tv Brookings Institution Discussion on the Death of Jamal Khashoggi CSPAN July 2, 2019 12:18pm-1:36pm EDT
where's a good place to put texas. i believe it is becoming more competitive. i don't believe it is in the tossup status quite yet. in the most recent senate ratings, we moved senator cornyn out of our solid republican category to a likely republican category, which is a more vulnerable place. i think it could get more competitive as it goes on. >> on behalf of the center of the brookings studio. i want to welcome you. we have a full house. this is not the first event in washington on this general topic. i think it's a fair question to ask why. why are we still on the murder of one individual? that's a topic that will come up in our discussion today, of course. two points are worth pointing out. brookings has a quaint notion that facts matter.
we still believe that. it's controversial, but we do. we also think norms might matter or should matter. that is more open for debate on which norms and when. in that sense, i couldn't think of a better event to shed light on some of the facts of what became a very large, very important event. jamal khashoggi was known to many people in washington and was, in this building many times -- and was in this building many times. he was known to people here and abroad. his murder, in that sense, drew more attention than others attending. his murder also had implications for national law, for international norms, and for residents of the united states for american foreign policy. with that, i'm delighted we can host this event today. and, on short notice, i'm grateful for the full house.
this is particularly important because we have a special guest and we are honored to have her here with us. dr. agnes callamard who is the u.n. special reppo tour on exit dental -- existential summary. thank you so much for joining us, doctor. france andizen of has a distinguished career in human rights, in the united nations, and in academia. she's is the director of the initiative seeking international and national norms and to define and protect anedom of expressio in internet connected community -- interconnected community. she previously had many years and civil organizations dealing with freedom of expression. she was the rector of article 19, a national human rights organization promoting human
expression. she found an led humanitarian counter -- accountability partnership and she formally works in amnesty international as well, and very important roles. in her role as special reppo -- rapporteurtour , we are excited to have her and look forward to her comments. moderating our discussion will be my friend and colleague who is a senior fellow at the carl -- center for middle east policy. she is former deputy assistant at the state department and obama administration. she's done a lot of work on democracy promotion and was deputy secretary of state in 2011, so you can imagine see had something to do there.
she has also written on this topic exactly on the question of u.s. army relations and u.s. relations with middle east powers broadly. we are also joined by my former boss, a nonresident senior fellow with us and formally the acting vice president of our program. he's the chief engagement officer at world justice projects in washington. from april 2008 to 19, he was a senior fellow with us, and the inaugural fellow of our robert voss foundation -- dos foundation fellowship in berlin. he previously worked in the white house and pentagon. brookings worked on a wide variety of issues relating to human rights, diplomacy, and rise of democracy. he's the author of five rising democracies in the state of
international liberal order, which i highly recommend as well. without further ado, i would dr. agnesvite callamard to the stage. [applause] dr. callamard: good afternoon. thank you for the kind words and introduction. it's a pleasure for me to be here today. share with you, quickly, some of the findings and conclusions related to my investigation, and then i hope we can have a conversation. i think you have, over the last week, in bombarded with information about the killing of havehashoggi and what
pursued and i think it's important to highlight a few dimensions of its. khashoggi was mr. an extraordinary event. unfortunately, a fairly common event. it's common because many journalists and human rights defenders around the world are the object of targets of killings, intentional killings. there's enough evidence to highlight the fact that those killings are not decreasing, but are increasing, in spite of many efforts to stop them. evidence that those killings are usually met with impunity. it is also an extraordinary killing because of the nature and circumstances of the execution of mr. khashoggi.
