tv Lou Dobbs Tonight FOX Business April 16, 2016 10:00am-11:01am EDT
good evening, everybody. i'm lou dobbs. donald trump is fighting the republican national committee over its delegate and convention rules. trump accused the republican party of conspiring to stop him from clinching the party's nomination. >> i know the rules very well but i know it is stacked against me by the establishment. i fully understand it. we had people out there. they weren't heard. then, in fact, today, when it was announced, the numbers were announced, they put out something on twitter saying, oh, we stopped trump. we stopped trump that. was put out by the party in colorado. the.is, it was stacked against us. >> his comments elicited a
response in reince priebus who tweeted this, nomination process known for a year and beyond. it's the responsibility of the campaigns to understand it. complaints now? give us all a break. i'll be taking that up tonight with two experts from the delegate and convention process. randy evans, a member of the rnc rules committee and strategist, charles spies and i will be talking about the presidential race with ed rollins, white house political director, pultizer prize-winning columnist for the "new york post," michael good win and we'll be telling you about two russian jets that puzed one of our navy destroyers. saying those jets came within 30 feet of the ship at an altitude of under 100 feet, known as on the deck. the obama administration isn't responding to the provocation, other than to say, they have deep concerns about the maneuvers. former ambassador to the united
nations, john bolton, will be joining us later. our top story, the always intriguing republican race for the white house. donald trump escalating his attacks against the republican national committee and its chairman, reince priebus. he accused the party of rigging the system against him. priebus and trump opponent, ted cruz, say that's not the case and trump is just getting outmaneuvered on the ground. joi joining us now, charles spies, a veteran political campaign attorney. he worked with jeb bush's right to rise pack acted as counsel for mitt romney's 2008 campaign and former election law counsel for the republican national committee. also, with us, randall evans, a member of the rnc rules newt gingrich er senior adviser presidential campaign. randy, good to have you with us. >> thank you. >> randy, you kicked up quite a
dust storm today when you suggested 1100 was the number that reasonably might put trump within reach of the nomination. you would think that the entire backlash came from a convention of attorneys wanting to knit pick every little element of the sentence you uttered. >> i agree. i really just tried to handicap the race as best as we could. down here in georgia, we call that spitting distance. basically, i suggested that should donald trump get to 1100 delegate, i thought between 150-200 unbound delegates will be around, it would be pretty easy for him to get to the 1237. he just needs 127 of those 200 unbound delegates and there is such a bandwagon effect that happens when you get that close to the nomination, everybody wants to be on the winning team. i suggested that if he got to 1100, he is probably there. >> do you agree, charlie, with
randy on that? >> i think my friend, randy's comments created a really irresponsible impression that if you are close to the finish line, that's enough. if he was running the boston marathon on monday, he would probably say at the 24 mile mark, that's enough. you declare a winner. the clear point is, you have to have 1237 delegates. coming close doesn't count. that's it. >> don't you think people are being a little disingenuous when they take his remarks in that fashion? there is a period between six weeks between the california primary, the wrap-up primaries from the beginning of june to the convention in july. you know there is going to be dealing, bargaining, pulling, pushing, shoving and eye-poking going on with the delegates to get where those candidates want to be, right? >> absolutely. that point is fair but the problem is the context of the trump forces saying that merely
being ahead is enough to be declared the winner. that's not how the rules work. the rules are very clear that you have to have a majority of the delegates. >> i want to ask you first, randy. do you guys realize -- you surely must -- how this plays straight into the narrative for donald trump? the big, bad rnc, the republican party, the party of the chamber of commerce, the business round table, the money class is squeezing the life out of the body politics in colorado. 1 million republicans had no direct participation in those delegates selected? >> you are dead on. i think charlie's comments illustrate the establishment's point. no matter how close you are and how much of a majority you have,
no matter how much history is reflected the opposite, we are going to deny that to you. the fak of the matter is, in every convention, whenever it got close, when it got to the end. when barack obama was headed into the convention, he didn't have all he needed, but by the time he got there, there was enough. when ronald reagan went in 1980 and gerald ford in 1976. it is called the bandwagon effect. everybody wants to be on the winner aets bandwagon. i agree with charlie, there are some members of the establishment that will never sfoert donal support donald trump. >> we are getting that impression. >> i agree. >> i think that's why donald trump needs to get as close to 1237 as he possibly can. the part of the interview that rarely gets played is the part where i said, if neither candidates breaks 1,000, it will be a free for fall. throw the rules out of the window. everybody is worried about what the rules will be.
