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tv   Key Capitol Hill Hearings  CSPAN  August 6, 2015 6:00pm-8:01pm EDT

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at 8:00 eastern, the four major parties, kicking off the longest canadian campaign in election history. elections are october 19. tune in right here on c-span at a clock p.m. or on c-span radio. >> the c-span cities tour visit literary -- visits literary and historic sites across the nation. every other week and on c-span2's book tv and c-span3's american history tv. tour is on each day at 6:00 p.m. eastern. welcome to fort lauderdale, florida, on american history tv. known as the venice of america, fort lauderdale was incorporated in 1911.
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it is located north of miami and about 20 miles from the florida edit rates -- florida everglades. over the course of the next hour we look at the military history of fort lauderdale. >> this is one of 200 buildings that was part of the naval station in fort lauderdale during world war ii. this was an operational base for torpedo bombers. whichf the avenger crews, was a three-man proof, most of them train here. president bush trained here, and there were probably 300 aviators checking through the space. >> later we will visit the port of florida. >> it is the number two port in the world and supplies all of the petroleum for south florida. >> but first, learn about the history of the seminal injury -- seminal indian tribe through the
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artists of seminal history. plays] ♪ concord, 1842. a seek to vanish from the land we love, and yet i will reach -- everglades by morning cap by morning. for thethe okeechobee wildcats battle. i have not seen my wife and children in so long. a few of us went to the loxahatchee river to fight the .reacherous general but we withdrew to fight again another day. the watery greenland our allies. south, loading loading more
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powder and lead. always hungry, pale, sickened by war.long and yet, i will reach the everglades by morning. i haven't seen my wife and children in so long. captured under a white flag of truce. ♪ seminolecker, a painter. i have been drawing and writing since i was really young and it was always my dream to be a writer and a painter. drawings,ainting, my as incorporating seminol
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andory into the modern-daye trying to bring out new things that have not been done yet. seminole history always fires me, the chiefs and the battles and the battles and wars, how -- alwaysed and inspires me, the chiefs and the battles and the wars, how they endured and got through it. hungry, cold, weary, pale, sickened by the long war, yet i will reach the everglades by morning. that one is called "the unconquered, 1842." it was written in the voice of an anonymous seminole warrior of that time, the second seminole war, which was in indian history.
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i wanted to bring out the story of the everyday warriors. you hear a lot of and the other hear players, and you about the drama, but i wanted to just be from the common warrior, his voice. and having gone through it and , wanting to have hope to reach the everglades by morning. , there areminole different types of explanations or stories for it. one of them is that is what we were named by the spaniards. it was kind of a broken down , which means the freed once. there is a word that means the ones who are wild. when you break it down, it all comes back down to seminole. seminoles basically were all these different tribes, creeks, choctaws, even charities --
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cherokee. they are all part of the bloodline that still goes through our veins today. we came to florida when europeans started coming this way. when we started having different types of wars with not only europeans, but different tribes. that is why we ended up coming into florida. if you look at some of the wars that we had, this is what pushed us all the way down into the everglades. when we came down here, the soil was rich. you could make all kinds of corn, andvegetation, livestock was prevalent at that time. rees to deal in cattle with the spaniards. when we came down to the everglades, even the northern parts, maybe around orlando or kissimmee, we were dealing in cattle and it was prosperous for the tribe. we learned not only to adapt, but coming from louisiana,
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alabama, and georgia, if you look at florida, it kind of makes up those three states the way to train and climate are. coming into florida, it was like taking those three states and putting them together. that is how we ended up surviving. you've got alligators in louisiana. you have different types of vegetation in alabama. and you have different types of swampsn georgia -- of in georgia. going by that, we would have the medicines we needed. there was a plant that was prevalent in georgia, but you could also find it in the swamps of the everglades. it was almost like going from the front yard of your house to the backyard of your house, but just adapting toward the length of how big florida is. one of the stories i like to tell a lot is about the first seminole war.
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a lot of people do not know much about them, that we had three of them with the u.s. government. the first was fought over slavery. thesecond was fought over indian removal act. and usually when i go to be two different schools organizations, i bring them in and i asked them, when do you think the third one -- what did you think the third one was taught over? did you want to fight for your survival and ability to live here? and no, it was fought over bananas and vegetables, pretty much. the war was only fought over about a week, but because it was put forward by the u.s. government, it is considered a war. back then, the native americans trying to have that survival have our camps going, keep our children said, to keep our people fed pretty much.
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it may seem little now, but back then it was like, if you take our food, you will take our lives. the impact of the seminole wars, it is rooted in our customs. even in our houses, which are the cheeky huts. before that, we lived in mounds.s -- in we would make it up in a fashion where it would take us not even a day to make it up. if the united states were coming around the owner to take us captive or start a war, we could either get up and leave or burn go further and basically build these houses are again. usually, the women would stay at the camp and the men would go out and protect the village. but if the men were not able to come back fast enough and let's or, another u.s. raid
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whatever you want to call it were coming into the camp, the ladies would put down an extra log and escape into the swamp. lay thatthey would long, it would point in the direction that they left us up and then would come back and look at that. they had all of these survival traits. we had to learn these there is fast. war, thee seminole only roughly 200 to 300 semino le men. women, less than that. we had to learn how to survive. a lot of the seminoles were taken captive and taken to oklahoma. we dispersed into different villages or camps. and they are kind of spread out through florida. which is a good thing, because it shows we had our fingerprints a long time ago within florida.
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even though we had to scatter, i guess you would say, it still kept us close together. because some villages would go and walk to another even if it took days. it shows we would still be looking after each other, even though this village was in tampa or miami, or another was in orando kissimmee -- kissimmee, we were still looking after each other. the seminole population now is roughly between 3500 to 4000 tribal members. we have six different reservations. outn, we are still spread across florida. but on those reservations, you have your own unique tribal members. the biggest reservation that we have is the big cypress reservation.
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that i would say the most language that we passed down to our children. this is what our elders fought really hard for, so we try to honor and preserve that culture and way of life. ♪ >> "seminole girl." florida, she is a seminole girl.
