me anymore. >> she lost a lot of weight on
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the jenny craig diet. they paid me and i lost a lot -- >> in my work we are trying to figure out how to motivate people to do these things. >> he's saying -- you're saying if you pay someone they might give up the addiction. >> listen. look at celebrity rehab programs i do. mogs of these people were not interested in recovery but interested in being on tv and getting paid but we brought them in and treated them and their lives were changed because we motivated them to get into treatment. >> what makes you think they are not going to back to their usual behavior at the end of the tv -- >> the reality is they could but -- >> are they not, they're cured. >> no one is ever cured from addiction but doing better than average. >> do you think people on rooemt shows which you are on. >> >> he addicted to tv and the spotlight. >> depends how you got on. for me, they approached me and i never thought i would be -- >> not you. everybody else, though. >> he did a whole neelz on narcissism in reality shows. >> i know about your book.
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i think it depends on the person. i don't think you can say there is a rule for anybody. for me, i've made a business out of this. i'm a spokesperson for kodak doing all these -- i'm writing a book and have all these things happening. am i guilty for wanting to be successful and capitalize on something? i'm making money to support my shopping addiction. >> let's talk about shopping addiction because. >> okay. >> another alleged hollywood addict nicklaus cage is suing his former money manager for sending him into debt but now he says sources say he was addicted to spending. here's some of the stuff that cage owns, i'll give you a list. >> i want to hear. >> a dozen homes around the world, a few dozen cars like this bugoti. only 710 of them were made. a gulfstream private jet which cost about $50 million. >> wow. >> he also own as couple islands in the bahamas. some meet or rights, a dinosaur skull. >> i would love a dinosaur skull
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that would look stunning on my mantle. and $9 million 18th century cast castle. he makes only about $20 million a year and taxes, forget bit. >> that doesn't matter. >> what doesn't matter. >> scratch all that off the block. >> his big spending ticket. if you go to a nice restaurant in new york city you go there because you figure you can afford it f. all of a sudden you find out tomorrow that your manager has not told you that you don't have the money to go to nobu, you are in trouble. so your restaurant is his leer jet t. shouldn't matter what the tickets are. they make for good talking on the show here but doesn't matter what he bought. the fact of the matter it is all about the paperwork. >> he spent more than he has. >> but you know what, my manager doesn't tell me how much can spend at nobu. i know how much i can spend. >> you have a sense. >> i'm in touch with my money. >> why isn't he checking his -- >> when you get your bank statement, at least for me because i do. >> i check every check to make sure i signed it. i sign every check. >> this is --
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>> she's a businesswoman. >> i'm a businesswoman. >> what is this about? >> this is grandi dz ose on a grand scale and worry he is is bipolar or manic something fueling this and some people get very high on debting, actually not the buying but the debting -- >> what turns them on about being in debt? >> very often it's people that have struggled early in life where their back was against the wall and they only really feel alive in that situation. >> that is so interesting. i once her on oprah or someplace gamblers, come pullsive could be bipolar. >> they can be. >> my father was a gambler and i'd say did you win. >> nah. >> they prefer to lose. >> they feel alive when losing. it's hard -- >> trying to get the next win, that's the high. >> there's some that disassociate. they sit at a machine and go out of body there. are reported cases they go to a casino in diapers so disassociated. >> they don't allow that in atlantic city. >> just vegas. >> vegas.
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>> people coming up and busting them in diapers. what you are talking about? >> i don't want anybody in diapers in my room. >> crossing over this again. the fact most gamblers like the sensation of losing when their back is against the wall. >> not when they are winning? >> some do, some enjoy winning by my experience. >> my heart races when i'm winning. >> of course. you're not the addict. >> it's normal to get excited when you win at roulette. >> of course it is. >> i guess i'm normal. >> when you sue somebody for $20 million i think you are pissed off and i think this is the issue with cage saying i'm not like joe, smart enough to follow my own money and pay this guy a whole lot of money to follow it for me. >> the thing is we had to find out in court if they have an agreement i do have carte blanche to manager your money without checking each time or do we check with each other on every transaction. that's key.
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>> why doesn't he sell his plane? >> he's in a lot of trouble. >> but sell one plane and he'll collect. >> he's putting everything on the market. the islands. >> -- at a price. >> somebody is. >> it seems to me, i know women, you know women on the upper east side who are shopping addicts. >> yes. >> you see them buying 100 fendi and gucchi bags. >> yes. >> and manola shoes. are those real addicts or can they afford it -- or their husbands afford it a lot of it is their husbands' money. >> that's true. does it matter. >> it matters if people have emotional disregulation. you've rufrd earlier the emptyiness. that it becomes more of an compulsion or addiction. >> else that the pathology involved. >> >> he an emptiness inside. >> some women do it because they are lonely and their husbands don't come home until 11:00 or at all and they shop all day and it is sort of feeling that emptiness.