it's a brazen act and an active state. investigation fought to determine whether or not ash to determine whether or not they are aware of states or sponsor before the killing. -- to determine whether or not of states orre sponsor before the killing. know, the state of saudi arabia, as put forward, the killing was conducted by rogue officials, and therefore, they have done everything they had to do to respond to the killing. seriously,r theory and to heart. i looked at the evidence at my disposal in terms of the
commission of the crime, in terms of the investigation of the crime, and in terms of the prosecution of the crime. my only -- the only conclusion i could reach with the evidence is that the state of saudi arabia is responsible for the killing. there's a great deal of international standard and prudence on what it means for a state to be a responsible -- be responsible for a violation, including a killing. i did not come up with my own theory in terms of distinguishing between a rogue act and a state act. on what hadensively been done and written, including by the international law commission. basically, the definition of a state act is an act conducted by state officials using states means and resources. the killing of mr. khashoggi met
all of the characteristics of a state killing. by 15 done representatives of the state, all of whom, with one exception, worked for the state security agencies. least 48anned, at hours, and probably earlier than that. it was planned from riyadh. the killing itself was premeditated at least 24 hours toore the killing, according various information i was able to gather. the state representatives, state agents that conducted the execution, 15 of them did that means.g means of states eight of them traveled using a private jet with diplomatic clearance. diplomatic -- a
diplomatic passport. the killing took place in a consulate. the consulate itself used its power to ensure there were no witnesses on the floor where the killing took place. , someone hadling planned to behave as if it was mr. khashoggi that also required [indiscernible] dimensions of the execution of the crime meet the definition of a state killing. state agents, state means, state resources. there was nothing private. there was nothing personal about the execution of the crime. that is for the execution. in addition to that, i also looked at the investigation and prosecution. human rightstional
law, failure to investigate effectively and promptly in good faith, there are number of other standards, a killing amounts to a violation of the right to life. i did consider the steps taken by saudi arabia to investigate the killing of mr. khashoggi. i found out that they had a team of 17 people that arrived in on the sixth of october and remained in turkey until past the 15th. during that period, they were in the crime scene on their own, without any witnesses and without the turkish investigators. there's enough evidence to conclude that, while they may have investigated what happened there, they also took the opportunity of their presence in the crime scene, to clean it. making it impossible for the turkish investigators finally
granted access on the 15th and on the 17th together any kind of material evidence related to the killing. in addition to that, the turkish investigators were only granted six hours in the crime scene consulate.ch was the and, a few more hours in the days later.o they also had to investigate all of the cause. opinionstigation, in my , and based on international standards related to what an investigation should look like, based on those standards, there is no way i can conclude the investigation conducted by saudi effectively,ne done good faith, and allowed for international cooperation.
that investigation could only have been the type of -- the type of investigation could only have been conducted and given the public statements made at the time. that investigation was done with the saudi government authority behind it. between the link investigation and state is direct. therefore, reinforcing the notion the execution of the killing and what happened afterwards is a state act. when i looked at the prosecution of the crimes, what i did find was, also, iran shows weakness forimitations and abuses as international human rights law. just to give you a few examples, the prosecutor identified, and one of his statements, a range
of people responsible for the killing. he even named one of them as having incited the team before he left, having told them bring , a nationalshoggi threat. that individual has not been charged and is not part of the 11 people on trial. trial is heldhe behind closed doors. the saudi's authorities are continuing to hide behind the charades that this is a domestic matter, even though everything about the killing of mr. khashoggi makes it an international crime. the killing itself is a violation of international human the circumstances of the killings mean saudi arabia violated the vienna compensation -- vienna convention and u.n. charter
forced to the use of extraterritorially for peace. this also amounted to an active torture which is granted on the -- andand constituted force of this body. everything about the killing of mr. khashoggi makes it an international crime, which should attract international attention, scrutiny, and in my indeed anh mandate international -- mandates an international investigation. these are the findings of the trial of the killing of mr. khashoggi. an international crime, a brazen act, a state crime for which the state is responsible.