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playful parasol, pint-size alligator. she moves with grace across the in theen no one sees quiet times just before dark. she is heartfelt poetry in motion, a sculpted dream not far from the summit ocean. she is florida, behold and see. playful seminole girl, palmetto parasol. >> the c-span cities tour continues with a look at the settlers of fort lauderdale in the 1800s. >> today, we are in original downtown fort lauderdale. it started here many, many years ago in about 1896. that's when the railroad came,
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and as soon as the railroad came, that's when the people came. we are on the horse -- the historical property of fort lauderdale. heritagehe hope center, which is the design center for the archives. and we have thinking cromarty cromarty-he king house. and of course, we have the beautiful new river in. and we also have an acetylene building, which was a way for them to give us electricity and lighting not only throughout the beautiful hotel and the inn that was established, but also some of the homes owned by mr. bryant in 1907. >> this area here is a campus of buildings that were built by ed king. the buildings were started in
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1904, 1905. most of the new river in was finished -- the new river inn was finished by 1908. but this property was purchased in 1895 by a man who came into put in the railroad beds over here. he came from an area about 200 miles north of here. , i call it new smyrna beach. it is a big citrus area. was a big figure there. he was the town's first mayor. growth --en orange orange groves, citrus groves, packing houses. he owned stores, a sawmill, cattle. new smyrna. man in in 1895, early 1895, there was a massive freeze that totally
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wiped out the crop and the trees in that area and just appended that economy. upended that economy. people were just walking away from their farms. that provided the energy and people that settled in fort lauderdale. desolate.tainly there were not a lot of buildings here. on the side behind me you can see the river. they call it the new river it was spring fed. it was at a crossroads between the railroad and the river. 1896 is when flag was decided to build his railroad to go to miami. actually stopped right here at this location where we are. it did not off the river. and it did not cross the river until it was decided that the frost was so bad up north, he
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needed to go south even more so and crope agricultural building. but it was pretty bare. up until about 1900, there were less than 150 families here that were actually resident of the area. when we look back at history and try to describe the growth, it was slow in its growth, but very much thought out. bryan was a friend of henry flagler. it was really a win-win situation for both of them bryan had aemon whole workforce of people of their that were unemployed. he came down here with 400 and the first thing they had to do area,lear off this whole
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which was by that time basically virgin land. s came time that the bryan down, the only person living hanr was frank tran -- strana and i think yet another couple working for him. he operated an overnight camp overeople taking the stage the county roads. errylso operated the f and he had built a trading post -- he evolved. it was really the source of everything for the community. basically, they grew tomatoes, that is what created the wealth. and part of the process was that brokers would come in and meet the farmers at the docks and by buyr lots of tomatoes --
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there was no place for them to's a, of course. so this -- to stay, of course. house quickly became the place to stay. and there were articles in the paper that they were expanding to have a capacity of 50. i cannot imagine what that structure must have looked like. at the beginning -->> in the beginning, he was putting them a on his front porch and living room. everybody was uncomfortable. so he decided to build an in. the first structure was -- to build an inn. the first structure was wooden. and they decided to use brick and concrete. they go performs here and laid them on top of each other. it must have been quite delightful to stay here, because it was only about three dollars a night and you got three meals , and aplus your room
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beautiful parlor to sit there and have a lovely cocktail and discuss produce with other buyers and get what is going on and get the feel of the land. it was a wonderful place for them to do that, which again, gave us the revenue for other people to come here and grow and performers to be hiring help and for people to be coming to the area. that is what made the area growth first -- grow first agriculturally, with the assistance of the railroad. king was the builder of houses and the casket maker. he was the mover and the shaker and had to be that. as henry flagler started building big hotels down the coast, he got drawn into working on those. --ed had probably five years experience working on the big hotels in palm beach.
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he came in as a very experienced expert. houses.ilt three he built a house that was kind o, and another house that was very nice outside of town. and he built a third house. we call it the king-cromarty house because he married louise king. -- because they cromarty married louise king. it is the fourth oldest house located in broward county. located behind me is the number one registry in the national archives for the state of florida for broward county. this hotel opened in 1908, right about the time that i began. ivity began.to of anove this from sort
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agricultural center. it motivated the locals, and the particularly to say, we've got to get organized. it is surprising for me that for 15 years, all of these farmers and everybody function without any established local authority. they just worked together. other.spected each frank stranahan as the storekeeper kept the books for everybody, cash and credit. there wasn't even a bank. came in with bryan
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a teenage son. he was first 16 when the they first arrived and turn 17 that summer and that was tom bryan. tom went to work in jacksonville for a while and then went on to college, which was unusual for that day. tom had an older brother, read, and was in school -- reid, who was in school when they came here that first year. tom started the newspaper, the bank, all kinds of things in the area. one son was the thinker and the other was the doer. and they had a lot of fun doing a lot of things because there was no one here to stop them from doing things. they were just excited about doing stuff. putting in a telephone. no one had ever heard what a telephone was in this area. and particularly the indians. they didn't know anything about the telephone. it was interesting to hear about all of these things happening right around the turn-of-the-century. n's0 and, they built mr. bry ing'sand they built ed k
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systemd they put in this and things were growing very fast. >> within a few months, they bryan a trade and reid was the president of that. within another month, they had the town meeting where they all agreed that they would collect, andnd within another couple of months that had all happened. and by the middle of 1911, fort lauderdale was officially incorporated as a town. then order to have beautiful city that we have today, fort lauderdale, it is important to recognize the pioneers in this area. -- ate look at gentlemen philemon bryan and henry flagler, people want to read -- preserve that history.
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>> what i feel is, that was what created fort lauderdale. here that a precedent i believe still has impact, which is very responsible local government. also, it is a local government that is very focused on business . all of these people were businessmen and they were setting up a circumstance that would help their businesses. >> as a gateway for both international trade and cruise vacations, it is an economic engine for fort lauderdale. the history of the port opened up in 1928. >> port everglades is the largest container point -- container port in the state of florida and number two in the world.
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exporter largest crude for the state of florida. it is over 13,000 direct jobs. statewide injobs some way are tied into the activity at the port. we focus a lot on the impacts of those jobs on the local community. broward county is a large county, but it is continuing to be growing. ,ort everglades does two things provides jobs for the local citizens, but more importantly it provides the commodities they are looking for when they are -- when they go to their grocery store shelf. it goes back to the late 1800s, actually. the idea of having a port here in south florida to move some of the goods, mostly the fruits and that were being grown in south florida, to move them in other areas of the u.s. as well as the caribbean.
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1893, there was basically the fort lauderdale trading post, which is on the new river, which is just north of port everglades. that was the vein of commerce for moving goods in and out of what then was the everglades. led to the making of lake maple. by 1913, a cut was put into the boats to goow small in and out of the lake into the ocean. and that was really the prelude to the major project, which started with authorization by the state legislature in 1927 to proceed with a port here, what is now port everglades. and in february, 1928, president in thee pressed a button white house, and a detonation eventually occurred to open a cut and turn the channel into a
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challenge -- channel. back in the 1920's, there was a little over 400 acres that was purchased to be the start of the port. today, the port is 2200 acres. it has grown a little bit over the years, but not that much. the first cruise ship was actually here in 1931. since then, we have grown to the second-largest cruise port in the world. in a good goal, we will see up to 800 port calls by cruise ships. this year, we had 40 different ships them 10 different cruise lines that moved 4 million passengers through the port. the economic impact of just the cruise activity here in the port is over $2 billion and also over 6000 jobs that are directly tied to the persons who come in and out of broward county and fort lauderdale to go on those cruises. the cruise passengers, over half of them come in and arrive a day or more prior to their cruise.
