tv The Communicators Online speech EU digital issues CSPAN April 12, 2019 10:41pm-11:10pm EDT
washington policymaking for all for all to see. there is no monolithic media. broadcasting has given way to narrowcasting. youtube the stars are a thing. but the big idea is more relevant today than ever. no government money support c-span. it's nonpartisan coverage is fund is as a public service. c-span is your unfiltered view of government. you can make up your own mind. >> this week on the communicators, more of our interviews from the state of the net conference held in washington dc. us, daphne keller of stanford university law school. what is it you do at stanford? >> i am the director of
intermediary liability. nobody knows what that means. when as i work on one -- platform like youtube or twitter has to take down information the user's out. >> you don't have any official role with youtube or twitter, do you? role, willo official i did work for google for many years. i have the experience of being on the inside of one of these companies. one of the things you learn, people right in with all kinds of allegations saying you need to take this out of search results. lots of the time, they are wrong about the law, they are trying to silence their competitors or critics. on the inside. >> at stanford, what is your role? are you part of the teaching profession?
>> i do do some teaching. the center for internet and society is a public interest institution. work.public interest research and advocacy and ofching at the intersection technology and policy and law. >> what kind of work were you doing at google? >> i was the lead counsel for different products at different times. google chrome. google video. toward the end, i headed up the legal team that ran web search. focus -- theour focus of your seminar? >> i was in a seminar that was about platforms and and online speech. >> what should the rules be? the u.s. has a pretty good
law in place, a set of laws in place that have been there since the 1990's and are a lot of the reason we have the internet sector we do today. >> is this the decency act? >> that is one of the big ones. section 2:30. it has gotten a lot of criticism. that is section 2:30 covers most kinds of speech -- dell digital millennium copyright act. that is a federal crime, platforms don't have any special immunity. the big example is child sexual abuse material. they have the same obligations as anyone else. goodu said the u.s. has a patchwork of laws. is it different in the eu or
asia? >> it is very different. the eu is the easiest example. a framework. it is the process of may be changing. what they have had since the year 2000, the e-commerce direct. platforms to find them a little differently than we do but they do not become liable unless they know about it. which sounds pretty reasonable on the face of it. because of this problem of false accusations and platforms not knowing for sure what is illegal, it leads to a problem where to be safe, you air on the side of caution. take down more than the law would require you to take down. sometimes let yourself be trolled by people trying to
silence their competitors or critics. >> a censorship issue. >> it is a censorship issue for sure. >> what other issues are affected by this? >> by calling it a censorship issue, we have covered the first amendment. your ability and my ability to speak online without potentially being silenced. of the big issues is an economic issue. it is much easier to get investors to support you to start a platform like youtube here or yelp. or instagram, any of the big success stories because there is not this big risk of liability looming over you. there is a disparate impact issue. particularly with platforms
down pressured to take so-called terrorist content in the eu and to do so very quickly and with little time to look into what this video and kurdish or whatever it is, there's going to be a lot of over removals. it is going to hit people speaking arabic, talking about islam, immigration policy. issue that a quality does not get enough attention. >> is there a due process issue? there is. brother, is there a due process issue. there is a lot of interesting work being done on this because as we have taken decisions about what speech is legal or illegal out of the courts and put them with private companies to decide, or just enforcement of private terms of service, more people notice they do not do a
good job. they are not equipped to do a good job. there's something called the santa clara principles which is a set of demands from civil society organizations saying you have to make your rules clear. the person who hears the appeals person whohe same decided to take it down in the first place. does there have to be a way for say, i wasd out and wrongly accused. there is a lot more that could be done. >> you are on the inside at google. focus are these issues inside a company like that? focus. are a substantial timed you spend a lot of looking at these? >> i find it really interesting. when we talk about these laws,
