tv Key Capitol Hill Hearings CSPAN August 29, 2016 6:00pm-8:01pm EDT
watches that tell your doctor that you are sick before you know you are sick. the first innovation he talked about was revolutionizing the meat industry. metalked about plant-based at. it takes nine calories in a chicken to get one calorie out. calories.sting eight he talked about climate change polluting isleast and, going from the current $500 million of two
meat. gates said that he was tasting the future of food. meatball created by memphis meets. -- meat. the first clean meat company in the united states. a lot of it call it -- a lot of them call it lab-grown. it is not really grown. everything starts in a food lab. commercialized, this is what it would look like. this is your neighborhood meat brewery. there will be big and small meat breweries.
this is what it will look like. it will be produced in a factory, like other foods. i am convinced that consumers will be given two options and one of them is not requiring animal slaughter. meat despite how it is produced, not because of how it is produced. when you give less greenhouse bacteria,s not have no animal slaughter, and they are passing laws to prevent people from finding out how this is made. on the other side, you have meat produced with transparency, cleaner, safer, less greenhouse gases. i am. convinced people make this
switch. this is why we call this "clean meat." whether it is organic or factory-farmed, the bacteria and the antibiotic residue is the same, it is a lot. thousands of people die every year from contaminated meat. more than 100000 and up in the hospital. tens of millions get sick. this is why we call it "cl; ean." it is clean. it is the same thing as the "u nclean" meat, but safer and better. we are fostering innovation, doing outreach to biologists, entrepreneurs, plant biologists,
and going to people who do the most forward-thinking work. tissuehey are doing engineering or plant biology. or, maybe they are doing drought resistance. maybe they are trying to come up with the next best t-shirt. educate them on how good they can do for themselves by moving into the food space and we do start up support with a couple of senior scientists and a policy director. advisers that of help startups in this space. we have corporate engagement without reach to chain grocery stores and food service operators to make the plant-based options promoted more effectively and we try to educate institutions, involving
orreaches to foundations other entities that report to care about global health or climate change. sustainability, that question of how we feed 9 billion people by 2050. conceptse them on the and take the ethical question off the table by making the sustainable choice the default choice. you make the "clean meat" alternative equally tasty and convenient. you can find out more about the good food institute online. i encourage people to check out our resources. read what each of these sections are. there are academic
opportunities. job opportunities, startup opportunities, in any event, lots of stuff. sign up for the e-mail updates and become our friends on facebook and twitter. the last thing that i want to do is flashback to the turn of the last century. city, 1900, in new york there were 175,000 horses producing 50,000 tons of many newer every month -- of manure every month. urban8, the first planning conference was about the manure. ities were drowning in course
-- horse manure. there was congestion and traffic accidents. the question was, what are we going to do about the horse manure? henry ford introduces the model t. by 1912, there were more cars than horses. i am convinced that, through food technology and markets we take the ethical question off of the table for consumers and make the default choice the animal-friendly choice. we will get to a time in the raising animals for food, which is incredibly inefficient, causes global
warming, and requires the killing of animals who are no different from our dogs and cats, when the idea of raising asmals for food is as absurd all of us hopping on horses to go back to where we are from. obviously, we would not do that. we are being as smart as we can to make that day in reality. thank you. >> give it up for all three of them. thank you very much. i believe that concludes this first part and thank you.
>> good evening. director ofcutive the equal justice alliance and i am a corporate technology attorney in media. it is an honor to introduce kevin jonas. rightsat the animal conference in 2005 and i met him when i was defending him in a suit against huntington life sciences in connection with a campaign. i met him in prison. he had been convicted under the animal enterprise protection act
in 2006. how many of you are familiar with this? applause --f [scattering of applause] >> about half of you. a number of you are not. you will become familiar with it. with everything he was dealing when when he asked me, he was in prison, he asked if anyone was showing me around. he was thinking about my comfort, not his own. that broke my heart. as the executive director of the equal justice alliance, our mission is to repeal this act.
6 who were convicted for just that, organizing protests and using the internet. it was a case of six individuals and a website. they put together one of the boycotts on the internet against one of the illing companies in the world. it to the brink of bankruptcy, even to the point where they were able to prevent the relisting of the parent company on the new york stock exchange. successful.ry
they were all convicted of animal enterprise terrorism and served 1-6 years in federal prison, with kevin receiving the highest sentence. they were imprisoned under a terrorism designation. as ryan schapiro said, the fbi is using this as a laboratory to target americans in the law is wrought the -- dly-worded.broa it applies generally to kevin and all others in the case who were convicted. i was three weeks away from taking the law school admission test in 2004 when i was arrested and charged with domestic terrorism. i had not hurt anyone or
vandalized a property. the indictment did not allege done a crime, other than have a website that reported activity of a notorious animal testing laboratory. you see that they are imprisoning law students now. that is not the only case. i had a law student was also indicted. kevin jonas, despite all of this, has come out and re-created himself and his life. it has been 11 years since he was last here and we are happy to have him back.
hall of fame. please welcome kevin jonas. [applause] kevin: thank you. it is good to be back. 15 years ago, my friend took a chance on me, as a young aggressiveading an anti-vivisection campaign. he gave me the responsibility of speaking about the people who participate in civil this obedience. i spoke for 10 minutes and try to give full throated support to those who have the kurds to do
dot which -- the courage to that which i do not. about angert -- not or destruction, but the sensitivity, the courage, and to beart that it takes the kind of person who can get inside of a laboratory facility and pick up a dog covered in her cage and from a steel spirit her away through a gap damp field, feeling her soft breath on your neck. that very description has been cited against me in every one of the 27 lawsuits and our appeal.
