tv Washington Journal Anthony Carnevale Discusses President Trumps New... CSPAN June 20, 2017 12:10pm-12:39pm EDT
job offer before they can receive a high school diploma. ayor emanuel will discuss that proposal at the national press club in washington, d.c., at 1:00 eastern time. live here on it c-span. now on c-span, a conversation from today's "washington on job training programs. >> "washington journal" continues. host: anthony carnevale is a professor at georgetown university. the administration is making a push, looking at apprenticeship programs in the united states. where is it coming from? guest: apprenticeship is the
gold standard for job training, you make more than a college graduate and the employer will pay for it. that is the tricky part. european countries, this is a 40% popular alternative for to 60% of young people when they graduate from high school, they have a skilled trade and a job and the youth unemployment rate is 1/5 of our youth unemployment rate. the trouble is a cost a lot of money and a apprenticeship can cost the employer from $60,000 to $250,000. in south carolina and north carolina, companies who do this do it at somewhat lower costs, $190,000. this is on the employer. it is great stuff. no doubt about it. if you can get and apprenticeship, grab it.
the: what trades fit under apprenticeship? know: the trades we all are in the construction trade, everything from being a crane operator, licorice and, plumbing -- electrician, plumbing, but more and more in european countries it is in the service industries so that it is fairly, in the european case, probably cast across the economy, if you will be a computer programmer, you may do that for -- you may get a three-year apprenticeship rather than going to college and taking on a set of courses. it is spreading. the attempt the trump administration and obama administration before that, is to expand apprenticeship in america which is very difficult to ask employers to drop that kind of money. host: some of the calls from the
administration takes a look at 4.5 million new apprenticeships over the next five years, up from 500,000. the budget for 2017 slated to provide $95 million for apprenticeship, more than the obama administration. president's request draws down money from current youth training programs. there is a bit of a problem there. ,pprenticeship are preferable they are a better alternative for young people. in the end in america, only about 1% of our workers are in apprenticeship programs. the economy out a whole, only 3.5 to 4 million peoples have ever been through a apprenticeship program after 153 million workers. is an unusualis
opportunity, a very good one. something that has never taken hold the way it has in european nations. host: you are here to talk about these proposals when it comes to apprenticeships. we divided the lines differently today, college graduates want to get your thoughts on this approach may be versus college, 202-748-8000. for those who have served apprenticeships, 202-748-8001. all others, 202-748-8002. we will take your calls in a moment. as far as the federal money -- what is that used for? guest: the federal money that goes for apprenticeships is used to process forms to register the apprenticeships. we do not spend substantial amounts, the government does not, the employer does, which is the tricky part. when you add in $100 million to
subsidize apprenticeship programs, those money would go to helping fund employers, the obama administration drop $177 million. that has not moved the needle as apprenticeship in america since the 1970's has been gradually -- it began small and has gradually declined as the share of all jobs in america. host: 500,000 in the u.s. currently, the idea of raising that to 10 times that, is that feasible? guest: it is if you decide you will not have any real standards for apprenticeships. ist the truck administration proposing -- from administration is there be no standard, the minimum standard for -- voluntary, half of apprenticeships do not register with the government but if you register, you are supposed to do 2000 hours of on-the-job training and another 150 hours
in classroom training. all paid for pretty much by the employer. a lot less than they do in europe. in europe, two years, five days a week and employer-based training and you get another year of formal schooling. if you take away the standard, and internship can become an apprenticeship. we have them in our offices, young people who do great work but are not really getting trained eight hours a day, five days a week. host: one of the ideas from the obama administration was this idea of lessening the regulatory burden when it comes to these programs, is that what you're talking about? guest: the regulatory burden is minimal to begin with, in america apprenticeship is voluntary and half of them, 500,000 are registered and 500,000, maybe a little more, are not registered as unions and employers see no reason to
register. in some cases, they do not register because they think the standards set by the federal government, the 2000 hours of training on the job and 144 hours of in class training, is too low of a standard because there are a lot of apprenticeships that get a lot more training and classroom training. they think they are lowering their standard bystanders -- signing up with the federal government. host: because you are at georgetown university, you study these things, when someone goes into an apprenticeship program, they go on to the work world, what is expected for the lifetime as far as their ability to earn, what can they achieve? guest: they will learn over a lifetime more than the average college graduate, not more than the high-end college graduate, the engineering college graduate or a person with a strong business degree or medical degree.
