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tv   Public Affairs Events  CSPAN  December 2, 2016 8:00pm-9:01pm EST

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they are the ones you see the if there is an issue that you see happening every day on the street, that is probably where you can start. you can go to our website for more information. >> tonight on c-span, a public memorial service for former cuban president fidel castro. and then, the presidential process. and kevin brady talks about potential changes to the tax code and other tax policy issues. this week, thousands of cubans
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gathered in havana's revolution plaza to pay their respects to fidel castro, who died last week at the age of 90. cuban president raul castro joined the leaders that a public rally and memorial service in honor of his brother. this is courtesy of cuban natural -- national television. [applause] >> we will now continue with words expressed by the president minister, general raul castro. [applause]
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>> everyone can relax, i am the last speaker. esteemed heads of state and government, chiefs of the dignitaries, friends, and the beloved cuban people. although i will give a final speech on december 3 when we the revolution square in san diego, cuba.
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cuba.tiago, i would like to express on behalf of our people, ourrnment, and family, sincerest gratitude for your attendance at this event and for the moving words of that have been expressed here, as well as the extraordinary and countless expressions of solidarity, received, and respect from the world over during this time of grief. life tovoted his entire socialist and let a revolution bylist
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the humble and for the humble, that became a symbol of the anti-apartheid, and anti-imperialist struggle for the emancipation and dignity of the people. stirring words are echoed today in this square. meeting ofing the inmers on july 26, 1959, support of the agrarian reform that was costing -- crossing the strugglend led to the to the death by the revolution. asserted that the
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agrarian reform would move on. and we did it. we are57 years later, honoring the person who .onceived and led it we votedhis place, together with him during the first and second declaration of of 1960 and 1962, respectively. here, in the face of acts of aggression supported by the organization of the american stated thatidel behind the nation, behind the
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behind theedom, peopleion, there is a thatare rate to defend -- are ready to defend their independence and a free latin america. i was together with fidel at that ministry of revolutionary armed forces when we heard about ship.plosion of a french the first and only weapons we could procure in europe. we left from here to the dock
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because we knew that only that explosion could have originated from the ship that we were unloading with it these weapons. ,e went to help the victims when a few minutes after we we saw, almost as a deadly trap, a second explosion. these events led to the deaths of 101 people and numerous injured victims. for here, with him. a country freea in december 1961,
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with the conclusion of the ledracy campaign that was by more than 250,000 teachers and students. it continued forward. in the meantime, during that rebel army and the newly created national revolutionary militias engaged in combat with mercenaries in the bay of pigs. areasn the mountainous bands ofrmed infiltrators a came from outside the country.
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and multipleictims they murdered 10 young people involved in the literacy campaign. it was revealed at the bay of pigs. at the same time, we moved forward with the literacy program throughout the country. said, the young people have the future in their hands. with profound emotion, here we heard the commander in this during a solemn ceremony in october 1967, pay tribute to
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commandantetable che guevara. and we came back, 30 years later, after one of the most difficult periods. we were shaken and indignant. and we attended the funeral of murdered by state bombing of ae cuban airplane in barbados. were the the victims
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had won golds who medals in the fourth central american and caribbean fencing championship. we repeated together with him geneticeople is under energetic. justice will tremble. square that has seen many important parades on may 1996 against of the packede and helms burton parade, and the enormous
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in 1999. and, during the youth events, the student events and workers events in 2000 where fidel expressed his theory of revolution. cubans areions of also taking it upon themselves in a sacred act of popular will. this location where we support the with the made communist party congress of cuba. and it is in this same spirit
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that we have seen over the last participate people with great engagement by the expressed their , and of sworn loyalty to the ideas and work of the commander in chief of the cuban revolution, dear fidel. monument,ding at the to a national hero and inspiration of the attack on the where we had been meeting for more than a century iods of extraordinary
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grief, as well as to honor our ideals, and proclaim our , and revere our symbols, as onl as console our people key decisions. here where wely and werate our victories , toto you, that together our selfless struggling and , we will always move forward until we achieve victory.