once we have determined state responsibilities, the next step should be, what does that mean? who is responsible for the killing? put in my reports, my inquiry is on international human rights law, which means focusing quite largely on the responsibilities of the state. however, i did look at the evidence to determine what should be the logical next step. the logical next step for me is to identify individual liability in relationship to the killing, particularly within the chain of command. the 11 people on trial at the moment are at the lowest level. yes, five of them were in the room at the time of the killing, so they are responsible for the killing, but the trial has failed, and is failing so far, to tackle the chain of command,
which, in a very centralized arabia, that of saudi does require to look at the fairly high level, in my opinion. in the report, i highlight some of the evidence at my disposal, which indicates more work needs to be done to investigate liability of the crown prince and of his advisor. of the advisor, the prosecutor himself has already ford his response ability the crime. it is a crime under international law, yet he is not being charged. is more to be done with regard to individual liability and the criminal process. i concluded i'm not convinced
that judicial accountability will be easy to find. particularly in saudi arabia. i don't believe this can be done without turkey either. i'm hoping there are some steps taken in the united states, and ranging actions including asserting jurisdiction. not want to search for justice for jamal khashoggi to of legalostage processes in saudi arabia. i think it's important to fortify other options judicial accountability and prosecution, but as well for different forms of accountability, political, diplomatic, strategy, a number of them. these have been the object of
the recommendations in my report, along with some of the analysis. think oneion, i political issue that is clear to that the response to the killing of mr. khashoggi cannot be to hide behind a process in saudi arabia that is so imperfect. that is the first thing. a second, we cannot hide behind the notion that this is a domestic issue in saudi arabia. absolutely not. it's a crime that calls on the international community to denounce the act. it's a crime for which the united states, in particular, should have a particular interest in solving and of particular interest in the
accountability process. one of the reasons i'm coming to washington is to hope to speak and identify, with various factors, how far the united states can go, what it should do to ensure the killing of mr. andhoggi, a u.s. resident employee, journalist for the washington post, therefore, in --y ways doesn't goilling unpunished. thank you very much. [applause]
>> thank you all for being here. as you heard, it is senior fellow -- i'm a senior fellow for the policy program. foror, thank you so much those specific and comprehensive opening remarks and for the painstaking and thoughtful work that went into this report, which is generating conversation not only around the specifics of this case, but also, as you ford, what this case means state responsibility, for human rights violations, the balance or tension between individual accountability and state accountability, and what responsibility other actors in the international system have to ensure accountability and, importantly, as you said in your report, the responsibility to
prevent a recurrence. as you noted at the outset of your remarks, the targeting of journalists, political dissidents, is all too common. i have to begin by asking whether you have discussed your report and recommendations with the secretary-general at all. dr. callamard: no. was inin geneva as she geneva last week when i was there, but protocol made it difficult for he and i to have a conversation. i'm planning to do so, however. >> wonderful. have you spoken with the high commissioner for human rights? dr. callamard: yes. conversation, understanding your role is under the u.n. human rights council, a subject we will come to in this discussion, the high commissioner also has an essential role to play.
what do you and she see as the next steps within the u.n.? dr. callamard: you mean the high commissioner? i think you will have to ask her. i wouldn't want to put words in her mouth. she did express support for the findings and for the follow-up on accountability, so yeah. tamara: thank you. do you think you have allies within the u.n. system to pursue additional steps at the u.n., which is of course one channel for pursuing international accountability? dr. callamard: that is an interesting question. [laughter] think theard: look, i paralyzed a bit in such an how to tackle
issue. i think the secretary-general, the security counsel, the human -- haveouncil have been had some difficulty attacking a crime that is linked to such influential actors as saudi eveia, that has been at the -- as i was presenting my report, there were words of war with iran. it is all extraordinarily difficult. i think that is not helping justice for the killing of mr. khashoggi. allies -- there are allies within the member
states and allies within the individuals working with the united nation. when it comes to decision-making bodies, we have to keep pushing. tamara: thank you. i think as i reflect on the weeks and months since jamaal's murder, one of's the features that has made it so tricky for investigators, but for all of us, to understand what happened and to understand the role laid by different actors is the context of regional politics. this murder took place in the rivalries and disagreements within the region, including between turkey and saudi arabia. in the immediate aftermath of we saw disappearance, leaking to the media, selective release of information, particularly by the turkish government, you know, and those are -- there are those that would argue that that muddy the
waters for an investigation like yours. my understanding is that, as you went about this work, you had some cooperation from both governments, the turkish and saudi government. i will let you describe precisely. but also, that the turks did not provide you with all of the audiotapes they had available. they didn't provide you with all of the evidence they had available. would you talk about how you navigated those relationships? the investigation into the killing of mr. onehoggi was a complex because of the political environment, because of the geo people that is taking place as i was proceeding with my inquiry, but also because of the nature of the evidence that was available. -- all of which was based on intentions rather
than on what you would expect to find, in terms of evidence. distinctnce is very from criminal evidence. it is like water. you seem to hold it, and then it goes away. it's not as tangible, and it is difficult to challenge it properly, so i am highlighting those imitations in my report. informationsof the available regarding the execution of the killing itself, days very important two are based on intelligence and recordings, which i could not authenticate, meaning the turkish government did not give , and that is quite
understandable because copies of such recordings give you access to metadata, which allows you, if you are so inclined, to find the sources and methods. that couldn't be done. i was allowed to listen to the recording in the office of the intelligence of turkey. but only so much of the recording. rest of the recordings may say about the killing, whether they might not have anything to say about the are very that important questions. i hope the turkish investigators, eventually, will make those remaining recordings public. ofound different ways to triangulate in the information provided in the s orrding to either cctv
other information's i could gather. them ofget a sense from how they're going to predicate the recordings. the recordings are not straightforward. there's a number of things. the important to recognize killing of mr. khashoggi's complex from an evidentiary area standpoint -- evidentiary aerie standpoint -- evidentiary standpoint. they gave me more than just the recordings, so i have results from when they eventually searched the crime scene. they did provide me access to what they found there, in the range of other things. the saudi authority did not compare it at all.
