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tv   Risk and Reward With Deidre Bolton  FOX Business  November 18, 2015 5:00pm-6:01pm EST

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>> turkey soccer fans booing during moment of silence. david: many fans shouting out "allahu akbar!," which means god is great. according to multiple reports. what can you say? "risk & reward" starts right now gun. [gunfire] deirdre: 5,000 rounds fired. an apartment complex in suburbs of paris turning into near war zone as police hunt down terrorists responsible for friday es attacks. breaking right now, everyone, we're awaiting on word from paris prosecutor whether the mastermind behind this attack was killed in the raid. meanwhile seven subjects have been arrested. welcome to "risk & reward."
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i'm trish regan in for deirdre bolton. as intelligence officials undown members of isis, americans across the country are questioning why our president wants to bring 10,000 refugees from syria into america less than six weeks from now. we'll have more in a moment. first i want to get you back to breaking headlines, authorities in honduras say they have arrested five syrian nationals who were attempting to travel to the united states using stolen greek passports. french police are widening their manhunt to include another fugitive they say took part in attacks in paris as new details emerge about organizing of the plot in days before the onslaught. back here at home, 30 governors say they will not accept refugees into their states. the president, they say is poe lit -- politicizing this. he is arguing that republicans lack compassion. listen to this. he -- >> apparently they're scared of widows and orphans coming into
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the united states of america as part of our tradition of compassion. trish: all right. of course terrorism isn't sexist. it was after all female suicide bomber setting off her vest as a police dog entered during the paris raid this morning. for more on these refugees, and what we need to do right now to contain isis in this serious threat, joining me is retired major general robert scales. general, welcome to the program. >> hi, trish. trish: albeit under unfortunate circumstances here. let me tell you, i'm idealistic as the next person, general, but right now we're facing a pretty serious reality. what do we do about these refugees of whom we are certained about we need to make sure they have good futures but is it necessarily here we want to be doing that, given the threat of isis and their promise to populate these refugee groups
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with jihadists? >> trish if this 10,000 contained sort of incidental warriors, the odd young man who sort of, who sort of turns himself into a terrorist that would be one thing. or if they escape across the border from honduras or mexico as we've seen to enter texas, but the problem, trish, is what if this is an isis campaign? what if this is a well-thought out, carefully orchestrated, precisely planned operation to infiltrate skilled, ruthless, professional killers into our country? i'm talking about bomb-makers, electronics experts, cyber warriors? all the skills that makes isis so dangerous. what if there is a plan to put these young men into that 10,000, or to infiltrate them over the border. that is entirely different thing. trish: why should they? to your point they said they
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were going to do it. why wouldn't there be that plan there? it's obviously impossible to figure out exactly who is who. some people made the point, well we should take in christians but not necessarily muslims. i think the challenge is, you can't necessarily know who is christian, who is muslim. the bottom line they're syrian and we're sort of giving them this open door. we just saw, general, today, the in turkey, eight individuals there were arrested. >> right. trish: they are suspected of trying to create terror attacks. they were trying to get into germany by none other than than syrian passports. >> yeah, just think about this. think of poor germany, we're fighting over 10,000. the germans have accepted 800,000. and don't you think that isis has a plan? don't you think they have an operation that they worked on for a while? don't you think they're using refugees flows to get these terrorists in? here's the other thing, what about the other refugees, the other 800,000 who are perhaps not terrorists.
