. >> not my president! >> some people are really mad. >> donald trump go away, racist, sexist, anti-gay. john: others are thrilled donald trump is president. >> usa! usa! >> take a breath both of you, trump is neither savior nor curse. >> we'll rescue kids from failing schools by helping their parents send them to a safe school of their choice. john: choice is great! but a president cannot legally rescue kids from bad schools. that's state law. the president can rule on the environment, but what the
hysterics say is wrong. >> it's not safe. >> violent crime is up. john: and the media make it seem like life is getting worse, but away from politics, most of life gets better. we live longer, we live better. the good news is most of life exists outside government. the big picture. that's our show tonight. . announcer: and now, john stossel. john: so much has gone the better in america. our environment keeps getting cleaner, despite what you hear. we live longer than ever, become more prosperous, poor people have. more good things keep happening under president trump? he promises he'll help kids escape horrible government schools. >> we will rescue kids from failing schools by helping
their parents send them to a safe school of their choice. john: choice could be great. i like the way he said choice! but it's not really under his control. education is mostly run by local governments, and many places, in spite of resistance from teachers unions and stuck in their ways bureaucrats, better alternatives have emerged. charter schools have raised kids' test scores. >> high test scores made these charters so popular, parents line up, hoping to get their kids admitted. >> this line goes on and on. john: what's sad is there is a line, a million kids are on waiting lists to get into charters in america. governments put limits on the number of charters. on election day, massachusetts rejected a plan to increase the number of charter schools. why would they do that? well, let's ask the editor of the website, the 74 which
covers arguments about education and school choice. that's campbell brown. >> hey there, john. i guess you're right. it doesn't make a lot of sense, and i think if you took politics out of the equation, it would have passed. >> what do you mean politics out of the equation, what happened in massachusetts, i would think they want more kids to have these good things? >> charter schools are not union schools. john: spent the most money fighting this thing, telling people in the suburbs this will wreck your kids, take money from your kid's school to help poor kids? >> that's exactly right. so it's been a political fight, but i would say overall, charters have really exploded in growth largely because parents are demanding it. you mentioned the charter wait list in intro. in new york, there are 44,000 people on wait lists. in los angeles over 100,000. so with wait lists like that, it's hard to imagine that this is a snowball that they're
going to be able to stop rolling. john: but they did stop it in massachusetts, and don't the unions have a point? if there's a pot of money and some goes to the charter school, the public school has less. well, they're all public schools. the government school has less. >> that's true, but not in this case. there was -- in the way the legislation was written in massachusetts, there was funding that would go to schools that lost students who then moved to a charter school. so the argument that it was going to take money away from wealthier schools was false, it was false advertising. john: but it won. >> you would see how that would be a very effective argument with voters. >> in new york, a woman created charter schools call success sxh academies. >> you do this all with the same money the public schools get? >> we do it with less. john: the school day here is longer, kids often stay until
5:00 p.m. charter teachers are asked to work more than the union would allow. they don't mind. >> you are going to get kicked off. we have our prize with the kids. john: these teachers work harder, work longer, the kids do much better, thousands of kids waiting to get in and the bureaucracy opposes it. >> full disclosure, i serve on the board of success academies, i think it's a special charter school network. the top five schools in america are success academy charters. you would hope that the traditional public schools would look at what they're doing and why they're achieving these kind of results and learn from it and begin to apply that in the traditional environment. they're not doing. >> i suppose they feel the competition and maybe they're improving a little too? >> that's you hope. there are studies done that, when schools are co located
with a high-performing charter, it improves the school co-located with it. john: they don't like being shown up. >> and success academies, the example you gave, they share their lesson plans, and we've had people from all over the world come and tour these schools and visit them. john: another reason it's fortunate give kids an alternative to the government monopoly is that horrible teachers, teachers who hurt kids don't get fired. this former police investigator says it takes years to fire an abusive teacher. lots of people said he hit kids. the kids said it. >> lots of people said he hit them and other teachers said it that were present in the classroom. took me four years, $283,000. $127,000 in legal fees, plus what it cost to have a substitute fill in all while he's sitting home having popcorn. john: he's having popcorn, they finally took him out of classroom but had to keep
paying him because union protection makes it impossible to get rid of a dangerous teacher. where there are no unions, civil service protection makes teachers unifierable. principals often joke about something called the dance of the lemons, when they transfer bad teachers that they can't fire to other schools. you fire people at your schools. they should be fired. you fired teacher after one day? she's incompetent! >> that's an american indian who ran a charter school in oakland, california called the american indian public charter school. here at american indian, they pay kids to tutor other kids. >> we hire our students and pay them. they're excited. they're going to make money. >> reporter: the kids at american indian schools have some of the highest test scores in california. >> you can do that in the same amount the state gives every school. >> we get less.