they will suddenly be no rules, because the convention won't have enough coalescing around 1237 people to adopt rules. we know what the ends of the spectrum are. >> charlie, let's bring you in here, because you are carrying now that mantle of the establishment republican lead, which you certainly are. i am sure it is proudly that you carry that mantle. >> the question becomes, at what point is there the intelligence and the wisdom in the leadership of the republican party to say, if it is, indeed, donald trump at 1100 votes that, this business of eating your young, which is what the elites and donor classes have been funding for months in going after trump. it is just a strange spectacle. i wonder if there is a sense among the party elite that this
is a threat to the party itself? >> lou, let's stick to the fact. >> no, i don't want to stick to the facts. i want to ask you questions about the future of the party, which requires speculation in some conjuring. i would like you to do that if you would. >> i understand that. we are talking about colorado where the rules were laid out a year ago. the fact that the trump folks weren't smart enough to learn the rules. >> it was laid out last august. they made some significant changes last august as well. your point is, everybody knew what the rules were. >> this was about delicates and people of the county and state convention, actual registered republicans, voting in colorado. there was no party elite stealing anything. it was people voting. >> there weren't 1 million republicans voting on anything, which is really the issue. >> just like in iowa, there
weren't either. there were 1 million but it was a caucus. >> you want to ask me what i think about iowa and all of these caucuses and those archaic and mostly opaque systems. i think any party is fools to contend with it. we understand why you do it. it is easier to manage. >> you are literal little saying the american people equate these archaic rules like in colorado with what they see going on in washington. nothing gets done in washington because of some opaque rule or the filibuster. the bottom line is that which is reflective of what the people want seems to never matter. what matters is that we have this particular procedural rule. that's the hurdle. that's what i think donald trump is really trying to take on. he is using it well to shift the message away from things he
doesn't want to talk about to things that he does. >> if donald trump and his team aren't smart enough to figure out the rules of a colorado election, how in the heck are they going to defeat vladmir putin? >> if the republican party is content to disenfranchise 1 million republicans in colorado, how many will you disenfranchise when you own the white house, the senate and the house of representatives? let's keep the questions in some order and some counterveiling balance. >> i know it is important to you both. i'm gonna have to leave it here. i appreciate you coming in to talk about this. it is -- there are some awful aggravated folks. we call them voters and citizens. the idea that folks with a couple billion dollars in their hip pock keths are going to make the rules without
consequences, those days are done. >> thank you so much. we are coming right back. much more straight ahead. donald trump in a battle with the rnc and it is escalating. >> the rnc, the republican national committee, they should be ashamed of themselves for allowing this kind of crap to happen. >> so whatever happened to one person, one vote. we take it up with ed rollins and michael good win here next. ♪ in new york state, we believe tomorrow starts today. all across the state, the economy is growing, with creative new business incentives, and the lowest taxes in decades, attracting the talent and companies of tomorrow. like in buffalo, where the largest solar gigafactory in the western hemisphere will soon energize the world. and in syracuse, where imagination is in production. let us help grow your company's tomorrow - today - at business.ny.gov
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get better internet installed on your schedule. comcast business. built for business. more good news for donald trump. a new sienna college poll shows him leading with 50% support. governor kasich, second, 27%. cruz with 17%. in maryland, a monmouth university poll has trump with 47% support, 20 points ahead of kasich in second place and bringing up third, senator cruz, 19% support. joining us now, former reagan white house political director, republican strategist, ed rollins. pultizer prize-winning columnist for the "new york post." michael goodwin, both foxx news contributors. as you just heard, talking with randy evans and charlie spies. this is a battle between the