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>> you have to lower the volume. i get high buying a lipstick. you gotten have to have a gucci bag to get this feemg. >> i have a problem with shoes. >> we all have a problem with shoes. >> i do. explain that to me. >> thank you so much for being here today. that was a lot of fun.
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what the republicans have been doing is an insult to america. they've been dragging their fetal. these are foot-dragging, knuckle-dragging neanderthals who think they can dictate policy to america by being stubborn. >> the greatest, knuckle draggingny ander thats. apparently voters in virginia s
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is -- didn't agree. i'm joined by the man who threw those bombs florida congressman alan grayson. congressman thank you for joining me. i really do enjoy you, i must tell you. >> same here. i enjoy you, too. >> yeah. but you know, the governors races were won by republicans in virginia and new jersey and obama stumped for both of them. what does this say about obama's influence these days is it waning or okay, what do you think? >> well, look, there's lessons for both parties for the democratic party we have to activate our vote. the republicans activate their vote but the democrats this year haven't done as good job as republicans in that regard. the voter turnout in virginia was down by half since last year. >> oh. >> now, i don't think half of all voters in virginia just disappeared. what happens was some felt motivated to vote and too many people on our side didn't feel motivated to vote and that's why there was such a sharp drop in democratic votes in both states. we have to motivate our base. >> it was interesting the exit
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polls in virginia and new jersey all of them said they still like president obama, their vote had nothing to do with him. do you agree with that? >> well, look, people elected obama, they elected me, they elected the democrats and put us in charge of the government because they want change. and they need to see more of it. we need to deliver. we need to make sure that the people who voted for us with expectations in minds have those expectations satisfied, that simple. >> uh-huh. >> lessons for the republicans, too. you didn't talk about the election in new york. >> i'm about to ask you about that one because that was one for the team. >> well, listen, i think we're witnessed the intend grags of a major american political party something that happens only about once a century. the last time that two of those counties in that new york congressional district were represented by democrats was in 1850. 1850. so, i think what we're seeing is that the teabaggers are no longer obeying their corporate paymasters. >> interesting both limbaugh and
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palin both backed the republican up there. and it didn't work. i love that. does it mean the attack machine, what is it about the right-wing attack machine they are full of bluster and out there all the time voicing their hatred, a lot of it and still doesn't translate into votes by and large? >> they're down to 20% of the american electorate. only 20% of americans identify themselves as republicans now. and even at 20%, it's split and splintered and falling apart. >> what does it say about independent voters this whole thing, do you think? >> the independent voters have a lot of say. they are the balance of power between the two parties. but, i think at this point we're down to one and a half parties because the republicans just can't seem to get it together. they have nothing to offer ordinary people. >> thank you. >> you ask what people want for health care, for education, for jobs, the republicans have no answers for any of that. they are the party of no and no doesn't cut it anymore. >> thank you very much for joining us. i hope you're going to keep speaking out and saying those wonderful things we say.
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we like them! >> thank you, joy. thank you very much. >> okay. okay. thank you very much, congressman. i want to turn to randy whoedz nationally syndicated radio talk show host. hi. >> hi, joy. congratulations. >> thank you. let's start with these races. what did you make of all of it? >> well, one of them i thought was a real change election and the other one, you know, i thought -- >> which one? >> oh, well, i thought new jersey, you know, goldman sachs, corzine, he i think they had had it with the whole wall street bailout. >> drew: can't blame people for being aggravated by. >> that i don't. i don't blame them, i really don't blame them and he ran a dirty campaign quite frankly. i don't think corzine needed to go there with the fat joke do you know what i mean? >> do you think that has something to do with why corzine lost? >> it's what everybody ended up talking about instead of how they will bring jobs to new jersey or lower property taxes, everybody was saying, oh, my god jon corzine who's not -- >> i think because they didn't like corzine and had nothing to
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do with the fat joke. >> you wouldn't want to have dinner with jon corzine. >> no? >> i don't think so. >> have you had dinner with him? >> no. >> but i read that you said the governor races yesterday were a vote for obama. now, we lost both of them. >> what i said it's a change election. >> oh. >> see, i really think new jersey was voting for change and i think virginia was voting for change. now, virginia, i think they made a huge mistake because the kind of change they're going to get is going to be women are chattlel. >> in virginia. >> -- they are still fighting slavery. virginia is one of the best managed states in the united states because they are 12 years of democratic governors, tim kaine, a phenomenal governor and they have, who's leaving now, mark warner. they are mark warner. and so, they're -- their finances in virginia are really, really solid. the thing on the ballot was a transportation issue. there's a lot of traffic in northern virginia mostly and so
