tv Washington Journal News Headlines and Viewer Calls CSPAN March 14, 2017 7:00am-8:01am EDT
will discuss proposals to sell health insurance across state lines. later, npr correspondent on the trump administration's approach to combating isis and the whole ♪ good morning. it is tuesday, march 14, 2017. a wet and icy morning due to the icy weather. because of the storm, the house will not be in session while the senate is scheduled to convene at 2:00 p.m. we will be here with you for the next three hours. reactions to the congressional budget office report. congress's-- predicted yesterday the number --people would increase while cutting over 300 million from the federal deficit.
we want to hear your reaction. you can give us a call this morning. you can catch up with us on social media. a very good tuesday morning. here is how the congressional budget office report played out in a few headlines starting on the liberal side of the ledger. post."ffington "slate" magazine -- two "salon" -- to "salon".
some republican sites, they are reporting. from the blaze quoting newt gingrich. us.ave that report with we are going to go through some of the details. we want to hear from you as we go through those plans and the details of the budget scoring. the phone lines again. here's some of the topline numbers from the cbo report. why 2018, 14 million more people would be uninsured under the republican plan than under current law.
that jumps up to 24 million by 2026. the republican plan would create $1.2 trillion decrease in direct spending. it would also mean 883 million -- billion in revenues over 10 years. premiums before 2020, the average premium would .e 15% to 20% higher by 2026, the average mediums would be about 10% lower than under current law. a lot there, but as jeff duncan yesterday. he says lots of quotes and nuggets that all sides of the debate could use. we want to hear from you. it is your turn to react to that
cbo report. michelle is up first in upper marlboro, maryland. caller: good morning. when i heard the report, it is a sad thing, but it is not anything we don't expect from republicans. elections have consequences and i don't sympathize with the 24 million that will lose their health coverage because they voted against obamacare. it was laid in racism. trump,y that voted for they were all talking about how under obamacare they got coverage, they got coverage for all of their issues related to working in the minds -- mines. the opioid addiction was addressed under the obamacare. that county voted against the democrats and voted for trump.
and he clearly ran on the platform of repealing obamacare. it is laced in racism, so i really don't sympathize with the 24 million that will lose. elections have consequences and they voted against obama. he was a good man who tried to help people, but he was a black man. the 24 million will have to live with the results of their vote. host: why do you think racism there? show,: last night on the they asked if you voted for trump, and they could not give any reason for voting for trump, other than he promised to bring jobs.he coal they did not give him any credit for helping them get the coverage they want -- needed.
now they will not be able to sue for black lung. they will not be able to get redress in the courts for their health issues. what else is it? why would you vote against the democratic party that gave you health care? that promised to address the issues of the loss of jobs in west virginia? you have to look at it and say, what else but racism? host: michelle this morning talking about the 24 million people that are projected -- 24 million less insured that are projected under the cbo score. sort of a timeline of how those numbers would work out. the "usa today" story talked about it. the uninsured people would come from consumers deciding not to buy insurance because they would not have to pay a penalty for failing to do so, according to the cbo.
people who are covered under medicaid would lose their insurance. the number of uninsured would rise dramatically, as a replacement plan phases out the obamacare expansion. the report saying in 2026, the estimated at 2 million people that would be uninsured compared to 28 million who would like insurance that year under the current law. most of the major paper spending down what is in the cbo report. we want to hear your reactions. wayne, pennsylvania, good morning. caller: good morning and thank you for my call. theresting how he outlined reduction in cost of insurance for americans. if you take 24 million off the
your premiums are going to be reduced because there is no risk to the insurance companies. [indiscernible] the eligibility requirement are for the new insurance bill that he is introducing is very if there areause eligibility requirements, what that means is the insurance company is transferring the cost to the consumer. meansative activities executives can have higher means theand it also insurance commissioners in each , legislative requirements could be stricken.
you don't know that. his bill is nefarious, insidious at best. he is allowing these insurance companies to stranglehold the consumer, so that they cannot have much of a choice when they talk about a lower-cost premium theye coverages, because just give you $4000 for the get you to spend your $2500 tax credit, what do you have? host: the congressional budget office scoring came out yesterday, president trump was having his first cabinet meeting at the white house. health and human services secretary tom price came out to talk to reporters about the scoring. some of his disagreements with the cbo and their reports.