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[applause] fidel.ting yo soy
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[captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2016] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] tv's in depth.ok we are hosting a discussion on the 1941 attack of pearl harbor on the eve of the 75th anniversary. and we have authors followed by
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an interview with a pearl harbor and author, and american sailors firsthand account of pearl harbor. we are taking your phone calls, tweets, and email questions. -- booktv.org for the full schedule. nia trump becomes a the second foreign-born first lady. we have a look at every presidential spouse in american history. it is a companion to c-span's well-regarded biography tv series and features interviews with 54 of the nation's leading first lady historians. biographies of 45 first ladies and photos from each of their lives.
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"first ladies," is available wherever you buy books. now available in paperback. >> and next, former white house staffers talk about what is ahead of inauguration day to prepare the first family for their move into the white house. they also talk about other parts of the transition process including the hiring of new staff and feeling key cabinet positions. posted by the national for the social studies, this is one hour. >> good morning. i welcome you to this very exciting, vital issue session
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about the presidential transition in the white house. the board of directors for the national council of social studies. i would like to give a brief interruption -- brief introduction of our esteemed cabinet. we have the emeritus professor of political science at townsend university and she was the director of the white house transition project. they provide transitions to those who come into the white house. miss and -- anne stock, she was the director of at thel affairs, and john f. kennedy center for the performing arts. and served as deputy assistant to president bill clinton as the social secretary at the white house. i found an interesting quote about you, miss
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stock, on the white house historical society. it says that you always send care packages to the new social secretary. it's got vitamins, aspirin, nylons, it has a comb, hair spray, all the things you need to exist. >> and toothpaste and a toothbrush. >> ok. >> because you never get to go home. >> we also have dr. sullivan, a member of the faculty of the department of science and 2015 teacher of the year there. dr. sullivan states his teaching is guided by his passion to train students to develop their own understanding of presidential leadership, influence and complexity of political strategy and the nature of political power. he also currently serves as the director of the white house transition project, a project preparing both major presidential candidates, the president-elect and the outgoing president for the transition. and finally, mr. gary walters worked at the white house for 37 years and was the chief usher from 1986 through
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his retirement in 2007. serving seven presidents from 43.n to bush the chief usher is charged with making the house a home for the first family and running many events. he advised about 100 members of white house staff and observed the first family at their most human and most vulnerable before and after public events that form the historical record of the administration so please join me in welcoming the panel. [applause] >> thank you very much. gary can tell us about the moving in and moving out of the first families. ann can can talk about the white house staff and moving in and moving out as well. and the staff operations, she in addition to working for hillary clinton as first lady,
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she also worked for walter mondale doing press and came into the white house in the carter mondale administration. then terry sullivan will talk about presidential appointments and bringing in a full administration, so, we're going from very specific to more general. so gary, can you start us off and tell us about the moving in and moving out? >> as best i can, to still remain a person who tries to protect the privacy of the first family. that is our first goal the , privacy of the family, both on the move out and move in. the chief usher's responsibilities during a transition are first and foremost, coordinating and directing the move out of the theent first family and plans for moving in for the incoming president and his family. we also coordinate events to be held at the white house.
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the plan with the social secretary for events leading up to inaugural day. usually, the presidents do thank you events for their supporters. those who have been with them for four years or eight years and they do receptions and dinners leading up to inaugural. i also would coordinate with the inaugural committee on the presidential reviewing stamp in front of the white house that's used during the presidential parade, provide information as required to the secret service and to the military, the united states military, who are performing the activities of the inaugural day. and then i work with the first family, the incoming first family, and their representatives for the events and activities that will happen on and after inaugural day. in pre-ande actions of the post events at the white
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house, the chief usher works with the social secretary providing information on the incoming family and then the social secretary of the sitting president for the events that are going to take place leading up to inaugural morning. >> we're hooked at the hip. [laughter] >> we spend a lot of time together. >> like an old married couple. >> the post, the pre and post inaugural activity that is the chief usher gets involved with are the planning for the packing of personal items as directed by the first family. also arranging for , the shipment of those items out of the white house arranging for the transfer , of items that are on loan, whether from personal entities, libraries art , galleries. and also, those things that are possessions of the united states government to go to the national archives. as far as the post inaugural day activities are concerned, we coordinate activities within the executive residence for the first family as well as their guests, who have attended the inaugural