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they were very upset about transportation. this guy bob mcdonnell that won, bob mcdonnell, i mean, bob mcdonnell like when you and me were chattel, we couldn't own things or vote. that's who bob mcdonnell. >> ah, those were the days. >> ohh! but he ran as a moderate. that's the thing that nobody wants to talk about. bob mcdonnell decided to put all the social issues aside and run with bob love's job or bob four jobs as a complete moderate. never talked about social issues, which is what these conservatives are harping on and they're going to lose. >> do you think that all of this kind of like teapartying that's going on and the palins and limbaughs and becks are they harming the republican party? >> joy, i think that's -- the one race they inserted themselves in a big way. >> 23rd district. >> new york. >> in new york, yeah. >> this was like -- >> that was an interesting thing. >> that was a talk radio race. that's what they was. they needed to win one so beck
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and rush and sean and mark levin, believe it or not like a bunker in his bedroom somewhere planning all this all the time with his landmark legal foundation and his -- his, you know, screaming screaming and yelling. he is im'ing sean handy every day telling him what to say. they picked this new york 23rd race and decided they would back the conservatives. there was a republican and a conservative. they backed the conservative. this guy, hoffman, no one knew him. he's an accountant. he was a cpa. >> why didn't they back the republican? >> because they wanted to show that the republican party is no longer their party. that the republican -- they're running away from bush. >> do they want a third party? >> they do. they can't get anybody elected for dogcatcher. if you read "the new york times," david brooks, a conservative -- you have to differentiate. he wrote a column saying these guys couldn't get anybody elected with their 600, 700 radio stations. >> i wonder if that's true.
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that could be on the part of david brooks. i'm still worried about them. sit tight. we have more with you. we'll be back in a minute.
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i'm back discussing last night's election results with randi rhodes, a nationally syndicated radio talk show host. let's talk about maine. maine voted to repeal a law that would allow gay marriages. did that surprise you at all? >> you know, joy, i think madison is rolling over in his grave. you know, the reason why we have a legislative branch and the reason why they make the law is so that the majority can never be tyrannical over the minority. every time you put one of these things on the ballot you get all this money coming in from out of state, from out of district, you know, from all over the place. these questions that should
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be decided either by state legislature or by our federal government, quite frankly. barack obama was at the human campaigns right dinner not too long ago and he was the keynote speaker. he made news that day because he said he would end "don't ask, don't tell." the other news he made was that he was going to work to repeal doma, the defense of marriage act. there's where it belongs. it belongs legislated in the house and senate and signed by the president and get it done. it's surprising to me, all these conservatives with their values. they pick and choose from the constitution what they like. the 14th amendment applies to other people besides george bush. the 14th amendment is equal protection and belongs to everybody. all rights commonly available to you, me, and everybody that's watching are available to all people. regardless -- that's why it was very important that the hate crimes legislation for the first time barack obama put the whole glbt, transgendered, too, into federal law. that was the first time there
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was ever a law that mentioned in federal law gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered people. now, he's got to -- >> why is it that whenever they put it on a ballot, a proposition or anything it dies? >> so much money goes in the district. you have church money coming in which, you know, separation of church and state. they kind of like it, but, you know, then the churches get involved and they -- they like their tax exempt status but don't want to stay out of politics. you get this money coming in from people. i think maine saw -- even this hoffman guy in new york 23, all the money came from outside the district. maine, same thing. it came from this group, something like people for the defense of marriage or something like that. it's out of state money. >> it always fascinates me how heteros are upset about gay marriage. as if my husband is a drunk and he beats me, but it's because frank and larry are getting married i'm having a problem. >> my husband used to say, what i need is another wife. you're too much for me to do.
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get somebody else. >> do you think this maine vote is going to stop the momentum of gay rights or another little glitch? >> when you leave it to the public -- the public is never going to vote themselves higher taxes but they want better schools. public is never going to vote other people rights when they're not part of that group. >> in this country we don't know what we're getting for taxes. in europe, you have health care, trains running all over the place. you get your money's worth. >> joy, you have socialism. >> that's why people don't want to pay taxes here's because we don't get that much for it. >> i think we do. we're in new york city and have the most amazing mass transportation. we have -- i can come from d.c. to here in, you know, two hours. >> big deal, but you can't go to chicago really easily. takes forever. >> that's what warren buffett is building. >> good for him. thanks, randi. thank you and thanks to all of my guests tonight. good night, everybody.
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breaking news tonight. live, ohio, cops raid the home of a convicted sex offender accused of yet another sex attack. inside his three-story cleveland home, seasoned detectives stunned, women's bodies hidden throughout, bodies on every floor of the home, even stuffed in crawl spaces. bombshell tonight, in the last 24 hours, the body count rises. now, 11 dead women in the three-story home of former marine, anthony sowell.