one of the proudest moments of my life. i stood up in front of friends and colleagues with honesty and conviction and spoke truth to ,ower, without being scared being concerned about the consequences. said, there have been consequences. let's address the elephant in the room. the campaign got us in trouble, got is arrested, got me
deported, got us federal charges, and, i had a six year prison sentence and i did four years. it was boring. that is not what i came here to speak to you about tonight. i never speak about it. i am not ashamed. not at all. i'm not traumatized by it. i am not made of porcelain and i will not crack, revisiting that experience. it is a distraction and it is meant to scare all of you. i our day lost five years of my life to a corrupt and political prosecution and i'm not going to waste more time on it, trying to impress or enthrall you with stories of prison intrigue and survival. they are boring. , that is mine and
mine alone. i survived it with the help of aaron, friends, with , with fights in prison, and i do not offer it for public consumption. my life is not a reality show. why should i talk about the dark, depressing, the dangerous? it pales in comparison to the real reasons, the issues, the real horrors that bring everyone of us here tonight. pretendgoing to try to or imagine that, simply because we sat in a prison cubicle for a few years, that we know what it is like to be a victim in a
factory farm, a laboratory, a cement tank in sea world, i don't. none of us do. ist the animals endure beyond my worst nightmares. torture, despair, stress, heartbreak. you have had enough of this today. ago, when i got out of prison and i was on probation , i started a journey of recovery. i did that with my beagle. he had just been rescued from an animal testing laboratory. fourcally, he had spent years and seven months in a laboratory prison. confused,cared,
frightened, and fragile survivor of real abuse. his body had the marks. he had scars where incisions were made. notches in his ears that were missing. a psyche that learned that the outstretched human hand means pain, violence. himugh junior, i watched cautiously jump onto our bed, his bed, for the first time. he decided that he was going to try again with us. he snuggled up to me and he has, every night since. through junior, i learned what survival looks like and what it means to be resilient. i have been licking my own
imagined wounds to my ego. i was having a pity party. -- junior'sival survival gave me perspective and i found inspiration. if he was not going to be defeated by animal testing, why would i? with junior at my side, i found my voice and my purpose and i joined the team that saved his life, the beagle freedom project. we are a small charity with big ambitions. there are literally 10 of us. our mission is to rescue any and all animals and to tell stories theurvivals to remind
public that these are no different than the animals we share our homes with. they are just like our own. with the four years i have worked with this organization, we have saved 650 lives from laboratories. they are mostly beagles. choice are the breed of because they make great companions, they are docile, people-pleasing, forgiving. cats, rabbits, guinea pigs, goats, ponies, goldfish. and survivor is a reminder w is a motivation to go
cruelty-free and begin. vegan. in the power of than my words. preaching0 animals and testifying about their personal and real experience with animal testing. everybody wants to know their stories. everybody wants to see the tattoos. the rescue straw media power -- the rescues draw media power and attention. this last year, our charity was award for then first time. records requests were
crowd sourced. we had 1000 people requesting 1000 individual animals stuck in laboratories. the response was phenomenal. and a media saturation plethora of lawsuits poured in from across the country. this last week, we sued the university of illinois. if they killing beagles are afraid if you try to put them into a restraint slang. -- sling. this is building a new movement with new activists that we are taking to the state capital in
every part of the country. the beaglebaby, freedom bill. this is a piece of legislation that, at the very least mandates that, all healthy dogs and cats, if they survive, must be offered up to public adoption through a rescue organization. of course, every laboratory and animal testing industry group has come out against this, attacking the messenger. and i have arget record. they would rather kill the dogs. line in this talking front of the senate. they are losing. in bill has been passed
california, nevada, minnesota, connecticut, and i am flying to new york to send this to the governor's desk for his signature. we are literally creating new rights for these animals, new and newat life, opportunities and mediums to engage the public and the legislators about issues they can get on board with. charity, we keep ourselves dizzy. -- busy. we have a smart phone app. you can scan a barcode of any you if and it will tell that product is tested on animals. you can socially share that.
it is called "cruelty cutter." it is available on itunes and android. we are 10 people. save, and budgeted. 200 $50,000g away to researchers who are $250,000 to- researchers who are pioneering. what i am really proud of is all of this happening while i was still on probation. i just got off last year. i am 100% free.
watch what the next few years bring. junior, i am not going to be defeated or made permanently afraid because of my past. 15 years ago, when i stood before you and i gave you this speech, free of fear, without regard of consequences, i do this again. i know what the consequences are. i survived them. so can you. nobody should be afraid. please, please, trust me. this is not about bragging. most people who know me know that i am not special. i do not possess a reserve of cunning or bravery. i'm not the smartest person in this room. i am not the strongest. i'm not the most attractive. , i have anguish.
i watched my mother cry because i am in trouble and i'm going to jail because i am till thing at the windmills of social change. i'm not special. i'm not. stare down the barrel of a federal prison sentence and stand up here and speak loud and proud, i know that everyone in this room can. my message is this, you cannot let the fear of unknown consequences become a prison of inactivity. i say this and it is my mo. an easy.ot called
it is called a struggle. we are advocating for the greatest change" role, -- in cu political, and social history. there are going to be consequences. it is no different for us then for those who demanded voting rights, equal pay, the right to not in slavery, the right to simply exist. the activists went to jail, they got sued, they got called names. some of them were beaten. some of them were killed. we are naive to believe that this can be done without any cost or sacrifice. is there less urgency for us? is this why we think we can have
our cake and eat it? wego to vegan meet ups and like things on facebook to assuage our guilt. not good enough. not good enough. i'm not trying to sensationalize or fetishize it, jail is not fun. don't go. getting sued socks. ucks. if you are audacious, brave, you can survive trouble. it is trivial to what we are advocating against. anyears ago, when peta sends undercover investigator into huntington, during the
investigation, a worker was designing an experiment to cut off the legs of 37 beagles. and i were trying to shut down the laboratory, they had moved on to using cats in grisly experiments. edition ofthe third the handbook on toxicology identified the acceptable ways of killing laboratory victims. monoxide, carbon dioxide, cervical dislocation, leading them to death -- bleeding them .o death, decapitation
bearing silent witness is no longer an option. not happene abuse or just because you write us a check. you cannot pay others to do the activism for us. thank you. voice.e here has a you have a heart. you have hands. sideave the truth on the -- on your side and you need to set the bar high. do not settle. do not be satisfied. there is not a humane vivisection. no cement tank will ever be good enough for any whale.
by being here tonight, by being vegan, by embracing the animal-rights ethic, we are in a state of resistance and the stakes are high. billions of lives on the line and it is our humanity and our existence on this planet drastic,equires audacious, innovative, and compassionate ideas from everybody here. you, and iou, i urge know we are running over on time, but i have been gone 10 years. i will close out. tonight andve here you go back to wherever you came from, remember these speeches, and, moreearned,
importantly, remember how you felt. feel a close to your heart. -- feel that close to your heart. that righteous indignation, that anger, you are going to need it. activism does not play out like it does in the movie. , it will not lines be in slow motion, there will not be a musical score. when you are going to a damp field, when you are wiring up a camera through a lapel, when you are up all night writing a legal ,rief to shut down a facility or on a picket line with a bullhorn, remember these feelings. in the moment, it is different. it is going to be you alone.