>> they ignored completely the other legislative activities that would will be -- that we would be putting into place to make sure we have insurance market that works. we disagree with the report. we believe our plan will cover more individuals and give them the choice that they want with the coverage they want, not that the government forces them to buy. host: if you want to watch that price, you canm go to c-span.org. want to hear your reaction this morning to this cbo scoring that is shaking up the health care debate. gerald in massachusetts its next. democrat -- is next. democrat. go ahead. caller: we have romney
care. we have a republican governor he hasn't touched it. it is doing good here in massachusetts. i would like it for -- i will like for it to work great. repugnance -- i think they all should of took it if they cared about their people . i am not trying to bash anyone. we appreciate it here in massachusetts. the are a lot of people around the united states -- there are a lot of people around the united states who appreciates obamacare. i would rather call it the aca.
i appreciate what president obama has done, and i believe massachusetts does everyone. every like everyone in one of the 50 states to have it also. we knew they were try to knock it down all weekend long, the cbo report. they were trying to premeditate the damage. massachusetts. sandy beach on twitter rights -- writes -- mary is in beech grove. good morning. sister in a a convent here in indiana. again, it does look like there
are two different approaches to helping the poor and vulnerable, , he wouldhristians have been taught about the gospels that the poor and vulnerable, we must help them. there are two ways. the repugnance say economic -- the republicans would say economic prosperity. the democratic view is we cannot wait for prosperity and we cannot have the poor suffering anymore -- we need to help them at all times. the nuns on the bus went and talked to paul ryan. his point of view to us was, well the churches can help the poor. the poor should be helped with each other. it is not the governments -- government's business to help the poor. well, the point of view of thattianity and of us is
we are going to be judged on how kind we are to everyone, both in speech and indeed -- in deed. we don't want to see the poor disadvantaged any more than they already are. the poor are poor in all kinds of ways. they should not be an object of political -- we should be looking at how can we lift them up, what can be done? host: did you personally meet with speaker ryan? caller: i met with the people who did. host: can you explain what the nuns on the bus are. stephanie campbell, it on a busp that got that went from washington, dc, to the state capitals, all the way from minnesota, wisconsin, illinois, came back through indiana and over to ohio.
they met with congressman. they went to every senator, and they talked about their budgets slash the budgets that cause harm. the good things that have been put in place. we work together as a partnership. we need both federal dollars, faith dollars, church dollars. i reviewed a book called, "the church has left the building." .t was written by an orthodox there are 60,000 churches in north america. the average size is 100 people. they no longer have staff. to rely on the religious sector is misguided. we are going to have to do this together without all of this waste of money of bickering. the port need is right now in every way.
-- the poor need us right now in every way. host: i appreciate your thoughts. go ahead. caller: we are not talking in a very good dialogue about looking at the situation after the poor, the sick and even the insecure very rich people. what are they supposed to be doing with their money. it isn't their money. god gives us gifts and on to lift up the common good and to look out for each other. i will like to see the dialogue shift to how can we all help? -- i would like to see the dialogue shift to how can we all help. there is joy in lifting everybody up. one more comment and we work with the poor -- comment. we work with the poor all the time and they are poor and every way. -- in every way. to blame the poor is to blame
the victim. a lot of times, it is circumstances, but it is poor choice. not making good decisions, not able to handle money. we need to look out. there is very skillful ways. host: i appreciative call. a lot of people wanting to get in sister mary from indiana. a line for republicans, good morning. caller: thank you for taking my call. they were all worried about the cbo scoring of the new proposed health-care. when they scored it before, they scored it incorrectly and they revised it later, and they were off by 50% of how many people were covered. they were off millions of dollars. also, i don't understand why the republicans played into the hands and said, said of just repealing it, they were like, we
have to replace it we had health care before obamacare. health insurance would still be around. you don't trust the cbo scoring? caller: before they revised last time, they put out a report and a -- and they got obamacare to past -- to pass. then they revised it later. the coverage amount is half of what they said they scored to be. host: here are some of the numbers from the editorial of "the wall street journal." there are reasons to doubt the cbo fortune-telling.