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so they are staying in hotels and they are also staying in hotels after the cruise is over. that, once again, brings jobs and brings people into the local community. the state of florida actually has the most member of public seaports in the country. there are 15 public seaports. two of them are currently not active. and the largest seacoast line in the u.s. we have $26 billion of economic activity throughout the state resulting from the container activity here at the port. we also have over 6000 jobs directly tied to that container activity, as well as over 200,000 jobs throughout the state. the containers that are leaving here generally are foodstuffs, computers, computer printers, auto parts. we serve as the grocery store for the caribbean. the containers coming in,
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produce. bananas are a top commodity, melons. porte the top perishable in the state of florida. being a consuming market here in florida, we enjoy our fruit and vegetables. in 1930-31, that was the original establishment of petroleum terminals. there were originally three and now we have 13 different terminals, privately operated within the ports for amateur that provide the -- the port perimeter that provide the fuel not just for transportation vehicles, but also the jet jet fuel comes from as far away as korea, india, taiwan, and japan. , 75% consumedat in south florida, comes from the gulf coast u.s. refineries. thatt it in a number people might understand, 4.7 billion gallons of petroleum come into the port every year.
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come in and out of the port everyday. and that fuel fills up most all inthe vehicles that are used the 12 southern florida counties. the biggest challenge we have is balancing facilitation of commerce and security. the solen imagine, provider of petroleum for south florida, having so many cruise ships, so many cargo ships in port, we could be seen as a tempting target for someone to do us harm. so we spend a lot of time, a lot of money on security to ensure that the people that come through port everglades can feel safe and secure. cargo, one, we work vary closely with u.s. customs border protection as well as the united states coast guard to ensure our tenants are complying
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with all of the laws and regulations apply. all cargo that is imported goes through radiation porter monitors. to ensure that there is no radiation-based material coming in. other cargo is randomly inspected by customs to verify either what's been declared on the manifest is actually verify that there is nothing illegal being brought into the united states. we have a deepening and widening project that has been under study for over 18 years. it's making its way through the federal approval process. with hope to, within the next couple of years, be ready to actually start construction. we take the environmental footprint at the port fairy seriously. we have invested a lot of money toimprovements at the port
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reduce our environmental footprint. our biggest project coming up is to deepening of our channels accommodate the larger ships that are out there today. about $60 million has been identified just for mitigation for the impacts of that construction. on the ship'sc side, we will be able to accommodate fully loaded ships that are currently arriving here let loaded. our future channel depth will be feet. our current channel depth is 42 feet. we have ships arriving from europe today that can use a 50 feet of water today. the because we do not have it, they arrived lightly loaded. the commodities the past through port everglades are distributed throughout the united states. we have on the port a real facility. within four days, materials that
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come through port everglades can at -- at doorstep and the doorstep of 70% of the united states population. we had challenges. as we grow within the surrounding community and what we are trying to do is to strike that balance and meet the needs of the region and the growth of the region. by doing it in a way that makes sense economically and, most importantly, takes in the challenges and sensitivities of our sound environment that we live in. announcer: more with the history of naval air station fort lauderdale and its role in world war ii. mr. bloom: welcome to four -- lauderdale every station. trainingin operation
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base for the avenger torpedo bomber. most of the avenger cruise, which is a three-man crew, most of them trained here. d here.nt bush traine this base was built in april 1942. shortly after that, they received their first avenger torpedo bomber, which was just -- it just began his production for the military in 1942. by october of 1942, this base was fully built and operational. and commissioned until 1946. the property where they built smallse originally was a nine-hole golf course. president harding played golf here back in the 1920's. sour with ourhen
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asked to beigolf
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trained for torpedo bombers. it was risky, of course. that just went with the territory in those days. mr. bloom: president george h.w. bush, he came out here after he got his wings. he was transferred here. he was here in 1943, probably september may to 1943. he was in this room. they trained on the length trainer. back to this been
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building since then. but he has been back to the base. and the building he lived in, which was across the street and has been torn down since 1998. he lived there when he was running for -- he lived there. when he was running for election and 1992, he came here. he went around and said, yeah, this is the room i lived in. it was empty by then. so people who were in our organization, they took all the flooring out and the fixtures and the doors on this and that and they re-created that room museum.our we are now entering the george bush room. this is a re-created barracks room. the actual flooring in the closet and the desk in the water heater and the sink -- all these were in the room that president bush lived in when he was here on the base in 1943. this is a picture of the building were president bush lived when he was stationed here area as a junior bachelor's
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officers quarters. it became the amy welfare center. that was torn down in 1998. that piece of property is right across the street from us. this is a picture of president bush, a graduation picture. this was his flight instructor. after they finished three and a half months of training here, they went off to activists carrier landings in the great lakes and then they went off to fight in the war. has a lot of little mementos. here is a picture of barbara when she was 15. she is a beautiful woman. here is the president's parents. here is a flight suit and that they were when they trained here i. an aviator jacket with for callers -- with fur collars.
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they fund many battles in the pacific. it was on that carrier that the president was shot down when he was bombing cici jima. momentous: it was a day in my life i will never forget. september 2, 1944, early in the morning. we had flown over the day before. we were ready to go back the next day. we were out on a clear day. flew out at about 10,000 or 12,000 feet. got the signal from our squadron leader to push out. we were doing what they called glide bombing. not plane was designed to go down like a dive bomber. and drop a 400 or 500 pound bomb. that pushed the plane over and back. , you seefway down stuff breaking all around you. you could feel the plane go up like this. suddenly, it was engulfed in smoke and fire.
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i did manage to finish the bombing around. i flew out over the ocean. -- i turned so the people in the back of get out. i jumped and pulled the record to early and hit my head on the tail of the airplane and ended up with a great big strawberry -- you know, let when you slide, you scrape your skin off. i hung for just a moment on the tail of the plane. ripped some of the panels of this high cut parachute. i was dazed by that. i came to. and i was floating down into the pacific. i landed in there. i had forgotten to hook my seat back. one of the fighter pilots dove down there and showed where that was. swam over and got it. inflated it. climbs into the raft and proceeded to set the record for
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the fastest yellow raft in the history of the pacific, trying to go away with the wind. mr. bloom: he was rescued by a submarine. japanese on the island saw his plane go out in the water. there were sending boats out to capture him. the submarine service shooting on the japanese. the japanese knew at that point that the war was over. they sent one submarine for one downed aviator. they were done. it was 30 days before he was reunited with his squadron. it is a beautiful story. he would do not watch when they were on the surface, recharging the batteries. he said it was times like that, at night, alone, the beauty of the pacific, he would think about things that are unimportant to him, family -- it was just the way he thought -- his thoughts are just beautiful.
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he made a big impression on me. but he was rescued. at that point, nobody knew he would be president. we have signed things. here is a drawing by one of our members, paul bradley. the president signed that. and just to honor them, i am sure this is going to continue on. we have lost so many people that have been involved in this. now we have people helping.
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everybody that comes here and get involved loves it. they see the value of educating our kids. that's our mission. torpedo bombers disappeared to ring in 1945 -- during a 1945 training mission. the incident resulted in one of the largest air and sea searches in history. mr. bloom: the thing about devils triangle, bermuda trying, flight 19 was a regular navigation mission, training mission. they would take off from the base. flight 19 would go east towards the bahamas.