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balls and their plans for staying around for a couple of days or getting out of town. whichever they decide to do. there is also planning that is carried out and the execution of those post inaugural parties. once again, the president has a lot of people he wants to thank for helping him get into office. to assist the current first family's move into the white house, and before i go any further, i want to establish the fact that all the moving, packing are done at the direction of the first family. the sitting first family. and none of that is done without their direction. the executive residence remains the home of the sitting president until they depart on inaugural morning to go to the capitol. then following our discussions with the first lady, we follow her directions and packing and
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cataloging items that are being moved out of the white house eventually with photographs and a written log. and this is our documentation. one is presented to the first lady. one kept by a chief usher and one for the curator's office for historical purposes. this includes the items being sent out, the artwork and items that belong to the national archives. we also determine the items when they will be going out and to where they'll , be going. sometimes, not decided until very late. usually in the late summer of the election year, the chief usher begins work on producing briefing materials for the incoming family. each book presents questions intended to provoke a dialogue, usually with the first lady, but also with the incoming president. and it asks them for their personal needs and requirements. we need to make the white house their home. so we need to follow their directions,
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their wants, needs and desires. a potential list of questions that are presented are what types of mattresses do you sleep on? what type of sheets? pillows? how about towels? what toiletry items should we keep in stock? what kind of snacks do you want in the pantry? so, this is very personal information. and as i said, the questions are there to provoke a conversation. i would also present a floor plan of the private quarters with current photographs of all the individual rooms in the private quarters. additionally, i would provide information to the incoming first president about the furnishings, art work and those things which he may want in the oval office. i
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gather information, books, photos from the white house fine arts and furnishings collections as well as books on white house history that are provided by the white house historical association. following the election and upon the invitation of the sitting president and first lady, to the incoming president and his spouse, the chief ushers prepare to present these briefing books and then to begin a dialogue and make contacts with the representatives of the first lady and the president as well as anybody they deem to be their representative. then let's get to inaugural day. i call it organized chaos because we have quite a bit of activity going on in a very short period of time. usually six hours or less. the resident staff gathers before the rises and the chief usher
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invokes the five rules of inauguration. rule one, don't panic. we've done this before and we don't have any time for panic. rule two, be professional. we support the presidency, a concept technology by and appreciated by every president that i served. the residence is blind to party affiliation. you'll three, it is ok to be emotional. that staff in the executive residence has been with the sitting first president and first lady and their family for four or eight years. the emotional bond that develops between the staff and the family is very close. and it's very difficult at times to deal with that. the four, we adapt to family's routine. not the other way around. rule five, be prepared for anything, because it is going to happen. the official day begins at 10:00
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a.m. when the congressal inaugural escort committee arrives at the north portico of the white house and they proceed to the blue room where they await the president-elect and the president and their families prior to proceeding down to the capitol for the inaugural events. moving vans, which were preplaced overnight, any of you from washington know what traffic is like in washington on inaugural day. uber's not going to get around either. it's shoe leather. those moving vans come to the south portico. the resident staff is divided into a number of work crews. i usually divide them into groups of outgoing furniture movers, incoming furniture movers, packers, on packers, retrievers, placers, truck packers and truck unpackers and then i use the curator's office at the white house to monitor and catalog special interest and high value items coming in and going on. the chief usher gets to set in the
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middle of all this and be a kind of concertmaster, directing everybody and ensuring that the wishes of the first family are met. it is the intended aim of the executive resident staff to have the departing family know that they are still in their home on inaugural morning. and it's not until they leave that they're actually leaving their home. it's also our goal that after the inaugural parade, the new first family comes into the white house that has been transformed into their home. their clothes are in their closets, not in boxes. their personal and chosen white house furniture in places they have designated. even their favorite foods and snacks in the pantry. and then the chief usher gets the great honor to greet the new president and the north portico and at the conclusion of the inaugural
