tv Risk and Reward With Deidre Bolton FOX Business November 12, 2015 5:00pm-6:01pm EST
getting a lot of emails. public school isn't free. we pay taxes. we're becoming greece. a bunch entitled morons, the list goes on. our viewers are interested this story. >> really true. that drives me crazy. it is not free. saying i don't want to pay for it. i want you to pay for it. david: we all pay for it. "risk & reward" starts now. deirdre: of any other country in the world the u.s. government is asking facebook for the most data. welcome to "risk & reward." i'm deirdre bolton. your privacy is front and center. the government is requesting your subscriber information, i.p. addresses, contents, including online posts. former senator evan bayh with me now. served on the intelligence committee in addition to serving his state. senator, glad to have you here. >> great to be with you. deirdre: facebook is or rather the u.s. is the number one country in the world by far asking facebook to share data. now a lot of is in the context
of search warrants, subpoenas, in other words to help law enforcement. do you see that as difference helping law enforcement or is privacy, privacy? >> needs to be some of both, deirdre. not surprising the united states would be number one. we have more facebook users than the other countries. we face a unique set of security threats at this point in time. drive sy is essential. we have to protect the public. safety is job one. for average viewer highly unlikely the government is asking for your information. deirdre: staying with a tech sense sieve topic, marco rubio echoed that tuesday night at fox news debate. >> mainstream media is going around saying it was greatest week in hillary clinton campaign. it was the week she got exposed as a liar. >> when i look at somebody like hillary clinton, who, who sits
there and tell her daughter and government official that, no, this was terrorist attack, and then tells everybody else, that it was a video, where i came from, they call that a lie. deirdre: the fbi is expanding its probe of hillary clinton's emails from her tenure as secretary of state. of course in regards to what happened in benghazi. so, senator, what do you make of the fbi launching this independent, classification review? as somebody who served on the intelligence committee, what does this say to you? >> fbi is being very thorough. this was sent some time ago. it takes on a life of its own. they will check all the boxes an follow all the leads and make the ultimate decision. this one thing reported today whether there has was materially misleading statements made that would waste the fbi's time, sent them off on wild goose chase, that sort of thing. i even think hillary clinton's critics don't think she is stupid.
that would be stupid thing to do to intentionally mislead the fbi. i don't think this line of inquiry will not go any wear but we'll see. deirdre: what do you make ever the nda, non-disclosure agreement, i'm sure you had to do it too, if you're handing any kind of sensitive information you have to say i will not knowingly release any sensitive information. i know my role as public servant. did that strike you as significant or not. >> she said it was mistakes setting up the personal system. that she knowingly, were mistakes made, technical things, maybe so, but actually knowingly compromising national security. i have a hard time believing the fbi will ultimately conclude that. deirdre: as somebody i might add on advisory board for the cia you know the intelligence challenges that we have present day. if you were to give one piece of advice, even if it is just spend
more money on this for god's sakes what is it? >> advice to your viewers or to the government? deirdre: to the government. >> to the government. we need to work on human intelligence. we're very good at electronic sort of things we were talking about before, but old-fashioned spy work of recruiting people and training them putting them in sensitive places we're getting better at that and we still have a way to go. deirdre: you still think there is value investing in humans versus machines in this intelligence race we have essentially? >> no question about it. you need a holistic approach. you need to do the electronic stuff. there is still places for good old-fashioned spy work. in today's world, deirdre, we're too reliant and juror dadeians and -- jordanians and allies, and they have agendas of their own. would be getter if we have our own independent sources of information in some of these countries. >> senator, great to see you. thank you for your time and insight.
former senator from indiana, evan bayh. staying on gop issues, one gop candidate sound a lot like a democrat about views of big banks. >> that is why i propose tough actions to end the abuses by the big banks and the excessive risk and so-called shadow banking system! >> would you bail out the big banks again? nobody gave you an answer to that i will give you an answer. absolutely not. >> the banks have to reserve capital so that the people who own the capital start pressuring the banks to not take these risky approaches. deirdre: with me now a founding partner of the private equity firm bain capital. he worked closely with former presidential candidate mitt romney. he is also the author of, "unintended consequences." it is a great read. i have to read you the subtitle. it is so good. why everything you were told about the economy is wrong. i love this book. ed, great to see you.