front-runner and the rnc and some of its biggest contributors. what happens next here? how do they make it right? >> well, somebody wins. i think trump is going to regain momentum. he sort of lost momentum the last several weeks. he is going to have a big victory. if he stays at 50% or goes above 50% in new york, he is going to pick up a giant set of delegates here. maryland, obviously, he will win. pennsylvania is coming up, a big, large group. >> he has the lead there. >> so he could get the momentum again. cruz has to still chip away in these delegate battles and what have you. trump is now getting better staffers. he had a very weak staff to begin with. they know some of these operations. my sense is that he will go in close. he may not have the majority. if he is close, he has an opportunity before the june 7th primaries to try and wrap this thing up. >> michael, are these antiquated
rules? is it rigged? is this the donor class, the wealthy in this country employing the republican establishment as its tools to provide some crumbs to its great unwashed members and voters. >> i think it is more actually a case of almost federalism in that the states all make their own rules. the rnc ultimately has to approve them. the rules themselves are different in every state. new york, for example, on the delegate thing, is weird in its own way. >> we have a close race, big personalities, big stakes. that's not good enough anymore to say, that's the way it is. you have 1 million folks in colorado disenfran choiced because of the way it is played. who is going to put up with that. you have choices now. >> if you go back, we have come a long way from, say, the 60s before the primary system developed as we have it now. they are vestiges of the old
style. >> there are still arguments about whether or not that was preferred. >> trump should have known this coming in. we go back to iowa. he did not have a ground game in iowa. he should have won there. he still doesn't have a ground game. it is hurting him still z what michael just said is what surprises me as much as trump has done. he learns in iowa that a ground game is essential and doesn't have one today. >> i think he was badly served by the people that he hired. the guy that was his campaign manager, who thought he was a security guard as opposed to being a campaign manager, and obviously not a very good one is being pushed aside. >> the question about, where were his security guards? >> at the end of the day, this is elementary. the rules have not changed. i don't particularly like them. i don't like the way it works. i don't like the whole primary process the way it works. that's my opinion. it has been the same system since the '70s, the late '70s.
the public is getting to see it up close t has not been a contested primary since 1976. >> the american voters haven't paid attention to a primary since 1980. >> why should they? p since '76. the reality is, there is a whole bunch of new people in the game watching this thing. they are getting educated on a daily basis. i am sitting in amtrak station, d.c., and these two old ladies, probably my age, are sitting there arguing about delegates. neither of it had anything to do with delegates. this has turned the public on and off at the same time. >> alleluia. i think it is great. from the very onset, trump has had an effect. he has turned this primary process into the public arena. it is rough and tumble. it is scalding hot. it is a place, not a place for sissy s. >> that goes to him.
he is complaining as loudly as any. >> why do we have such bad government? why has our government not responded to what's been going on in this country? >> because most people haven't voted. they have not paid attention. they have not held their elected official's seats to the fire. >> the chamber of commerce, the business round table, the money moneyed establishment, the left and the system of professors with left wing views, they want home yo stay sis. they want this country to remain stagnant. >> so did john boehnered. i would go to the back on that. >> the establishment has spent an enormous amount of money in the last six, eight weeks, $30 million, $40 million against trump and had very little impact. trump has not countered.
he is going to have to spend his own money or raise money. it is going to be a battle and it is not going to be covered by fox and cnn alone. you have to have the television. she is way ahead of him on organization. >> the nice word here is, he does seem a bit prudent right now. >> maybe he will spend our money the same way he spends his own money, which is a good thing. >> you look at the organization. any one of these campaigns, trump is showing you how to do it on a light tab. i want to go back to paul ryan. this guy who has been having these soviet era videos created of himself p i've got a few chins, so i kind of like to do this a lot. every camera angle is his chin and him talking and blatherring nonsense and hugging truth and virtue. he says he is not going to run. are you able to recover in the next week or two?