host: thank you very kevin. now, to introduce the final speaker of the night, bruce. >> so, our next speaker recently received the second peter -- pete up price for strategies -- peter singer prize. the first to receive it was peter himself. [laughter] the second one was ingrid, [ingrid was absolutely the right person to receive this award because her focus has always been, for the past 40 years, constantly and resolutely been on reducing the suffering of animals and in that cause she has been truly a great strategist.
peter continued, i first met ingrid when i spent some time in washington, d.c., in 1979 at eight vegetarian thanksgiving dinner. people for the ethical treatment of animals did not yet exist but she and alex told me they had plans to start and organization that would be based on ideas similar to those i presented in my book "animal liberation." little did i imagine this plan would be the start of the largest animal rights organization in the world. that peta would make thousands of people aware that animals were not ours to wear, use for entertainment, or abuse in any other ways and it would transform the animal protection
in the united states and other areas as well as to ingrid's attention has always been on the urgency of stopping the vast amount of suffering we inflict on animals. these welcome me in accepting -- welcoming the best friend in a mills and their friends could conceive of in this world. ingrid. [applause]. >> thank you. he is so long-winded. thank you very much, bruce. and thank you all for being here. it is absolutely wonderful to see such a pact room. tremendous. i have to make it snappy so let's get on with it. victory first. since one year ago, our movement has won many fantastic victories
and the only reason we have is because people care and they work on them. ringling brothers took all of the elephants off the road. see world stop breeding all of the orc us. -- sea world stopped breeding all of the orcas. the head grow world for market collapsed. banning possession of exotics, banning hideous chemical tests on animals. michael, the owner of the tiger and the lives of pi, caught whipping a tiger up to 19 times is now facing charges of animal cruelty in canada. and his new is closing down. -- his zoo is closing down. in other news, the -- that his been there for 190 years just
closed and this weekend, the mad mayor of -- came out and said he is opposed to the running of the bulls. [applause] after showing retail footage of sheep being punched in the face, suppliers of stores like balenciaga and stores like patagonia suspended all purchases of wool. we convinced poultry farms, great and barrel, to promote synthetic down saving millions of ducks and geese and. and world market and pier 1 imports no longer sell any down.
when we took on watchable footage of -- being clubbed to death for leather and proofed it was being sold in this country, some sold -- is some stores agreed not to buy any leather at all anymore. [applause] we persuaded 130 international banks and corporations to stop using curl glue traps, saving millions of rats and mice, who in my opinion are the dearest little angels in the world.
tesla now offers its models x and s with a synthetic leather and ferrari robbery now offers synthetic leather as in upgrade for its new convertible. we got uber to drop its requirement for leather. when my car imploded, which was not end -- and active terrorism, i bought an all-vegan smart car. there does. it cost about 13,000-400 dollars, but it is a mercedes. serves anyone tells you the president of peta drives a mercy 80's, they are telling you the truth. it that reminds people that animals count and changes the entire marketplace. are we happy about these victories? [cheers and applause]
then consider this chilling thought, if we only spend our time into our money fighting factory farming to the exclusion of all else, none of the victories i have mentioned would have happened. yet doth this conference and elsewhere you will hear people asking us to only concentrate on factory farming work. great apes would not be coming out of the laborde tories now if
jane goodall had not spent her years out in the forest convincing us that great apes were just other human beings with another name, if she had spent her entire career handing out vegan leaflets. she taught us chimpanzees share more dna with us than anthony board and. -- anthony board game -- anthony bourdain. i am all for handing out vegetarian leaflets. i do it myself. i encourage other people to do so. but there also is other important work to be done. i want to talk about wonderful things that define who animals are. but i have to talk instead about this in city us "only work on factory farming" issues. we are a vegan food movement. of course we are. but we are much more than that. we are in animal rights movement. [cheers and applause]
we are not going to wait until everybody eats veggie burgers before we help other animals. that is like in the 1960's when white people were told they should not go down to the south to register black voters until all white people were taking care of or when we are told, you should not work on animal rights until all human rights are resolved. that is rubbish. the animal rights movement goal is to get people to recognize that just as animals are not hamburgers, they are also not handbags. they are not test tubes with whiskers. they are not cheap burglar alarms. they are not props for photo ops. they are not tests. they are individuals and we must attacked all of them. even the animals we are not that familiar with.
like that. [laughter] if we had only worked on factory farming, pigs would still be slammed into walls and car crash tests. there would be no fake snake. note leather. no vegan flees. no alternatives to killing a mouse to see if you are pregnant. why? because our movement major those things changed. because we are against speciesism combo we know that means we are against cruelty to cows, pigs, chickens. yes, but we are also against cruelty to dogs and cats and rabbits and monkeys and rats and the rest of them. [cheers and applause] now, the reason i am talking
about that is that some people who work on factory farm issues, and they are good people in and i love many of them and they do great work, they are using these things called evaluation groups to promote this idea that it is only effective to do factory farming work and to me that is like republican redistricting. it is a lot of hooey. they say the suffering is a question of math. i love map and their questions do not add up. they say since a chicken lives for about 42 years, instead of saving one dog who is suffering for one year, you should save nine chickens and forget the dog. well imagine that dodd because i work with dogs all the time. i can't. imagine him chained in a patch of his on waste for one year. these are real dogs we have helped, shivering through the night. [dog barking] yes, you're with me.