it is very easy to talk about platforms, we are picturing facebook and youtube. hirenies that can 10-20,000 moderators. can build tools that can detect illegal speech. really, when lawmakers make a thinking about facebook and then they apply it to anybody who is hosting third-party content online including little tiny companies, maybe nonprofit organizations, that becomes a problem. those companies do not have the bandwidth to think about this all the time and have lots of lawyers like me and employers who work on it. we make a lot of policy mistakes by doing that. >> censorship in china. where does that fit? or anywhere? this is a hot button issue
for google. there are stories about dragonfly and the possibility of going back into china with a chinese system. realistically, the continuum of what governments want platforms to do, china is kind of over here but then there is russia. the european union, for example, has a proposed law, the terrorist content regulation which is really scary. it applies to any platform hosting third-party content no matter how small as long as they are offering services in europe. when they are notified something to letorist, they have someone -- take it down within one hour. the authorities are not courts. they are local authorities who may just be police. once they have taken it down,
they have to build a filter, a way to proactively detect this prohibited speech. in a reporting relationship with these local authorities. doingay, this is how i'm it. is it good enough? the local authorities say yes or no. yourre risking 4% of penalties for getting it wrong in your compliance. there are a lot of laws out there. >> how should they be approached? >> they should be approached in an evidence-based manner. one thing to look at is what i mentioned before. with badly designed platforms. another huge gap, the security question. is this going to make things safer. most legal systems well except
expression inree exchange for security and a turning violence. the evidence on whether this is going to deter violence or decrease radicalization is dubious. there is -- our security researchers looking at how radicalization happens. thinkf whom, half of whom this doesn't actually work. this does not make us safer. >> that is a pretty american attitude. making it an evidence-based system, allowing free speech up until we find out -- >> i would hope evidence-based is a value in a democracy. >> that is badly phrased. the whole approaches, we can do it until we can't.
airing on the side of protecting speech until it is proven there are other problem, we balance these things differently. every society has free expression protections. we have things where we prohibit balance themd we somehow. i don't think the differences are as great as we sometimes say they are. google forque wanting to be back in a market ?ike china >> probably but it is a hard call. any time a company goes into a country that is like a lucrative and is going to have leverage over the platform, you are running the risk that country is going to tell you to censor things.
privacy, your users turn over data to the police. that happens with countries all over the world, it is not unique to china. to thees coming up highest court of the eu about whether european laws can be a basis for taking down search results globally or facebook posts. a case out of austria involving a green party politician. idea that financially powerful markets will enforce not consistent with the balance of rights other countries have struck, that is kind of universal. >> are these the type of issues you discuss with students? >> she is the director of intermediary liability at the
center for internet and society. it exactly what is you do? speech.orms and when these companies have to stop hosting your speech. when they might have to host your speech. guest on theen our communicators. >> now on the communicators, we want to introduce you to peter. he is with the delegation of the european union to the u.s. where he serves as a minister counselor looking into digital economy policy. that was a lot of words. what is it you do and who do you represent? >> i work for the european union. i have been based in brussels. what i do is digital economy
policy. that is probably everything you can imagine. issues that are slightly more technical in nature. we have recently done some good work on artificial intelligence. view onent our point of issues like privacy, cyber security. underpin our which internet economy and society. is the so-called internet economy of the eu? >> it is about 4% of the gdp and growing fast. europe is a group of very modern countries. the internet has penetrated. you should trait is extremely high today.
>> how would you'd define the itsosophy of the eu in approach to internet regulation as opposed to the u.s.? >> it is very interesting. iobably the first time learned about the notion of a harm-based approach. exposed touence is regulation only one harm occurs, action is taken if necessary. that is perhaps slightly different in europe. a lot more interest to think forward, long-term. the european commission is elected for five years. generally publish policy papers. you see a lot of forward-looking thinking. there is expertise to carry out that work. experts from research.