they did not respond to my various official letters, did not respond to my request to meet with the saudi investigator , and with the saudi prosecutor. was no cooperation, whatsoever. tamara: have they communicated with you at all since the report was issued, other than the public statements we have seen? tamara: no -- dr. callamard: no. they have done the public statements critiquing the work i had done, accusing it of biases ias, butuys this -- b they did not present a particular aspect of my conclusion that was unfounded. they remain, at the general level, and usually they use a script that all government that don't like to be criticized the
u.n. uses. she is bias. the methodology is flawed. she relied on the media. those are the three critics, and you find them any time government doesn't like your work. tamara: thank you. ted, i want to bring you into this conversation and ask you to go a little to this issue of state responsibility, as opposed to the responsibility of individuals. ins is a bit of a tension international human rights law. we developed tools for individual accountability, partly to ensure that individuals they would be culpable. they couldn't claim they were following orders. and, to create incentives for individuals to refuse orders to abuse right. in this case, we see this focus on individual accountability has diverted our attention from
state responsibility. i think what the doctor has done in her report, which i have read the 101 pages, and i've read a few of these reports in my research here at brookings. this is one of the most comprehensive and thoughtful, and sober, reports i have ever read on such a difficult and complex subject. i have no doubt that what you are hearing today, just the summary, is coming from something much deeper and richer in terms of its content. that goes to the importance of the case. and itte responsibility being the kingdom of saudi arabia in particular, does raise a number of challenges. i think the fact that turkey is also involved only complicates bettors. the way you'd -- matters. what you drew on different
aspects of international law, the individual human right to life and to be free of torture and not to be disappeared, number one. but, all the other violations that took place by the state, in terms of the vienna convention on consulate affairs and the use anforce really called for extrude neri treatment of this kind of a case. on, before that, i worked on another book where i spent years investigating how you and special rapporteurs work and how they impacted the national level. i'm coming at this from some time looking in the weeds of this. i wanted to mention a couple of things about this mechanism and put it in the context that is important. this mandate on special rapporteur for exit initial -- x
traditional executions -- executions, the member states created this because they know they need an independent voice when it comes to these violations. there are many other mandates that they have created. it is fashionable, in some circles in washington, to dismiss the human rights council and its tools. they say it's a used -- it's used as a shield for dictators, but your investigation proves all three categories are wrong. this is a case involving a powerful middle eastern state, and that goes to the heart of what is useful about the system. no one else in the u.n. system stood up to fill this vacuum of not investigating an international crime. i think that is where the
special rep at -- special rapporteur have the independence to step in and do this. they have the mandate of the council, and they independently choose which cases to focus on, which countries, and not a whole lot of resources. it's a cost-effective instrument. tamara: and is not even your day job. [laughter] ted: it's a very demanding job. this one in particular has been done very professionally. tamara: i want to follow up on this question of other forms of accountability. in your the point report that we shouldn't focus only on the judicial mechanism. when it comes to the united states, i have to say that i'm really struck by the contrast in the response between -- and not only the united states but other countries as well -- the response to this murder and the response to the scruple
poisoning. that was a state going abroad, using diplomatic resources, to target a dissident on the soil of another country who was there under that country's protection. in that case, the united states and a dozen other countries expelled russian diplomat's and said, if you are going to violate the vienna convention on consular affairs, we will constrain your ability to exercise your authorities under the convention. how are we to understand -- is there something about this case then makes it particularly different from the perspective of a state party, or is it a difference -- is it a simple difference between the relationship between the u.s. and russia and the u.s. in saudi arabia. ted, maybe i will let you start. ted: that is probably a more difficult question for you to answer. thehuman rights agenda, at
international level, has always been very politicized. easily see itn through that lens in this particular case. i don't think that is a surprise. i think that does make the work of a special rapporteur more challenging, but not impossible. i think it's a matter of finding allies in the u.n. membership that will now take the case forward. if you think about the commission of inquiry on human rights in north korea, that broke new ground by bringing that case -- it was a mandate of the human rights council -- all the way to the security council. inn the chinese didn't step the way of making sure human rights was put on the agenda of the u.n. security council. as a matter of international security and peace. the president has been set. you have to ask yourself whether this is another case that, because of its scope and fee