isa bitten rob by the flies drawn to his waist. mange does not allow him to sleep. these are real dogs. like this. look at his collar. eating into his neck. is it the same as nine chickens on a factory farm for 42 days? animals are not numbers. there individuals. vivisection reduces animals to numbers. we do not. our movement is against all of the ugly things done to any animal. animal rights people do not celebrate humane dog breeders, organic will, or sustainable fishing. we do not want to sustain
cruelty, we want to end it it. [applause] i love that cartoon. one issue does not a movement make. our strong, diverse movement reaches into all of the dark corners of abuse and full sleeve victims out. we are changing the world not only so children can eat veggie hot dogs but said they do not grow up thinking their parents take them to the circus so it
must be acceptable to dominate animals. that is why we have closed down five roadside zoos and circuses in the last year and with your help we will close them all down the eventually. some say the only thing that counts is saving the most lives. but all social justice movements have a far larger goal. we want to stop people from denying basic rights to others simply because they are others. and take gateway issues. someone said says so the lion was shot by a dental tourist and think they only care about that, they visit our website and bingo, they learn about all of the other issues and they would have never sought them out because they were not interested. it happens all the time. it is true. someone heard about an abandoned dog, but in plastic, left on the road. pete offered a reward. there was a demonstration outside the courthouse. people who cared only about the dogs came to the demo, got the
whole a animal rights story. and here is tyrone matthew. i am hugely a big fan. a little bit of what he says about dogs in hot cars. [begin video] >> bless his heart. >> he is apologizing that he had to get out of the car. people who like dogs visited the website to see that video. while they were there, they saw every other video we have on the website. things they had never set out to sea. the man who did this commercial because he loves dogs, went vegan after he did it. [cheers and applause] he opened a pop-up in asia.
a shop where people saw this. [begin video] >> this video went viral. over 15 million people watched an online. if you only worked on factory farming, and tough luck for all of the reptiles who were killed by having something shoved down their throat and their whole bodies filled with water. this is silly. you know the thing, if you can save only one which would you save, the man or the dog? the cartoon is really wonderful. he said, well it depends. is the man osama bin laden and
the dog lassie? nothing is that cut and dried. should we stop working to save nosy, whose gig at the fair we just got canceled this fair? should we let lolita rocked in her cement tank? it has enormous impact for them, but a lot of impact for animals going into the future and is a milestone for all animals. true story, a system in new york. a monkey named clayton. this is not clayton, a different monkey but the same thing. the assistant went away. a years later he returned to the lab and there was clayton and it suddenly struck this man that in all the years he had been gone, clayton had sat in the same spot. he wrote this, clayton had a pink face. dark eyes. sandy for an date to inch titanium rod screwed into the top of his skull.
clayton was born in a breeding center. he grew up in a metal box and spent his adolescence with a hole in his head and a coil through his eye. he wrote, in 10 or 15 years of life, clayton suffered multiple surgeries and infections into endless hours of restraint in a plastic chair. he said, i moved across the country, became a journalist, married, went on vacations. clayton, nothing ever changed. every day or two he was carted off to a room and held in place by a screw the protruded from his skull. let's not ignore people like clayton, because they are people and they need is to liberate them. [applause] statistics are deceptive. somebody said, people may go to the zoo once again or to the zoo three or four times in their
lives, but every time someone chooses to eat vegan, they are saving 200 lives a gear. it is not about how many times people go to the circus or zoo. it is about the animals who are stuck in the circus or zoo year after year, going insane, turning in circles, trying to cope. whether we go or not. our job is only to get them out. the same evaluators say, $1000 saves 2.5 dogs or cats plus saving 11,000 food animals. so nor the dogs and cats. these cows disagree. [laughter] i will bring you it is more effective to give money to spain and neutering, rather than to
placement. for example, this dog needs a home right now. let me know. one, a real home in your house. that does not take me anytime tuesday, and i am still begin. the figures don't add up. in one tiny area, we have sterilized 130,000 dogs and cats. [applause] just imagine if only half of those animals had a litter, and it was a small litter, and only half of the animals in that letter had no more offspring, we have saved being3 million lives from born with nowhere to go, and that is a real statistic. [applause] theoretically, we can
save some 200 animals a year if we do not eat them, but really, it is not as if the chicken industry calls up pork and beef hey, cut production by 200 animals, but we definitely saved 130,000 dogs and cats, and prevented and a norm is 3 million lives from being born. vital think that the most thing is to save the lives of animals used for food, you have to support the campaigns to and the use of animals for clothing because all of those animals bodies become food. the food industries depend on down pillow sales, leather shoes sales to bolster profits. every time we strike a blow against the skin's industry, the meat and the dairy industries
take a massive hit. [applause] the alligators and the ostriches that are made into product bags are eaten. the dogs bludgeoned for leather re: in. 10 -- are eaten. we did not get to this point by only talking about animal farming. it has been a long and hard road. you took yours own muzzle to a co-op in berkeley, you could only by one ship who that was not tested on animals. the brand was hard to find. it was expensive. fur was not an issue, it --
was not an issue, it was a status symbol. there was no cgi to replace it wild animals in movies, and no one questioned scientists. now we have replacements for everything, from naked and ballet slippers, to training models that bleed. millions of animals from experiments and clothes slabs like this one. [applause] ingrid: over 2000 companies no longer pork products into animals eyes and down into their stomachs, so to be told to ignore the suffering of animals in labs makes me angry. finally, some people are embarrassed by controversial campaigns, and i ask them to look back. people said the lunch counter protests were impolite and they
would set the civil rights movement back 100 years. we are together fighting aids tests on animals long ago. act up was fantastic. traffic, they just outrageously to say it is what's inside that counts. they empower people to be bold. their motto was, "never be silent," which is our motto now. cromwell failing to be silent. [indiscernible] [applause] we stopped those
experiments on cats because we made people uncomfortable. i bless direct action everywhere and groups like that for what they do. [applause] all they do is tell people the honest to god truth. [applause] challenge we never people, we just tell them what they already know, when will we ever get to write? edgy tacticsis that create a buzz so that our movement is seen and heard. allowing people to remain in their comfort zones allow its us to remain -- allows us to remain in ours. social movements are not about comfort, they are about struggle, and that is what we have to do, struggle for animal
rights. [applause] ingrid: we all have far more than we need. i am not a big consumer. you can see i am not a fashionable dresser, but i am no monk. dinnery shoes or go to or a movie or vacation, i charge myself an animal tax. it is easy, it feels good, and i really recommend it. it is easy as i. any of us could have been born a mouse on a glue trap or a child in a slum, or a dog. we are so lucky that we were not. i just learned this. anyone who makes $34,000 a year is among the richest 1%. you hear about the 1%, all you
have to do given the world's population on poverty is make $34,000 and you are in the world's richest 1%. we buy a few lattes, let's give the cost of another latte to the animals, or any campaign we care about. if you put gas in your car, i had a dollar for the animals. if you inherit money, get taxes back, a raise, or a bonus, consider paying the animal tax. to summarize -- [applause] ingrid: it's ok. i am no fundraiser. they kicked me out of the fund-raising meeting. i just spend it. to summarize, please, let's not hug those who still keep work is in tiny cages, but don't read them now.