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an area and they would drop bombs on that and they would continue another 70 miles or so there would take a turn north and make a turn west towards fort lauderdale. they never came back and nobody knows what happened to them. december 5, 1945, flight 19 took off from our airport. that was a training mission. it was the 19th training mission of the day. four were five planes, trainees and instructor. there were 14 men total. bomb theiroing to little blue pointer down there. they did do that. , theyy continued east made the next turn, which was another 70 something miles to head north northwest. after that turn, the leader of trainees said to his
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-- i think we are lost, we made a long turn, we need to go back where we made that turn. along the coast, another pilot is flying. he heard the conversation. 74 and yous is ft guys are having some problems. and he said yes. we seem to be lost. my compasses are out. i'm sure i am over the florida keys. there was no way he could be over the florida keys. part of the reason he said that is, initially, he identified himself as being out of miami. this was the first time this crew had flown out of fort lauderdale. miami just closed and they moved up to fort lauderdale to continue the training. so visually he is looking down at these islands taking his over clean -- florida keys, which is probably a mistake. i don't know how he could get there in a short period of time. thinking of that, he headed north.
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headed do know -- due north, he would be heading out into more open water. there was a front coming through. the combination of all those things, these five planes became vary confused, lost. nobody could communicate with them because they pilot who had been flying along the coast, he said, i am fine south. let me come down and lead you guys back. the instructor said, no, no, we are fine. if he had done that, he would not have found them. he's going north into the open water. a ghost of the tower and says, look, do you hear what is happening out there? i know are these guys are. let me take the ready playing out and find them. they wouldn't let him take the ready plane. it started to get dark. they should have run out of gas around 7:00. they did hear some chatter between the planes but nobody really communicated with them after that.
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they sent rescue planes in search of them and that one -- and one of them disappeared. there were 13 men aboard. so 14 men on the flight of the avengers and 13 men on the rescue plane. so the next morning, they started a huge search, 200 something planes and ships all up and down the coast. they never found anything, location -- wreckage, flotation, nothing. something about the training, usually there were five trainer planes and one trainer plane. so there were six planes. the pilots and the instructor would go on the first floor of the tower. there is another picture on the wall here.
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they get the instructions for their training mission and then take off. one of the training planes had no oil pressure. they could not get the plane started. so that they didn't go. otherwise, there would have been six planes lost instead of five planes lost. this is the place where they'd drop to their bomb practice -- they drop to their bomb practice. in this cabinet, we have models in pictures. was a stick from inside of the cockpit of the avenger. that was found in the ocean when they brought up an avenger crash that they thought might have been part of flight 19, but it has not been proven to be true yet. but the fellow who gave that was, john mayer, he is still actively pursuing what happened to fight 19. he actually donated that to our museum. members of the crew, looking at our website, we don't have pictures or information.
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so we had three families send us pictures. parpart family sent this to us. it was given to the museum. there is also his logbook and pictures of him at fort lauderdale. we did not have information on him. we get a lot of information from people. in a way, this museum is almost the flight 19 museum. and we learn something every day. we don't consider ourselves experts. we look at everything. we listen at everything. and we put things together. but there was a fellow who was training out of miami and he went out on a training mission on the same day, same time. as he was coming back to miami, eight was cloudy and it was late in the day. he was over the sea of miami about 40 minutes faster than he thought he should have been. he could not figure out how that
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would happen. another letter was about the beginning of the day on december 5. a training group flew out and ended up landing in west palm beach. they were at the wrong airport. we have an article here somewhere -- a french publication -- they wrote the first article about the bermuda tranquil or the devil's triangle. it is still unsolved. there is a lot of good information that suggests going down in other ways, that they went down in the okefenokee swamp in georgia. john mayer has devoted 40 years into looking this. hired own expense, he murray land florida to bring up an avenger that they found in the bottom of the ocean about
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hundred miles off of daytona when the challenger blew up. they were scouring looking for pieces and they saw a plane. aey recognized it as probably navy avenger. there is suspicion that this is a flight 19 based on the numbers of the engine. so he brought this plane up. he continues to search. there were recently articles that have been written about a plane that was found just and lend off sebastian way back. and the fall, the call the navy and said there is a crash site here. the navy picked up the plane and took the bodies that were there. they never told anybody what that plane was, if it was part of flight 19 are not. they are actually pursuing that information are now. i just saw it in an article in a paper just a few weeks ago.
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announcer: coming up friday, one of our c-span cities to her, a visit to fort lauderdale, florida. her at 6:00ities to p.m. eastern. live here on c-span, the canadian prime minister's debate among the leaders of canada's four major parties starting at 8:00 eastern tonight, kicking off the longest campaign in modern canadian history. elections are october 19. we can watch that debate tonight on c-span in about an hour or you can tune india c-span radio -- tune in via c-span radio. announcer: kevin or talks about detroit's financial issues and overseeing the longest minutes ago bankruptcy in u.s. history. >> if detroit had taken that $1.5 billion when they stock
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market went down to 6700 and invested in an index fund, dow jones industrial index, for whatever, the stock market is now trading at 18,000, almost three times what it was. not only would they have tripled have paid they could the pensions in full and gotten back in the business of declaring what they call the 13th check. the practice of giving pensioners a 13th check at the end of the year in addition to the 12 they were due. it could have fixed itself if there had been some sort of matt -- some sort of sober management. if you have some strong leadership and some focused leadership, you can resolve these problems. but it takes a lot of effort. announcer: sunday night on c-span skew and eight. -- c-span's q&a. announcer: theodore roosevelt becomes president after the assassination of mckinley.
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the creation of a west wing to house the staff offices. by adding a social secretary to the payroll, she creates the office of the first lady and changes the name from executive mansion to the white house. edith roosevelt, this sunday night at 8:00 eastern on c-span's original series "first ladies, influence and image." from martha washington to .ichelle obama sundays at 8:00 p.m. eastern on american history tv on c-span3. announcer: senate majority leader mitch mcconnell held his last news conference before the august recess today. he talked about the iran agreement and president obama's comments. here is what the kentucky senator had to say.
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sen. mcconnell: what is not helpful is rhetoric like the president has been using this morning over the iran nuclear agreement to those in the streets in tehran yelling death to america. my view of this issue is, rather than this kind of crass political rhetoric, we ought to treat this issue with the dignity that it deserves. so what i said to the senate is we are going to handle this debate in the following way. we are going to try to reach an agreement to have a specified amount of time to talk about it. i am going to ask every senator to be at their desk actually listening to what others are saying. will get an opportunity to speak and actually be listened to by other senators. this is an extra nearly important issue for our country,
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not only now, but in the future. remember, the president will be gone in a year and a half and the rest of us will be living with the consequences of this extraordinary agreement, which certainly has transformed the middle east. it certainly has. are now entering into an agreement in which we are basically being asked to trust terrorismt funder of in the world today. and so it is appropriate to have some skepticism about a debate of this magnitude. and regardless of how the president talks about it, regardless of what his incendiary rhetoric is, we are going to deal with this in a respectful way.
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ms. seelye: good afternoon, everyone. it is our honor and pleasure to present roy gottman and joyce them for a discussion about iran deal and error reaction.