that's what so amazes me campbell, the charters get less money, they aren't a miracle, but on average doing as well or better. >> it's less about the money, john, than it is to have the flexibility to try new ideas and figure out what works for different student populations because every kid is not the same. everything's not going to work for every child. so we need a variety, we need entrepreneurs. if we don't allow the charters to grow and experiment and innovate to teach kids differently and prepare them for the new world, it's a massive failure on our part. john: and they are growing, but it's pathetic, less than 10% of the kids now, right? >> absolutely, and i do think you want to give some credit to other ideas that are being tried. tax credits, scholarship programs in places like florida that has 100,000 kids using tax credits to send their kids to private schools. john: so am i just politically
naive? because i thought and take the school that you're associated with, success academies, when mom saw that johnny down the street looks forward to going to school, like learning, was getting top grades, getting into good colleges she would demand it for her child and within a couple years, we'd have choice almost everywhere, and it's been 15 years. >> she is demanding it for her child which is why the wait lists are crazy they're so long. but to use new york as an example where you have a mayor who is very much in sync with the teachers unions for political reasons he's not going to do anything. it's a constant battle given the politics of this issue and why things have moved so slowly. john: thank you, campbell brown. we're glad you're fighting for this. even when governments won't
allow a choice of schools, the internet is providing alternatives. better alternatives. five years ago hedge fund analyst sal khan created videos to tutor his cousin. >> that worked out well. i started tutoring her brothers and more cousins and do the same lecture over and over again. i had a friend who said hey, sal, put your lectures on youtube. >> he did, and was surprised to notice thousands of people watched. sal is an excellent teacher so students found him. >> i started getting letters from people, and comments on youtube, and they are not like, hey, i think this might have helped on my math exam, they're like i failed calculus the first time, started watching the video, now acing the class. >> reporter: the youtube numbers kept rising and got calls from the middle east, africa. now khan is funded by bill gates. >> not only is it reaching
millions of students, god forbid i got hit by a bus, it will be able to reach millions and billions of students. john: that's great. no student today has to have a bad teacher. everyone in the world, through the internet can, have access to the best. for economic students marginal revolution university is trying to be the best, alex founded it based on the marginal revolution that he writes with tyler cowen. you offer college courses? >> that's right we want to be the khan academy of economics and teaching millions of students around the world. john: how does it work? kids watch or colleges partner with you? >> we have videos on all kinds of topics, if a student is have be difficulty in elasticity they can look at the video on that topic. >> most university students take at least one online class? >> absolutely, online education is the only credible way to
reduce the costs of education. john: and other advantages you don't think of, when i went to college, the professor stood in front and droned on. sometimes he repeated himself. you never have to repeat yourself. john: that's exactly right. it's a better method of teaching, so when i'm teaching students at george mason and 20% are not quite getting it, it's very natural for me to repeat myself as you said. that means that 08% of the students have to hear something twice. they only need to hear it once in. the online world, you never repeat yourself and the student, they're in charge. you can pause, they can rewind, they can speed you up so you start talking faster than you usually do. much more individualized method of teaching. student can read more quickly through the material they understand well and move slowly through the material they need extra help with. john: at virginia tech, students take initial math classes online.
>> math is one of the areas where students proceed at a different pace. some get it quickly and some not so quickly and the computer -- john: like a video game. >> the computer, it's a fantastic tutor, right? it never gets angry, never gets bored, available 24 hours a day. it's a fantastic, the artificial intelligence tutor is going to be the leading teacher in the world. john: with thanksgiving coming up, one economic principle that's good to know about is the tragedy of the commons, that almost starved the pilgrims. plymouth colony cheered almost everything. communism! no one worked hard, no one protect the group's property and people took more of their share. they almost starved. marginal revolution university expands that idea to overfishing oceans. >> the tuna stock collapses, no more sushi and no more jobs for fishermen. that's a tragedy. do you have roommates?
they can look at your kitchen. that's the tragedy of the commons. john: so is this a substitute for the $50,000 tuition at george mason? >> well, i don't want to tell the georgeat. but i will tell you at georgia tech, for example, you have an online degree in computer science which is $7,000. at other comparable universities it's 50, 60, $70,000. so this is going to be a huge trend. >> it's just as good? >> just as good or better. the students find they can interact with the professor and with other students more easily online than they can in the classroom. we can get entertainment on demand, why can't we get education 24 hours a day, whenever we want it in the entire world. john: thank you, alex. next, despite all the doomsday warnings, turns out our environment's improving, too. the microsoft cloud helps us
stay connected. the microsoft cloud offers infinite scalability. the microsoft cloud helps our customers get up and running, anywhere in the planet. wherever there's a phone, you've got a bank, and we could never do that before. the cloud gave us a single platform to reach across our entire organization. it helps us communicate better. we use the microsoft cloud's advanced analytics tools to track down cybercriminals. this cloud helps transform business. this is the microsoft cloud.