breed them now. remember that man in philadelphia who kidnapped all those women, kept them in the basement and raped them? what if he stopped raping them, but he still kept them? without really be ok? let's get the organ is out. let's bust them and -- bust the myth that it is humane. going vegan that means wearing begin, not being photographed with a parent on our shoulders, not swimming with , objecting to all animal objectification, showing the videos to everyone, and never shutting up about how , and actively are working to stop the abuse of all labs, be in and the
circus, trained in the backyard, hit in the face of clippers. kept in cages, hunted, trapped, and toward apart. let's be loud, let's be strong, let's be persuasive, let's be determined, let's be unstoppable, and let's be uncomfortable. next year, more victories because animal rights will happen if we try, and we try hard. please, do everything you can possibly think of to do all the time. thank you very very much. [applause]
[captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2016] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> members of congress return to washington from their summer break and eight days. senator chris murphy sent a 20 today on how he plans to spend the time. murphy, i am about to try something different. i'm going to start working here in connecticut. i'm going to start heading west,
and i am going to see how far i get over the course of the next six days. the idea is to see connecticut from a different perspective, to start walking on average about three miles a day and try to stop in on as many homes and toinesses as i can to try hear about what people care about on the ground floor of connecticut. people that may never have a thought to e-mail me or come visit me. maybe i will be able to get a perspective, walking across the state that is different than you would get any other way. toon't know how far am going get. i hope that for as long as it lasts, whether it be a half a day or six days, that you will follow along as i start walking east to west across the state of connecticut. summerre taking its break, the senate voted for a second time to block funding to combat and confront the zika virus. just last may, when our
democratic colleagues asked us to act, and act with urgency, but today, a turned down the very money that they argued for last may, and they decided to gamble with the lives of children like this, instead of protecting them. as i said, they ignored their own calls to get this done quickly, and they refuse the past urgent members that would protect the country from a public health crisis. as i said when i started mr. president, this is a test today to see whether our democratic colleagues cared more about babies like this, or special failedt groups, and they the test. it is simple as that. planned parenthood, an organization where hundreds and hundreds of thousands of women go for their care.
do you think they were going to have a rush of business now, because women in america today want to make sure that they have the ability to not get pregnant. why? because mosquitoes ravage pregnant women. under the logic of the republican leader, i think they don't lead to go to planned parenthood, they can go to their doctor someplace in las vegas or chicago or lexington, kentucky. they can go to an emergency room and to say, "i'm sorry, i didn't get birth control. will you help me?" that's what emergency room's are for. no, that's what planned parenthood is for. that's majorities of women who need help, they go to planned parenthood. legislation we got back from the house, there is no
money to be provided for that. this thursday, a preview of four major issues congress will debate when they return from recess, zika funding, defense policy, gun violence, and the impeachment of the irs commissioner. an update with washington examiner senior congressional correspondent. that is thursday at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. >> now, a discussion on the way some cities are expanding affordable housing, from today's "washington journal." host: erika poethig is director of urban policy initiative at the urban institute and joins us to discuss affordable housing availability. let's begin with definitions. when we say affordable housing, what do we mean? guest: affordability is a relative term, relative to how much income you have to pay for housing. housing policy, 30% of your
income for rent mortgage is consider the affordability standard. as you have higher income, you have more ability to pay for housing. lower income, less ability to pay for housing. producing housing, and operating housing have certain costs associated with it are the less income you have, the less ability you have to cover the costs of what it takes to build and operate housing. we used the term affordable housing, and what we're typically referring to is that housing that was produced or operated was some kind of subsidy, whether it federal, state, or local. host: when we talk about section eight public housing, where does that fall? guest: section eight is a form of government assistance, and it comes in two kinds of forms. one is a voucher given to a particular person or household and allows them to find housing
in the private marketplace. they use that voucher to cover the difference between what they can afford and what the apartment actually costs. project eight section of housing is a contract with a private owner that has agreed to set aside a certain number of units and make those affordable to people of a certain income. host: so are there other federal and state programs? guest: yes, the public housing is another form, and it is publicly owned in federally assisted housing. that is also another form of affordable rental housing. and then states and localities also provide and subsidize housing. the largest program today is something called housing financed with the low income housing tax credit. it is actually not a program that the u.s. department of housing and urban development
funds. it is a tax credit provided to the u.s. treasury. so it is a credit that enables developers to get access to private capital and build affordable housing. and it is the most robust program today for affordable housing in the united states. host: what are the qualifications for that program? guest: it is income-based. what happens is a developer receives the tax credit to help them develop and build affordable housing, and then they rent those units at rents that people earning 60% of the area's median income can afford. let's take for instance, denver. denver is not a hot market, and it is not a weak market. it is relatively healthy.
in the region of denver, the median income is about $72,000 a year for a household of three people. so 60% of that area median income is about $42,000. so a rent that a family earning about $42,000 can afford is about $1000 a month. a developer makes their units affordable to that group of people, and that is considered one form of affordable housing. the federal rental assistance programs i described earlier typically serve a lower income group, those earning more like 30% of area median income. in denver, that is a household of three, maybe a retail cashier, a single-parent, earning about $21,000 a year. our affordability programs are used to sort of benchmark
against different income groups. host: erika poethig is with the urban institute, the urban policy initiatives director. doing phone lines a little differently in this segment, as we discussed the availability of affordable housing, we want to hear your stories and take your questions. the phone numbers paired if you received housing assistance, 202-748-8000. for renters, 202-748-8001. owners, 202-748-8002. all others, 202-748-8003. we will put those numbers on the screen. you can start calling in now. i want you to walk us through these charts. this is based on the urban institute's data from 2000 22013. where affordable housing has gotten harder to find, about the same, and easier to find. on the left, localities on the country where affordable housing is harder to find.
in includes a lot of the country. what are the biggest threats of why affordable housing has become harder to find? guest: a big national problem that we have, especially after the housing crisis in 2008, is that we have not been producing enough housing overall. this is particularly the case with rental housing. last year, for instance, in 2015, we added one million new households in the united states, but we only added 620,000 units to the overall stock of housing, which means we have a gap of about 430,000 units that were not produced. what does that mean? on the supply and demand curve, we have supplied not keeping up with demand. looking ahead to the future, one of the problems we face is we are going to be adding more renters than homeowners.
