tv Washington Journal Philip Joyce Discusses Running Government Like a... CSPAN January 8, 2017 8:36am-9:09am EST
of development and innovation, sold the first airplane to the navy right here in san diego in 1911. what is now naval air station north island is the birthplace of naval aviation. as a former navy fighter pilot, it's a little bit of our mecca. we have our heritage that comes right back here to san diego. travel to san diego, california this weekend and check out all of our locations in the city's tour online at any .ime at c-span.org/citytour we look at san diego and its history is the birthplace of naval aviation. we hope you tune in. philip joyce's senior associate dean and public policy professor at the university of maryland. thank you for being with us.
we appreciate it. campaign,ng the donald trump says he is going to run the country the way he has been running his very successful businesses in you are calling that in part, a myth of business versus government, two very different entities. explain. the first place, it's important to understand that the idea that someone runs the government is a little bit extreme in itself. people manage the government, people leave the governments, but no signal person runs the government. when you look at president-elect trump and what he has done in business, the people who have looked at the way he has managed his business, a couple of things they .2. what is that his management style is relatively autocratic, and the second is he pays a lot of attention to detail. the guest you just had on talking about his tweets is a good example of that. he is not going to be able to get anything done by himself being the president
atolves having a compromise having to deal with lots of different constituencies. it's not a command and control kind of situation. what's going to make the biggest difference, frankly, are the people that he appoints to the various cabinet offices and other offices, because they are the people in the end who are going to make the biggest difference in terms of the way the government is managed and led. host: you wrote about this in "the art of the deal," one of his early exchanges and governments dealing with what he calls the dysfunction in new york city, trying to get ice skating rink built, caught up in the bureaucracy. he did it under budget and on time, can we apply that lesson from the 1980's to washington? guest: i certainly think there are lessons from business that can be transferred to government. the problem is i'm sure what he did in that process was he dealt
with all of the different people , the bureaucracy, the city council, mayor, in order to get that done. i certainly think that there are probably ways you can do that also for issues that deal with the federal government. but when we are talking about things like immigration reform or health care reform or education policy, these are very complicated things. welldon't respond very necessarily to what i would call retail politics. host: monday remind you what he said at the first presidential debate, donald trump talking about this very issue. [video clip] donald trump: you to manage of the laws of the nation. i'm running a company. my obligation right now is to do well for myself, my family, my employees, for my companies. and that is what i do. when she doesn't say is that tens of thousands of people that are unbelievably happy, and that love me.
i will give you an example. we are just opening up uncovering avenue, right next to the white house, so if i don't get there one way, i'm going to get to pennsylvania avenue another. but we are opening the old post office, under budget, ahead of schedule, soon to tremendous money. on the year ahead of schedule. and that is what this country should be doing. and they cost two and three and four times what they are supposed to cost. we buy products for the military and they come in at costs that are so far above what they were supposed to be because we don't have people to know what they are doing. when we look at the budget, the budget is bad to a large extent because we have people that have no idea as to what to do and how to buy. trump international is way under budget and way ahead of schedule. and we should be able to do that for our country. september 26, the first debate. "washington post," reporting
returning the hotel and every avenue, it's millions of dollars in unpaid bills to the electrical contractors who are working 24/7 to complete hotels on time. guest: i believe he says he operates in his business for the interest of his shareholders. but the shareholders for the united states are all the citizens group so you can operate united states government the way you operate your business. the united states government is the constituency of everyone. we can't, for example, decide it is not efficient for the postal service to deliver mail to people who are in far-flung, rural areas, that means they shouldn't do it. you decide the medicare shouldn't cover people just because they are expensive to cover. when he talks about the budget and he talks about problems with the budget, we need to understand that an awful lot of money that we spend our on
things like medicare and social security and defense. they are not amenable to the kind of things he is talking about. host: he is making history as the first president who has never held elective office, and never run a military organization or government entity. guest: yes. when you look back, it's not that he is the first one ever to come into government who has that kind of experience. when you look at governors, for example, governor warner in virginia came in with a business background. ,overnor daniels in indiana mayor bloomberg in new york. they were all successful in what they did. you are right that we haven't had a lot of presidents who have that kind of profile. in fact, if we look back over history, i think the two presidents in the 20th century who were the closest analogs, they came in with mostly business act as opposed to some
other backgrounds were warren harding and herbert hoover. these are not two of our most successful presidents. in the case of the hartigan administration, they were business related scandals in that administration involving conflict of interest. hoover,ase of president he essentially fiddled while the country burned during the great depression. that was mostly because he believed in the ability of business to bring us out of the depression, not in what was needed to happen, which was government action. host: a couple of tweets, this from richard who says trump will not be able file bankruptcy four times in his job, and another tweet from jan saying save money because he doesn't pay people, he is being sued. guest: it is true that when the federal government does something, the people who do those things for the federal government do expect to be paid. and they will be paid.