>> i was just struck by the confusion he created with paul of that. i don't understand what he was doing? >> was running for president? >> why did he stop? >> because somebody told him too. the reason he does everything as speaker. somebody tells him what to do. >> he does not look like a steady ship in this storm? >> the last word is i don't want you to have delusions about being a speaker, denny has stte going to put in jail. john boehner won't be heard from. it is not a job that you launch your career for further office. >> i do feel like throwing a benefit for everybody who has been speaker of the house. i will always defer to you, ed. raw ambition, whether it is in the speaker's office or the majority leaders, it is an ugly thing to watch. we have got to go. michael, we have to run.
i would love to give you time to rebut everything that ed said. >> i wouldn't do that. >> we'll be back. >> thanks. i appreciate it. the folks at red bull at it again and we are grateful when the aqua venture water park in dubai, temporarily closed for maintenance, these guys took full advantage. that's right. they are going down a water park without water. they are professional skateboarders. they got the chance to perform death-defying stunts on the anaconda, the world's largest water slide. look at this. wow! complete with music. love that. now, that has got to be a skateboarder's dream. it is fascinating and fun to watch, certainly. wow! red bull, good job. up next, donald trump on a mission to bring back transparency to american politics. >> they don't want me to
s a few thoughts now on the republican establishment's efforts to stop donald trump by any means at any cost. more than half of all the money that gop elites are spending is for negative ads directed at trump. nearly 70 million targeting. some 23 million coming from three superpacs alone. the koch-linked american future fund, the club for growth and our principles pac.
a group whose seoole mission iso destroy trump. it isn't just limiting itself to negative ads. they are turning to the delegate fight looking for anti-trump delegate ns the event of a contested convention. trump already battling to keep delegates in arizona, arkansas, louisiana, tennessee, virginia. the unprecedented effort and ground operations being bankrolled by billionairs, and the ricketts family. speaking of the ricketts family, chicago cubs owner, todd ricketts, planning a meeting of top gop donors in new york city next week. despite urging delegates today to count me out for the gop nomination, i believe the republican establishment and the elites are appoplectic as they watch their influence over presidential candidates and
politics dwindling. for now wharks will the establishment and the elites do to win? is there any possibility that they have come to their senses and will work with trump to unify the republican party? i don't think so either but we'll see. speaker ryan's big money donors want to him run for president. he says, he is absolutely, positively, not running. no way. >> let me be clear. i do not want, nor will i accept the nomination for our party. >> ryan says he is out. who will be the nominee? we take it up with former speaker, newt gingrich, here next. this fisherman thinks he has caught the catfish of the day. little does he know, he is reeling in something a little bigger and a lot more dangerous. we'll show you the video from "lou dobbs"
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doing small gigs,side gigs...gig gigs. quickbooks self-employed helps me get ready for tax time. to separate expenses,i just swipe. it's one hat i don't mind wearing. [passenger] i work for me. and so does quickbooks. it estimates my taxes,so i know how much stays in my pocket. and that's how i own it. [announcer] stay in the flow with quickbooks self-employed. start your free thirty-day trial today at join-self-employed-dot-com. joining us now, former speaker of the house, newt gingrich. first, if i may, your reaction to these new polls out of new york, putting trump at 60%, 54%, your reaction? >> well, look, the 60% poll is breathtaking.