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i'm going to leave our formal introductions to dancer work. i wanted to give you another programming note. we are doing more on the iran deal next month on our panel entitled "after the iran deal, repercussions." there is a powerhouse lineup of mei scholars. they will examine expectations across the region versus changing security relations and applications for u.s. policy. so please go home and register at mei.edu. it is my pleasure to hand off the lead to dancer work. introduce today's speakers and moderate the discussion. over to you.
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mr. serwer: thank you for much, kate. i am going to do this vary quickly because we are pressed for time today. we also have some competition from the president of the united states. but we want to look a mall you here who have chosen so wisely to hear roy over the president. mr. gutman: deeply appreciated. mr. serwer: i don't do vary formal introductions. normally, you have your bios, but it does not say that roy and i went to undergraduate school together. a vary small undergraduate school where we did not know each other. we first met in [indiscernible] i suppose it is less than 25 years ago. he is a sterling correspondent it's the only way to describe him and i am looking forward to hearing his views? i have some questions for him afterwards. but first, we will hear from
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joyce karam. much shorterfor a time than i know roy. but we see each other on the circuit. i always enjoy talking with her because she has such a keen appreciation for the nuances of what is really going on. i did not know, however, and i know from her bio that she has an ma in international peace and conflict resolution. -- conflictcon man management. [laughter] share thehat we interest in masters degree in conflict management. roy. thanks, dan. thank you for mentioning the old-school guy. i can imagine many people who
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were in your exalted position. first do two things today. one is to describe tehran, which is just a journalist trip. we all try to do it every so often, when we can get a visa. it takes months. sometimes in my case, two years to get a visa. but i want to embed the discussion in some overview of what i acquired earlier this year of what is going on in the region. this less spring, when i was a witness to the chaos unfolding , the middle east, you had war raging in syria -- actually, multiple wars -- and in iraq as well. the islamic state controls big swaths in both countries.
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and a combination of powers seemed to be trying to dislodge them quickly. then egypt, a country in deep internal turmoil intervened militarily in libya. to get my bearings, i decided to do a tour of the region. speaking to experts in the government's of four countries at first, israel, jordan, egypt and turkey. and to ask the question what is driving events? how do they all interact? what is the quarter of seriousness? and where is this leading? as i was doing my tour, that is when a fourth war broke out and that is when syria intervened in yemen. in israel, i quickly became convinced -- this may surprise some -- i quickly became convinced that the major national security concern was not iran's nuclear program or
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the outcome of negotiations. dozene to at least a scholars and officials in the government, in all branches of the government. what they portrayed as the number one concern they had was iran's conventional threat. there was enormous concern about the buildup of hezbollah's militia and it's the planet into syria along israel's northern border. one intelligence briefer describe the buildup. he said something like 100,000 rockets and missiles have been brought in since 2006. and as an imminent danger to israel and to the region. i heard something similar in jordan. there was great disappointment in israel that the u.s. was leaving a security vacuum in syria and leaving iran to fill it.
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a number israel ease -- a number -- highli voices officials were deeply worried about the chaos. one of them summed up the situation. we are the sick man of the world, he said. they were baffled about the american -- they said it was a halfhearted response to assad. and the policy of containment. the kind of hands-off response, bombing from 30,000 feet of the islamic state. and not a listing jordan at a time that jordan was willing after the brutal killing of the young pilot by the islamic state. egypt, once the power that led the region, now is totally preoccupied with its internal appeal. but secondarily -- internal
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upheaval. but secondarily with islamic state in libya. an official told me every country in the region is upset by iran's growing role. and the u.s. detachment in the process. except for the iranians. everywhere i went, i also heard criticism of turkey. i collected criticism from every stop that turkey was failing to fight the adoption in syria, was in syria,- the adash was allowing people through its borders. and officials in every country i visited previously spoke of collusion between the turkish government and the extremists. but the turks had a ready response. we are not playing a game here. the islamic state is our enemy.
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and they cast of the controversy over their policy in terms of their lack of confidence in american leadership. and then against the islamic state. they saw american passivity in the face of iran's growing influence. feel a kind of free hand in the region," one official told me. "they know they don't have a determined counterpart. they know the u.s. will never act against them mr. gutman: the turks -- against them." the turks even use the word "appeasement." these are strong words from a vital ally at a time of calamity and upheaval. the four countries give me the big picture i was seeking. nlthough i was quite shake by what it all added up to. with violent -- the violent
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struggles already underway cannot be contained or wished away and they need to be brought to a halt less to they lead to something worse. and that would be a regional war along sectarian lines where the united states might not even be playing an active role to bring it to a halt. would like toa close his eyes and hope that syria will go away. , shortly after the conclusion of the nuclear agreement and just after the end of ramadan, i travel to tehran. i had my questions well-prepared from having done this to work. do the iranians recognize how they are viewed in the region, particularly their role in the world syria? how have they done the last four years where they were the outside player in both syria and iraq? that theyve any sense have a role in the rise of islamic state in both countries?
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following the nuclear accords, what is iran? what kind of country is it? is it a status quo country? or is a revolution still unfolding? is change possible in the region ? could iran be at the start of a transformation? if so, in which direction? so i give you my observations just as a list and we can discuss them later if you have questions. the first one is, there is a historic moment here that everybody knows about and it has to be seized. i'm not quite sure how it has to be done. iran has come in from the cold. after isolation, the nuclear agreement, assuming that it is fully and lamented will put iran back into the mainstream of
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life. iran has accumulated a lot of baggage in these three decades but so has the united states. the iranians pointed out what they had endured from the united states. for example, in the iran-iraq war in the 1980's, the u.s. assisted saddam hussein with intelligence as he was bombing iran. so giving them reports on how the could improve their aim. then there was the policy of dual continuous through the reagan presidency in the 1980's, followed by the bush administration in the early years of this century are in the 9/11 attacks, which brought in iran as part of the axis of evil. iran has been the target for a regime change. officialsholars and point this out.
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it is not quite an excuse but at least a now a bike for some of the things that iran did. many of the actions, which now earn them so much of the bm in the region, they say were the result of iran's feeling of insecurity and a reaction to american and general western actions and to assuage domestic security concerns. with the united states the enemy, the question was asked what can we do to hurt its interests? they can't use that excuse now. the period of the united states seeking and other powers supporting a regime overthrow is over. so there is a lot of skeletons in the closet on both sides. -- it's one of the region one of the reasons why we have to be sober and realize that change is not going to happen fast. the basic is question, like i asked everyone i saw -- i saw six or eight foreign affairs experts and
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deputy foreign minister. the question i was asking is is i ran status quo country or a revolutionary country? of course, the answer is not given in public by the supreme leader a few days after the vienna deal was announced. of course, he gives the definitive word for the moment. and he said iran's policy toward the arrogant government of you -- the american government will not change -- toward the arrogant government of america will not change. several other people i spoke to pointed out to me the clause in the constitution, article 155, which calls for iran to support struggles of the
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downtrodden against the oppressors in every corner of the globe." so i think article 155 is still alive. it is still current. one of the places where change is needed the most, it seems to me, if you like at the entire region is in lebanon. iran's support has turned hezbollah into a state within a state. it is carrying out international -- i would call them adventurers actually -- abroad in places like syria and become a major fighter underground there and possibly other places. someone mentioned to me that the supreme leader had not said a lot about hezbollah in the previous several months. is that a strong the wind? we will have to see -- is that a straw in the wind? we will have to see. i brought up of the point to everybody i spoke to about the
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build up of weapons by hezbollah. that really is a threat israel sees as a direct in major threat. so i was assured by several people -- if you can call this reassuring -- that the trigger on the weapons hezbollah has acquired is in iranian hands. and secondly, it won't be used -- it will be pulled against israel unless israel threatens iran or threatens lebanon. but that still leaves the basic question -- what is iran doing in lebanon in the first place? why is it invested so heavily there? some people say the reason it is so interested in the war in syria is because it needs a supply route from damascus into lebanon to supply hezbollah. retiredor diplomat long had a variable and response to the question. he said iran has no vital interest in lebanon.
