tv Quadriga - Trumps Jerusalem Plan A Capital Mistake Deutsche Welle December 14, 2017 6:30pm-7:01pm CET
one t.v. shadow and if you just pay for this one official information as attorneys i have work on the strength of many cat interest and the problems are always the same core to social inequality that can the prey them off the press and corruption work on the fourth to stay silent when it comes to the fans and the humans and seem right to fold who have decided to put their trust in us. my name is johnny paris and i work at the. hello and welcome to quadriga donald trump stunned the world last week with yet another decision that breaks with longstanding u.s.
policy and with the positions of trusted american allies within hours of his announcement that the u.s. is formally recognizing jerusalem as israel's capital u.s. flags were burning in the gaza strip how must the islamist movement which controls gaza said trumps decision will open the gates of hell on u.s. interests in the region and it calls on palestinians to fund meant a new intifada uprising at a summit hosted by turkish president do on this week muslim leaders called on the world to officially recognize east jerusalem as the capital of palestine. trumps jerusalem plan a capital mistake that's the question we want to discuss here on quadriga today with our guests it's a pleasure to welcome susan neiman back to the show she's an american philosopher and an author who serves as director of the einstein forum in potsdam she says this is a terrible decision which will only make the peace process harder the world should
know it's not a decision supported by american jews seventy five percent of whom are against it and alan posner's back with us welcome to do he's a commentator for the daily newspaper and he says peace begins with the recognition of reality and to this day most arab states don't recognize the existence of the jewish state so how can they then talk about peace and it's a pleasure to welcome them baker he's a middle east analyst of palestinian origin and he worked as a campaign consultant for barack obama he calls trump's decision an active diplomatic arson and says trump is willing to sacrifice not only the palestinians but also whatever remnants of credibility the u.s. government had as an even handed arbiter. so susan we know that president trump often sees foreign and domestic policy as one america first but he's faced pretty scathing criticism from many many people at home in the u.s. including as you pointed out in your opening statement many jewish groups reform
association of reform jews the largest jewish group in the u.s. so who does like this decision whom is it aimed at that's a great question melinda because most people don't know this and if i didn't i would suspect the lie that you know basically comes from the protocols of the elders of zion that jews run the world jews run the united states and that's why u.s. policy towards israel has been so one sided on the contrary the main people who support this or the largest part of trump's base american even. christians and they supported for a reason that will sound crazy looked at for the out from the outside they believe in the apocalypse they believe that armageddon has to happen in the middle east if they believe that there has to be a gigantic war there at the end of which the messiah will come and all the jews who haven't converted will go to hell so this is actually
a deeply anti-semitic group of people i've met some of them it's astonishing but it is by no means a decision either of the majority of the jewish people or in our interests at all and at any event those are key voters for donald trump part of his so-called base so they're the only people who are one hundred percent behind him at this point ellen posner amongst those who condemned this decision within the united states are all but two of the last eleven u.s. ambassadors to israel and a number of them told the new york times that even if as you said this does to some degree represent a recognition of realities on the ground it is very bad diplomacy and will make it much harder to get a lasting sustainable settlement in the middle east. well you have to ask and all these ambassadors must know as they were part of the process that there has
been no lasting and sustainable peace in the region since nine hundred forty eight so why this particular action which simply constitutes a recognition of the facts on the ground should somehow make it more difficult to achieve something which hasn't been achieved already beats me i think. trump's speech he said on the one hand we recognize jerusalem as the capital of israel on the other hand and this does not preclude any agreement on ball edges and so on status in the future is perfectly possible and we should aim at that instead of going over the old historical facts and myths again and again again say ok it's true to some it is jerusalem's capital now what else can it be could it become as ad one has said as mr putin has said the capital also of
a palestinian state what has to happen to go in that direction of course you can how you can open the gates of hell you can have days of rage you can go around killing people everyone knows that not going to solve the problem i want to come back to the question of how much this decision by the u.s. might preclude or not but let's first pick up on the question of whether we're going to see days of rage you said that trump is essentially sacrificing the palestinians but despite thomas' calls for an indie fatah it's been relatively quiet so far why is that could it be that the palestinians themselves say this is actually amounts to a recognition of facts on the ground no i think everybody knows that the facts on the ground that israel has been occupying jerusalem's invited six of them that is the fact on the ground so we should recognize that. the whole calling of days of rage is nothing but a lot of polemic the fact is that at the same time