this creates pressure on rents. some places in the country feel this pressure greater than others, maybe because they have not supplied enough or that they have hotter economies and have not caught up with the amount of housing they need to provide in order to take account of the new people coming to work, like the silicon valley. i think that is one of the cases people point to the most. places on the coast are feeling these pressures the greatest. that is one part of the challenge we face with feeling pressure in some places of the country. the other challenge is that we have an increasing number of households at the lower part of the income spectrum. that group is growing, and that group has grown over the last 15 years. 38% growth in the number of what we call extremely low income households. so that means that those folks
have fewer resources to pay for affordable housing, and the number of units we have in this kind of affordable housing category are not keeping pace with the demands. and that is creating some of the pressures in different parts of the country. host: we will walk our viewers for those charts again. 2013 where affordable housing has gotten harder to find is the first chart. in the middle, parts of the country where affordable housing is about the same from 2000 and 2013. on the far right, affordable housing has become easier to find over this 13 years. those charts based on urban institute data. first caller, susan in massachusetts, line for renters. caller: thank you for having this topic. i am in the epicenter of unaffordable real estate here in boston metro. i am going to try to be clear, i
think there are a lot of external forces that contribute to the situation, and the perpetual low interest rate, failure of the fed to raise the interest rates, is just a result of that. the first thing is that wages have stagnated since the 1970's. so real estate is the only way people really accumulate wealth now. and then you have people that have amazing wealth that they garnered through offshore cap shelters and you have foreign buyers, in austin particularly, we have the wealthy chinese who are cash buyers and can pay any amount of money because they are not taxed, a way of keeping them at bay. so you have billionaires and -- here in boston, who drive up the market. then you have people who bought
realistic, baby boomers, that are able to sell it. they bought it for $40,000 and can sell the property for $2 million. you have these factors and then an aging transportation system that does not go far out of the metro areas. we have tons of wonderful communities and sort of suffering communities that need an infusion of young residents and middle-class people. and people would love to go there. but there is way to get to work. i want to speak about the section eight system. my late mother was fortunate enough late in her life -- my father was sick and did not work much, and it was back in the late 1980's that she was able to get a section eight voucher. she got a small one bedroom in a then struggling, transitional, crime-ridden neighborhood, but now it is one of the most desirable areas in the country. i do not know what she would
have done without that affordable unit. it was such a blessing on so many levels. the panama papers' data reveal that the reason markets in london, boston, new york, san francisco, now houston, and now even cleveland is getting hot again, it is because people, when they have so much wealth, it is not really taxed by their municipalities and governments. they can buy anything they want at any price. it seems like these external factors are really a part of this, as well. host: you bring up a lot of points. we want to let erika poethig respond to it we appreciate you sharing your story. guest: susan, you are right, boston is one of the hottest markets in the country and one of the places people are feeling effects of this the most when it comes to finding affordable
rental housing or a house they can afford to buy. massachusetts and boston are often times considered to be models for the rest of the country about what you can do at a state and local level to help people afford, maintain affordable rental housing. on the one hand, it faces these pressures. on the other hand, it has a very robust private sector and public sector that has been working on these challenges for a long time. so i appreciate the fact that you raised the issue that your mother received a section eight voucher, which helped to stabilize her situation. nearly 32% of the people of federal rental assistance are seniors. what we anticipate going forward is an increasing share of federal rental assistance or affordable housing will be utilized by seniors because of the growth in the baby-boom generation.
and these are people on a fixed income. they really represent some of the groups of people at the need income spectrum that stable, affordable rental housing. host: lynn on twitter wants to know, what is the wait time for housing assistance? guest: often times a year. depending on your jurisdiction, you can be waiting for years to receive a voucher or to get into public housing or to get into an independent development. it really depends upon the demand in your particular area. one of the things the public housing authorities do is they create lotteries in order to make sure that those are fair systems. so they open up those lotteries on a periodic basis to make sure they are receiving new applicants. it is the case that only one in
dr. eligible households receive any form of federal rental assistance, you will just have more demand than you have supply. host: a call from texas, a homeowner. caller: good morning first of all, i want to say how much i love c-span, and the moderators do such a terrific job. i really enjoy it. host: appreciate that. what is your question? caller: well, what i see anecdotally in longview is many situations where qualified people live in the affordable housing apartments, what have you, and then, a boyfriend moves in that is making a lot of money as a welder or some trade and lives there, and it is just not fair to the people that are waiting in line for that situation to be going on. i don't see enough controls to monitor that.
host: thanks for bringing that up. guest: thanks for the question. these are rules that the local management company does, and they work very hard to ensure -- in force in affordable rental housing for the reasons that he raised. there are periodic checks and other mechanisms to check on that. host: do they come into the home? guest: they do annual recertifications. and certainly, if they get a report of another person in the household, they do investigate that. and if there are broader concerns about that, i would refer him to the hud ig or other kinds of concerns along this particular lines. host: judy receives housing assistance in idaho falls, idaho. good morning. caller: yes, i am on disability.
private market available for that amount of money, which is recently why the affordable housing programs help with that particular gap. imb very sorry to hear that you have been homeless -- i am very sorry to hear you have been homeless. what we know from rigorous research is that these programs reduce homelessness by three-quarters. it is a solution for that problem for precisely the reasons judy raises. host: what is the federal budget for these programs on a yearly basis? guest: federal rental assistance is about 84% of hud's budget, which is about $40 billion a year. hud'sis a majority of budget, what it principally manages on a daily basis, and that is from a variety of different programs, including those focused on homelessness and essentially kind of blending
housing with services, as well as the public housing programs, the voucher program, and the section eight rental program. that is the majority of hud's budget. ust: erika poethig is with for the next 25 minutes or so. special lines for this segment -- host: if you want to look at some of the numbers are some of the charts we have been talking about, it is urban.org. janet in washington, a renter. good morning. husband died in 1970. is -- he was on section
eight in washington while i lived in ohio. had noed me when i surgery, and he lost his section eight. i moved to washington. he tried to get back on section eight. there is a very long waiting list, and he has not been able to get on it. he i am renting a place in a not allowed to have anybody else would. live here. i have nobody to help him. him. with his health problem, he should not be homeless. i do not know what to do.