as far as the view from society, how should our banks be, big and boring like utilities or risk-takers, where do you fall? >> i certainly think they should be big and boring and not big risk-takers but i think it is crazy to think we can't bail out banks or shouldn't bail out banks. banks are inherently unstable. every economist knows that. you saw jimmy stewart in it's a wonderful life. the money is not sitting in bank waiting for you to withdraw it. it is loaned out to homeowners taking 30 days to put back. if you make banks sell loans at a fire-sale they all go bankrupt. we will let you withdraw, panic subsides, put money back in. we put the money into the incinerator and burn it, the crisis is over. easy to solve and expensive to solve it by not bailing out banks. deirdre: you're saying the government did do the right thing but stepping in? >> we invented the federal
reserve to be the lender of last resort. you even saw ted cruz after he made all the statements say, well there is room for the fed as lender of last resort to bail themselves out. he knows all the rhetoric, i think conserve activities, i am conservative make following mistake. they think free market principles alone apply to banks. they don't understand banking is highly unstable unlike rest of economy which is stable. that is why we have so much banking regulation. we know banks are inherently unstable. there will be times that fed has to step in as lender of last resort to save them from inherent instability. deirdre: had the banks collapsed there would be rioting in the streets at very least. >> suffering unnecessary damage to the economy will is going to last for years by not taking, people don't realize, banks lost very little money on aaa loans, secured loans. the government made a profit bailing out banks. so when we talk about the cost of the bailout, which is not the say there isn't moral hazard and
other issues, there actually is very little cost to having bailed out banks. i have a lot of this in the book by the way. not changing my view. deirdre: we'll wait until it is finished. we have to ask you before we let you go, you know all about income inequality, one of the subjects you're working on now for the book. deeper examination. which candidates has the best tax plan for the u.s.? >> i would have to say jeb bush. deirdre: okay. >> there are other tax plans similar to is had. i think what most of these plans do is blow a huge whole in the budget. i agree they will make the economy grow faster but takes a long time for the economy to grow faster. i don't think you get to stand up on the stage to say you want to have more military spending then at same time blow a huge hole in the budget that will last for quite some time. you have to decide what the priority is. if your priority is faster growth in the long run, which is my priority. i'm all for cutting taxes.
you also have to cut spending or can't raise it in a time when you will suffer through this circumstance where you're not generating as much tax revenue as economy will produce in the long run. deirdre: ed, i know you're writing a book. you have to keep taking writing breaks to come back. thanks for joining me there. thank you in the meantime for the time. ed con farred. speaking of presidential candidates, rick santorum officially filing to get on new hampshire's ballot today. my next guest says his tax plan is getting overlooked. >> we need a tax code, i propose a 20% flat tax. 20% on corporations. 20% on individuals. full expensing which will be powerful for manufacturing. 0% rate initially for manufacturers. we'll have put powerful tax code. we'll do something about regulation. we'll suspend every obama regulation that costs over $100,000 to the economy.
we have to do something about training and employing people sitting on the sidelines because they don't see a path. we have bureaucracy in washington, president in washington even among republicans who thinks everybody has to go to college. deirdre: that was rick santorum. of course one of his many fans is with me now and backers i should say as well. foster friess. thank you so much, sir, for joining me. i know you're a big believer in santorum's tax plan. we just heard it there. 20% flat tax, personal and corporate. even if it's a good idea is this possible? >> well i think the interesting thing, deeder a, is the -- deirdre, the tax plan got accolades from steve moore, steve forbes, grover norquist, art laffer. these are the giants in american tax policy they not only endorsed it but praised it. i don't know what they said about the other plans.
it is interesting no one really highlighted the features of rick's plan and all the other points that he has made. he seems to be like a demolition derby with his car speeding around the outside while the rest are smashing each other. hopefully that will give him firepower once the air clears a little bit. deirdre: fossor, you're clearly a believer but why is this plan even healthy for small businesses? >> well, number one, small business, if you buy a typewriter or bunch of pencils or anything that actually has depreciation, pencils don't, if something is deappreciateed, you can deappreciate first year. this is opportunity to invest in equipment and not worry about the complication and depreciation schedules that reduces taxes first year. that is very, very powerful for small businesses. deirdre: what was your number 1:00 take away, fossor, since we have you from the big debate on tuesday night?