a thousand five hundred palestinians have been wounded and four killed in the past few days or the past week i wouldn't call that a little bit of a problem i would call that four palestinians killed by israel and a thousand five hundred wounded so i don't know what you want to call a big conflict aeration the fact is that any intifada which will come out of this or not is going to come from the street from the palestinian people themselves not from the hamas leadership nor i. what about us so let's dig a bit deeper and let's begin with president trump's announcement himself as he made that announcement on the sixth of december he expressed confidence that his decision would reactivate the dormant peace process let's listen it is time to officially recognize jerusalem as the capital of israel. well previous presidents have made this a major campaign promise they failed to deliver today i
am delivering i've judged as course of action to be in the best interests of the united states of america and the pursuit of peace between israel and the palestinians i believe that all. or most of the rupee and countries will move their embassies to jerusalem recognize truth when israel's a couple. says and donald trump actually does seem to take peace in the middle east as seriously as he takes anything else he's put his most trusted adviser his son in law jared cushion or on this he has made a lot of statements about it is it really absolutely out of the question that this shock could somehow jolt a very dormant peace process yet i can do i think it's absolutely out of the question first of all because you know i can't even call this
a diplomatic decision right a diplomatic decision you might have told netanyahu. you know i will do this if you will absolutely stop further occupied settlements. whether one could have believed such a promise from that to now who is another things since you know those promises have been made and broken before but something symbolic in in return for this recognition he got absolutely nothing the fact they left it open that something else might happen later is you know jerusalem is the most symbolic issue in the whole peace process so all of these things are symbolic you know it's not about facts on the ground it's about what these things mean symbolically in the fact that jerusalem was left in the oslo accords as the last thing. that should be dealt with after hopefully one had other or. other moves towards peace is
something that he seems to have no clue of jarrad cush no i mean the people that he has appointed as part of his so-called peace initiative from his son in law to his ambasador are about the least informed and the most prejudiced people he could put there so no i don't believe him for a second the other thing that's been pointed out about that picture which we just saw so that is really important look at the iconography of that picture he's surrounded by a christmas tree and he's got mike pence who is his tie to the evangelical base in the background there's nothing jewish about this there's nothing peaceful about this this is you know he's made a deal of saying we can say merry christmas again this is a christmas present to the evangelicals so i want to come back to the stoutest rituals and we have a piece on that that we're just going to show in a minute but own posner netanyahu we heard him there he came to europe this week to
make his case for the europeans to follow in the u.s. footsteps and he was in fact roundly rebuffed the u.s. with this decision has definitely isolated itself once again doesn't that make it harder for her to do his job of getting peace through the only question was never going to succeed anyway i totally agree with what susan said i mean come on donald trump going to create peace in the middle east. but not even jesus could do it just like no no he failed miserably now look that's not going to happen so so just to come back to europe i am by no means sure that europe will that no european embassies will be moved to go to jerusalem i think the hug areas might i think the poles might end if only to stop the germans i mean you know that's no one's wants to do israel a face. no want to do the jewish that no one wants to the palestinians a favor it's not about that right quite right trump has his political agenda so
that gary and so to the poles so to the czechs this is the tragedy of the middle east this this is the tragedy everyone's everyone's cooking their own a pot of stew on the fire of that conflict but that as i say i do i'm very i would be very surprised if no european country actually followed the usa very surprised fact is that there's going to want to talk about peace because there is no state of equilibrium where there is an occupier which is israel and an occupied with the palestinians and the fact is that the one party that can make a difference who can actually end this conflict tomorrow by ending the by ending their occupation of palestine is not doing it all they are doing is perpetuating the occupation they have been doing it on an accelerated basis ever since the peace process the modern peace process started to dread in one thousand nine hundred one and what trump is doing trump does not care i completely agree that one does not
care about israel jared cushion or as a supporter of settlements i mean he is giving donations to two right wing you legal settlements really going to trust this guy the fact is trump is playing to his base he's trying to deflect from his domestic problems and the investigation that we come back who can change it the european union could change it by putting sanctions on israel because they are the largest trade and i want i want to ask you a bit about europe later on but let me ask you now about the arab states will in all of this because you said in your opening statement that the u.s. is essentially taking itself out of the game out of the ability to be an even handed arbiter it seems that many sunni arab states would agree with you they said at this week's summit in turkey that they think the whole thing should be put in the u.n. hands that the u.s. essentially. isn't qualified any more on the other hand we've seen the u.s.