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and the excavation goes on. so far, only one positive i.d. made. reported missing one year ago, a mother of two girls and one boy, tonia carmichael. i.d.'d through dental records. also, i.d.'d in the last 24 hours. tonight, her daughter with us. her mother's body hidden in this house of horrors for the last year. just hours ago, sowell, in full shackle, in court. and yet another bizarre twist, we confirm just weeks after sowell's release from the pen, he lists himself on a sex website seeking "a submissive." is this one of the ways the former marine trolled for victims? tonight, unsuspecting neighbors in shock over an alleged serial killer living amongst them.
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>> we have recovered 11 victims. we have recovered ten bodies and one partial skeleton from the imperial avenue address. they're all african-american women. seven died of ligature strangulation, one died of manual strangulation, and two the decomposition of the body precludes accuracy. we're diagnosing that as homicidal violence in two cases. and the last case, the autopsy is ongoing. does not appear to have a ligature and will undoubtedly be a case of manual strangulation or homicidal violence. >> it is now mounting to nearly a dozen dead women. are there more? put money on it. >> there were some in the attic. that's where they were first discovered. two bodies so badly decomposed, we're told, that they couldn't even determine the sex right away. they also found bodies in a crawl space below some stairs.
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they found a skull inside of a bucket in the basement. they also found bodies buried outside behind the home. >> seems like every time they go into this house, they find something more. they're going to tear through this place wall to wall and make sure there's nothing left to be found. and breaking news tonight, live, the florida panhandle, a close-knit community reeling after a newborn baby girl sleeping in the same bedroom as her parents vanishes without a trace. halloween. the story now becoming more distorted. as we go to air, is there a break in the case? police, as we speak, combing a gray van for evidence. but tonight, we want to know who took baby shannon.
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shocking revelations in the search for missing 7-month-old baby girl shannon dedrick. the family babysitter alleges a pattern of abuse and begs the state for help. but that babysitter also faced allegations of abuse herself. >> something is not fitting together with the story. this is a 7-month-old baby girl. she cannot walk. it's my understanding she cannot crawl yet. >> another huge gap in this story is the fact that the parents have not made any personal appeals. i really believe that this story is going to be solved, or this case will be solved close to home, rather than far away from home. >> the department of children and families releasing information on two investigations. into shannon's parents, chrystina lynne mercer and james. >> i think they're alleging foul
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play. i think they seem to be pointing fingers directly at the parents. >> one investigation into drug use around the child. the second investigation over allegations members of the home shook baby shannon. both investigations result in no criminal charges. >> it is disturbing. i think there's some serious questions about these parents. and the fact that they would be asleep from 3:00 a.m. until 11:00 just does not make sense. >> parents forced to complete counseling and take drug dess, as the search continues for baby shannon. many are asking, did this have to happen in the first place? >> good evening. i'm nancy grace. i want to thank you for being with us. breaking news tonight, live, ohio. cops raid the home of a convicted sex offender accused of yet another sex attack. inside his three-story cleveland home, seasoned detectives stunned. women's bodies hidden throughout. bodies on every floor of the home, even stuffed in the crawl spaces. bombshell tonight, as the excavation goes on in and around
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the home, a former marine, anthony sowell, the body count of murdered women rises. >> 11 victims. there were six inside the house, and five recovered from the yard. seven ligature strangulations, one manual strangulation, two that are going to be homicidal violence, and then one autopsy is going on. >> breaking news. we now have 11 bodies recovered at the home of anthony sowell. he was in court today. >> given the nature and the gruesomeness of the allegations that have been placed against you, the court believes that you be held without bond. >> i have to believe they'll go back to the house and dig a little deeper, because of the skull, and we need to find where the rest of the body's at. >> the bodies buried in the ground, decomposed eight times slower than a body left in air. so we had two in the third floor out in the air. we had two bodies under dirt.
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and we had five buried in the yard. so they're all decomposing at different rates. it could be months to years in how long they've been down there. >> we'll go bit by bit, piece by piece through the house. make sure we didn't miss anything. >> leaving no stone unturned? >> yes. >> ripping things apart? >> yep. >> the excavation goes on. the police now set to tear down the walls to look in the walls starting in the morning. for those of you just joining us, cleveland suburbs, the body count rises inside a three-story house of horrors. a former marine, anthony sowell, lives there. in the last 24 hours, the body count goes up to 11 murdered women. out to dan haggerty, standing there out in front of the home. he's joining us from wews.