exceptional nature of it, it needs to be brought to a higher level in the u.n. system. as difficult as it can be, but it can be done. dr. callamard: if i may add, the killing occurred on october 2. ,ince then, many governments with saudi arabia at the head, have attempted to bury it or move on. in january, at the economy doubles meeting -- davos meeting, saudi arabia was meeting back in the with the notion that now we can move on. that killing is not going to disappear. my report came now and there will be more things coming afterwards. part of various
representatives of government that eventually we can just, if we hold on long enough, it will go away. i doubt it will happen. with this particular issue, it will not happen. there are journalists after its, moviemakers are accurate, the fiance of mr. khashoggi is not going to give up, i'm not gonna give up. other investigators, turkey, it is just not going to go away. that is the first thing. i want to thing highlight is that, in my opinion, the killing of mr. khashoggi and violations by saudi arabia are dangerous for the victims, but they are also highlighting the democratic deficit within our own countries. there's a huge gap between what the public is asking and what
the elected representatives are ready to do on that particular country. there's a very big gap, which is acknowledged by some state representatives, but not by everybody. ofrefore, finding ways reducing that gap is particularly important for us here in this room and abroad. it is really a matter of the values of democracy and how to ensure that, because estate is so powerful, it can claim impunity for such an international crime. i think this is -- this really matters that we don't allow that message to become normalized. it was not normalized for russia, it has not been normalized for russia, it should
not be normalized for saudi arabia. seize haveiocy could been tolerate -- idiosyncrasies have been tolerated in the past, , think it is up to us, i think thatlectorate, to ensure our elected representatives do for globale script governance and minimum respect for human rights. we cannot tolerate that democratic deficit to become the norm. i would love to jump in and build on this point. the issue of accountability and opposite being impunity, is the heart of the matter here. i like the way your report reflected on this. you said that it is not just a matter of who ordered it, who did the act, but who was in the
chain of command and who failed not justut also, criminal accountability, but we have to look at political and financial, and diplomatic forms of accountability in order to make sure this case doesn't go unpunished, given the fact of what we know. can you elaborate on what those measures could be and which ones you see is most feasible. , i reallyard: yes think that that narrative around the killing cannot be a narrative of defeat. to me, that is extremely important, particularly in this day and age and its [indiscernible] some individuals have not been held to account but the issue is
still on the global agenda. some of thehering people holding power and i'm not only talking about the white house but other countries who would want to move on. ensure thateally the notion of justice and accountability takes many different forms in many different colors. accountability, diplomatic accountability, you mentioned the fact that after the russian dissident was killed using chemicals means in the u.k., there was a big diplomatic response. we have not seen that yet when it comes to mr. cascio be. what we have seen our individualized targeted sanctions. there has not been a determination to hold the state
of saudi arabia to account and to me, this is something we must absolutely insist upon. this is not only about individuals, it's about the state that has committed a state crime and so far, the western government that has adopted individualized targeted sanctions which are good are telling the rogue. by so doing so it's important to insist on what do we do with the state of saudi arabia, not 17 individuals. that has not been done and i'm not necessarily calling for state sanctions except on one issue which is technology. mandatet feel it was my and these are difficult topics. these sanctions can have very on the littlepact
people of the country. when it comes to technology, that i believe, there should be a moratorium on the sale of surveillance technology to saudi arabia because time and time again, that country has demonstrated that it cannot be trusted in terms of how it's using that particular technology. that's just one example. have no realized that next year, the g20 will be taking place in saudi arabia. the political accountability for mr. shoji -- for mr. khashoggi means it should not happen or it's held elsewhere or something is being done to ensure that the u.s. and system in the in other countries does not become complicit of that international crime and the
narrative that saudi arabia is trying to sell fairly effectively in some quarters that it has taken the right steps to respond to it. toara: thank you and i want emphasize a point that is brought out in your report very well. in theder took place context of saudi policy. , of other governmental abuses of human rights inside the kingdom. aboutat when one thinks prevention whether it's the saudi government's responsibility to prevent the murder of someone like jamal khashoggi but also the international community's interest in preventing a recurrence of such events, there is a relevance of what else a government is doing. trial of thee, the women activists who were
arrested for peaceful advocacy is ongoing in the kingdom. --re are a number of other others in prison for peaceful and political dissent. as you noted in the trial of those accused of jamal's murder, the savvy judicial system is not making -- meeting these standards of fairness for the rights of those accused. it strikes me that in addition to the point you made about democratic values and freedom of expression and the responsibility and interest that other state government's have their there is also a broader interest or an interest in looking more broadly at human rights. at this particularly brutal, inticularly public killing the context of the broader human rights behavior of a government.