>> i think the takeaway in the undercard, christie seemed to make a move. he probably made more progress on the undercard than he was on the main stage. and i think, i'm hopeful that could happen for rick santorum too. once people get better idea of the various candidates positions. but what was a little bit distressing frankly, while more substantive than other ones there still hasn't been opportunity to express people's point much view. rand paul is getting applause from black audiences for his justice reform ideas. that hasn't come to light because seems like they spend too much time talking about each other rather than how they want to make the country better. i think the more they get that message out, the better we're all going to be. deirdre: you want details, you are right, sir. meantime, thank you for your time. foster friess joining me there. fox business's republican debate breaking records tuesday night. some of you were pretty excited.
[. [applause] ] [applause] deirdre: that was video after the kansas city royals after they won the world series. but we were that happy. lou dobbs as well, he is with me next. we'll talk about a few different components. meaty subjects from that debate indeed. back in a minute. >> the stuff they did was really brutal. it could never happen today. >> i have heard it both ways. her good reports, bad reports. we would do it in very humane way. >> i back you on the wall. i back you. but i also don't think you could deport these people because the federal courts would stop you. >> do you remember when you said about the anchor babies there is nothing you can can do about it and i said yes there is. i was right bit. >> no, you weren't.
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deirdre: it was a record for fox business, 13 1/2 million viewers. the republican presidential debate right here tuesday night. lou dobbs was there. he is with me now. lou, wonderful to see you back. welcome home. >> glad to be back. deirdre: what was the best part of being there for you? >> the best part was the candidates to go after the issues and intelligent debate with moderators and candidates and producers of the broadcast, when they gave the candidates 90 seconds to respond, it made all the difference in the world. deirdre: it cast clean, it was orderlily, to your point candidates actually had time to talk about their points of view and give substance. >> intelligent conversation, no matter where, always makes for
great television. they had super conversation. a little flame and little fireworks. deirdre: speaking of fireworks, here we go. donald trump touting a controversial 1950s style deportation model that would remove 11 million -- >> who knew? deirdre: who knew dot, dot, dot, from this country. he chatted with maria bartiromo earlier this morning. let's listen in. >> i mean to have young kids using that kind of language is a disgrace, and it is totally backfired. people are actually going wild bit. they're saying now we're going to support trump. anybody that would do an ad like that is stupid to be honest. they're stupid people that would do an ad like that. deirdre: so, lou, that was actually about the ad, you remember with mexican-americans -- >> hispanic children who were, using children to attack donald trump, with profanity, vulgarity. it was despicable and as trump
says, that backfired, not only for the attacks against trump but for the hispanic activists in the country who may have been mute as you noted since. it was, that despicable. deirdre: so, lou, as far as what he said about his immigration policy, he says, i get -- quoting him here, biggest standing ovations when i go to different places. texas this week, arenas with thousands of people, when i say i will build a wall and create a border, that we'll create a actual border but is this plan realistic? >> to build a wall? most certainly. think about what you're asking. deirdre: to deport 11 million people. >> of a man who made billions of dollars building. you're asking world's only superpower could we possibly do something? we put men on the moon for crying out loud. deirdre: but 11 million people as part of the equation though? >> i understand. people have to stop to ask themselves as premise, what are we as people capable of, before
we get to the point where we want to do as matter of political choice. the answer is, we has a great nation are capable of doing whatever we decide. and until people remember that's who we are and with we can do, it highlights some of the problems that afflict our society right now. deirdre: that is, as you say, good to remember. we're capable of anything. >> if you're asking me are we capable of building a wall? hell yes. do we want to build a wall? what nation that is fighting a global war on terror would leave its borders and its ports absolutely unprotected, undefended and insecure? who would do that, irrespective issues? deirdre: about the 11 million people -- >> deported? deirdre: or some of candidates have spoken about, if you come here legally or even illegally but you pay a fee, you're working, paying your taxes -- >> i don't know what you're trying to accomplish.