next year, for the first time in our adult life, we will not have insurance, not being able to afford it under the current conditions. me thaty does concern people, no matter how many , will be losing their insurance because of our government, our congressman who who we send toen washington to represent us and our concerns. this is a choice that has been made. i have made numerous calls to my congressman and senator. host: why do you say unheard? no.er:
i get a form letter in the mail. [no audio] i know what is going on. i don't get any other response other than a form letter. my other concern is the tax break that repealing this is going to give a lot of folks who have been very blessed to have made a lot of money. level --and the brits the brits level people are going to get a consumable tax break. it is hurting the poor people. it is helping those who already have income. trumps not what president
said that he was going to do. host: jodey agrees with you on twitter. dan is waiting. new enterprise, pennsylvania. good morning. caller: i just have a very short statement. phrasesthat two key need to be reintroduced into our daily vernacular. work requirement and personal responsibility. if we could have that -- if we could at that to the criteria for government assistance to the able-bodied, i would not have
such a problem with our bloated bureaucratic government that we have. thank you very much. host: for more visual learners, here are a few charts on the front pages of a couple of our analysiss showing the from the cbo and their predictions of uninsured in the marketplace. the actual number of uninsured from 2001 to 2016 is on the left side, tipping up to 50 million at its highest point, dropping after the affordable care act went into effect in 2016. under the affordable care act, if that were allowed to continue, it would be 28 million by 2026. 52 million under the republican plan. here's the same information in a bar chart. the is the front page of
"washington times: -- washington times." the red bars under the house republican plan. nancy pelosi came out yesterday to talk about her concerns about meanshis cbo projection for americans, and how many have access to insurance. >> insurance coverage is immoral, in terms of giving money to the rich at the expense of working families. it is indecent and wrong. some of them are saying, discrediting the cbo and glorifying pushing 24 million people off of coverage. i hope they will pull the bill. it is the only decent thing to do. numbers are not important --
numbers are important. they see the numbers and should see how that transfers into people's lives. how can they look their constituents in the eye when they say to them, 24 million of you will no longer have coverage? paul ryan put out a statement yesterday after the cbo issued it scoring. it reads -- that is what speaker ryan wrote. his statement on -- in its
entirety. we want to hear your thoughts. you can reach us over twitter, facebook or give us a call. carlos is an independent in arkansas. caller: hello. i am really glad about c-span. i watch you every morning. i am a retired lutheran minister. i was inspired to call this morning by sister mary. funny that kind of my lutheran -- that a lutheran was inspired by catholic. we are on one page about this. we really believe it requires a shift in attitude. possible.
i think president trump really would like to ensure everybody .- insure everybody i think he would like to call it trumpcare. it is possible if we shift our attitude and see that this is about people, rather than about maintaining the military-industrial complex in some incredible fashion. it is really possible for us as a nation to pull together, even in the middle of all of this chaos. we can care enough about people to do the right thing and take care of the people of america. this is a wonderful country. my super great-grandfather was a captain in george washington's
army. i mean, i care about this country. all of the generations of my family care about this country. we need to stop being polarized about whether or not people are going to be taken care of. we need to do what we need to do in order to really care for one another, and really become a great country. really become a great country. so i am glad to have this opportunity to say this. i really do appreciate c-span very much. richard is in pensacola, florida. caller: thank you for taking my call. this becomes so political, and i wish you would throw up a chart that shows that are still over
20 million who do not have health insurance. i would also like for you to acknowledge that this plan is an out in its entirety. cbo has been wrong -- the last time they wrong, they were off by 50%. people have to quit looking at the left-wing blog sites. when this goes into effect, you are going to have across state lines. cbo did not report that. you need to have people talking 1952.the act of it needs to be rescinded. it gives health insurers immunity from antitrust legislation. how can you introduce competition in the market if you have -- if the heads of these insurers can collude on prices without penalty? they can under that act.
think you very much. -- thank you very much. host: stick around because at 8:30 we are going to be joined by the former president of the american academy of actuaries. was introduced last week, the part where president trump has talked about adding rid of the lines around the states. they are talking about doing that in a separate step. we are going to be focusing on that at 8:30. we may answer some of your questions. in arizona, a line for democrats. caller: how're you? host: doing well. host: we need to define some terms because when republicans use the term, flex ability -- flexibility," it
means people will be of the choose insurance policies that don't cover them. they will be up to get cheap insurance that it won't cover .hat they need covered when they use access, it means it will be available but you will not be able to afford it. they are not being honest and how they are presenting this. as far as the cbo mistakes of the past, you have to allow for the fact that 16 states are not take advantage of it and there was so much people can an insurance company propaganda against the aca, that it prevented people -- the important thing about the eca is that it is a desk the aca is that it is an interlocking piece of legislation that paid for itself with a tax on medical quit meant.