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have he ever heard of an instance where a concerned citizen, a concerned syrian has turned someone he expects to be a terrorist? no. i tell you, this is a recipe for disaster. germany, france, the e.u., eventually the united states will feel the hard hand of isis and it is going to be a plan. it is not going to be incidental, trish. trish: one of the concerns of course is that homeland security is out, the oversight committee, the house oversight committee and one of the points they make, they cite, actual obama administration, cis official who said, 90% of the syrians who apply to be refugees here in the united states right now, we have nearly 2,000 of them currently, have been given, given refugee status. in other words we're taking 90% of the people who are applying, which seems like, rather high amount. >> yep. trish: this same official basically said there is no way
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because of the problems you have trying to vet them, you can actually really, truly insure they do not have these links? >> an fbi agent i spoke to the other day, said it takes, 10, 10 fbi agents to put together a 24/7 surveillance on suspected terrorist. now, if there is 50, that's doable. if there is 5000 or 6,000 and they're trained by isis and properly indoctrinated by isis leadership how to avoid fbi and lie about their stat does -- by the way did you know over 80% of the refugees moving into germany are young men from age of 25? trish: you talk about 800,000 refugees, angela merkel is taking into germany. i just wonder, general, they're on path to get to german
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citizenship, if they get the german passport can they come here the next day? i can go to berlin tomorrow, one of the beauties of our relationship we don't have visas you can apply for. you can go back and force. >> right. trish: what kind of risk does that put us in, even if we say no? if europe says yes do we run certain risks done down the road? >> trish, i was in germany two weeks ago. it is easiest thing. they just checked my passport. i didn't even fill out a customs declaration. it is seamless. once they get that, not german, the e.u. passport, they can go anywhere from britain to poland without ever being stopped. germany becomes sort of a nesting ground. it becomes the training ground. it becomes exporter of terrorism. it is not about germany, trish. it is about all of europe and eventually our own country and it is scary. trish: it is indeed. major general scales, thank you so much for being here tonight.
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>> thank you, trish. trish: urning to news out of turkey, turkish fans booing moment of silence for paris victims during last night's soccer game versus greece. listen to this. [shouting] trish: you know, also apparently you heard cries of "allahu akbar!," god is great there in the crowd. there is issue here. there is issue, not seeing enough of a outcry from the muslim community. this is increasingly part of the problem. someone who has been very outspoken about this and need for more muslims to come out and condemn this kind of behavior, american islamic forum for democracy very own dr. saudi jasser. grade to have you back with me. you are a muslim. you are frustrated. you are angry. you are disgusted that you do not have more people in your
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community coming out and saying how, how bad this is for the overall muslim community. what your reaction to what we saw there at the stadium in turkey? >> trish, ladies and gentlemen, this is stage one of radicalization. radicalization doesn't happen overnight. it starts in countries like turkey. remember turkey is run by the akp, which is muslim brotherhood of turkish movement. for 10 years they have been radicalizing their country. their idea is no longer secular turkey but islamism. no matter how evil they may look at isis, no matter how much they may with be us against isis, at end of the day their team is the islamic nationalist team. the teams they hate, western secular states, greece, france, u.s., israel. this is clinic for the world to look and see. they love their islamic states no matter how evil they are. they hate the west. that is where the battle lines are in this global battle.
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trish: zuhdi, fundamentally there seems to be a problem with how they're drabbing on to this -- grabbing on to this religion. i will share with you a quote from an excellent article everybody should read in the atlantic, called, what isis really wants. according to author, the islamic state, is islamic, very islamic. >> well, that's, you know the, article really lays out the fact this is battle inside of islam. who will win over the interpretation for these passages that the isis folks use to say that the koran says kill the infidel, the koran says this? well, moderate muslims believe in the secular state, that applied to the 7th century. there were no secular states around at that time. because of the american revolution, this society we believe is better than any islamic state. we want to abandon the islamic state. while in turkey there may be
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people saying "allahu akbar!," but many visibly upset. turkey for a long time was secular country. they're going through a battle within themselves between nationalism and patriotism versus secular patriotism. first people killed by isis of world, are muslims like me and others that reject the interpretation of those passages. trish: they don't like you one single bit because you don't believe in the caliphate. the fact that any government that has a muslim in charge in their view that doesn't belief in the caliphate system is in fact at odds with the religion. so i look at that, and i just question, do we need to destroy the actual caliphate? you're talking about an area there that they can train potential jihaddists in. that they can run with their barbaric laws, and that they can really generate power from, specifically now this area in northern syria, into iraq?
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>> absolutely. this is what the difference is between al qaeda and all the other groups that are inspired by islamism, versus those that now have ground and land in which they can put their flag down and say they have a caliphate and bring in jihadists from the taliban, boko haram and everywhere to join them. so we have to decimate the lands that they own so that can be taken back over by the muslims they were killing first which were muslims that reject their ought then tivity and reject the islamic state and begin to take sides. if we say all muslims want this we'll ignore the fact in tunisia the seculars won election against islamists. in egypt, millions rose up against the brotherhood after they ran the government for a year. so this a battle within islam there are many, many muslims on our side. we have to help them decimate the militants. trish: you need sunnis and shiites. everybody says that is imyou need to have them come together.