what are the issues down the road which are going to hit our society. artificial intelligence is a good example. we have spent a lot of time and thinking the last 12-15 months to see how will that implicate when we as citizens, workers, , governments officials, how do we see this from a broader nature? andhe u.s. will go into ai we will try to tackle it while how was itaying, going to affect our lives in the next five years? is that a fair assessment? notost of these issues are kind of this or that. this is a little bit but we are trying to do here. that thinking comes along with solid investment at the
same time. perhaps it comes with certain guidance. what to expect as a society to get out of this? it may be similar in other areas . it is a balance of how can we make those investments most useful for society? >> what has been the impact of gdp are? injured in on 25th of may. we have seen antidotal evidence. a number of cases with the heater protection authorities. we have seen google has been fined from the french data authorities. who would probably need more time. my colleagues are starting to look into what could be a one-year report.
what change means for the companies. it will take a lot more time to see those cases going through the data protection authority, being challenged in court. process a natural taking a number of years which should not be surprising. the european data protection regulation almost took 10 years to come to life. necessary totime see how it affects in a positive and negative way. ishow much of your time spent thinking about brexit? >> from the european union perspective, clearly my precedent has impressed a few
times, this is not what we see. it is a necessary step in our process. referendum, the european union has been setting up of the process is to deal with it. together with the u.k., we have delivered an agreement in november. u.k. to see how to ratify that agreement. see that as the best possible option. it is probably going to hurt both economies in both countries. every few weeks come other seems to be a headline in our papers here in the states. for somes been fined infraction. i don't mean to play light. we have almost become immune to this.
is google not a favored company in europe? >> google is a favorite company. itdo consumers enjoy using obviously it is popular. >> usage. record high. enjoys in record reputation. the office is one of those which is savvy and articulate and what they are doing. one thing you see with market leaders, you may lead in your market and other aspects. thatld not necessarily see as a negative element. a selective reading everybody
has. you only notice what you want to notice. authorities, data protection authorities, they are independent organizations. the fine or act upon information they receive from all sides. european ones as well as where the companies come from. wehave recently published, have recently published fines related to competition cases. place inll over the all sorts of sizes. google is no exception. >> what is the eu approach to 5g? where are you? many people portrayed it as a race. i think we could split that conversation a little bit.
bringsalk about 5g which faster rates to your phone? are we talking about 5g which connects smart vices which underpins this internet of thingss? is probably the more interesting thing. technology which can help us. a wide array of diet vices. it could be cars. is the interesting stuff. in europe, we have approved a a ton of corridor's for of us driving using 5g. infrastructure is being built out right now. when cars pass through, they can use and enjoy that infrastructure. you see a lot of that happening. clearly, european
telecom companies are investing heavily in rolling out 5g. the metropolitan areas, the business case is backed up. we would prefer full coverage europewide. when is a question i cannot answer at this stage but it is a playershnology, we have who are very strong. >> how many of these issues is their cooperation on both sides of the atlantic? we talk about them as if they are in silos. i would presume there is a lot of back-and-forth across the atlantic. me come this relationship looks like a relationship between brothers. we are brothers in the same family. we may disagree on many things but we are still brothers.
it doesn't matter whether i talked about privacy, artificial intelligence. there is no difference in terms of values. system is similar. which brings us to principles. they aren't exactly the same we are using in europe. when it comes to legislation, how do you tune that into rulemaking? yes, there are differences. point that be the dividing us? or should we look at common values? are we looking at a picture where the united states and europe cooperate in a global co-op -- relationship? >> we heard a few calls from doubles for an international body to regulate data commerce.
>> i presume you are referring to the announcement of president g20 --reference to the what i find interesting is he is separating personal data from nonpersonal data. interested in nonpersonal data, business data, scientific data. healthy the. gets forgotten in our conversation. we always focus on personal data. how can we deliver more to society and the economy? open data, is tremendously building services
around transportation, health. connecting different silos of service. if we can find here norms, standards, which help us exchange this data, this free flow of data, that is tremendous good. he is receiving the full support of the european union. is minister for the european union, looking at digital policy. >> once tv was three giant networks and pbs. and then, a small network with an unusual name rolled out a big idea. let viewers decide, on their own, what was important to them. topan open the doors policymaking for all to see. in the age of power to the
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