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dan haggerty, 11 dead murdered women. so far, what are the cops' plans? what more is there to investigate? i understand they have yet to tear the walls down? >> they said they plan to dig a little deeper. that may be an underestimate. they're working on getting a warrant today to go in tomorrow morning with the fire department and they're literally going to rip this home apart. they're going to tear down the walls. they're going to check every inch. they're going to make sure nothing else is inside of this house, that there's no more evidence. and for sure, there are no more bodies. >> hold on. you mean they've got to get an additional warrant in order to tear the walls down? >> yeah, that's what we hear. we hear that they had to have a different type of search warrant to be able to go in there and actually start to demolish parts of the home, to tear down the walls. and to search inside the actual structure of the house. >> dan haggerty joining us outside the home with wews. dan haggerty, i understand that they can confirm eight of the women died by strangulation,
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seven of them by ligature. for instance, with a rope or a pair of stockings. one by manual strangulation. is it true that the ligatures were still around the necks of the dead women? >> right. it was real hard for the coroner to figure that one out. that's how they knew that the suspect here, possibly anthony sowell, used either a cord or a rope to strangle his victims. they said when they found these decomposed bodies, the ones that they knew had been strangled in that way, still had that rope or that cord around their neck. >> to ken robinson, joining us from wtam, 1100 news radio, also joining us in front of sowell's home. ken robinson, what more can you tell me? are people still gathering out in front of the home? this is day three, wondering every time they bring a gurney out with a body on it, is that my mother, is that my sister, is that my daughter under that sheet?
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>> that's absolutely correct. people have been here since day one. waiting on the coroner, waiting in front of the house, looking, watching, wondering what's going to happen next. this series of crimes has rocked this neighborhood. there's a gamut of emotions flowing through the neighborhood right now from anguish. people wondering why police didn't find out something was going on here earlier. people wondering, are they safe now? some have lost confidence in the police. i had one gentleman tell me that he's thinking about starting his own patrol through the neighborhood because he's lost confidence in the police department. >> i want to go to a special guest joining us right now. everyone, we are taking your calls live. and with me right now is the daughter of the one woman who has been identified so far. the mother of three. she had two girls and one boy. with me is donnita carmichael,
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the daughter of tonia carmichael. miss carmichael, thank you for being with us. >> thank you for having me on. me and my family. >> we are showing some absolutely beautiful shots of your mom. we've got her at a barbecue, we've got her in front of a little gambling slot machine. there she is wearing a baseball cap. there she is dressed in a santa claus outfit. got a little hat on. there she is with her family. and i just cannot imagine leaving lucy, my little girl, and john david, my little boy, behind. to grow up in this world without a mother. tell me how you learned that your mother's body had been hidden in this home for a year.
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>> well, nancy, first of all, let me just thank you for putting this story out there. i was listening to the show as it got started, and i was hearing the response you had given it. it was not just like you were speaking from the family. you know, a lot of those things you touched on as far as what's still taking so long for the other families to find out the information that we tragically had to find out today is still unbelievable. a search warrant, are you kidding me? you know? it's devastating enough that this murderous person was able to stay out on the streets and do this heinous act that he's done for so long. without being detected. it's just very hard to believe. >> everyone, you are seeing -- >> but my grandmother is doing well. unfortunately the information she had to find out about her child is discomforting because she lost a child.
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i lost a mother, as well as my older sister and my younger brother. as you can see from the pictures, she had a beautiful smile. she was a beautiful person. she was a family-oriented person. she loved her family. she loved the holidays. she loved to horseback ride. she loved to make jokes to make her grandchildren smile. that's the legacy we're trying to make sure gets out there. the slot machines, she loved vegas, she loved going to the bahamas. those were the things, for the ones who really truly knew my mother.
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some looked very old. years, not months. but it's hard to tell. it's difficult.
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there's four or five different disposal situations with different characteristics. at a crawl space, open air in a room, cool basement, buried in earth, and so they're all going to decompose at different rates. and internally, body size and infection at the time of death can alter decomposition as well. >> and the excavation goes on in the cleveland home, a three-story home of former marine, anthony sowell. the body count has actually risen. it is now at 11. and we learned tonight that sowell may be linked to other crimes on women in california. isn't it correct, dan haggerty joining us from wews, that sowell was stationed with the marines, he was honorably discharged in both north carolina and california? what can you tell me about the possibility he's connected to crimes in california? >> i don't know about the possibility of him being
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connected to these crimes. all we know right now is he did enlist in the marines. this is in 1978. he was 18 years old. he was a marine for eight years. he did serve in north carolina and california. and we know that he is being investigated right now as possibly connected to unsolved rapes there in those states. but for now, especially in concord, california, doing investigations there to see if he's connected to any unsolved rapes there. but for now, that's all we know about that part of the investigation. >> stacey newman, our producer on the story, stacey, what more have we learned as we went to air tonight? >> just when you think it couldn't get any more bizarre tonight, nancy, we haven't -- we have uncovered that anthony sowell, he trolled a sex fetish website. was he using this to learn victims? we don't know. but what i can tell you is, just weeks after his release from prison, he put up a profile, wanting to dominate women using the sex fetish website.