as we talk about accountability and you mentioned the g20 is one example of an opportunity, let's say, for international accountability, it also strikes me that part of what has happened here in washington is that this is a very important relationship between the united states and saudi arabia but it is one between two countries with very different systems, very different values. what i have observed in the concerns raised by americans, oh elected officials on capitol hill, for example, in is wake of jamal's murder what does this say about the reliability of our partner? what does it say about our ability to work with this partner at a government to government level. ? me that there is an interest for saudi arabia in
of thisnding the cost act and the cost of a failure to take responsibility for this act in terms of its ability to sustain its other international relationships, even if they are on different issues. i wonder if you would comment. is theat comes to mind re-examination that's underway in washington about our relationship with china. it's not at the same level of friendship in the first place but very comprehensive after many years of building up all kinds of dialogue and cooperation. we are going through a retrenchment. i have looked closely at china's role -- here's a system that is ours.ferent from do we share values on human rights? if you look specifically at the chinese ours. behavior on human rights, you will see there has
been a bit of a sea change where they have gone from playing defense to offense. i don't know if you have seen this but we have seen that the chinese are pushing against the whole way that the human rights system works. to visit countries and two independent investigations is under attack and china is leading the attack. saudi arabia has been there for a long time. are these our friends or allies? i think we have to be much more -- smarter about how we condition our relationships and if we are serious about human rights, we have to put it higher on the level of priority. tamara: do you think it makes a difference to the u.s. response to this murder that the united states is not itself engaged anymore at the human rights council? it's not part of these conversations. [laughter] i'm not sure.
of leadership at the moment at the human rights council and for a while, the u.s. was quite an important actor and a deep leader on difficult issues within the with rights council president obama in particular. there is a gap and a lack of leadership and people are waiting and looking at each other over the khashoggi investigation. i could feel it during what we call the interactive dialogue after i presented my report with two or three hours where the states make their statement, two minutes each. i was told the day before that everyone was waiting to see what the others were going to do in order to determine how far they
can go on their statement. there is no leadership at the moment. people are just not sure what they can do. my reading of the interactive dialogue -- and i don't know if you listen but maybe the time is not good for the u.s. -- but it was interesting to see how little support there were for saudi arabia. maybe up to eight countries made voicing theirnts, critique and rejection of the report and their support for saudi arabia's ongoing process, probably eight. then there were a number of countries where -- that were middle-of-the-road. even those countries, you would actuallycted them to
be more supportive of saudi arabia. i'm not going to name any countries but i will invite you to consult the statements. then there was quite a lot of countries, thei'm not going to y countries majority, that voiced their support for the re-port and some of the follow-up. it included countries you would not have necessarily expected. when it came to the human rights somethinghere was that happened there which i cannot quite yet fully analyze which i'm sure others will in the near future. when i say support for the report, it does not mean a broad twoement and a broad step holding saudi arabia and its leaders accountable. support butublic
pointot quite to the where i would've liked them to be. it was not a sea change but it was certainly a very positive step taken by the vast majority of people who took a stand. based on my conversation with some of the countries, that i thought would support saudi arabia and did not, i know that they were criticized by saudi arabia afterwards but yet, they took a principled stand. something happened during that anyone isich if interested in analyzing those dynamics, i think it's worth looking at it and trying to understand the reconfiguration that has happened. and i hope the u.s. congress and senate who have been quite courageous in challenging the
ensureouse and trying to that those key principles, human rights protections, war crimes and so on, are drivers for foreign policy. individuals in the senate and congress should take, not pleasure but encouragement. real encouragement for what happened at the human rights council. tamara: thank you, i will open up to questions from the floor. we have about 15 minutes and i will try to get to as many of you as i can. i will ask you to wait for the microphone. identify yourself and ask one single, concise question and let's start with shane harris in the middle. i am a reporter with "the
washington post." i was part of the team that investigated the murder and thank you for the work you have done and being here to discuss it today. since he was killed, we have seen a number of reports from other saudi activists including overseas citing what they say is credible threats that have been delivered by state intelligence services and security services but nothing to indicate a level of threat we saw against jamal, but nevertheless concerning. did you see any other threats to journalist living overseas and do you think it's possible given the relative lack of consequence or response for this crime that they could perpetrate something like this again against other activists? dr. callamard: thank you very much. i did investigate that
particular issue quite a lot. see whether the killing of mr. khashoggi fit within a pattern by saudi arabia itself. i could not find more than what was already in the public domain . there had been a few killings and disappearances and abductions. threats, ies to think there's absolutely no doubt, based on my interviews that most saudi's living abroad who are in exile or self-imposed feel that there are things attached to their well-being.