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theas no vital interest in arab-israeli conflict. it has no vital interest in syria, for that matter. this is not the official line, as you can be sure. another place where iran seemingly has no vital interest but seems to be active is yemen. advisers nor has the supreme leader stated it does have a strong ideological interest in yemen. and it has a kinship with the booty did -- with the booty rebels -- the houti rebels. one element of the iranian is the houtis themselves have many personal ties to iran. another reason iran may be involved in their -- and it is not actively involved but
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politically involved -- is the zero sum game that iran is engaged in these of the saudi gazeengaged in these of vis saudi arabia. experts like to talk about how cool they are, how cool the country is towards yemen. that they are not really actively engage there. it is a gift of the fell into their lap. i don't think they are that skillful. for example, one scholar told me that the decision in may not to send a small cargo ship into yemen, the decision to turn it around, have it floated in
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djibouti instead was an example of iranian pragmatism and shows that it is a status quo state. of course, what preceded iran's decision to turn the vote to a strongarbor was warning from the united states, a public warning by the pentagon. don't do this. in fact, if you look back a month before that in april, the iranians had sent a small flotilla of cargo ships to yemen. only whend it around u.s. ships were the ploy to the area. i have to say -- this is something i learned and did not know before -- in some ways, iran really is a status quo country. and of all places, that applies to iraq. i wasvernment in tehran, told, is dead set against the
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breakup of iraq. they told the leadership in the government regional as much. iran does not want three states on its western border. one expert in the think tank said, for the kurds to think they are going to have a state and moves to take action as early as next year, it's a fantasy. here is what he said. no one wants a change of borders. no one wants a states collapse. a third observation, coming back to the nuclear agreement, i did not detect much gloating about the nuclear agreement. ,ather, almost universally statements that it was a balance agreement. it was a perfect from the iranian perspective. it wasn't even nesson it -- even necessary for the iranian perspective. but it's a win-win for all states. what i did get was a sense that the foreign-policy elite think,
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with regard to the regional issues, iran is in a vary good position. they see themselves as the strong as stay in the region and the most stable. that they are doing relatively well in syria and in iraq. but with the lights them the most -- this goes back to a theme i picked up in my earlier that the united states now except iran as a negotiating partner and as a serious player. they are delighted that the obama administration has shifted its emphasis away from the middle east and towards asia. and they highly endorse the administration's call for the region to solve its own problems. this actually translates into iran, the arabs, and turkey will have to hash things out themselves. the united states is not going to play the active role. this is how they see it. "they don't care much of the
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region," said one think tank expert. "and that policy is a good policy." as the u.s. lowers its profile, they hope it will try to convince all of its arab allies and turkey to collaborate with iran in finding regional solutions to the region's problems. the problem i see with this is that iran has its own narrative of events that doesn't square with the facts as i know them or that most other states as they summarize them. for example, go back to the fact, in the period of the american withdrawal from iraq, there was a vacuum. vacuums always come about when a major player leaves a country that is pretty unstable. and who filled it but iran. numbers.
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it was vary active in coaching the government doing the year i regularly.n 2011 but it was also on iran's watch that the iraqi army collapsed and the islamic state took over northern iraq. so i had the obvious question. do you feel any responsibility for what happened on your watch? and i couldn't find anybody who did. in fact, half of the experts i met with, including a deputy foreign minister, ascribe the rise of the islamic state to other players -- saudi arabia, qatar, the others. they also alleged the united states was providing assistance to the rise of the islamic state . highly --ns have a
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view of syria. on our information, the uprising began in the border city. from the early hours of the uprising, foreign forces entered dora. people's demands turned violent and the shar al-assad government took measures." evidence,r documentation, facts and nothing was forthcoming. they also refused to acknowledge the charlotte said -- bashar al-assad's role. as you know, in 2011, he and did his political prisons and allowed jihadists to join the war if they wanted to. i don't know how other countries will be able to negotiate a resolution of any of the issues when there is such a golf in the understanding of what happened,
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what preceded, what created the crisis in the first place. there was another statement i found equally amazing. i asked why is hezbollah fighting in syria? why have you sent them there? controlsehran really them, down to the command level. all ofwer came back lebanon backs the deployment of has blood in syria. they said has below was forced to undertake operations and coordination of the government within syrian borders. this is the deputy foreign minister. he said in the people of lebanon, be they muslims, sunni, shia or christians, are supporting hezbollah in this. clearly, there is a need of a reality check. nobody --oint is that i could find almost no one who took responsibility for the ,assive killing of civilians
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the u.n. has labeled crimes against humanity in syria. either they are not informed or they are in denial. it seems to me unlikely -- there are hundreds of revolutionary senior officers to syria guiding if not directing this areas armed forces and many of the volunteer forces that iran has flown in there. thousands. it is vary hard for me to believe that all of the revolutionary guards present and all the other people present our reporting nothing of what they reportinging -- are nothing of what they are observing. iran has drawn a redline on the issue. what's the redline? they are determined to event a safe area or a no-fly zone from coming about. humanitariant in terms would save a lot of lives.
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here's what the deputy minister told me. we do not support the establishment of a no-fly zone or protective zone in syria. other iranian scholars told me that iran was prepared to send volunteers to syria should turkey were anyone else try to set up a genuine safe area, not the type of flimsy area they are talking about right now. the deputy minister did not dispute the notion. this is why the obama administration is so reluctant to have a safe area. if i had to sum it up, i would say there is a big gap in the understanding of iranians -- by iranians at every level on how they played a role in this crisis. and iranians do not seem to understand the humanitarian crisis that their policy has brought to bring up -- has helped to bring about. areabjections to the safe indeed is that the u.s. refuses to provide a safe zone.