he has been trying to get on section eight, but he is just not able. janet, i know, again, i am very sorry to hear about your son's situation and your own situation. unfortunately, section eight is a very scarce resource. no longern folks utilize the subsidy income off of it, he goes very quickly that can to the set of resources that then make it available to the next person on the waiting list. often times, hugh stay on the waiting list for years waiting for public assistance -- you stay on the waiting list for years. i am sorry to hear that. there are some states, and washington is definitely one, trying to add additional safety sources to help fill the gap. the congress has not allocated any new resources for affordable
renting housing in more than 15 years. so the pressures are that we have a growing afford ability challenge, and our resources for affordable rental assistance are essentially capped. the state or local solutions can only go so far, so that is the challenge we face in meeting the needs of low-income americans. call from new york, homeowner. good morning. caller: thank you for the opportunity. i am a homeowner very shortly, only because the taxes are now four times when my original mortgage was when i purchased my home way back in the day. i think what needs to be honed in on is the pervasive corruption in these programs, specifically hud. politicians always want to bring affordable housing, yet they seem to game the system to the point that we are being taxed out of our homes.
beenin point, hud has compromised by political elites that supposedly oversee these programs, and they always game the system with hud. president bush had actually pardoned -- i live on the eastern end of suffolk county on long island, and there was a developer who was very cozy with the president of the united states. time and time again, he would get people into homes using a signature with a mortgage he knew they could never pay. he would even them and resell to another family, apply for more moneys, evict those people to her could ever afford to pay for it. he lied to them about taxes. eliot spitzer prosecuted this gentleman, on the president came in and pardoned the gentleman. when he was scrutinized by the
media, he revoked the pardon for the first time in presidential history. that was because it specifically exhibit fight how the system was being gamed. there seems to be a discrimination that exists, especially on the eastern end of long island. that is why we do not have mass transit out here. they do not want lesser people than themselves crowding them in the suburbs and the communities of the east end. host: we want to get erika poethig to jump in. waste, fraud, and abuse, specifically at hud. guest: it has been a problem in hud's history. there have in very public instances where there has been fraudulent behavior and essentially execution of the policy. that meant that congress has held hud more accountable than some other agencies in the federal government through some
the called the hud reform act. so the standards for hud now are much higher than they are for other federal agencies because of this history. i do not know about them more recent situations he is referring to. but if you think someone fraudulent is going on, i would refer him to the hud ig to investigate. in my own experience, hud is held to a much higher standard, in part because of this history that went on in the 1980's and maybe a little bit into the 1990's. certainly the case more recently, that hud is tackling those particular issues much more forcefully as a result. ofhink the more recent issue raised, which is certainly the case, which is what we call nimby-ism -- not in my backyard,
and white becomes very difficult it becomeshy difficult is, on the one hand, it is costly to build housing in the u.s. for a variety of reasons. acquiring lands, construction costs, net operating it. that becomes more costly when you have local regulation controls that add onto those costs. and in many communities, those are focused on keeping certain kinds of housing out. and that history of keeping what we call exclusionary loaning policies in place makes it more difficult and expensive to build affordable housing and has led to a pattern of, honestly, segregation and the united states that is the focus than of another aspect of hud's mission, which is a fair housing. host: darlene receives housing assistance in clark county,
nevada. caller: good morning. so nice to speak to you this morning. yes, i live in conventional public housing in las vegas, nevada. i happen to know the staff of the housing authority very well, from the deputy director down. they have worked so hard in the last six years in las vegas to rehab all the properties that they had. clark county housing authority acquired city of las vegas housing authority, and then they city oft requiring north las vegas and did integrate them. so some of the properties were in terrible disrepair. they had horrible news reports. so when the housing authority accepted these other groups, they made them get busy and really improve the properties. so i have very fortunate.
i am terminally ill, and i live in a very am a very beautiful neighborhood, and i feel very blessed to have such a program exist. the only thing that scared me was when a strange lady showed up to audit me. and i said, excuse me? she broke out a laptop and said that she wanted to make sure management's records are the same as yours. so i got out a ledger book, and she said, you have got a ledger book? i said, ma'am, tell me what month, what year you would like to know about. she looked through my ledger book and she said, wow, you are detailed oriented. i said, i cannot afford to have things turned up. she was wonderful, but she explained to me that from housing authority through hud, that $40 million was missing. she explained that when the republicans were in office, they
put type two homes of housing assistance. democrats removed those controls. so 40 million taxpayer dollars went missing. i started to cry and said, ma'am, i hope you find your $40 million. so what my housing authority has been doing is they have been partnering with local businesses so that they still have the property. however, the businesses share in the costs. it makes it a lot easier on them. host: darlene raises a couple of issues. one is the condition of public housing and the need to prove the condition. we have a very old public housing stock built in the 1940's that needs to be recapitalized. in thes that backlog
resources available and needs of the public housing stock. congress has not appropriated a sufficient amount of funds to cover those particular costs. partneringy, it is with the private market to generate resources to improve the quality. darlene was pointing that out. in order to to how gain greater efficiency and improve the ability of people to live within the region, las vegas is one of the early adopters of the efforts to consolidate and regionalized housing provisions. so she noted that one of the things that has happened is that has led to the improvement of the conditions in some of those authorities that may have been a smaller place. this last issue about -- i don't
know what you are referring to in relation to the audit -- hud does have a check on illegal payments and it has performed very well against other agencies. there is a very low percentage. it is around 1%. where they find illegal know what then't particular issue is that she is referring to but other agencies -- i guess its own threshold -- hud has been trying to nail down those illegal payments and take care of them. rome, georgia.n good morning. homeowner. was about question able-bodied people that are on public housing. personally that
has been on public housing for it aars and she makes point not to work and she says plenty of times she just wants to be a stay-at-home mom. i don't understand how people like that could take advantage -- there are other people who need it more. that is pretty much it. don't know the circumstances of this particular issue but let me give you a bit of a sense of who lives in public housing or who receives federal rental assistance. about 50% of the recipients are either seniors or people on disability. are families with children. some additional small percentages are the disabled adults with children in the household or seniors taking care of grandchildren.
housing is for people who are on very fixed incomes. 8% of rental assistance recipients are on tennis. .- tanis 12% are households with children under the age of six or kicker -- or caring for a senior citizen. that does represent one of the groups of people that lives in federal rental assistance who may not be working because they are caring for young children. if you come back to this example in denver, where you have a household with a single parent they arechildren, so working, they are only earning $21,000 a year which means they
can only afford $540 a month in rent. costs, youchildcare can see that things can quickly add up. if you don't receive assistance you may be paying even more than what you can afford. the united states there are 11.2 million households that pay more than 50% of their income for housing and those folks are called severely rent burden. when you pay more than 50%, you are crowding out all of the other kinds of resources that may be important for working, like childcare. host: another viewer who received housing assistance. larry in texas. caller: good morning. i ama vietnam veteran and in the program since 2010.