recently cozying up to saudi arabia ad and we have seen interestingly enough a rapprochement between israel and a number of moderate arab states including also saudi arabia so looking just at riyadh politike how important are the palestinians really to the rest of the arab world aren't they perfectly ready to sacrifice palestinian interests in this for the sake of a broad front against iran oh i can i can clearly i can answer that very quickly because the arab leaders especially the ones who are supported by the west. i have absolutely no love for palestinians or palestine the same ones who are supported by the chinese and the russians the same thing goes for them here talking about the leadership however the people of the arab world and the people of the a slum accords and an extra high number of christians also arab christians care very deeply about the palestinians and very deeply about jerusalem now whether as
a reporter between saudi arabia the united states i mean they're one of the same i wonder why we're calling saudi arabia a moderate state when it is the most reactionary of all of the arab countries we support exactly do you think susan susan do you think that this move by donald trump saudi arabia has said a few somewhat strict things since he made the announcement do you think that this could cool off that budding friendship between donald trump and his sword dancing hosts look i'm not privy to what they said to each other in private so i have absolutely no idea i agree with alan and that the interest of the palestinians has always come last on these leaders plate so so i don't know. i really do want to say something though because you didn't identify me in the in the beginning i am not just a jew i am also
a citizen of the state of israel where i lived for five years and was professor at televisa of university and i am saying this as someone who not only knows something about the middle east but is some one who is committed to being a jew and committed to there being a just peace and the existence of the state of israel but i'm a jew who goes back to the prophets. and thinks about universal justice which has been sorely missed. singh in the state of israel for a very long time so thank you very much and in fact israel's claim to jerusalem also goes back to the time of the prophets as we know there are multiple claims to the city of jerusalem the un said this week that it stands by its position that status of jerusalem must be determined through
a comprehensive solution negotiated between the two sides u.n. resolutions going back decades aim to resolve the completing claims competing claims to jerusalem. jerusalem is a holy city for three world religions the jews have the wailing wall here muslims the dome of the rock and i'll ask some honest and christians the church of the holy sepultura these sides are only a few hundred meters and yet worlds apart. the cities current status is a consequence of the six day war in one nine hundred sixty seven when israel occupied the cities eastern part and in one nine hundred eighty annexed it. both israelis and palestinians claim jerusalem as their capital the international community has refrained from taking a clear position. no country has opened an embassy in jerusalem so far.