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but iran is a work in progress. it is not clear how things will come out. it's going to be a minimum of six months before any real change happens. but change may happen. need to coverbly original discussions in order to make that happen. in the meantime, there is no excuse for them not knowing the facts of what's happened in the region. a slightly stand on brighter note. i came up with a couple of interesting scholars in the wind. these were things that were not told to me but to visiting foreign officials. iran may be ready to open a human rights dialogue with the international community. it's probably high time. one of my colleagues is from "the washington post" and in jail for no good reason. the criminalrevise
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code. apparently, the reason that moat -- that's only people are being hanged is that more than 80% of .hem are drug traffickers these are scrolls in the wind but it is not annoyed. thank you. mr. serwer: thank you very much. [applause] turn to you, ie want to see if i can sell three or four seats down here on the left and maybe two seats over there on the right for those two are in the back of the room. you are more than welcome to occupy them. joyce. ms. karam: thank you. thanks, everyone, for putting this panel together. speaking about the arab response, i would just like to note, beginning, that there is
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no one arab response. there is no one error response a most on any issue today. also, you can bet the vary few in the arab world are sitting today and reading the 150 pages of the iran deal. on the government level, the arab responses have ranged. we saw uae, them on, and turkey welcome vary quickly the iranian deal. these three countries have ve ry good trade with iran and expect to boost after the deal. you saw qatar and egypt being more reluctant. saudi arabia -- qatar just said last weekend there is no better option. in that sense, we have to distinguish between who in the gcc and who in the arab world is
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talking about the deal. saudi officials, two weeks before the deal, told me that this is not area alignment. they don't see it as the u.s. going to iran and abandoning them. of they are vary concerned our grainy, iranian meddling, increasing in the region as an outcome of this deal. on the arab streets, talking to whateople or looking at people are tweeting, posting on facebook, saying on social media, the iranian problem in the middle east today is much bigger than centrifuges. it is also not just sectarian. it is not soon i -- it is not sunni versus shia. it is a political problem. weyou look at the polls,
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have a poll in iran in 2008. back then, 80% of arabs viewed iran positively. six years later, 12% in the arab world view were these shia and converted to sunnis? no. were they enchanted by the nuclear program and all of a sudden became disenchanted? no. did they like iranian kabob more before and they were exporting more iranian carpets and all of a sudden going to afghanistan or other places to eat kabob? also, no. the response i see from the people is very suspicious of the
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deal. they do not understand what it is the u.s. government and particularly the messaging to the arab government prior to the deal, they had seven months to prepare that the deal will be coming. when it came to the people, when it came to explaining the iranian negotiations to the arab world, we saw nothing. prior to the deal, there was one interview that president obama gave to al-arabia in 2009. this is the level of messaging that is happening in the arab street today. what arabs, what drives suspicion in the arab street is iranian behavior as roy put it eloquently. funding a force in the region. what is iran doing fighting syrians and zebadani?
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what is hezbollah doing in yemen? what is iran doing in saddam's town of tikrit? these are questions being raised by arab youth, by average people who do not understand the number of centrifuges or enrichment but are concerned that this deal would play out badly in iranian behavior. i brought with me some cartoons -- sorry, my ink color cartridges ran out. this is of an iranian or
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rouhani standing on bodies of syrians, yeminis, and holding up that says agreement. this is uncle sam and an iranian mullah running over the corpse of a middle east nuclear agreement. this is another one that gets to the issue of why -- what arabs are seeing. this is a nuclear agreement, the nuclear agreement generating money to terrorism. this is the perception today in the arab world. there's a big question over where is the hundred billion dollars that iran will get from sanctions relief.
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is it going to go to iranian students? nobody seems to have the answer to that. in may, an arab official, a high-level official who met the people at the white house was told that the iranian sanctions relief will go to universities and bridges. many arabs certainly hope that this is the case, but looking at the responses from the assad regime and others, there is concern that it might go more toward barrel bombs, more hezbollah fighters and mercenaries coming to the regime.
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there is a real urgency that the u.s. explains the deal better to the arab world, not just to the government. there is an urgency that the u.s. would implement the camp david commitment. more proactive at home, it is wished by many in combating iranian meddling, whether in syria or lebanon or yemen, without that i would just conclude by saying the nuclear deal, while it could be historic in reframing u.s. iranian relationships, it would be just another event, another landmark without transforming the
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regional confrontation that roy also pointed to. [applause] >> let me open with the question that will go soon to the audience as well. i am a little puzzled what the appropriate american reaction is to a problem that both of you have pointed at, which is the gulf. there is this huge difference between iranian and saudi, iranian and gulf perceptions of what is going on in the neighboring countries, of who started this, where security lies for one country or the other. so what is the right response?
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as joyce was suggesting, to push back on iran wherever the u.s. can, or should we be doing what some iranians are proposing, and also some other people, which is creating some kind of regional security framework in which the turks, the saudis, the iranians and others can work out their differences. what is the best game here? >> i think a regional security framework is sometime in the distant future, because i think the in mentees and the issues are so great right now -- the enmities cannot be resolved around the table right now. some issues have to be resolved on the ground.
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that is to say i think in syria, the administration hopes to have a conference to which they will invite iran and the great powers like has happened in history. they will sit around and decide, we divided up and so on. that doesn't take much account of the people who have staged the uprisings from the ground up and are still out there fighting four years later. i don't think that's going to bring stability unless someone is being forced to bring results. anybody who goes into syria with force has to have their head examined. some problems are not going to resolve quickly. in a case like syria, there needs to be a policy for syria. the president said the united states does not have a policy for syria. it leaves a vacuum, somebody
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else is going to fill it. it's one of the characteristics of the iranians, they have not managed the crisis where they are the outside player very well. in fact, things have gotten worse, and they don't acknowledge it. i would say the u.s. ought to develop a policy for each of these conflict zones and then try to carry it out. and another thing i also mentioned at the end was, it's important to have at least the u.s. official version of what really happened, because you are not going to be able to discuss things with iran whatsoever if you're operating off two completely different sheets of music where they have almost invented a version of history that does not accord with what anybody else thinks actually happened.
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daniel: pushback, dialogue, or both? joyce: i think they have to find a balance, they did not get many commitments out of camp david. maritime security, financing, oil shipments. everything we see in washington, we go to a conference, they take a big photo op and then nothing gets implemented. what would resonate would result in syria would be getting everyone to the table. at the moment, sadly, i don't think we are at that stage. the assad regime feels emboldened after the deal. others in the opposition still think they can win.
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as long as we have that, it's hard to see anything happening anytime soon. as roy wrote a few weeks ago, you now have 53 rebels in syria. roy: 54, a couple of days ago. joyce: i think there are now 12. so the u.s. is more or less four years behind syria in getting a strategy in place which would greatly help in shaping this debate. daniel: i will turn to the audience and start right here. have we got a microphone? >> my name is tyler thompson. i'm so happy there's a panel here with three people i deeply admire and whose opinions i deeply trust. roy, what effect does the syrian
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war have on the domestic iranian politics, and does the deal and the sanctions relief related with the deal have an effect on the domestic impact of the syrian war? you mentioned if iran won't even admit to the existence of atrocities being committed in syria, what hope is there that the iranians and future syrian negotiations would have a productive role in ending those atrocities in which they are complicit? thank you. roy: on the second question, i think there is a real problem here, that the iranians don't grasp what has happened in syria. there is state media there and access to international media.