i was sort of ready for trump to be at 52%, 54%. if this poll is accurate and he really comes in next week at 60% or more, and if cruz comes in a very distant third, i think this is a game-changer in a big way. 60% of trump is almost certainly going to get all 95 delegates. if you pick up 95-0, that moves him ahead in the delegate race. second, it is pretty hard for cruz, if he is actually at third place to argue that he is the main alternative. particularly if that is follow ld by pennsylvania, connecticut, rhode island and nunl. all of which may look very similar. by the time they get to indian a it may start looking like these states. something is happening out there that i think is very powerful. >> two states, you mentioned one of them. the other, california. those basically have been toss-ups. if trump takes that. it looks like he has a path to
1237. >> if he comes out of new york 95-0, i clearly will have a path to get to 1237. if he win s in california by a fairly significant margin, picks up two-thirds of the delegates, he would have the number before you got to the convention. also, remember, there is about a six-week period there where trump, who is a very good negotiator and who has made a lifetime of billions of dollars negotiating, if he goes in a full-court press with the undecided delegates, marco rubio delegates, et cetera, he may well pick up 100-150 delegates between california and the convention, because most republicans, not all of them but most republicans think if he is that far ahead, it's a lot better to get him to be the nominee than to stop him at the
last second and guarantee a huge floor fight in cleveland. >> the people that want that fight, that are funding it, most of them are billionaires, by using superpacs and every other means at their disposal to stop trump. are you surprised at the animated opposition on the party of these people to donald trump? >> no, i'm really not. trump violates almost all of their core characteristics. he is an entrepreneur, not a corporate leader or a finance in a traditional sense. he builds things, buildings, hotels, casinos, golf courses. he is a salesman. he is p.t. barnum. he creates the apprentice as the number one tv show. he has a line of ties. if you are a normal, slightly read sent billionaire, you are watch t watching this guy who is a show boat and say, that doesn't feel right. you begin to realize, he is not
coming to you for permission. he is not coming to you to be ambassador. he represents a totally new force in american politics. he is raising fundamental questions about our current policies. that rattles everybody in the traditional establishment. that's part of why you see the resistance to it. >> the fundamental disrupter. the candidates in this race, in either party, including bernie sanders, who is taking the democratic party in directions it didn't dream it was ready for but trump is so fundamental in his disruption, because he is talking about trade. he is talking about immigration. he is talking about the help of the middle class. he is talking about the preimminence in republican itology in the family, the working man and woman and the american dream. >> bernie sanders is not disrupting. bernie sanders is a natural continuation of the obama
socialism. look at what obama has done in education, health care. you look again and again at what he is doing. obama would be perfectly comfortable with sanders socialism, because they are indistinguishable. the disruptive force in this election is donald trump, partly because he is a businessman. he thinks like a businessman an a way which breaks up all the washington think tanks and all the folks who are into this policy stuff. a businessman has a different calculus of what works and what doesn't work than does either a lawyer or an academic. so trump truly is the most disruptive force i think in modern times in american politics. i tell people, you have to go back and look at andrew jackson as a genuine disrupp tore. you have to look at theodore roosevelt's energy level and at p.t. barnum's salesmanship. somewhere in those three, you begin to get the outline of a donald trump. >> news gingrich, thanks for being with us. look forward to talking to you
soon. >> thanks. >> newt gingrich, a lousiana fisherman recently thought he had caught the big one. his name is lance bergos. he thought he was reeling in a catfish as you see here. it seems to be moving a little faster. perhaps we can see the reason for that. there, no, that's not a catfish. no. necessary a very large alligator on the other end of his hook. he wisely began paddling. i think paddling like hell is the expression. he did better. i think he maintained his poise pretty well. you have to give him credit. he wasn't a bit a shamed to throw away, the bait, the hook, the line, the sinker, everything. nobody hurt and a great story to tell. jeff fighter, a navy destroyer in the ballty sea. how will the defense department
and the u.s. if navy department and commander and chief react? former u.n. ambassador, john bolton, will react. stay with us. we'll be right back. ♪ i don't want to live with the uncertainties of hep c. or wonder whether i should seek treatment. i am ready. because today there's harvoni. a revolutionary treatment for the most common type of chronic hepatitis c. harvoni is proven to cure up to 99% of patients who've had no prior treatment. it's the one and only cure that's one pill, once a day for 12 weeks. certain patients... can be cured with just 8 weeks of harvoni. with harvoni, there's no interferon and there are no complex regimens. tell your doctor if you have other liver or kidney problems, hiv, or other medical conditions, and about all the medicines you take including herbal supplements. taking amiodarone with harvoni may cause a serious slowing of your heart rate. common side effects of harvoni may include tiredness, headache and weakness.