-- oney will earn average average $60,000 to $70,000 a year and when you throw in overtime but, because these are $80,000,rades, $85,000, $90,000, even $100,000 per year. it is not that way for everybody, apprenticeships for medical assistance, the people that make beds in the hospital and take care of the patients and they will make maybe $40,000 per year. and general, a skilled apprentice is somebody who will have very high rates of employment over their lifetime and their earnings will increase gradually as they go along. host: that suggest the field the programs are sustainability -- these fields will go away over the next 10 years, 20 years. host: because we have so few of them in america, the employers who do this, mean it. they need tocause
do it and they want these skilled workers and will put down the money and put in the time. that is why when you get an apprenticeship in america, a real one, a good thing, not public relations, it is real professional and occupational training. host: anthony carnevale from georgetown university is our guest. james in texas is a college graduate. go ahead with your question or comment. caller: the apprenticeship and internships are important and everyone should know -- guest: in the united states, since we do not have a european tradition where 40% to 60% of the kids in high school as in sweden, germany, finland, and other places in europe are in these apprenticeships for at least two years to four years. what we have turned to because we have the same skilled problems, we need to give young
people more skilled training and we stopped doing that in our high schools. we do not do occasional education very much in a more. in america, we have turned to a lightheaded form of apprenticeships, the internship. any kid who goes to georgetown, they want to look in the catalog to see they will get internships because that is fairly light handed but valuable work experience on the job. it is not an apprenticeship. host: someone who served in an apprenticeship, david in brooklyn. go ahead. skilledi am a highly trade union, woodworking field, i went to france in the 1960's. there was a lot of conflict at the time. i am walking around the tradesmen area, the 15th quarter of france and noticed the
woodworking shops. i walked into one and said, this is something i would like to do. i want to learn to become a furniture maker. , youorkshop owner said cannot just come in here and work. i said, i will work for free. he said, you have to go to our professional trade schools to get a diploma to have the basis of theory and practice before you can have an apprenticeship. , youyou are in apprentice learn the skill under the master tradesman. we are trying to push here, businesses running shouldiceships, where it not be that way, it should be schools, professional trade schools teaching whatever trade it is.
and giving the time necessary for that particular trade to enter into an apprenticeship where they learn the skills. guest: the european version empowers the skilled worker, the craftsperson. the artisan. whether an electrician or a furniture maker. the power in the relationship between the student and the master, the apprentice and the journeyman, as we used to call it, is a relationship that is built around the teaching in much of the same way you will learn karate in a class in america. thehe american case, skilled trades worker has less power. in the american case, labor has less power, unions are relatively weak, compared to the european union's.
we do not drive job training and skill training by passing the skill from one person, who is a master in one generation, to a novice in the next generation. our systems are much more driven by the employers themselves, without much participatory power of the worker or the government, or schools. in america, we keep clear separations between those institutions and, in the case of apprenticeships, the employers, the boss. host: let's hear from a college graduate, ted in washington, new jersey. ted from washington, new jersey? let's go to jacob and the -- in philadelphia. caller: i have a question. my company is in publishing in philadelphia.
everyone that works there is a college graduate. i have noticed that we cap applying for an internship that have masters degrees and sometimes are pursuing a phd. how are we going to incentivize my company to pay these people as a apprentice instead of a free labor in turn with a masters degree -- in turn with a masters degree? weekendhe one white incentivize them is to bribe them, which is what the obama administration appropriation was about. administration with another hundred million dollars. the reason employers do this, we know from having studied it in europe and the united states, employers do this because they need to and want to. they see the value in it.
we know that when you ride employers, it is not the best way to get it done with the better way to get it done is helping employers build a program, help them collaborate with a community college or technical school, or craft school. so that they do not bear the entire burden of the teaching. in the american system, the incentives are relatively weak. that is why, whatever we had inships america, they are very real and employers do them because they found no alternative and needed real skilled labor, not just guilt, but people -- skilled, but people who are problem solvers and work well with others, understand the culture of the occupation, the craft they were in.
had internalized its quality standards and affect. that is where these things succeed the most. host: let's hear from covington, georgia, the line from others -- .he line for others, dan caller: talking about the apprenticeship program and how expensive it can be to the employers or to the country, i do not understand, if you take a kid coming out of high school that chooses not to go on to college. but they go in the construction industry. i see it on a daily basis, i am in construction. take concrete, a lot of ethnic groups out there that our kids could be filling those jobs. those are good paying jobs and if you put in the time and get with these big companies that are constantly doing construction and you learn, the
company pays you as you go. a 17, 18,out 19-year-old kid out of high school making $40,000, $50,000 plus per year putting in hard labor, time, learning the trade. i do not see why we make it so complicated when it -- let's go back to the high school. when i was in high school in the 1980's, we had a program where we learned construction. how to do bricks and concrete. high schools do not offer that anymore. kids do not get the hands-on training they want or see going on. ,hen they go on the job sites they do not see minorities like blacks. mostly you see hispanics and other races. i see it on a daily basis. there is a lot of money in construction. we need to steer our kids back
to those jobs. host: thank you. guest: in the american case, it is difficult to do apprenticeships because of our culture and in many ways a very good thing about our culture. in 1983, a report called a nation at risk, which became the battle cry for forming american k-12 education. what we decided, we were no longer going to have tracking. -- especially and high school but also gradeschool because we found out that minority kids and low income kids, working-class kids, were being pushed off into vocational education and even in the case of women being pushed off into home economics. we decided as a nation through successive national administrations, governors and the like, we would have one curriculum through high school and it would be an academic
curriculum. we banished essentially vocational education which is why nowadays, if you are going to get vocational preparation, you have to get it after high school. there is some vocational preparation in high school, it had such a bad name, it had to change his name to career and technical education and leave town and come back. career and technical education is not so much about teaching people how to do an occupation, it is teaching people about occupations. it is an attempt to familiarize young people with the world of work. educational,al job professional education in america, goes on a post secondary. you are right, as a result, half of the kids who graduate from high school never get a post secondary degree. there is the other half who are being left behind.