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they are fed a diet of success in syria, things going well, the policy being fulfilled and supported. i personally see syria as a catastrophe, not just in the humanitarian sense, but i don't see where it's going, i don't see how it's going to end in any peaceful way anytime soon. it always happens with the war of this type where there is a huge popular rebellion. tensions rising out of it that are unpredictable. they don't see the complexity of it. they don't see what their role has really been. it's a huge problem when you try to sit down if you want to sit around the table and you have a completely different understanding of the events that occurred. as for the view on the street, i
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found it surprisingly supportive of the official policy. what is the view on the street? a journalist walks up to me at the university and tells me why i should be ignoring anything that is going on right in front of me. death to america, death to israel, and so on. that it is not what the iranians really think. i have an immediate report with this reporter. because we are always looking for the other side of the story. i was talking to him about syria , and i said, are you aware of what has happened in syria on the ground? are you aware of the role of your government and the horrific results on the ground? and he said i think syria is part of the state policy and is a justified part of the state policy. it's part of our interest, we have to stay there.
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here is somebody who is an informed journalist. they need a reality check, and nobody is giving it to them. i don't know how to going to come about, but somebody has to do that. joyce: if you look at the numbers, it's becoming a more costly budget item for iran. estimates are $35 billion have been spent by iranians on keeping the regime afloat in damascus. hezbollah has lost more fighters in syria that it has lost in israel in the last war. i don't know at which point will the iranian leadership see that this trend is not sustainable, that assad cannot win in this.
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we are seeing some statements from iranian officials, that we know assad is not a president for life, but does that mean there will be a reverse in the policy? i'm not so sure. hezbollah is more and more involved in syria today. as you remember in 2013 when hezbollah entered the war, they went to liberate a small town. now you move to other towns and it is not ending anytime soon. until that change in the mindset in iran happens that assad is too costly and unsustainable and that they can maintain -- the goal is to maintain its route to
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lebanon. if those are secure, maybe we will see a change. >> thank you very much. i want to ask something more about the neighbors. mr. gutman, you alluded a bit too death to israel cries, and of course we know that netanyahu is extremely angry at the policy, at the deal. i would like to hear what the arab press has been saying about this, given the various differences you alluded to. i would like to know about the
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response to kazakstan since they are nearby. roy: maybe you could just sum it up for us. >> i don't know what it is. joyce: thanks for your question. the arab response -- again, it was not as monolithic as the israeli response. the scc has taken a much different position than israel. the negotiations have been ongoing since bill burns started it in 2006 or 2007. in theory, there is support for a deal that stops iran from getting a nuclear weapon. that definitely puts them in a different light than netanyahu.
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i think on regional behavior and countering iran's meddling, you do see similarities today between israel and the arab world. roy: i will come back to the point i made earlier in my remarks. the israeli position, the official rhetorical position is rather hard to understand, because the professional position, and this goes for people in government and out of government, we really care about the regional issues. the government does not mention much about hezbollah's buildup. something has to be done to control this and diffuse it.
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if the deal does not go through -- the deal will go through, the only question is does the united states opt out? i'm not sure there's any advantage to that. it seems hard to grasp, at least on the facts. and the israeli foreign policy elite, they understand the different threat. it's not the nuclear threat. daniel: let me take two questions here and then we will have to wrap up because we are running out of time. >> thank you very much. [indiscernible]
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[indiscernible] roy: it seems to me there are two types, top-down wars, wars of state interest, and bottom-up wars based on fundamental hatreds. i'm struck by ms. karam's citation of public opinion polls that shows a very rapid movement toward animosity and hostility, the cartoons.
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are we seeing a growth of hatred, a desire for revenge? in that case, you mention the security architecture. i don't see how security architecture could work if we are dealing with such fundamental hatreds that are developing from the bottom. daniel: let me turn back to joyce on fundamental hatred and the alternatives. joyce: if you see the trajectory of the coverage in the arab media, it is becoming much more alarming. there is a much bigger anti-iranian sentiment. i would trace that maybe to 2005.
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back then we started to see a change in how arabs view iran. but the climax of it all was syria, the iraq war for sure, but this is totally a syria effect. i don't have numbers, i don't have data, how is this helping isis, or how is it helping other extremist groups recruit? a big slogan for them is anti-shia, anti-hezbollah, anti-iran. this is where we are now. it does give more urgency to tackle these problems rather
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than let them fester. i'm not sure even how much you can keep syria together at a certain point. how are these people going to live together again, given the degree of animosity and hatred? roy: on the question of alternatives to the nuclear deal? i can't think of one. the regime has told the iranian public that it doesn't want a nuclear weapon, it never did. we're just doing this to appease the international community and restore our standing in the world, and it's a small price to pay after all this isolation. there is an issue in fact which
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i came upon that might come up in the parliament, assuming the government doesn't manage it out of existence. that is the additional protocol which iran is supposed to ratify through the parliament as part of the nuclear deal. it is in the deal itself. there's a lot of objections certainly from the conservative side to this additional protocol because it does require all sorts of inspections that they think are unnecessary. inspections is one of the debate issues. they don't want sudden, unannounced inspections. they say they are not necessary. they say if you have television cameras looking 24/7 at a location, do you really need to send in inspectors on a no announcement basis? isn't this infringing on the
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sovereignty of iran and the dignity of iran? i don't think it is the end of the deal by any means. the government is going to do its best to prevent that from happening. joyce: a very good question on the hard-liners in iran, where they stand. i'm not so sure they are that happy with the deal, to be honest. first of all, they are not happy about having all these inspectors come to iran and inspect military sites and nuclear facilities. iran has been insulated since 1979 from this kind of western officials going they are -- going there. they have made a lot of money evading sanctions and getting money from the black market to fund activities. so all of a sudden now you're
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seeing a new trend in iran, and perhaps questions, where will this money go? they have to answer the iranian public, and that does put the hard-liners in a tougher spot. roy: the hard-liners really are the losers in this whole deal. they are being disempowered. all the people who have been engaged in smuggling, and that's probably a pretty big lobby, are going to be hurting because they will have no real role. we should not underestimate the impact of the hard-liners being dealt a bad hand here. but we should not overestimate the ability of the others to change things in the near term.
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it's a very dynamic discussion there in iran. it's not just over the nuclear deal. there are issues that everybody understands have to be worked out. is the iranian government going to manage overseas operations of the revolutionary guard? or is it going to be a revolutionary guard that reports to the supreme leader? we know where the hard-liners come down on that discussion. it's a crucial thing and i would not an immediate answer, but you can be sure it will be in the debate. daniel: there's a silver lining here of sorts. think about where we would be if iran were headed for a nuclear weapon. think of where we would be of
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two or three months from now, iran could be expected to have enough highly enriched uranium for least one nuclear weapon. that would be a much worse scenario for the region, for everybody than the current situation. i want to thank joyce and roy, and i hope you will join me in doing so. [applause] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2015] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] life to the debate. harper andter
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thomas mulcair, justin trudeau, elizabeth may. for octoberis set 19, making this the longest campaign in modern canadian history. mr. wells: the longest election campaign in modern canadian history has begun. good evening, i'm paul wells, the political editor of maclean's magazine. i'm excited about this as you are. we have the leaders of four national political parties together in one room. we don't know whether that will happen again before you vote. i don't think they know. while they are here, let's make them work. in tleaders are just injure rudeau, elizabeth

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