deirdre: meaning what is that. >> i'm asking you, what does that do? deirdre: well in some cases it may keep families together which is one of the concerns. on is may, since we're talking about the american identity, provide for this idea of we're all a nation of immigrants? >> well, i guess that's true. i didn't emigrate here. my forbearers did. immigration is critically important. no nation on earth brings as many immigrants legally as does the united states. no three nations brings in as many, no six. to put us in standing we're compassionate welcoming country of immigrants. we're proud of it. that doesn't mean we open ourselves and citizenship to people who demand it. it is important for people to say listen to trump in particular -- by the way senator marco rubio today joining him talking about the necessity to deport illegal immigrants in this country. i mean that is a remarkable shift on the part of rubio, is
it not? now you have rubio, you have trump, you have others in this field. personally, i look at this as a journalist and observer of both trump, society and this economy. and a student of history. i think trump has almost single-handedly changed the initial bargaining position in this country with those who have affronted our laws, crossed our border illegally, and who now have activist groups amongst them that are behaving as if they have some sort of entitlement to treasures that are beyond the reach of most people who have been in line for, as long as decade to enter lawfully. we have to, if we're going to embrace our values we have, to, i believe, to be certain that we enforce our laws and that we make certain that we're honoring those who are coming here lawfully before we oblige those who came here unlawfully. deirdre: in fairness to him, as you rightly point out, did make
that point. it is unfair to everybody else who is following the law. >> by the way, we could be unfair to them. reality is, he changed initial bargaining position in this debate. now the american people and our elected representatives have to decide the direction. it will not be decided by activists. it will not be decided by handful of candidates, i think it would be terrific idea if they just give that decision over to us in the media, but i really think it is an exhilarating change of circumstance and potential. deirdre: it is great to talk about something that is important which goes back to your initial point which is we are talking about the issues that matter for -- >> think about this. we're talking about reforming social security. these candidates are grassping the third rail of politics where people didn't have guts to do it. illegal immigration, border security. the war on terror. they're discussing whether or not we should be in syria or whether -- they're talking real issues. they didn't do that in 2012.
deirdre: no. >> and that has, i think that's a basis for hope and optimism if you will. deirdre: all right. lou dobbs, it is wonderful to see you. >> great to see you, deirdre. deirdre: thanks for stopping by. lou do, 7:00 p.m. eastern time right here on the fox business network. >> thanks. deirdre: as you know, the dow lost 250 points. fox business debate ratings, record highs. we'll speak with conrad black with his impressions of the debate next. ♪ [shouting] but what if you could see more of what you wanted to know? with fidelity's new active trader pro investing platform, the information that's important to you is all in one place, so finding more insight is easier. it's your idea
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safer, no, i know that the world's safer and better place when america is the strongest military power in the world. wo. deirdre: my next guest said that marco rubio won the debate. conrad black is with me now. i know you are a big supporter of rubio. you think he won, sounds as if tuesday night reinforced that in your brain? >> i admire a number of the candidates. i think he won that exchange. i respect senator paul in many ways, but he is coming at it from the wrong angle, i am get so old i go back to president eisenhower saying that cost of victory in the cold war is high, and the cost of defeat is everything. you don't start by saying how much can we afford. you start by defining national security interest. what is essential, you set aside resources needed for
that, if there is a budgetary problem you deal with it but en tightment reform, and consumption taxes, you don't start with, how much money have we got? deirdre: you mentioned eisenhower. i have to go to what donald trump said, i like ike, he is a nice guy, high also -- he also deported quite a number of people in the 1950s, what do you think of that aggressive immigration reform? >> in fairness, donald is a friend of mine, i have great like and admiration for him, but i don't think he is going to get there by suggesting you is just evict 11 million people, the idea was not controlling your borders and sitting there for decade while these people came in and everyone knew they were coming in,is an outrage.