paid -- medical equipment. this thing doesn't pay for itself at all. economics --who do reagan voodoo economics. their estimate on the .merican health care act in 2018, 14 million more people would be uninsured under the american health care act that under the current law. that rises to 24 million by 2026. the repugnant bill would create decrease in direct spending -- the republican bill would create increase in direct spending. $337ned, that is about billion decrease and federal
deficit over 10 years. before 2020, average premiums would go up 15% to 20% perhaps that under current law. by 2026, average premiums would be about 10% lower than under current law. that is the cbo report they came out yesterday. legislative branch agency -- not the only report they came up yesterday when it comes to this health care law. several news sites pointing to a white house analysis they came out of the office of management and budget yesterday. that analysis shows an even steeper coverage loss than the projections by the congressional budget office. the executive branch announced 26 million people would lose coverage over the next decade.
the white house officials that were consulted about this late monday night disputed that this document is an analysis of the bills coverage affect. they say it is a predict -- it -- that is another report you may see floating around. there is the congressional is an office report and then this report out of the omd. barbara, good morning. caller: i would like to address the none -- the nun who has called in. i cannot hear you. host: i am listening to you. becausei hope that she with the gospel says. jesus was the son of god himself. the bible tells us he had no
place to even lay his head. no home he could call his own. why don't they start over at the vatican. all of that wealth and splendor. if they would get rid of that and give all of that wealth to the poor and the needy, and the pope would live as our lord jesus christ lived, that would help a lot of people. why don't they start their -- there? host: we will like to stick to the health-care debate in this country -- we would like to stick to the health-care debate in this country.
bert is in rhode island. good morning. caller: good morning. thanks for c-span. that theto point out senate appointed a republican to head the cbo 2015. you can look that up. i want to tell america that health care for profit is no model that shows that there were -- for profit, there is no model that shows that that works. countries have a national health did i'm sorry but under the republican plan, you .ie -- system i am sorry but under the republican plan, you die. promised the founding farmers -- founding fathers, life in the pursuit of
happiness. the rich have already one -- won. class warfare is over. they are beating up on us. i hear this on npr, mexico. the only people of a lower minimum wage than us. please, health care for all makes sense. employees, employers do not have to come up with paying for your health care. you don't when you lose your job lose your health care. you live healthily into your older ages. please -- that is why medicare was made. wake up. thank you. have a good day. host: charlson, south carolina. independent -- charleston, south carolina.
independent. caller: one quick thing to say. the statement by the individual about the vatican. that is a subject for another day. people right here in south --olina, stickley republican south carolina vote stickley republican. if you are poor, you make less than $75,000 year, you are on your own. people have got to realize that. that is why i am independent. neither party is want to save you. if you're are a poor person, you are in the trouble -- neither party is going to save you. if you are a poor person, you are in trouble.
a couple of stories. the white house saying yesterday that president trump was referring to a broader surveillance issue when he accused obama of a wiretapping the phones at trump tower last year as the department of justice asked for more time. capitol hill lawmakers had given the department of justice a monday deadline to provide any evidence to back up president trump's charges. the administration said it had asked for more time to review the request. the house intelligence committee will be holding its first of the hearing on russian interference in last year's election. that is scheduled for next week for march 20. one story that is making news today is controversial. -- on his of iowa controversial tweet. the republican tweeted on sunday
as suggestion that most of them children are preventing our civilization from being restored. the tweet was intended as to geert wilders. if you want to read that story, that is an "usa today." we want to hear from you as we are going over that cbo report. monroe, new york. a republican. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. my first comment comment many people have already mentioned it. -- my first comment, many people have already mentioned it.