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there is one common enemy. >> amen. trish: the sooner people realize that the better. dr. jasser, always good to see you. >> anytime, trish. trish: coming up we're waiting for updates on this morning's paris raid. expecting an update any minute from the paris prosecutor. this as newly-uncovered u.s. homeland security reports warn about this very man back in may. in other words, we had the intelligence on him. and it happened anyway. coming up next, a guest who says we dropped the ball. but first after the president's comments, josh earnest hitting airwaves in his defense. hear interview that got a little testy, after this. >> josh, i have to stop you there. josh i will stop you there. the president of the united states words matter. >> have me on your show is, i was -- have me on the show to talk about serious issues. give me an opportunity to answer the question.
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trish: things got a little heated. >> melissa, you ask the american people to look at transcript of president's remarks where he described situation as sickening. professed profound sorrow exactly what had occurred. what i would encourage you to do is spend just as much time focusing on president's actions as you do his words.
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trish: >> his words matter josh. i have to stop you there. i will stop you there. the president of the united states -- >> let me finish my answer. have me on your show, melissa, have me on the show to talk about serious issue give me an opportunity to answer the question. trish: words matter, right? setback, a really setback, or a tragedy? with me aaron mclain, combat marine veteran and managing editor of the "washington free beacon." good to have you here. i would assume in your view this is whole lot more than a setback. >> of course it is. you know, i think it is worth taking josh earnest at his word and look at the president's actions in addition just his words. of course elisabeth hassleback is said the president's words are concerning but look at his actions in the aftermath of the paris attack. add ad smidge more to strategy anyone concedes is failing unless they work at white house
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or nsc. trish: i want to stop you there, it seems to be political energy in my view, aaron. this is what is so wrong about how the administration is approaching this right now because, they he have immediately gone after anybody who suggests we shouldn't be opening floodgates and bringing tens of thousands of refugees into this country. somehow you're a bad person if you're not willing to welcome these refugees, despite the fact aaron, isis said and promise they will populate the refugee populations with members of their jihadist group. >> you're right. president only gets passionate when condemning republicans. flat and disdainful and awfully thin-skinned when talking about terrorism. they say they have bolstered intelligence sharing with the french. which raises question why weren't we already sharing a lost intelligence with them? we're striking targets of oil sector. why weren't they striking it?
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raise as question why wasn't there already. trish: exactly. especially we had intelligence, aaron. there was a intelligence report back out in may, unclassified intelligence report by homeland security that basically predicted something like this happening. they even cited the guy who is the mastermind of the whole thing saying he was a problem. and yet somehow that information never was properly shared and we never properly wept about trying to prevent this from happening in the first place. >> you know, in some ways i think it is actually worse than that of course they knew. it is no surprise they knew something like paris was coming. anyone paying attention whether you have access to classified information or just reading in the newspapers knew something like paris was possible. what is really shocking they come to accept this possibility as the norm. they come to accept 100 people dead in paris is a new normal. they will not change what they're doing. 100 dead in paris won't get their administration to change course. i tell you 100 dead in
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washington or more just as isis threatening also won't give them to change course. they are committed to vision of american power where america is no longer guarantier of security in the middle east. america pulse back one nation among many. they will see that vision through regardless consequences. trish: you think of the consequences and i will politicize myself and point to the basics here, that most americans are not with the administration on this one. so i look at what hillary clinton is doing, saying no, we don't need 10,000, we need 65,000. i would up it even more. when i look at that i question her political savviness, i think on one hand they're trying to paint republicans as big, bad, non-inclusive people that dislike minorities. that dislike women. and this may be helps feed into that. on other hand, aaron, there is reality that every american wants to be safe right now. and we all worry about our own
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kids. for her to say she wants to bring all of them in without really saying we need a better vetting process between now and january 1st, i question whether people are really going to rally behind her, whether regular everyday folk american will rally behind her in that? >> i think you're right to question that, trish. i think it is a cynical ploy, the refugee debate that we're having right now. every minute we're having the debate the president is not being forced to be held accountable for the fact that his campaign against islamic state is failing. when you look what they have done from communications standpoint it is really quite remarkable. besides bashar al-assad, or baghdadi, leader of isis no one man on earth more responsible than the refugee crisis than barack obama. year after year he resisted action to take crisis in syria to a conclusion. millions of refugees destablizing european union. instead of being held accountable for that, instead of
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debating causes, instead of how we're bringing a closer, we're having debate over token number, 10,000 or so that syrian refugees president wants to settle here, belittling, country, more than half the country. trish: more than half the country feels like that right now. a lot of people, when you press them on this, they get a lot of questions. aaron, good to have you here, thanks very much. >> thanks for having me. trish: for citing root of the problem, we allowed, we allowed al-asad doing what he did and we're confronting reality of millions of refugees around the world. president obama calling out republicans and refugee opponents saying they're scared of widows and orphans. a congressman trying to halt the program's funding response, right after this. >> apparent they're scared of widows an orphans coming into united states of america as part of our tradition of compassion.