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give the appearance at least that his administration is focused on degrading and destroying the islamic state as he promised more than a year and a half ago. the president proclaiming the islamic state is on the defensive following a meeting with his national security advisers at the cia. that's right. the president, very publicly with his national security team at the cia. this is the third time in recent months he has traveled over there to meet with his national security council, visiting the pentagon in december and the state department and now the cia. joining us, former u.s. ambassador to the united nations, also, fox news contributor and international fellow, john bolton. before we turn to the weighty affairs of state, corey lewindowsky, no charges, charges
dropped? >> it could be a problem that lasted weeks and weeks for trump. with that gone, they focus on the results of the new york primary on tuesday and the other primaries after that. it is unquestionably good news for the trump campaign. >> others had dropped that narrative in recent, last couple of weeks. you just weren't hearing it. apparently, there was some sign this was not going to be going ahead. i want to compliment the democratic prosecutor in palm beach county. he did the right thing. i know it must have been tough, the pressures he was under. >> i think we have seen with the interviews that have been done with the candidate's family, melania trump defending her father on the attitude toward women. the two best defenders of the record so far and mirrored by heidi cruz on the side of the cruz campaign. we are beginning to move into a different phase.
>> what phase are we moving into with vladmir putin and russia? two of his jet fighters buzzing right on the deck. can we see that? it is remarkable video. these two jet fighters, russian fighters, buzzing one of our guided missile destroyers in the baltic sea. >> i am sure president obama will be attempted to apologize for our destroyers getting in the way of his airplanes. this is part of a pattern. we have seen this right across the board of russian planes shadowing nato forces near norway and the baltic. what they have made in lithuania, i think putin is clearly testing the president. he has watched our reaction. >> hasn't he flunked every test imaginable to this point. putin has had his will z putin, look, he has faced internal difficulties, because of the collapse of international oil prices. it reduced his ability.
>> i thought it was the sanctions that president obama told us would change the very trajectory history itself. >> what that allowed putin to do was put the blame on europe and the united states for the economic setback? >> i think putin can read the calendar as well as we can. he don't know who will win in november but he knows he has his man, obama, in the white house until then. >> let's remind us, he also has his woman in the chancellory. angela merkel, who is being very docile, francois hollande in france, and david cameron. none of them are standing up with a stiff spine to outright aggression on the part of putin, whether it be crimea or on the eastern border of europe? >> none of them will without american leadership. that's the way the alliance
works. you can like it or not like it. we may say the europeans should take more care of them. it is american leadership that is the glue. they see no leadership in washington. they are not going to stand out there alone. >> president xi sees no leadership to reckon with, the island, jet fighters, surface to air defense missiles, deployed, the united states, there is nothing. >> these steps to militarize the islands that they are literally building in the south china sea, all part of a chinese strategy. they don't see any american pushback there either? >> what should we do? >> we ought to have a far more vigorous freedom of navigation than we do to deny the chinese these claims. >> what do we do, say you have to clear the island or we are going to light it up? >> we have to put more pressure on them to get that result. in the next 8-10 months, those
bases are going to grow in size. the ned next president could face a fait accompli. >> as we see in texas, that horse has already left the barn. >> thank you, lou. >> ambassador john bolton, good to have you with us. >> a fearless climber in germany taking all of us a little closer to god with his stunt. the dear devare devil, risking e scaling the tallest church in the world with nothing but his camera. intense video showing his 528 free climb up the ancient steeple balances on gar goals. certainly, not for the faint of heart. we don't really know if he had anyone's blessing before taking up on this adventure but extraordinary as you see there video. up next, speaker ryan ruling out a run for president. do you feel relief? we have heard his denials,
however, before. >> does paul ryan want to be speaker? >> no, he doesn't. >> i'm not. i don't want to be speaker. p. >> seems so credible there, didn't he? can we believe ryan this time? jedi after bila and max las take up that issue. where is donald trump and where is ted cruz and why aren't they in the same place and what will be the result? stay with us. we'll be right back. ♪
joining us tonight, chairman of the american conservative union, matt slak and jedediah bila, or as i call her, the conscious of the five. >> that's why you are my favorite, lou. >> let's start with paul ryan, jedidiah. we know one thing, when this man says no, he means no. >> he means it. i don't think he wants the job, actually. i don't think anyone is clamoring for him to have the job. there are people that want to beg paul ryan and mitt romney to run no matter how many times. they could say no 500 times. there will be that person who says, but, on 501, he might agree. people forget that paul ryan was already on a presidential ticket and was extremely disappointing.