the cbo was off by 50% on obamacare. they are talking about 24 million being thrown off health care. i don't see this planet throwing anybody off. all they are doing -- i don't see this plan throwing anybody off. all they are doing is giving them a choice. if you listen to any of the comments from the victims of this health care -- obamacare is, you know. ima 62-year-old retired mail -- i am a 62-year-old retired male. i have to buy insurance that covers maternity coverage for myself. so many people today with the high premiums are not eating healthy because they need the money. deductibles are so high that
they would be in a catastrophic position, and so many people are losing their homes. what is wrong with americans having a choice? why is it a government's position to demand that you buy a product that only they can approve? that is my question. host: go ahead. caller: in a free society, i thought you were allowed to choose what you wanted. host: on the first part of your comment, the track record of the congressional office, there was something that sean spicer talked about yesterday. here is a little bit. >> let's look at the city of projection. there projection on obamacare, input 16, it would have 24 million people on it. the actual figure is 10.4 million. that is have the number of .eople it predicted
the only point is to make sure that people understand, if you're looking to get an accurate prediction, the cbo was off by half last time. this is not about my belief in the cbo is, the last time they did this they were off. the number keeps declining. the question and needs to be asked guess the question that needs to be asked is if you look at the number tonight, you have to look through the scope of whether it that number is. it was bad for the economy. you can glean that. as far as their numbers go, the number of people they predicted back then would be covered now, they were off by more than half. aheadthat comes to pass " walksacare, "usa today us through it.
the bill goes to the house rules committee, followed by a houseboat as soon as next week a e-house vote as soon -- house vote as soon as next week. we are talking about the cbo report. the congressional budget office, the nonpartisan office here, they are -- office here, their scoring. a lower deficit over 10 years under this report can plan. we want to hear what you have to say. good morning. caller: good morning. reagan was wrong. he was bad wrong. i think he was the worst president ever. policies have resulted in the trickling down of the american middle class. it has resulted in wealth
inequality to a point where wages are so low, that we now frequently use the term "the working poor." back to the previous caller. what he doesn't want to pay for , i don't want to have to pay for prostate care. i'm a woman. that is silly. americans don't need health insurance. we need health care. if you put a .75% tax on everybody that everybody could get on a national healthcare system, like medicaid, medicare. we would have health care, not health insurance. thank you. host: randy is waiting in wisconsin. the land for republicans -- the line for republicans.
caller: the cbo does not finish is 24 in their report million people are going to be losing their health care because they will be going to get their own health care. they are going to get off of the affordable care. -- before thet care act, to affect -- if you had an accident, if you could pay, if you couldn't pay, they just wrote it off. people will be able to go and buy their health care which the cbo doesn't say across state lines. cbo is way off. the way they phrased this is nothing more than to stir it all up.
we are going to be talking about the state lines at about 8:30 this morning. specifically focus on that which republicans have said they are going to include a next up in their health care overall -- a next step in the health care overall. christie, good morning. caller: i am calling to make some comments about working in the health care field. i have been on both sides. my husband become disabled. i did two -- i did too. i don't think people are realizing that you have a gap between medicaid -- you have to have a very low income to qualify for medicaid, even for the obamacare plan. what they don't understand with this new bill is with such little subsidies, people are not
going to have the income to go out and purchase insurance, whether it is across state lines or whatever. that is want to leave a lot of people without any coverage. yes, you can go to the emergency room, and no, they don't write those bills off. he will end up losing their homes and anything else, being sued by these hospitals. once they go to the emergency room, what are they going to do when the prescription is written? a lot of people are running into problems today. even patients that are on medicare. i had patients that were patients of mine they could not afford their prescriptions. , ande had elderly patients i would try to get free prescriptions that the drug reps would leave me to help these patients. i have had elderly patients on
medicare that if i didn't have free samples from the pharmaceutical reps to give them, they would go without their prescriptions because they had to eat. the republican party is supposed to be based upon family values, and you are going to tell people, we are going to cut taxes for the rich, because the poor cannot afford insurance so we are going to let them die or let them get so sick to go to the emergency room, and they have to be admitted. that is the only way they are going to get their medications. host: anthony in maryland. a democrat. good morning. caller: my point is pretty much the same as everyone else. the guy called and says he thought this was a country of choice. it is and most people make the choice to go to the emergency room when they have no insurance. that still gets passed on.
it is not written off. that is why before there was obamacare, rates were still going up. people would go to the emergency room, and those who did have insurance, the rates went up the cousin was passed off to you -- went up, the rates was passed on to you. somebody is still going to have to pay that bill. the cbo says there was a savings of 900 million over 10 years -- $900 million over 10 years. we can still save that amount of money. we send money over to israel to blow up things. if you don't want health care, then don't show up at the emergency room to put that burden on the rest of the taxpayers. don't show up. if you don't want health help -- if you don't want health care, you have a choice.