this is a problem and apprenticeship is one attempt to get at that but something also done after high school for the most part. host: our next goal, a college graduate from new hampshire. i spent five years in germany as a student and as a soldier. i was exposed to the apprenticeship system. i would like to talk about the pluses and minuses, in germany, the kids take an exam around eighth grade and determine the rest of their lives. if they do well, they go to an academic program and get something like a junior college degree. -- they can also go on to the university. the ones who do not will be in an apprentice type training.
the upside of this is that when you go into a bakery or restaurant, or get your car repaired, you are guaranteed excellent work. the downside, if somebody really likes to cook at the age of 25, they cannot decide to start a restaurant as they have not gone through the program. we have the freedom and flexibility but we do not have the guarantee of good quality. we have a lot of people who like to work on cars and they started car repair shop. that is the plus and minus. we could stand a little more of a rigorous good apprenticeship program that would train people well. guest: in general, i think a growing share of americans agree with you. if you dids dilemma, -- that they do not have in germany or switzerland. states hashe united a very robust and laudatory, and
majority -- admirable ethic of upward mobility. peoplese to track young when they are in the seventh, eight, 10th grade into an occupation they will be in for the rest of their life because we find out, when we do that, it is the same kids who get tracked, the least advantaged kids and who in america tend to be my talk -- minority, latino, african-american working-class, low income. that is anathema in america, even though it can be a good thing, can give people a career. we have political values that make it tougher on us which is why we have shifted this kind of training into the technical institutes, community colleges, that come after high school. that is not working very well because a lot of kids are still graduating from high school, half of them, and end up lost in the labor market.
until they catch on later with some kind of post high school job-training or vocational preparation. there is a dilemma in america we have to resolve as to how we will do this. host: aside from the apprenticeship side, what about job-training programs at the federal government in a classroom type, are they effective and do they work well? guest: job-training per se in america has been a failure. we have gone -- we had job-training for adults, a huge crash in the blue collar economy in america and we see the results in our politics now, lots of people were left behind. especially males. we did not retrain them effectively. in part, they were just too small. we spent $500 billion per year on college education in america. we spent $18 billion per year on job training for adults.
the european nations also, along with apprenticeships, do a lot more of that training than we do . we are paying the price for not having done that well in the 1970's, 1980's, 1990's and now. host: is there a way to make the program more effective? guest: yes, the problem with the program here before, in the old days, we were training people for jobs that were not there. we know where the jobs are, our information systems, as the information revolution -- labor the information systems is much more powerful and we literally no where the jobs are -- know where the jobs are. if we were to spend the money, we would be much more able to match people to jobs, and that is through skills, to find out skills what they cap and what skills the jobs require and find out the gap and match them to the job.
we more or less have given up on job-training in america. host: one more call, mark in new york. caller: how are you today? host: fine, go ahead. caller: my question relates to the change or differences in the students and training people in the industry over the years. if you take the comparison of germany, when they had an apprenticeship program that was strong and their test results ,ere excellent, and finland which has a strong apprenticeship program, and today they have excellent scores. germany thatge in has not changed in finland, the diversity of the population, the influx of people from eastern europe, turkey, and now from syria and other places. that has affected the outcomes of education in germany, no doubt about it.
when you compare it to places where that has not occurred to any extent, finland. the question is -- how to make the apprenticeship program work for a very diverse country like the united states? ,ersus countries in europe especially ones like finland where the program is working very well. host: thank you. we will let our guest respond. guest: one of the political issues and all of this, a sensitive one so let me be careful, it is much easier to do a apprenticeship in germany, it used to be finland, switzerland. when you go to those countries, you look around and everybody looks the same, pretty much. lately, they look less the same and they are having problems. in germany, if you pick up a phone book and you find somebody's name, you are likely to find what their occupation is, listed with their phone number.
germans take a great deal of pride in their vocation or occupation. there is no loss of status for being a plumber, electrician in germany versus being a professor . everybody is proud of their occupations and germans will spend money on other germans. ,hat they are running into now that they did not before, i'd influx of immigrants and they are less willing to spend money on the grandchildren of people who do not look like them. a case where, at the risk of bragging about america, we have a tough time with diversity but we are much better at it than they are because we have lived with it. we handle that with no vocational training through high school, everybody gets the same, then people separate after high school. we do not have a strong job-training system after high school, unfortunately. you gothe problems -- if
to europe, this happens to all of us, i did this in the clinton administration, as did the president and his wife, you see the german and the swiss and the other systems, you are blown away. you see it and it obviously works for young people. you come back to america and immediately run into this issue where we do not want to start tracking kids when they are in want them towe have a full set of options and the gold standard in america is still to go to college and get a bachelor's degree. we have to find a way to build a system that exposes people to work alternatives when they are in grade school and high school, then help them learn and occupation after high school we do nots a society, seem to be bothered by one kid going to a community college and learning to become a computer programmer, and another kid going to a liberal arts college and studying shakespeare and getting a four-year degree