in terms of declaring bankruptcy, let's be honest. the federal government already and the4 trillion debt policies that president-elect trump has abdicated, in particular, his tax policies, some of the estimates are that those policies would add up to $5 trillion to the debt unless there are offsetting spending cuts. it does not look like the country is going to become less bankrupt under president-elect trump. host: in a piece that you wrote for "governing magazine," you quote woodrow wilson in 1887, long before he became president in 1912. what did you learn from his writings? guest: woodrow wilson wrote what is considered to be the founding article on the discipline republican administration. he was a progressive, and his argument was that there was, in
effect, a science of administration that could be applied to any setting. , the fieldcifically and administration is a field of business. we canessentially saying apply business principles to government. when he was basically arguing that the efficient solution is the best solution. we do not necessarily want government to only do what is efficient. we want government to protect individual rights, we want government to protect the rights of minorities. that is not necessarily always the most efficient thing. host: posted december 14 i are guest, professor philip joyce from university of maryland, the enduring myth the government should be run like a business, the election of donald trump should remind us again about the vast differences between managing a company and running a government. let's get your calls and comments.
john from johnstown, pennsylvania. good morning. democrats line. caller: good morning. the frontline on pbs did an exposé on mr. trump, and they drove hisat -- i just casino businesses into $3 billion in debt. just to show you how the banks worked it out three the gave him $450,000 a month to use his name, so basically, the banks own the trunk name, and his penalty was $450,000 a month for how about that for a deal? host: thank you. we'll get a response. guest: yes, i think that when we think about president-elect trump in the way he runs his businesses, this is exactly the point that i'm making, that not that a successful business be a goodcould not president, or operate the
government, manage the government well, it's that the kinds of things that one does as a businessperson do not necessarily translate into success in government. on thehe next caller republican line, sam from dell toner, florida. good morning. thank you for taking my call. excited.y i'm really excited about mr. trump, of course is a businessman and he knows inside, outside job of the government for many, many years. he knows what he says, what he does. whether he is tweeting or calling or whatever, i really have got a lot of respect for him. obviously, the media doesn't like him because to me, it looks like mr. obama would be calling the camera times or, the new york times.
but mr. trump does it himself. i do have lots of respect for him. , and he blowsg graham, -- nancy pelosi or lindsey graham, they , they haveshamed really damaged this country too far. i do appreciate it for listing my comments. host: thank you for the call. guest: i think it is important to understand that ultimately, the success of a given president is mostly tied up not in what the president does, but first the ability of the president to be able to negotiate and compromise with other people, for example, the united states congress. but also, what happens out there
in the cabinet departments. we would, for example, the people that president-elect trump is nominating for cabinet positions. most of those people are not people who have had experience in government. in fact, i can only find three of the 17 who i would say have government executive experience read the rest of them are current members of congress, six of them are business executives, a couple of them are retired generals. those people might be able to be successful, it is going to depend on the people that are both nominated for the secondary political positions and a lot of those cabinet departments, and also, people who work for them. and friendly, it's going to depend on their ability to get career civil service to be able to support them and be able to help them in what they do. i think a lot of those people are going to have a steep learning curve. it may very well be -- it may he understandsat
the government, but he's got people working for him to understand the government and the way government works, and again, i think some of those people are going to find that government does not work like business does. host: our guest earned his master's at syracuse university and studied at penn state, he spent some time on capitol hill and in illinois doing what? guest: the first four half years working for the state budget office, that was back when they had a budget. they went an entire year without a budget, friendly comments relevant to this particular discussion because it was the unwillingness of the legislature and governor rauner, who is somebody who came in with solely business experience to be able to compromise and work out a budget. and i spent 2.5 years working in the state corrections to permit. host: -- corrections department. host: he is the author of a number of books.