not these are more than a few phone calls and so on, possibly not at this stage with the exception of the one you have spoken about and activistsch are the 4 gotten by the cia back in may. thinkis enough evidence i for thefor a moratorium surveillance technology at the moment, for sure. tamara: thank you. here, please come in the front? history is filled with examples of states performing covert actions and assassinations. does the united nations
or whatate international law would be applicable to prevent states from entering into covert actions which was more subtle than this case. reference, the domain and the recent book. from simplys states doing things just more covertly? in a way, it was the brazenness of this crime that attracted attention and created the support that enabled you to do this investigation. dr. callamard: i have not elaborated on other forms of covert actions. i was mostly focused on killings. last five years, i found about 15 such killings
that could be attributed to the state. i did not investigate them so i could not really talk about them. actions do, of course happen. they are in violation of varietyional law, the of not only the human rights council but others. does the u.n. investigate them? i think the u.n. has denounced them on a number of occasions. they have announced and the security council can position aainst a killing of palestinian activist in tunisia which was one of the only times the security council took a position for one single killing. denounced nations has other killings but not to the
level of the security council. evidencealso plenty of of the police in a number of states taking action to protect those living in exile including a turkish and iranian dissident and saudi dissidents and so on. i'm not sure i am answering your question but if you are asking whether it violates international law, yes, it does. withn only be justified state consent. and security council authorization. tamara: thank you. in the white shirt? >> my name is sharon kotac and
have you met with any representatives of the trump administration? so, what were their reactions to your report? thank you. dr. callamard: not yet. tamara: you haven't had meetings yet? i met withrd: no, the u.s. administration but not anyone at the white house. tamara: yes? >> i am the senior fellow here at brookings. congratulations on the report. my question concerns the role of the individuals rather than the states. you have been very careful today and another public comments you've made about not speaking about the royal crown prince. could you do that now? [laughter] i have notrd:
because it is not my area of expertise and it's not my mandate. i am a human rights expert. i am not an expert in criminal law which is what would be required. i found it is difficult to orgine that the crown prince --eone at that level didn't could not have known there was such an operation. it is difficult. that does not mean that i have evidence of the crown prince ordering the killing. but i think it's important to understand that the criminal investigation should not just determine, as important as it is, who has ordered this directly. high level officials can be held
accountable for other forms of action or inaction. me, that's quite important that we do not narrowed down the story about the killing of mr. kesha okie to who has ordered it who wasit could be involved directly or indirectly? who knew something was going on but failed to take action to stop it? who should have known that something was happening and stop it and prevent it. prince,ase of the crown to direct links to him are established in my report. first, there was a campaign of , violations taking place before the killing of mr. khashoggi. suggest no way you can
that he is not linked to that campaign. he is the head of state and those links have been denounced they have not even denied it so far. for creating the conditions that made the killing of mr. khashoggi possible, i think it's something that must the more investigated than i have done but certainly one possible direction. no way that the crown prince and others at his level did not know about the botched investigation. followedstigation was by a very unsatisfying prosecution are a violation of the right to life. it was almost the same level as the commission of the crime itself so that is also a direct
link to the highest level of authority including the crown prince. i didn't want the report to just focus on the crown prince. -- your reactions show that what i'm trying to do is point the focus on the state, not on an individual at the moment. i think we really must insist that this was a state killing for which the state must be held accountable and responsible. ted: if i might add, the steps you suggest for systemic reform within the state, everything from reforming of the intelligence services to release of political prisoners and a whole set of other steps that if the kingdom was serious about trying to make amends for this
crime, they could do a lot and start approving their human rights record and i think that is what we are talking about. and's the opportunity tragically we are at this point that this moment offers. tamara: i recall when the abuses at abu graib took place. president george w. bush came out in public and acknowledged responsibility on behalf of the united states government. apologiesed his publicly. ted: which tamara: the kingdom has not done. there are many ways for a state to take responsibility. wait for the microphone if you would. sayse state department they have seen a copy of your report and are looking at it closely so what do you want the administration to do? tamara: the u.s. state department.