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deirdre: we have break news crossing right now, president obama saying he will veto a bill that the house put forward that would require more screening for any syrian refugees coming into united states, in less than 6 weeks' time the president wants to invite 10,000 refugees from syria into this country. the house put forward a bill that would require additional screening. homeland security committee member, tom moreno is a congress man who supported this bill, who would like to see additional security should we bring any refugees into this country, he is also from a state, who says doe wouldn't' refugees in this country. congressman your reaction to
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the president's news. >> is that really a shock to anyone? the president is not leading. i do have something that i want to make sure that the american people hear and the president hears, if a terrorist gets into this country and kills an american or more, the blood is on his hands. deirdre: yeah. at a reality he should be thinking about. but for some reason, congressman, he is living in a world, which you know, i am as idealistic as the next person, we all want to help people in need. but nonetheless, there is a reality here. and the reality is, that isis has promised that they will feed the refugee groups with
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jihadists, in turkey today, 8 people were arrested, they were trying to get into europe. -- into rather germany with syrian passports. we know one of the terrorists in french attacks did use a -- came in into europe as a syrian refugee. what world is the president living in? he says we're not going to increase security for these people? >> you are right. this president, is does not want to leave office when he can avoid politically. being in a war so he is trying very hard to stay away from. but this president is the reason why we have the problem that we co-- do have in syria, this president could have addressed this issue is
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several level, chose not to. i go meet with 27 other nato countries several times a year, our allies are telling me, where is the leadership? where is this president? you know, they are also saying, i am paraphrasing it, the our allies in the world do not want the president standing beside them when the chips are down because they don't trust him, he has turned his back on our allies, and he is turning his back on this country if he does not change his policy, he surround himself with foreign policy advisors that are inept, and tell him what he wants to hear. deirdre: representative moreno thank you for being with us tonight. you know, unfortunately under these issues but thank you very much. >> french authorities, have found a mobile phone near th
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concert hall with a message saying let's go. this as hacker group anonymous went on the attack against isis, my next guest said they are doing the job silicon valley should be doing, anonymous trying to down isis itself. >> to honor of value and or freedom we're tracking down members of the terrorist group. we will not give up, we will do all this is necessary to end. the pursuit of healthier.
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centurylink. your link to what's next. so jill, i know the markets have taken a hit lately. mm hmm. just wanted to touch base. how did edward jones come to manage over $800 billion dollars in assets? huh. okay. here's our latest market outlook. two things that i'd like to point out... through face time when you really need it. so that's interesting, you know we had spoken about that before.