thank you. host: the numbers on spending over 10 years are $1.2 trillion decrease -- under the american health care act. the one that was it used last year by -- last week by republicans. that would include less for medicaid over 10 years. this legislation would need 300 billion mean $883 reduction in revenues over 10 years. david, louisiana. republicans, your next. -- you are next. caller: thank you for this forum . the first thing i would like to talk about is we need i partisan activity -- we need bipartisan activity in congress and the white house. this is ridiculous.
this country is a joke. i hear all of these people stating facts about the cbo and the care, and none of them know what they are talking about, because of the information is mostly inaccurate. host: where do you get your information from? truthfully, i watch all three channels. i read the newspaper. i read the "new york times." i read my magazine. anything i can get my hands on. i try to ascertain and read through all the junk. that is my biggest complaint is there is no source of information. the wall street journal is even tainted.
there is no real source in writing or tv that is not biased based on their own political affiliation, so that is a good question. host: why don't you trust the congressional budget office? they are called the nonpartisan scorekeeper. you don't think these numbers can be trusted? degree i have a masters in environmental science. i work for the federal government, state government for 30 years doing environmental work. and theylot of people don't know what they are talking about. i made a living. i was in environmental manager for different types of industries. i'm a very technical person and i hear all the scrap on tv. it is all lies. the political pundits and the
senators and representatives, even the greenhouse gases. it is misinformation. i see it all and it is frustrating to me, because what we want our faqs, -- what we want our -- are fact. i have a masters degree and i worked for 30 years for good companies, the army, the navy. i see all the stuff and i am 57 years old and i cannot believe all this junk coming out of washington. twitter -- jamie on twitter. jamie might be referring to the hypothetical that the "new york times" text from the congressional budget up office report -- takes from the
congressional budget office report. planperson's health care would be offset by $13,600 in tax credits under the current law, leaving that person responsible for $7,000. for $1700.ble talking about it this morning for a few more minutes. we are going to come back to it later. if you don't get in this segment, stick around. we do want to hear from you. just become a virginia. democrat -- chesapeake, virginia. democrat. caller: i am retired and the
only insurance i could get was cobra. i called the health market and had several choices which was cheaper. i would like to know how many people who have been hanged for their insurance and got their money sent back saying overpayment? if i would not have been paying attention with all of these -- i get these mails from insurance and i would not have -- and if i would not of been paying attention, they send back my overpayment." -- saying, "overpayment." they said if you do not send your insurance money, you'll be taken off insurance. i sent my money in on december 28, and then january 15, they sent me back my check saying, "overpayment." i believe the insurance company
is playing tricks because of the cbo. they're taking people off insurance so the numbers will be low. host: do you think things have gotten more confusing and health insurance after the affordable care act? or do you think it is less confusing? it was less confusing last year when i just retired, and i went in and got insurance. it was a wonderful thing. , it was a beautiful thing that i was able to get insurance rather than get cobra. i worked for a pharmacy section and cobra does nothing. everybody who came in, cobra insurance didn't pay for anything. when i got my insurance through the health market, i was able to
get insurance, everybody was so helpful. even when i got it this year, i just re-upped and made it a little bit better. i sent my money in and they are sending my money back. host: let's go to alan, the last call in this segment. good morning. caller: how're you doing? what i want to talk about -- the , theren health care bill is no room the $800 billion tax providers the wealthy . the cbo said something like $300 billion in savings. if you take that $800 billion that you want to give tax bricks to the wealthy and put that in there -- tax breaks to the wealthy and put that in there, that would be $1 billion.
thepinion is tax breaks to rich do not belong in any health care plan. host: we will keep going through the cbo we will keep going throh the cbo scoring of that legislation later in our program. we'll talk about secretary of tillerson's upcoming trip to asia as well as angela merkel's visit to the u.s. with emily tamkin, staff writer for foreign policy. and later tom wildsmith, former president of the american academy of actuaries will be here to talk about the health care overhaul proposal that would allow insurance to be sold across state lines. that's all coming up this morning on the washington journal. ♪ >> anyone working at any hedge fund involved in