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parade, welcome he and his family to their home, white house. thank you. [applause] >> thank you very much. i'm going to have some questions for you after we go through ann and terry. >> a lot of questions. and when jerry says organized chaos, that gives new meaning to the word organized chaos. thank you, martha, for bringing us together. i always love to talk about the white house and have fond memories of working for president carter and vice president mondale and for president clinton and secretary clinton. gary also mentioned, i worked on three transitions and as he said, a lot happens in a very short amount of time. it's exciting. it's energetic. it is energizing. it's chaotic and yes, it's absolutely exhaustive. neither one of us would trade it for the world. i think there are three things we should mention that make
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the transition what it is. first of all, we always have to remember that the very first thing involved in a transition is the peaceful transition of power from one president to another and from , one administration to another. an election is about people and policies. president-elect trump won, so he has the transition to tell the american people and the nation what his policy platforms will be and then he has the luxury of that amount of time to hire cabinet, sub cabinet and staff to put those policies in place. it's overwhelming when you think about it and i'm not going to spend time on this, but there are 4 million people between the military and federal government in place. 4,000 political appointees that have to get hired, and close to 1000 of those have to be
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confirmed by the senate. when we say the president alum -- president-elect trump is very , very busy right now, he is. it's an overwhelming responsibility. but i'd like to just talk briefly about the transition for the family. we spoke about the logistics of also talk should about the first lady, because there is a multiplicity of roles. on the clinton's first trip to washington right after the election in 1992, i had the good fortune to meet with secretary clinton. it was supposed to be a 20 minute interview and ended up being an hour and a half. she is essentially a presidential scholar. read 40 to 50 books on the presidency, the presidents and first ladies on the roles they play. she was particularly interested in the first lady's role. and i think not everyone realizes what is
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involved in the first lady's role. anita mcbride who's here from the american university first lady center, can also tell you and back me up on this. first of all, let me just mention the roles because it will be interesting to you to see what goes into what she actually does. for -- foremost, mom, spouse, daughter, sister. start with that. first hostess. for --we all look to the whitee all the time to see what's going on in the white house. they are trendsetters at the white house. the first time they served arctic char at a state dinner, about 30,000 pounds imported into the united states, after the year was up, 300,000 pounds were imported, so you set the trend and you can set styles. diplomats. laura bush and hillary clinton went around the world as ambassadors and diplomats for the united states.
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policy advocate. every first lady picks a platform that she wants, whether lynda carter with mental health, and a variety of others. she is also a steward of the house as is the president. they take care of the house. right? >> absolutely. >> they want to leave it -- they want to make improvements to it and every president and first lady does that. she is a style icon. we look to her to be a trendsetter. and i do not mean trendy, but to showcase what the best of america is. [phone ringing] [laughter] >> didn't turn off my phone? >> that's one of the first ladies calling her. >> oh, my gosh. >> coming here, my cab didn't arrive, then i had a flat tire.
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just calling everybody. >> then she can also be a spokeswoman both for the president and for the projects that she's working on. but the interesting thing about her role is she isn't elected. she can't be fired and she has no official job description. nothing written in the constitution about what she's supposed to do at all. but anita would also tell you, her job evolves over time. based on her interests, tastes and her ability. and what she decides she wants to do. she writes her own job description. and believe me, she is a -- she has a powerful and influential platform once she does that, but first, as gary mentioned, one of the most important things about the white house for the new incoming family is that they are a family. and this is a home. and they need to settle in to the home. one of the first thing that is -- that the first lady does, also with the president because
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bill clinton built the bookcases with the carpenters so he could put his books in alphabetical order literally. , she oversees settling into the white house and trying to make her family life as normal as humanly possible. she becomes what michelle obama called mom in chief role. and if you look back in history, whether it was jackie kennedy, hillary clinton, laura bush, michelle obama, every single person wants to know how to settle their family into the fish bowl of the white house and make their life as normal as possible. in september of 2008, i flew out to chicago to meet with michelle obama and three of her staff. and a lot her questions revolved around, can the girls take their beds? where do they get snacks? what happens when they come home from school? but the white house becomes the sanctuary and the respite
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of where people, the family can go and especially the president can go to relax and just be his family. think about it. every major issue, every major challenge, every major opportunity lands on the president's desk and so, it's important for them to have that respite, living above the store. i think you'll find, gary would agree, that one of the important things for all of the families is because they do essentially live above the store, they actually get to see more of each other, which becomes increasingly important. melania trump has already signaled that had the mom in chief role, this was during during the campaign as well as now, that is probably her most important role right now. she likely won't be moving to washington until june, when her son's school is out. absolutely a-ok.