report, iard: in the make recommendations specifically directed at the united states. i think the u.s. can play an important role in terms of truth and unlocking the secrecy that has been attached to the killing. its links to intelligence sources. it's externally detrimental to the search for justice. ofecognize the importance sources and methodology but i think there is more than has byn done so far including the cia. i am recommending -- most of my -- myend that you recommendations are about truth
telling. it's about an fbi investigation of the classification information related to the killing of mr. khashoggi so that it can be main public and those can be held accountable. it could be a hearing within .ongress about the killing i think all of those recommendations are really about unlocking the information that is in this country at present and being held under lockedi the recommendations are really about unlocking the information key under the threat of legal action for violating a very important national security provision. that needs to be unlocked. that's what i'm recommending here. areother recommendations the same as other member states. i already talked about looking beyond individualized sanctions. tore is enough evidence
suggest that a part of responsibility for the killings, not necessarily ordering but other responsibilities and i want to put the onus on them to demonstrate that he is not responsible. if we cannot get access to all the evidence, let them show they had nothing to do with it beyond some declaration. that in oneflected of the initiatives within the congress of the moment. there are number of recommendations for all member states but for the united states, it's about transparency and unlocking the information that a few individuals want to keep under the cover. tamara: i want to thank you. i know your time is short because you have other engagements today.
i hope they will prove constructive and productive. at brookings, we believe that fact matter and it's clear that i hope they will prove constructive and productive. begins with truth telling. i want to thank you for the care and the work you put into telling the truth of what happened to jamaal and we wish you. the best in your efforts thank you. [applause] dr. callamard: if i may just believe it is i the people in this room were many of you at least and others the templateeate for real justice because of my many meetings with heads of state are very high level representatives, they really are very hesitant. we need to push them to take the
right steps, to make the right decisions and to say that just cannot go on in that fashion. i know there are many other crimes around the world. what the crime of mr. khashoggi is the feeling of power and impunity that some countries exhibit. that needs to be crushed. that cannot be allowed. the narrative cannot be allowed to go on without any reaction. we must continue because that is very dangerous for mr. khashoggi's accountability but more generally, it is intolerable that governments could just use their power to justify their own impunity. because they are powerful, they must be held to account at a high level. that needs to be the message.
>> later tonight, 2020 democratic presidential candidate beto o'rourke attends a house party in ames, iowa. coverages at 7:00 p.m. eastern here and c-span and thursday, president trump will speak at the july 4 salute to america celebration at the lincoln memorial in washington, d.c. live at 6:15 p.m. here on c-span. you can also stream our coverage live online at www.c-span.org or listen live with the free c-span radio app. >> there has been discussion about an appearance before congress. any testimony from this office would not go beyond our report. it contains our findings and analysis and the reasons for the decisions we made. we chose those words carefully
on the work speaks for itself. and the report is my testimony. i would not provide information beyond that which is already public in any appearance before congress. >> former special counsel robert mueller is expected to appear committees in congress. that's on wednesday, july 17 at 9:00 a.m. eastern and he will testify in open session about his report into russian interference in the 2016 election. watch live coverage on c-span3, online at www.c-span.org or listen with the free c-span radio app. in 1979, a small network with an unusual name rolled out a big idea, let viewers make up their own minds. c-span opened the doors to washington policy for all to see , bringing you unfiltered content from congress and the on. a lot has changed in 40 years but today, that big idea is more
important than ever. on television and online, c-span is your unfiltered view of government so you can make up your own minds. brought to you as a public service by your cable or satellite provider. >> democratic presidential candidate and mayor of south bend, indiana pete buttigieg's in chicago today speaking at the rainbow push coalition annual conference.prior to his remarks , he held a news conference with jesse jackson and others. we will show the press conference first followed by his remarks at the press conference -- at the conference. >> the rainbow push convention. luncheon and he is our speaker. withhave a lot to do workers w