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>> you are seeing the anthony sowell profile from a sex fetish website, alt.com, the one that stacey newman is describing right now. stacey, are you telling me that he did this just weeks after getting out of the pen on attempted rape? >> just weeks. and what we've also uncovered is, his last login was at least about three months ago. >> we are taking your calls live. to barbara in maryland. hi, barbara. >> caller: hi, nancy. >> hi, dear. what's your question? >> caller: i just want to say that i wish there were more people in the world like you, we would be so much better off. you and your twins are angels. >> thank you. >> caller: and my question was, why on earth wasn't anyone watching this monster when he was released from prison? >> to sergeant scott haines, sheriff's officer, florida. sergeant, i've never seen --
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well, actually i have seen a few cases like this. he got sentenced to 15 years. he did the full 15. that's my understanding. and that is extremely rare. they did not let this guy out. and he did all sorts of classes behind bars, like cage your rage. they made him go through that. they made him go through anger management. clearly they knew he had a severe problem. >> absolutely. somebody who does the full 15 years doesn't get paroled, or out on probation, and kept that entire time, they're a dangerous person. they're not going to be rehabilitated. and they had a responsible to follow this person closely. >> what about it, pat brown? >> absolutely. i mean, this guy probably committed lots of crimes before he was 30 when he went in, and we have seen he's committed lots of crimes when he came out.  they said it would never last.
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it's the longest-lasting plugins ever. get freshness that won't fade away for 60 days. ahhh! with plugins lasting impressions. and yes, it's glade. s.c. johnson, a family company. six of them are described as african-american women, and at least five of them appear to have been strangled. they were all found in and around the house of 50-year-old anthony sowell. >> you could smell the dead bodies. >> there are a whole lot of people showing up in this neighborhood. dozens of missing women, and their families and their loved ones that have been showing up here, and trying to figure out if their loved ones are one of the bodies inside of this home. >> the likelihood that there are victims in other places, missing people who were never recovered, and no one knows their whereabouts, is extremely high.
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>> i guarantee it, they look at california, north carolina, where he was stationed with the marines, there are going to be women there who have never been found, never been accounted for. >> we've obtained a warrant to get the dna from the suspect. we're in the process of now entering it in the state database and also the national database, to see if we have any hits relative to any criminal activity relative to this particular suspect across our nation. >> this is exactly ten bodies in different stages of decomposition. how can you not smell that? how can you not investigate it a little bit better? >> it's no longer ten bodies. the body count rising in the last 24 hours to 11 bodies. and now an additional search warrant has to be obtained in order for the police to start tearing down the walls. don't think that is so far-fetched. if you recall, the recent yale medical student, annie le, she was murdered, her body hidden in
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a 24-inch space in the wall. before they could tear down this house of horrors, they've got to go back to court and get another search warrant. that is why the wall excavation did not happen today. there is a crowd of mourners and onlookers standing beyond that yellow crime scene tape tonight. wondering each time a body is pulled out on a gurney, is that my mother, my sister, my daughter who's gone missing? we are taking your calls live. out to deb in michigan. hi, deb. >> caller: hi, nancy. i wanted to thank you for fighting for those that don't have a voice. >> thank you. >> caller: my question is, the serial killer, are they going to be looking at his past addresses to see if there are bodies there? >> to dan hagerty joining us there in front of sowell's home, what do we know about that? i mean, i know that he got out of the pen on attempted rape conviction. 15 years in the pen on that.