but you can't throw them all out, there is some compromise to be made, president eisenhower did support some people, donald did over play that. he was not elected because he was a nice guy at a hamburger roast, he was a five-star general. deirdre: donald trump was as candidates have to be sometimes trying to form andly say -- let's say frame his discussion. but you made the point that my colleague lou dobbs made, it is unfair to let illegal il immigrants stay in this country, when there are so many having been lined up for decade, filling out their paperwork and waiting. >> lou is right, this is a complex issue, but lou is right, you cannot punish the law abiding, in favare or of those who speak across or
force their way across or manipulated by elements. it is got to be cleaned up, but it is more complicated than donald says, but i do agree, i don't have you know video of your show, where i am, so, i don't know if lou who said it but one of people just a few moments ago said that you know really, the united states cannot as a great nation continue this way. and that is certainly true. deirdre: let me ask you this, someone who is in charge of a large media empire. which candidates, so far, makes the most sense to you for the business community? >> the ones who have been most -- if we're just talking from that criterrian, the ones who have been mostic place it and sensible in the tax side, in there i think that there is a good competition, but i would say, former governor bush has
been good, governor christie as been good, senator rubio, donald's plan such as it was, was good but it was not all that detailed. but of it good as far add it went. i think mrs. fiorina is making a mistake not putting forward a serious plan. she is a very arcti ar -- articulate person, but from a strictly commercial stand point what you would be most interested in. deirdre: indeed, all she said, she wants it to be three pages, shy is articulate and a good thinker, comeback soon, lord conrad black joining me with his thoughts. >> thank you. deirdre: speaking of carly fiorina saying that socialism starts when government tries to fix a problem is created. i'm going to ask my next
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homeownership is part of a dream, let's create a bubble then government stepped in. deirdre: i am here with chairman of peeble corporation. don peeble thank you for coming in, is carly fiorina right? >> no, she wrong. most of loans that created the problems were the unregulated ones issue the low document loans, that crisis hit all income levels. you had high income earners who were getting no incom in come verification loans. deirdre: no one knows real estate market in this country better than you. you have developments that are commercial, residential, you are in dc, washington, new york, l.a., miami. what role does government have in housing?
what role should government have? >> i think that role is regulating what we build, making sure that the structures are safe, and conforming to zoning. on the buy side, the consumer is a consumer of loans, and i think that regulation should be imposed. there is a lot of regulation in place now that have lending guidelines to what ratios a person's income can be utilized. we need regulation on access to credit the for consumers, so consumers don't gamble with their money and taxpayer money. deirdre: just make decisions for which you, at chafe! atlanta whatever part -- at whatever part you play in the process can be held accountable. >> there should be a consequence, if you can't pay your mortgage, you should lose your home, and be accountable for the financial loss. deirdre: next to your business success. you are community leader, chairman on the board of directors of a black caucus foundation, have you fought
for years for equal opportunity for minority, women, i want your take on comes that chris christie may they'd this morning, said he will not take a meeting with members of the black lives matter mov movement, quote, i think all lives matter, when a movement like that calls for a murder of the police officer, no president of the united states should dignify anything like that by saying anything positive about them. >> i thought quite a bait o -- bit on the positive side of governor crist's' comes on addiction for example, this comment he is wrong othat is like saying no one will meet with southern republican because of comments of one southern republican makes on race. deirdre: you can't use a broad brush? >> of course, not, the black lives matter movement is more than just a few people, this is a loosely knit movement
from the country, of all races, by the way, saying that african-americans, are experiencing a crises economically, educationaly and terms of brutality at the hands of law enforcement and their lives matter, they are the lives that in jeopardy, you look at mainstream lives of americans their lives are not in jeopardy, he is missing the point. deirdre: since that shooting of the unarmed african-american teen in ferguson, missouri, which 2014, since then seems as if racial tension is as big as social issue as ever. >> it has, it is. unfortunately, i think a lot has to do with political environment fueling that kind of tension. i say that on both sides of aisle. >> all right now speaking of politics. "new york post" reporting former nypd commissioner a kelly may be open to the idea of running for mayor.
you have also been known to consider the position. >> absolutely, i am giving strong considering to running for mayor of new york city, i would bring a forward looking approach to government, not retrospect, the problem with the current mayor is running out of pet respeckive government, he came out of the same government of that kelly came up, they are fine people but that was in 1990s, we're getting read to go to 2017 with a new mayor, we need machine who knows how to lead -- we need someone who know how to lead. deirdre: i want to know one thing that you would do right off the bat for new york city. >> new york city, safer, i be honest with the public. with new yorkers and tell truth about public safety and where the dangers in the economy is and tell them the lack of opportunity they are facing, but number one thing is tell new yorkers the truth, i would not lie. deirdre: here, hire, very good to have a conversation, thank you, sir, don peebles joining me there.