who can lay claim to jerusalem. un declaration this week reiterated what the u.n. has said in fact for decades namely that jerusalem is a final status issue by that they mean it is a matter to be decided at the end of negotiations rather than before they've actually even gotten underway so when tactical terms isn't this rather an odd move by the great deal maker donald trump who in fact as susan said earlier in the program is giving away the very thing that might be able to extract concessions from israel at the very outset. well look first donald trump isn't a great deal maker. secondly he's not giving anything away because drew saddam has been the capital of israel since one thousand nine hundred fifty everyone who's ever gone to israel every head of state including arab heads of
state including when he came in his historic mission to forge peace between israel and egypt a peace which is lost to the present day by the way. he spoke in the knesset in jerusalem so. the question there is no question that this is the capital and if there ever was a question that has been decided by history whether jerusalem can be young that also the capital of a palestinian state that is something which indeed should and must remain open for the reasons that you stated it is of course very important for arab national nationalism and they have the palaces have a right to it to a state of their own and they have a right to a capital city and why should it not be in jerusalem that this whole question isn't it has nothing to do with what donald trump as a say not the great deal maker did what he did was say let's not get all this don't
pretend that i have anything to give away let's not pretend that the that will ever be in question that israel's capital is jerusalem let's get on to the real issues and i think he's right he may not see them in the same light as we do but he's right so two aspects that i'd like to pick up on taking the latter one first come the trumpet ministration doesn't fact say that its decision doesn't necessarily predetermine jerusalem's final borders or its status could the eastern part of the state is city still indeed become the capital of a palestinian state or would you say that that is at least in reality no longer to the. the problem is that east jerusalem is being strangled by israel this entire time is being strangled off with settlements it is being encircled east jerusalem residents are being kicked out they are not being allowed into their home so
troublous a.o.l. some point out in the future maybe a palestinian state if you want to do something sort of equal handily he could have said west jerusalem is the comparable of israel and east jerusalem be the consul of the future palestinian state then i would have said well you know what that's an interesting thing that's acceptable but this whole thing of reality this whole canard the fact is that might does not make right and kuwait is not the nineteenth province of iraq either and we went to war for that if you can let me pick up on that that was the first point that alan made and that's essentially this long long argument about facts on the ground versus law so susan outed herself a moment ago out myself too i studied law and my first legal essay for the international law journal at harvard university was on the status of jerusalem because it had just been annexed officially by israel so i say this with some
pain. the fact is international law is often recognised more in the breach than anywhere else so does it matter yeah it does matter because. jerusalem is the most symbolic piece of the conflict and. my. lawyers and my family to i didn't become one but i had they were good lawyers and so i respect the fact my uncle was professor video that the law at harvard so i respect you know very much the things that international lawyers can do i understand. that it's fairly little but what we have. i've now is. no functioning international law my own preference would be that jerusalem be an international city is of great holy significance to three different religions that would be where i would go for how one ever gets to that is another problem
that i don't want to discuss but it makes a gigantic symbolic difference as hakim said if he had said to capitals for two peoples i've been oh who would have agreed although it's not my absolutely preferred situation but he did not do that we have just a few minutes remaining so let me ask all of you to address the two state solution we heard the chief negotiator for the palestinians saying after this decision this is the death knell for the two state solution it's never going to happen do you think that's true alan posner the europeans say that still their preferred path forward are they clinging to an illusion. no i'd just the two state solution has to happen because it's the only solution which gives the palestinians at least part of what they want. and gives neighbors israel to remain as the jewish and democratic state. in the sense that it's the home of the jewish people know the
sense that it's a religious state not unlike iran which is an islamic state so and it's interesting to talk about iran that the one state which refuses the two state solution is iran itself because iran thinks if we had one state palestine the jews would be marginalized they'd be a minority they'd be swamped then and we'd have situation like in lebanon or in syria and so on that's what they want so it's obvious the two state solution has to happen and that this this this fact remains whether mr trump says that jerusalem is the capital of recognizes that jerusalem is the capital of israel or not whether anyone recognizes it or not this has to happen i did will happen but it won't happen tomorrow it won't happen in a year and it won't happen in five years is a palestinian state really still feasible given that patchwork that has been created by the settlements or with the palestinians be better off at this point simply saying we want equal rights within one state i personally believe that
israel has very much succeeded in killing the two state solution there is no more land any more and i personally for one truly believe in the one state solution because i believe in democracy i believe in a modern western liberal democracy were countries where it citizens whether it be drew muslim christian or atheist or who was one man and one vote and if israel claims to be a democracy than it should say we want the settlements on the subtler says like i say fine let everybody live where they want to live that we can all over the last we can all share will make one hell of a country together but israel doesn't want that israel doesn't want it doesn't it says it wants a two state solution yet it build settlements. everyone precludes this i can only agree with. my friends who are on the ground there in. israel and palestine and actively working on you know have the same view i mean actively working for
a just peace and then to the occupation. you know saying there's no lands left on which to build what would be a coherent decent independent state. but i agree and push me also with i don't see that the state of israel is moving in any direction that would help. thank you very much to all of you for being with us today thanks to you out there for tuning in see you soon.
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