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did he move straight here to this location, or was there a stopover in between? >> he moved here. he moved to this neighborhood, and this house, in cleveland. and he's lived here since, in 2005, right after being released from prison. like we've been saying, the coroner hasn't given us an exact date on when these women were killed. but they say it could be years, months, or weeks. some say that the killings could have started right after he moved here in 2005. >> back to you, stacey. what do you know about any link to california crimes? >> here's what we know. cops are also looking into coronado, california. this is right near san diego. of course, this is where sowell was stationed. they're looking into a 1979 rape case there. now, i can also tell you, there's reports that a woman in north carolina has come forward to say she believes she was raped by sowell sometime in the '70s. but of course, cops have not been able to verify that. they are still looking into that as well. >> i'm going to go to a special
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guest we have with us tonight dr. lillian glass, psychologist, joining us out of l.a., and pat bremner, criminal profiler and author. also with us is the daughter of the only victim as of tonight that has been positively identified. lillian glass, pat brown, let's talk about it just very briefly before i go to the victim's daughter, donnita carmichael. first to you, lillian glass. i have three scenarios in mind. number one, he is acting out in rage and anger toward women. number two, after being convicted on rape and attempted rape and doing 15 years, he decided to kill all of his future victims so there would be no evidence, no eyewitnesses. and three, he has an insatiable desire to murder. those are my only three scenarios. do you have any other ideas, lillian glass? >> they're all correct and all absolutely right. because this is a man that is a
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misogynist. he hates women. he's methodical in how he kills them -- >> hold on, lillian. excuse me, rosie, i want to see the photos of tonia carmichael. she is a beautiful mother of three. she leaves behind two girls and a boy. her body hidden in sowell's home for the past year. decomposing, along with the bodies of ten other women, that we know of. go ahead, lillian. >> no, you're absolutely correct. when you're looking at the pain that this family has to endure now, my heart goes out to the daughter and to all of the relatives. because it's so difficult. >> to you, pat brown. theories on motive? not that the state needs motive.
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but you can't tell me this guy's crazy. don't even start singing that same tired song. he's trolling on the internet looking for victims as recently as nine weeks ago. he's not crazy. but what about motive? >> nancy, you'll never hear the crazy word from me when it comes to serial killers. serial killers are psychopaths and they want power and control. somewhere in their lives they lost it and want to get back at society, and particularly women. they like to put the blame somewhere. i would be curious to see what his behaviors were in the marines. a lot of times you get the honorable discharge because they want to get rid of you or accused of throwing you out for no reason. they'll give you an honorable discharge just to get you out of there. it will be interesting to see. he had to have committed crimes before that time. he did not just jump up and decide to start raping and murdering women. >> i think you may be right about that, pat brown. veterans all over this country are shocked that this guy is a
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former marine that served our country. i want to go to dr. kent harshbarger, medical examiner, forensic pathologist. of course, we know that many of these bodies still had the ligature around the neck. and that's a whole other psychological can of worms, all right? but before i go there, how can they tell with the other bodies, the mode of death? >> well, it's assumed from the scene, generally, if they can't find a death because of the decomposition, you will assume it will be homicidal violence -- >> i was wondering about that. >> we say undetermined. it means we can't tell. but from the scenario, the circumstances around this death, there's no other explanation other than violence. >> dr. harshbarger, have you ever dealt with a forensic artist, a reconstructionist?
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i had to unfortunately as a prosecutor when bodies were so decomposed they could not be identified. so you could get a composite sketch of what you thought the victim looked like in life, so as to identify her. have you ever dealt with one of those artists? >> yes, i have. it's rare nowadays because of dna analysis and other technologies. but it is done. it's done by tissue thicknesses on the skull and then they make a clay model and then make renderings from that. it takes an artist, the hair color, eye color, the shape of the nose. the artist is creating the look of this person. >> it's very, very difficult. it's a highly, highly specialized field. to donnita carmichael, this is tonia carmichael's daughter. her mother's body has been positively identified as one of the 11 women in sowell's home.
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miss carmichael, i didn't hear during our last interchange how you discovered your mother was one of sowell's alleged victims. >> the police actually came to my grandmother's home, my mom's mother's home, and told us that there was a positive dna match. >> i'm just looking at these pictures of your mom, and she has the most beautiful smile. donnita, tell me something about her. what were her joys in life? what was she like? >> well, as you can see from the photographs, she had a gorgeous smile. thank you for the compliment on that. but she loved her family. she loved the holidays and vacations. she loved to cook and prepare meals, thanksgiving or christmas. she loved seafood. she loved trips to vegas.
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she just loved her family. >> she loved life. everyone, you are seeing shots of victim tonia carmichael. she is one of 11 that we know of, as the body count rises in that cleveland suburb. tonight, safety tips. women are easy targets. especially at night. how can you protect yourself? have a place to meet others if you become separated. never leave a drink unattended. it's so easy to slip something like ghb, the date rape drug, in a drunk. designate a safe driver or use a taxi service, please. identify security guards. locate exits in case of emergency. and trust your instinct. if you don't feel safe for whatever reason, leave. for more information, go to nfpa.org.
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41-year-old james arthur baker and his wife, susan, also 41, reported their 3-year-old son, paul, missing. a massive search for the boy turned up nothing. meanwhile, james and susan baker moved out of south carolina and into rural washington county, florida. authorities were suspicious. washington county sheriff's investigators began walking the baker property closely. south carolina authorities had received a tip the bakers had killed their son and dumped the body. >> law enforcement says they have a person of interest but still refuse to name them. where is 7-month-old baby shannon? >> straight out to allison walker with wmbb. allison, i understand as we go to air, police are searching a gray van in connection with little shannon's disappearance. who owns the van?