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grandchildren, a movie star, a legendary artist and author, pat boone, do you sympathize with the protesters. >> no. i do not. i52if one of my kids were there i would call student home, i am not paying for you to go to a school you disrupt everything, and think you can takeover, free education would be nice, i worked my way through high school, my brother and i am did construct work, and dug ditches so we could go to a christian high school. then i worked my way through college. grat graduated from columbia, i was on cover of tv guide at my graduation because of the way my career had taken off,
but i went from digging ditches to doing local tv shows and working my way through. the idea that students come to a school, how do they think that the schools got built in with taxpayer money, a lot of time parents donating, and they are going to take over for nothing? and want free education. that is not democracy, that is not mutual. america. deirdre: you are an outlier, for this generation, college debt sometimes runs to hundreds of thousands of dollars, and economy has changed for a lot of kids that are graduating now, they can't get jobs to pay it off, do you think we need to take that unconsidering. >> it has to be taken under considering.
i helped all of my 16 grand kids go to cling, there are a number of student loans contributing to, that what is it -- >> 1.2 trillion. >> i'm not just paying off the debt. because they got the education. they are getting jobs, most of them, not all of them have got good jobs yet, they are working. not at the jobs they trained for. this is a tough economy. and i am doing my best like, many of these conservatives, republican candidates, to try to better the economy so that school costs will not be so high, and there can be jobbed to help payoff the loans, it is appropriate and i think it is for the students, that the government will help them go to school then they can payoff the loans overtime. now if we can, let them the
loans, but remember, the loans help pay there are the universities, and colleges where they are getting that education. it is not free, they didn't build the schools from nothing. they have to be paid for. and the tuition is one of the ways that the schools get paid for, and it condition to exist. -- can continue to exist. deirdre: pat boone, we're so pleased to have you with us, thank you, you are welcome any time. >> thank you. deirdre: when we compaq come back, minimum wage taken to the streets, the protests for, on that issue. a texas ceo is fighting for it, boosting his staff's minimum wage to $15, he is high guest afterthis. -- he is my guest after this.
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>> every time we raise the minimum wage, the number of jobless peoples increases. >> you make people more expensive than a machine, that means that automation will be accelerated. >> i would not a the minimum. deirdre: 3 of 8 republican candidates onstage tuesday night, said, a higher mandatory minimum wage will hurt the u.s. economy. my gift disagrees, the first start up ceo to offer a $15 per hour minimum wage for all workers, matthew george with me now. thank you for the time, your company bridge creates transit smart cities, you are based in boston, did you make this decision because you are in a college town? >> we're not in a college town
we're in one of best cities in world, where there are hundreds of thousands of people who need to get around the city on a day i basis. we need to be able to drive them, a better product and a better service. we deal with drivers, who are making there career. they use driving and they use their profession to feed their families and contribute back to boston, and they are our neighbors. we decided for our drivers that go to $15 men yow -- minimum wage because it is the right thing to do by our workforce. deirdre: a $15 per hour, what were they making before? average total driver in boston makes between $9 and $11, we made sort of much higher. but as we're growing we have doubled in size, we decided all existing drivers and new
drivers added too sim, will be above, that at $15 with full benefits. deirdre: what does that do to your bottom line? you are a successful start up, you are still a start up. you probably need more flexible fee than a company that is more mature? >> sure. so, once again, i don't think that $15 minimum wage is the necessarily the right program for every business. but for us there a huge cost in drivers turning over, and drivers that don't stick with us, by doing the right thing by the drivers, we're also doing the right thing by our business by insuring a great experience for our customers. deirdre: what do you hear from tech community. >> nothing. that is really surprising to me, tech community for a long time has beenan extended mid life crisis for a force generation of sort of folks who created a lot of wealth in technology community.
we have seen is this crazy world where thing like not paying people even a legal minimum wage, not providing people protection that is fundamental to our values in u.s. is do common place, that is why we're stepping out front to try to lead the conversation to do the right thing, and the just and equit able thing. deirdre: is was great talking to you. matthew george with us. come back, please. deirdre: a quick reminder, tune in to "strange inheritance," a new season has gun, tonight -- degun, tonight, 9 p.m. eastern time right here on fox business.
>> i think thinking you am sure have a bigfoot, loch ness monster signed baseball as well. deirdre: tonight, that is jamie colby with "strange inheritance," thank you for joining us here on "risk & reward." mainmaine -- making money starts now. >> a lot of news today. donald trump said if he is elected president he will send out a d port -- deportation force. and highlighting massive divide among candidates as sparks are still flying next a secret russia nuclear torpedo blueprint leaked to media in russia. now in development. the question is, are we on vernl overge of a super