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it's how edward jones makes sense of investing. >> to honor our value and our freedom we're tracking down members of the terrorist group responsible for these attacks, will not give up. we will not forgive, we will do all that is necessary to end direct. deirdre: anonymous is declaring war on isis. the hacking group has taken down over 6,000 twitter sites associated with isis, gerri willis is joining me with more, let's tuck about what else anonymous to doing. >> reporter: you showed that video, that is how it got started, anonymous, the bad guys, they have been in prison for what they have done, they take on issues close to their heart, they are trying to take down isis. and they say, they taken down
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6080 accounts since they started, we were curious about twitter. what was they saying? they would not gives a comment, they said, look at our policy on this, here is what they say, users may not make threats of violence or promote violence including threatening or promoting terrorism that is the twitter policy, they are against it but reality is they don't do all that much. you look at this, you think, wow. this is very dramatic. but there is a lot of push back, including people in tech community who say that you know, really this -- these twitter accounts provide a lot of data to police and others. i want to show you isis response here. they say, anonymous hackers threaten in a new video release they will carry out a major hack operation on islamic state, in pa ren --
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idiots, what are they going to hack? there was another isis attack, anonymous mas reportedly shut down some 150 pro isis web sites and 100,000 twitter accounts, the paris attack that happened nonetheless. but they have been very active . deirdre: thank you very much, anonymous waging a war on isis are they doing the job here. where are the companies in all this? how is this these companies, u.s. companies can be hosting terrorist activity on their sites. and if they are, we better hope they are telling the cia and nypd, and everyone else, the fbi, all about it. here is nypd and cia both
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warning about all of this encryption that companies like apple use, and others, and enable these terrorists to potentially exist without being seen. >> they have gone to school, on what it is they need to do to keep their activities concealed from the authorities. >> the apps, these devices, that now allow these terrorists to operate effectively without fear of penetration by intelligence services this is the first example of this. deirdre: i spoke earlier with governor jeb bush, about the very issue today, he is actually calling for a renewal of patriot act, because he feeling is that medadata collection that nsa was able to engage in, quite recently, helped to thwart any additional potential attacks. i spoke with former head of the nsa, who wound up leaving
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his post after snowden had those revelation, the general said we thwarts 24 attacks in europe, in part because of the intelligence we were able to gather, we do not have the same cape bill tie now -- cape bill tie now,ny concern is that. u.s. companies, are in some ways, enabling these terrorists because these terrorists are using their platt forms, should they not be held accountable? the companies? >> i'm not sure how you could hold technology company account able for actions of criminal organizations. >> let me just in. for example, they are looking into landlord of the terrorist who were leaving there in northern suburb of paris. if that landlord was knowingly renting to terrorists will
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find himself in a whole big, you know a big problem could you make the same argument for u.s. companies if they knowingly allow the terrorists to operate on their platform? i don't know if they are making concerted efforts to stop them. or police them. i think if it came across there was a terrorist organization that was communicating on their flatta -- platform, i think they would make mention of it to a government organization, to held them responsible this is not a technology issue this is a boots on the ground issue. deirdre: people in silicon valley do not like that the government is breaking down their backs, they worry how that affects their able to compete initially. -- internationally.
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we have seen mark zuckerberg be critical of some nsa's activity. at some point, if they are enabling these guys, even if not fully knowing they are doing so, it seems they should be working together more with government to provide the information, officials need to track down the terrorists. >> i know that silicone valley is working with the government. they certainly are aware of the issues, they are families, and concern about national second circumstance homeland security. -- national security and moment moment homeland security, the issue is what you create backdoors that allow government access you create backdoors for cyber criminals. so that vulnerability that you are creating for a government agency, can also be used for you know, bad. so it is a tight rope, that they all walk.
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and you know the goal, for everyone is to secure the homeland. deirdre: without a doubt, thank you very much robert. >> president obama, everyone, is vowing to veto a bill, this news just crossing from house republicans that would increase screening for syrian and iraqi refugees before they enter the united states he says, he will veto this. our political panel is going to weigh in on this news, after this. shouldn't what makes each of us a unique individual, help individualize our cancer treatment?
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trish: this news just coming to us that obama is viewing he will veto a bill from house republicans that would increase screen for syrian and iraqi refugees before they enter the u.s., white house said that legislation would introduce quote unnecessary, and impractical requirements that would harm effort to assist some of the world's most vulnerible people. the bill would add a new
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requirement for fbi background checks, it does not call for ending the refugee program. nor does it require a religious screening it just require that anyone syrian refugee be checked by fbi, the president said he will veto it, the house to vote tomorrow. getting to our political panel . caylee, this news just crossing, and i heard it somewhat in disbelief, it seems to be wanting to implement practical things like background checks, it isn't going so far as to say it would like at reli re religion for example. hav president saying he would
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veto it. >> this is astonishing. fbi director said we have inadequate screening of refugees, a bill, a fairly uncontroversial one, vetoing that, what is the president thinking? what is his motive, you look at fact combine there is an adequate screening one in eight refugees has a positive view of isis, that is terrifying, to not screen them, i have to ask what is the president thinking. >> he is just little bi little bipoliticizing it to no end. >> he is saying that bill in and of itself will not add to measures that are already in place, there is a part of bill that said these refugees need to come before congress, prove they should be here, i think
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that president saying what does that mean. the issue is that is a lot in the bill which has not been discussed and spelled out, he is saying, let's stake take a step back and talk about details, but i don't think that president is saying we should not be screening these folks that are coming here. trish: i wonder where common sense is in this. we are a humane group of people, we would like to help the individuals in need. but we also are looking at really extraordinary circumstances. i want to continue this conversation, for viewers tuning in president promised to veto the house's plan to see more background checks from the fbi for any individuals coming from the united states and syria. president obama, calling republican stance here a potential recruitment tool for isis.