he didn't go after president obama. he suddenly went from this guy out there, heavy talk, heavy talk, to being really an intellectual weak ling when he ran on that ticket in my opinion. people need to get your dvrs and roll some of that tape back when you were criticizing him for not being tough enough. that is who he is when he campaigns. don't get too excited. >> are you relieved or heartbroken that ryan has withdrawn his name. >> i think it was a smart thing for him to withdraw his name and an obsurdty for my party to look beyond ted cruz or donald trump. i think paul ryan did say one thing. he said it would be absurd to not have somebody who has been a candidate of president to actually get the nomination. i don't know if you noticed. he seemed to open the door to one of the 17. >> everyone here on "lou dobbs tonight" got excited, because that meant that jim gilmore was
back in the race. >> that's what i'm waiting for. don't forget jeb, jeb bush. >> who could and who would. >> these billionaire donors and the ones who aren't quite billionaires, spending lots of money and going after trump, why can't think see it is cruz or it is trump and there is not anything in between? >> it is desperation. there are people that cannot stand donald trump to such an extent that they think somehow the more money they spend, they will be able to get people away from. this isn't an money or negative ads or any of that is going to dictate who wins. it is who goes to the people and speaks to them and they feel understands their plight and has a plan. the one thing that's been missing from the last two presidential candidates is toughness, someone who is not going to debate the democratic candidate toughly but is going to have policies from the people around the world that are tough to deal with and aren't going to take any gar banl.
that's why trump is up there. that's why ted cruz is winning as well. they view him as someone who digs his heels in. >> your thoughts on trump in particular. he is saying the party has rigged the game. he is saying to the anti-establishment crowds that he attracts by the tens of thousands, he would say the millions and he would be right in cumulative p they are simply not going to have it with an establishment that insists on disenfranchising 1 million voters at a time as the colorado party did. what do you think? >> look, i think there are plenty of ways in which you should criticize his presidential nomination process. it is arcane. sometimes ridiculous rules but i think donald trump has done a pretty good job of navigating these rules and winning a lot of primaries and caucuses. i know there is this rhetorical
strategy of pushing back. they have to lock it down in new york and these polls look strong. they have to lock it down in these other eastern states and take it to california. >> let me ask you about cleveland. 40 b requiring eight victories. it would make it between cruz and trump period no questions asked. do you think it would be a smart idea for them to preserve? it looks to me like it would be idiotic for them to change rules. >> in this scenario, i don't like that rule. it should be either trump or cruz. they can change those rules at any point, lou. we have to keep our eye on the ball. >> if they do, i think they will pay a hell of a price. >> it should be trump or cruz. these other guys that have fought the hard fight, anyone else who isn't at the top, they didn't make it. bring them back into the circle, they are going to make the same mistakes and keep people unhappy. >> we took care of it. >> the chairman of the republican national committee. matt, thanks for being with us,