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>> the sheriff's office and the florida department of law enforcement are not saying who owns the van. we know they have it at the sheriff's office. they are looking for evidence in the van, searching it thoroughly. neighbors have said that shannon -- or that susan baker does drive a gray van, but we do not have that confirmed. we don't know that for sure. >> now, clark goldband, susan baker would be the babysitter? >> yes, nancy. she is the babysitter. she's been there about two months working with the family. susan baker, the babysitter, also sending an e-mail to the governor of florida, charlie crist, pleading with him just a few weeks ago, to save the child. saying the child is around an abusive household. the child has been shaken by her parents, and also shannon has also inhaled drugs, such as marijuana, and smoke from cigarettes. when instructed by staff at the hospital not to smoke around the child.
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>> wait a minute, clark goldband, this babysitter has problems of her own. >> she does, nancy. and they stem back to 1987 when the sitter reported her stepson missing. he was 3 years old, went down for a nap. she says when she returned, the child was gone. >> wait a minute, when she returned from where? >> from the home. it's not exactly clear where she went. she says allegedly when she came back from the house, the 3-year-old was gone. as investigators searched all-out for the 3-year-old boy, they examined her 6-year-old stepdaughter and that stepdaughter had welts and broken bones. so this sitter -- >> and she becomes a babysitter in the home where little shannon disappears. but still, to allison walker, that doesn't clear up the discrepan discrepancies. the parents' story, they say the baby's asleep in the room with them. they all sleep until 11:30 in the morning. you know, by that time, i've been up at least five hours.
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so they're sacked out at 11:30 a.m. and then they find out the baby's missing? >> yes, that's true. >> so they place themselves with the missing child at the time she disappears, correct, allison walker? >> that's correct. >> with us tonight, fay woods, the godmother of the missing child, shannon., the godmother of the missing child, shannon. miss wood, thank you for being with us. miss wood, what can you tell me about the home in which this little girl lived? >> i met them, they lived right across the road from where we reside at. i've been in the house several times without telling them knowing i was coming. they had no notice. i would just open up the door and i would go in. and the baby was always fine. they never abused that child. that baby was healthy. and where every said the baby weighed 11 pounds, the baby was not no big 30-pound baby or
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anything. but she weighed more than 11 pounds. she was a preemie when she was born. >> i know how that was. my daughter was born at two pounds. what can you tell me about possible marijuana and cigarette use around the baby? >> now, they did smoke cigarettes. but the marijuana use, no, ma'am. >> i hope that you're right about that. i mean, cigarettes are bad enough. they are a known contributor to sudden infant death syndrome. but marijuana is another animal altogether. miss wood, for the longest time, the parents' names were not even out there. they're not making any public pleas whatsoever. why did they want to keep their names secret? >> the only thing i could figure is they're doing what the sheriff of washington county was asking them to do. >> hmm. kirby clements, allen ripka, this is a conundrum. you've got the parents sacked out until 11:30 a.m. no baby sleeps until 11:30 a.m. it's -- no. all right?
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that's not a statistic, that's just what i know. now you've got this babysitter coming onto the scene. she's had a problem with a missing child way back home from where she came from. kirby, what about it? >> well, first of all, i think the babysitter is suspect number one. because apparently whenever little children are around her, they go missing. in this letter to the governor, who does that? she could call the sheriff. she could have called the family -- children and family services. she writes a letter to the governor. there's something wrong with that babysitter and something afoot with her. i think she's going to be your person. >> allen ripka, what about it? right now there are no named suspects. go ahead, ripka. >> there's no named suspects because they have no evidence against the babysitter or evidence against either one of the parents. >> well, you don't know that. >> if they did, they would certainly be a person of interest or potentially a suspect. >> no, allen. as a matter of fact, they may not want to name them yet. they may know exactly who
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they're looking at. but hoping they'll give them enough rope to hang themselves. i'm sure you've heard of that ploy before, allen ripka. >> well, if you're thinking they want to follow -- >> just to jump up and say they don't have any evidence, that's a bald-faced statement right there. there. >> if you think the police are thinking the parents or baby-sitter are going to lead them to the child, i hope that's the case. there's been nothing said to lead us to that belief. >> you are saying little shannon, everyone, on a happy note, as we go to break, today marks one of the most wonderful days in my life. this time two years ago, my twins, john david and lucy and david and myself were all in intensive care. today they turn two. i believe your prayers were heard. breaking news, prayer changes things. happy birthday lucy and john david. this was this morning about 5:30 a.m.
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i made them cookies to go with their candle. in the other shot, those were paper crowns we made for them to wear today. they said it would never last.
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