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>> i cannot think. -- of a more pot ent recruitment tool for isil than some rhetoric that has been coming out of here during the course of this debate, you start seeing individuals in positions of responsibility suggesting that christians are more worthy of protection than muss lipmuslims are, in a war torn land that feeds the isil -- it needs to stop. >> president obama.
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saying that republicans are helping isis to recruit, and republican presidential candidate, senator ted cruz, firing back on that one. >> mr. president, if you want to insult me, you can do it overseas, in turkey but in torent countries, i encourage you come back into insult me to my face, let's have a debate on syrian refugees right now. trish: to our guests. this is becoming a highly charged political issue. when i saw this unfolding, i thought, hillary clinton is going to have a hard time with this. i don't think that average american wants the security threat of having thousands of refugees here, not within the next 6 weeks, feeling like we can't vet them in time. yet, you know, you have hillary clinton sticking to
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her plan to up this to 65,000. in the wake of this terror attacks in france, and barack obama trying to paint republicans as bad americans, as bad people. that don't' to bring in the refugees, what is wrong with that? >> i have to ask myself, why is barack obama going after republicans, more boldly than he seems too go after terrorists. really it makes no sense. you think back to george w. bush administration, when our country was attacked, george w. bush did not use it as a political opportunity he brought the country together, he was about uniting this country, keeping it safe, i would love to hear the same bakari savage but she -- from barack obama but he is more concerned with politics. >> i could not dis, agree more. what i president is saying,
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that if you have -- he did not blame republicans per se. what he did say is that if you are a public official, you say this country only cares about christians, that is not american. that does not promote the value. >> no one said that. no one said that. the reason that jeb bush and ted cruz ared v advocates for christians to come first, because christians are not attacking this country if you top go after most vulner interest gees,. trish: i guess -- i have to step in. let me await. >> where do you choose. trish: i have to get to break. you can't -- someone could tell you, they are a christian, and still be sympathetic to isis. >> what do they do? trish: you need to vet everyone of them.
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>> what do you do. trish: i have to take a quick break, thank you to you both. for joining me. i vic want too remind viewers that president obama is vetoing a bill from house republicans right now that would increase screening for the syrian refugees, my thoughts on this right after the break. i am totally blind. and sometimes i struggle to sleep at night, and stay awake during the day. this is called non-24. learn more by calling 844-824-2424. or visit
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or any symptoms of an allergic reaction, stop taking cialis and get medical help right away. ask your doctor about cialis for daily use. insurance coverage has expanded nationally and you may now be covered. contact your health plan for the latest information. jeb bush: leadership means you've got to be a. it's not about talking. it's about doing. i know how to do this because i was privileged to serve in florida for eight years. and we turned the systems upside down that weren't working. 1.3 million new jobs were created. we cut taxes every year. income rose in people's pockets. people were lifted out of poverty. children started to learn. as president of the united states, i pledge to you that i will solve problems. announcer: right to rise usa is responsible for the content of this message.
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trish: we just learned that president will veto a bill requiring additional background checks for any refugees coming from syria. this is buying politicized that wrong, the president said that republican are forgetting who we are as american, that is an kno an unfair accusation, we all have a common goal, that is to destroy isis, there is a rialto opening before us, by opening our borders to
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everyone with a syrian passport we're exposing ourselves. here we are, 6 weeks from now. possibly making ourselves much more vulnerible. ill see you tomorrow on -- charles: breaking news, did french get their man, officials not identifying that second body found in paris raid today, by reports they that the mastermind is dead, just before air, president obama said he will veto the refugee bill, we have a new fox news poll just released, have you been asking, you got it. guess what, someone took a big lead, but first, fox news steve harrigan with latest from paris. >> reporter: it was urban warfare today in suburbs of paris after 4:00 a.m., shooting kicked off in a 5 story apartment building there was at least 5 suspected terrorists outside on the street, 100 of the elite french police, and mor


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