a question from one of our viewers. what is success in government? guest: i would define success in government management as the ability to efficiently and effectively carry out the policies that we, as a country, have decided that we want to pursue. i think too often, success in government is defined, or people define lack of success in government on the basis of the fact they don't agree with something that the government has chosen to do. but that is something that occurs as a result of the political process. if you all think government should be subsidizing amtrak or you know that government should the arts or the humanities are you think the defense budget is too vague, the fact that you don't agree with that doesn't necessarily mean the government doesn't work or government is being done badly. but once we decided to do those
things, i think it's important for us to do them in the interest of the entire public. and frankly, to do them in a cost-effective way. to me, that would be my definition of good government. incentives to government managers have to cut costs? exactly none. now we sit at a $20 trillion debt. guest: in the first place, the things that are amenable to government managers cutting costs are not a very large contributor to that $20 trillion debt. partebt is driven in large by the generosity of entitlement programs such as medicare, medicaid, social security, to the extent that we are talking about the defense of domestic discretionary spending. i think the incentives that are out there are largely driven by the fact that in the current
state of things, those programs are actually growing more slowly than inflation. i think there are incentives for people to cut costs, because in order to be able to do the same things, this would be less money available to do them. host: we will show the audience specifically about what you wrote about donald trump ring businessman and running the business -- running the government like a business, you wrote measuring the private sector and government performance quote private sector performance is measured by profitability, while performance measurement of government needs to focus on the achievement outcomes. he went on to say government is about this thing called the public interest. there is no such animal in the private sector. host: is good at lindenbaum,
texas. good morning. independent line. are you with us? turn the volume down. we are going to get that echo otherwise. what i want to ask is, entitlements,g let me tell him about entitlements. a medicare receiving citizen, which i am, $248 a month taking out of my social security. social security i have worked since age 18, i am now 82 years old. i stopped working at 72 years old. so don't call them entitlements, because we paid for them, and are still paying for them. host: philip joyce. guest: the thing that makes
something in entitlements, and i would include social security, medicare, medicaid, and lots of other programs out there are the fact that the governments defines my legislation that there are particular people who are eligible to receive these services, and as long as you are in that category, you receive those funds. i certainly agree with the caller that a portion of those entitlements, such as medicare are funded by the taxes that are paid my individuals. but that does not completely finance all of these costs. resulted inics have more and more people being moved into that category, of people who are eligible for those services, what we have ended up with is a situation where the
long run, both because of the number of people and also because of the cost of health care, those programs are going to become less and less affordable. host: let's go to tim in fayetteville, north carolina on the independent line. good morning. caller: good morning. thanks for taking my call. i was more of the opinion run the government like a business, if you study history, from the establishment of this country, it was taken from natural resources from the land and rulers, whoever was in crown of the time. onto today. you look now that resources are still being taken from the country, and also it's become global.
havew, when people problems like china and thailand where things are made, it's because here, slavery was abolished, so cheap labor or free labor was sent abroad. in the cheap labor is done over there from the cost of little to bring over here for a price. you have the lobbyists and privatization, that also plays a factor as well. scratch my back and i scratch your back type of thing. tim, thank you. guest: i guess i don't think it is a fact that the way government or government organizations are operated are similar or the same to the way private firms are operated. and the way the resources come for the operation of the federal government, for example, is
obviously through taxes. then apeople and representative governments, our congress, and our president decide how those resources are going to be allocated. had to the point that steve , the quote that steve had read earlier about the difference between business and government, it's not just the government doesn't have profit as a bottom line, is that government has many bottom lines. government wants people to be better educated. it wants them to be healthier. it wants info structure to be maintained. for people to be able to be safe. and those things are being traded off against each other in the budget process. and frankly, i would rather focus, rather than saying someone who is coming in from the private sector, because they have private sector experience can make government operate better, i would rather focus on what those things are that are
preventing the government from operating better. i would put at the top of that list the fact that the congress and the president can't manage to pass budgets on time. 21y four times in the last years and we had a proration bills that have been passed before the start of the fiscal year. is not a "wind and problem -- a self-inflicted wound. host: our guest is professor philip joyce. private sector performance is measured by profitability while performance measurement and government needs to focus on the achievement of the outcomes. john from miami, republican line. you are next. caller: thank you. can you hear me? host: sure can. good morning, john. caller: there are some things i'm very confused about. i'm not a very educated man. i haven't served in any government vastly -- any government capacity. i don't understand is why they
beat up on donald trump so much because he is a man that stuck his neck out for the united states, because he loved it and he wanted to say that. -- save it. he is a businessman, and maybe if the government was run by a -- run like government. the best attorneys, the best lawyers, the bust everything. yet we are $20 trillion in debt and we are still being attacked by foreign countries and it doesn't seem to be any end to it. we voted for donald trump hoping that he would be able to change this, and make this country run like a business so we would not be in debt. maybe that is my question. it is important to understand why we are in debt.