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you do what is best for the family. the next thing is, and think about this because you see this , on television all the time. the first lady actually serves as first hostess. national hostess. that's an important role. we all look to see what's going on in the white house. we all look to see what their -- they are doing from an issues point of view when the , next state dinner is. what's going on in the white house. we want to know. that role starts the minute she comes down off the inaugural platform and walks into the white house. why? because as gary mentioned, there are likely a houseful of family and friends who are staying there. there's a dinner there and as we had the next day, 6,000 people come through the white house on a variety of events. but i think the next role is both a role for the president and the first lady. they are stewards of the house. and as i mentioned a minute ago,
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they want to leave the house with the imprint of the things they were important to add to the house. they also work a lot with with the white house historical association to make sure this happens. for example, mrs. obama just restored the old family dining room. hillary clinton restored and worked with a committee for the preservation of the white house, the blue room. the house gets wear and tear and a lot of things have to be taken care of. but in due time, the first lady takes on a really, really more public historic platform. believe me it's , really powerful. think about what mrs. obama did with the three or four things she did. let's move. she drew attention to obesity in the united states. rise higher. encouraging kids to take a look at aiming to go to college. let girls learn.
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encouraging the 62 million girls around the globe who aren't educated to get an education. and i think the one that all of us relate to is joining forces with dr. biden, which she did with for our vets and with our vets, so you can see all of you are shaking and nodding your head. you know what these platforms are and how powerful that bully pulpit can be coming from the white house. jackie kennedy did historic preservation and helped restore the president's park. again, she wrote the first guide book to the white house. still being issued with every new presidency. mrs. trump has also indicated though that what she would like to do is pick the platform of bullying and how the social media relates to young people. so that will be an extremely powerful platform
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that all of us can relate to. i think the other thing that hillary and i did in that conversation and this , is something all of you should you, we talked house ist the white actually used for and how it is perceived around the world. at the first thing it is an , office complex for the president. yes the oval office is a , center of power for the world. but everybody all over the world knows the oval office. a little-known fact, it is a world-class art museum of american history and decorative arts. 1.5 million people visit the white house every single year. there's a responsibility of the family and the ushers and the white house historical association to make sure that we are purchasing the items that are historically correct and need to be back in
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the white house. but that is also something that you do not often think about. for the clintons and most of the other first families, it is the people's house. what does that mean? you own it, it is your house. and the clintons wanted to be really inclusive and throw open the doors of the white house wide and have as many americans experience the home of the president as they could. i was exhausted and so was he. we entertained almost half a million people in the almost five years that i was there, but you want people to share and you figure out platforms so that you can see what's happening at the white house. most importantly though, it's a family home. and we often forget this. they live above the store. it's a very public life that they lead. and it is the place that they can retreat.
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the other thing we do not often realize and i think mrs. trump is going through now, hillary went through, mrs. obama, jackie kennedy, mrs. bush, you have to think through how you raise children or a child in the white house. to live some semblance of a normal life and protect them. they didn't run for re-election. they're a kid who got you know, put in the white house, chelsea at age 12. i think one of the most amazing things that the ushers did for her, i think it was the first night they were there, she had for friends from little rock spending the night. and they did a scavenger hunt through the state floor of the white house to find the painting of someone in the red room and they were running all over, getting used to the house. i finally realized, i knew when chelsea made the house her home, her parents one night were having a dinner for people in the green room and she came down to say good night to them and the
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marine orchestra was playing in the background and she was a ballerina. she came down off the elevator and went down into the grand lies, dancing,p completely oblivious to the orchestra. afterwards it she kissed her parents and went upstairs. that is i you and they settled into the house. the thing that sticks out most in my mind about the transition is going from being in a campaign to governing. it takes a lot of time and a lot of training and it's the first time when the president of the united states walks through the white house for the first time. he realizes he's walking and as the first lady, they're walking into the home of all the presidents of the united states except george washington, who never lived there. that's a powerful, powerful statement. i think martha wanted me to just address quickly though the kind of moving in.