for $700. is approved the house i live in is worth $700 a month. my portion of the rent was $50 a month. out of the 700. owner of the property requested a $100 rent increase and it if -- it was approved. , so my rentealtor went from 15 month -- 50 a month to 175. i had no income for a disability that i had suffered in vietnam. may of this year, i went to recertify the voucher and i had a new worker looked at my file
and said "why are you paying $175 a month?" thresholdthis is your that you are supposed to pay and you are paying way over. do anything until you hear from me again and i haven't heard from the housing authority since. what would you recommend that i do? host: as you are answering, can you explain what the program is. guest: those vouchers are a special allocation of the section eight rental voucher that i explained earlier that a householder gets to afford housing. the m&a from a commitment and a innt goal between veterans the obama administration to end homelessness in veteran.
they have added new rental vouchers for very specific population. that voucher has been allocated specifically towards a goal of ending veteran homelessness. in this particular case, one thing i wanted to point out is what he is raising is the fact that there are 25% of recipients of federal rental assistance that are paying more than 30% of their income for rent. we don't know exactly why that may be the case. that may be to afford more expensive housing in a higher opportunity community or situations like larry just described. we try to bring that affordability threshold to 30%, it is the case that there are people that pay more of their income for housing who even received federal rental assistance.
of his particular situation, i would consider putting something in writing and potentially either writing the housing authority or writing the u.s. department of housing and urban development in order to see if his situation can get additional attention. host: is there somebody that does that sort of casework? public andoffice of indian housing is the office in the hud that oversees the voucher program. host: gloria is in bridgewater new jersey, a homeowner. good morning. i have a suggestion. that i have is such been in my home for 40 years. we have pay taxes here for 50 years. of any the highest taxes
homeowners in the country because we live in new jersey and i am now 80 years old and i am paying over $15,000 a year in taxes. i feel that when you have been in a community a certain number of years, you have raised your family and when you reach retirement age the taxes should be taken off. i am in a situation where i am being forced to sell my home very shortly. afford to- i cannot live in a house that i built and lived in a community. parents arees is leaving the state because of the taxes. it forces elderly people to break up communities. i will be leaving out of the state. if we did that it would
stabilize the community. anybody that moves into a house -- in my case i have five children and anybody that moves in my house will be educating a large family again. if you allowed people to take that part off of their taxes, it would stabilize the community. you wouldn't be educating time and time again, a community of children. i have no objection to paying taxes but i feel that if we did be moremilies could together. host: thanks for talking about your situation. guest: we anticipate there is going to be more and more older adults facing this particular situation in the future as baby boomers age. perhaps the home that they are living in is no longer affordable once they are on a
fixed income. property taxes are a reflection of the kinds of services at the people living in that community want. they are a mechanism to raise the resources to pay for public services. new jersey has a reputation of excellent public services and public schools. the mechanism to pay for those is property tax. host: are there states that give property tax breaks? i don't know about the specifics in new jersey but many states or localities provide tax abatements or tax breaks to older adults for precisely the reason that gloria was discussing. you can only take those particulars so far. and then you still provide some of the public services necessary host:. time for a few more calls. roy is in north carolina, a renter. caller: good morning.
host: go ahead. caller: my wife and i are in our 80's and can't work and we have been living in a small apart in one of my sons commercial he is losing bet to foreclosure in november and we are going to have a problem about renting. how does one apply for rental assistance? be it federal or state? certainly. caller: i live in north carolina. guest: i don't know if the place you live has a housing authority associated with it but if it does, go to the housing authority and apply for federal rental assistance where you can apply for assistance and there
are particular building set aside for seniors. the other thing to do is, if you have access to a computer, is to look for properties that receive something called section 202, which are developed and managed i profits for seniors and older adults that maybe in your community and to go to that property specifically and apply for an apartment in that property. those have restricted rents for older adults and may have availabilities for you. i don't know if there is affordable housing in your particular community but certainly in north carolina there is senior housing and other kinds of assistance. time for one more call, anthony is in new york. that fellow who called about the rescinding.
developer, dishonest they had pardoned him and they found out that he had given $28,000 to the republican party. history, they in rescinded apart from the president. it.t: i don't remember i am sorry, i can't comment. host: did you have time for a quick question? they are known for being dishonest. host: this segment in the washington journal, erica is with the urban policy initiative . check them out at >> c-span's washington journal live every day with news, policy issues and more that impact you. coming up on tuesday
morning, policy director for the economic policy institute will join us to discuss his recent report on what has been one of the slowest economic recoveries in recent u.s. history. the former assistant administrator with the epa will talk about the obama administration's plans to lift powerouse emissions from plant. watch c-span's washington easternlive in at 7:00 on tuesday morning. join the discussion. >> with the house and senate returning from their summer break next week, on thursday at 8:00 p.m. eastern, we will preview for key issues facing congress this fall. that all funding to combat the zika virus. >> women in america today point to make sure they have the ability to not get pregnant. why? because mosquitoes ravage pregnant women. >> they turned down the very
money that they argued for last may and decided to gamble with the lives of children like this. >> the defense policy bill. >> all of these votes are vital to the future of this nation and a time of turmoil and the greatest number of refugees since the end of world war ii. >> gun violence legislation and criminal justice reform. >> every member of this body, every republican and democratic wants to see less gun violence. work thet continue to work of nonviolence and demand an end to senseless killing everywhere. >> and the resolution for farmers to impeach irs commissioner. irsongress to impeach commissioner. impeach the commissioner of the internal revenue service for
high crimes and misdemeanors. >> we will review the expected debate. when us on thursday night at the clock eastern on c-span for congress this fall -- 8:00 eastern on c-span for congress this fall. >> coming up tonight, a discussion on the future of digital technology in media, lifestyle and health care. then a form on the history of feminism. later, a discussion on global counterterrorism efforts between the united states and the european union. we will take a look at a story tonight. the u.s. has criticized turkey for launching attacks on syrian rebel groups. saying it's efforts should instead be focused on defeating isis extremists. turkish president had turkish backed forces the -- pushed deeper into syria. reports adjusting that at the start of the operation,