the 20 trillion dollar figure is , figure that is often used which is the gross federal debt. where did that come from? it comes from is year after year at a year taxing people lower level than we have decided to spend an what is it that we are spending money on? 80% of what we spend money on is , socialin medicare security, medicaid, the defense budget. these are things that have broad support. the other 20% we are talking the department of homeland security, the state department, etc.. if we want to reduce the debt there is only two ways to do it. one way is that we could raise taxes. we could cut back on spending. when we are talking about cutting back on spending we
would have to cut back on ares i am talking about, because that is where the money is. is talkinglect trump about cutting taxes. he is not talking about cutting those programs. heremains to be seen how could make good on any problems to reduce the debt when he is cutting taxes and he is not touching those areas in the budget where the money is. the: memphis, tennessee on republicans line, dan. caller: i'm going to break it down. the union was the only thing holding the jobs. the big businesses took over. businessman cannot run this country like a business. thank you. guest: i couldn't agree more. host: what did you learn in
putting together your essay? his cabinet picks, his administration as an approach to generate 20th? guest: one thing i learned is that this is not a new argument. the argument that government can be run like a business. often we think that it must be conservatives who make create this who idea that government should be run like a business, and liberals are against it. a conservative argument against running an argument like a business, government is not created to be efficient. government is created to protect individual rights. the founders when they set up the country, they didn't set up the country to make it easy to make things happen. they wanted to make it difficult to do things. and to not have to much power
concentrated in any one set of hands. it is important for us to keep that in mind. in terms of advice i would guess, my advice would simply be that you have to understand the context in which you are operating. the government context is different than the business context. it is very important that you pay a lot of attention, not to just to who is in the white house, not just to who is in the cabinet, but also those lower-level cabinet officials, in the careertise bureaucracy. your ability to get things done is dependent on your ability to harness all of the sort of levers of government. an unwieldy thing, it is like turning a battleship. you have to make sure that you are able to access everything that you need in order to try to get that done.
dr. philip joyce, thank you for being with us. we appreciate it. reminder, live coverage of the presidential inauguration getting under way on friday, generate 20 to our coverage will be all day from 7:00, the ceremony, the parade, and the walls. we hope you to in. -- we hope you tune in. north korea announcing it is moving ahead with its plan for a new rear missile. what does that mean to the u.s. and allies? robert gallucci will be here to talk about that. about all oflking that is washington journal continues. later we will turn our attention to the wall in mexico he made for u.s. taxpayers.
washington journal for january 8, we are back in a moment. >> tonight on afterwords, journalists on ukraine's past and present amidst ongoing regional conflict as told through the stories of the ukrainian people in her book black square. alexandererviewed by cooley, professor and director of the harriman institute. when your system of government, when your state disappears or reformulated, that often leaves the space of chaos. so ordinary people, especially people who don't have a lot of money, people who are in
provincial areas, that can lead to upheaval and stress in the own lives. >> tonight at 9:00 eastern on book tv. go to book tv.org for the complete weekend schedule. harding became president ford as director of the bureau of insurance but then became wrapped into the much bigger -- bureau and phillips became director of the veterans bureau, which is now the v.a.. stevens, professor from the university of pennsylvania discusses her book, a time of schedule. -- a time of scandal. know we had looked at this before. it was a big scandal in the 1920's.
at the time of veterans bureau scandal, which charles ford was the center was equally important. this man had come down in history as a cook. i got intrigued by this. ontonight at eight eastern q&a. washington journal continues. host: welcome robert gallucci, currently a distinguished professor at georgetown university. take you for being with us. let me share with you and opinion piece from former defense secretary william perry confronting north korea, talk first and get help later.