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president clinton spent time during the transition appointing his cabinet. this white house staff was not appointed until about six or seven days, as i remember. >> january 14. >> how could i forget that? january 14, the inauguration was on the 20th and i had six days. luckily for me, i had worked there before. but you have people who literally are walking into the white house for the first time, they do not know where their offices are. you have to figure out how to make that work. my office became the hub of a lot of that. i was responsible for all of the activities, both in the white house and on the 18 acres. we were a small communications and special events office that worked with everybody. the ushers, the staff, the cabinet. and the american people to take the president's message, and translated into the
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event that all of you see and understand what is going on. i will leave you with this thought. january 20 was my first day but , not my first official day because i was kind of in the background observing this madness. but january 21 was my first official day. i arrived at 6:30 in the morning with no staff hired, to find that during the course of the day, we had a 3,500 person open house with the american people. they were just lined up at the gate and came into the white house. we discovered we hadn't invited a lot of the people who had supported the president and first lady during the campaign, so we had another 1000 people that we added right then and there at 1:00. -- notnors to thank donors, but 1000 supporters to thing. and my favorite of all time a
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, number of floats broke down during the parade, so on the spot at the parade he invited all of those citizens whose floats broke down to just come see his new house. [laughter] >> we were like, what? and so, we've got all these people performing in the grand foyer while in one room, we've got a reception about to start and up the back staircase, you remember this. we had 375 people coming for dinner. so needless to say, i arrived back at my office at 11:30 at night and said, i have to get this chaos organized or i will not be a bull to do this. because the next day, we swore in the cabinet and it went on from there. so it is an exciting time. always take an interest in your white house. remember it is the presidency. it's not necessarily one president against the other. they all have our democracy in mind, and i saw that every day it that i walked through the
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white house. think you very much. [applause] >> terry, can you talk to us about the standing up of an administration? and how a president puts together all of the people, those 4,000 people that he can appoint? >> short of national security, standing up of the american government is the single most daunting feature of the presidential transition from a constitutional perspective. right to left, we talk about the family, the beginning of the institution, presidentsonnel, the has the dual roles of constitutional leader and partisan leader.
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the leader of the government is of everythingnd that has to do with the peaceful transition of power. and in the 20 years we have been working on supporting eight presidential transition it seems to me that the biggest lesson is , whatever job you think you have that makes you qualified to be president and have that experience, whatever job that being president. another common theme is, a sports analogy. on us by thelaid george w. bush transition team. arkansas is not texas. texas is the second largest state in the union. major-league's. we are a aaa ball club about to send our best hitter up to the major league team. is ahat sports analogy
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simultaneously a really good idea because it helps you feel like you are capable of doing the job, and a really bad idea, because it analogy is governor ship to the president in a who lly inappropriate way. and to see the lack of appropriate analogy is in lack of personnel. they appoint about 700 positions over a four-year term in governorship. and they keep about 15,000 resumes on hand. gather 15,000they resumes and process them. the president of the united states, the candidate selected to be president-elect, will receive at least 15,000 nominations in the first 24 hours. by the time they walk into the by the time trump walks into the presidency, they will have at least 300,000 resumes.
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a 90u are trying to hit mile-per-hour fastball, you have to be able to hit a 1200 mile-per-hour fastball to go up to the major-league team. legs, if youajor can throw 100 miles per hour, not 1200 miles per hour, that you are the savior of the world series team. that is the difference. the presidency, first and foremost, in carrying out constitutional and partisan responsibilities to lead the -- ify, is a gargantuan he is coming from a aaa ball club, he is going to the team that represents the milky way in .he galaxy league so let's talk about those for a second. what are the numbers? a couple things about partisanship. just to share with you about
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personnel and share with you just as citizens a citizen. personnel is all about the constitution and governing america. if you do not have people in place, you cannot govern. important, personnel is standing up the american government. second thing, personnel is the place where partisanship and bipartisanship come in to meet each other. it is an entirely partisan affair to stand up the american government after an election. what elections are for, to change the course of government. reasonable to have partisan appointments made by the president of the united states, who is, after all, a partisan leader. but it is also the place where
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americans of both parties believe that bipartisanship should reign. washington as a community of sharks and jets, for those of you that remember the 1960's. [laughter] and jets, inarks 2012, passed a bipartisan law to revamp the partisan personal process and turn 160 positions over from the senate confirmation process into the entirely partisan presidential process. and that effort was led by the majority leader in the senate and the minority leader in the senate working in a bipartisan way. is a key note of the personnel process. if you are looking for a silver lining, personnel is the place
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where bipartisanship reigns. let's talk about numbers. there is a book that is published called because it's cover is plum and also because these are jobs that are thought in some way to be plum. the support and policy positions of the got of the united states and they're often talked about as the positions the president is responsible for. they're actually the positions that are not in the civil was system. not technically, anyway. there are about 8,000 positions listed in the plum book. whoever er varies from it is you're talking to and whatever plum book you're looking at. so there's a large number of seemly non-civil service position. about 4,000 are what's called the senior e

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