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those protesters object the pipelines because they carry oil, with donald trump president they say american will keep burning fossil fuels, increasing global warming so the oceans will engulf manhattan. that's from the movie day after tomorrow. but wait a second, it's already the day after tomorrow. where's the water? that movie was made a decade ago. climate change is real, may prove to be a real problem, is this something a president needs to act on now? the protesters say absolutely. but environmental economist reed watson is skeptical, why? >> the environment is healthier now, better now than it has been, particularly in the united states. john: but global warming is a separate issue. you can have a clear air but it can be heating up and the oceans could rise, this is what
most of the protesters are terrified about. >> we simply don't have the evidence to support those claims. john: president obama says nothing poses a greater threat to future generations than climate change. he says already natural disasters happen more often. >> we've seen stronger storms, deeper droughts, longer wildfire seasons. >> show me the evidence, the incident of storms is not going up. no evidence to suggest that over 100-year period the storms are becoming more frequent or more severe. the only kind of storm they're seeing more of ironically in the context of global warming is winter storms. we're seeing a slight uptick in winter storms, severity and frequency, tornado storms, hail storms, all of that is flat. john: president obama talked about jogging in los angeles when he was a teenager. >> after about five minutes, suddenly i had this weird feeling like i couldn't breathe.
back in 1979, los angeles still was so full of smog. john: smog, but smog is actual pollution, not the carbon dioxide the alarmists attack now. the air was filthy when obama went jogging. carbon monoxide, sulfur dioxide, all the pollutants have dropped because of government action, this is something we need government are. >> not necessarily true, not all of that was driven by government action, the clean air act passed early 60s late 70s, it made improvements in air quality but there were improvements happening long before that. when the pollutants peaked in concentrations in the 30s and 40s, roughly 70% of total reduction happened before the clean air act was passed. the epa doesn't like to share that because it erodes the
story they fixed this problem. local governments, state governments, a the love the improvement was done before the federal government got involved in the first place. john: the decrease in pollution is more impressive when you consider we drive more now. we have many more polluting machines, this chart from the epa shows while gdp increased, driving increased. pollution decreased. one reason it decreased is that cars are just better, a car from the 60s that's parked emitted more pollution from leaks than a new car does traveling at full speed. air gets cleaner every time somebody buys a new car. >> indeed, as long as the old cars are taken off the road. the improvements were driven by regulatory requirements and market forces. drivers demanding more fuel efficiency, motivating car companies to deliver more fuel-efficient cars. john: a lot of people said it wouldn't have happened without government force.
>> the evidence is not for that claim either. many of the improvements happened long before the federal government got involved in cleans up our air. as we get wealthier as a society, we demand a cleaner environment. sometimes we used government and the market for that. oftentimes the market produces better results more cheaply and more quickly than the federal option. john: i'm upset the climate change zealots don't seem to be greenhouse gases are different from regular pollution. >> 7 million people die because of pollution related illnesses. john: the arnold schwarzenegger video viewed 15 million times partly because he says provocative things like this. >> it is too costly to fix. i would like to strap their mouth to exhaust pipe of a truck. john: he says 7 million people died from pollution related illnesses, makes you want to act. >> no doubt. most of the deaths are in the
developing world. what's killing the people is not car emissions, it's combustion of coal, the wood, animal deng, inside oil or fuel. john: they burn wherever they have. >> where indoor quality is much more hazardous to your health than outdoor quality. if we want to address the 7 million number, that's an important number. we shouldn't dismiss that. we should think about ways, policies that will improve economic standing, increase economic prosperity. if we adopt policies, renewable fuel standards or emissions standards that will make the countries poor and actually kill more people than it helps. john: thank you very much, you work in montana for perc. >> the property and environment research center. john: thank you for coming all the way to nasty manhattan to
. john: we always hear american health care is a mess. a costly mess. obamacare was supposed to be the savior. now as we know, it isn't. but let's look at the big picture. i'm supposed to be dead. when i was born, most people my age were already dead. the average life expectancy in 1900 was 47. it's increased steadily, now almost 80. it will keeping about it up says dr. marc siegel, regardless who's in the white house. really?
the big picture is just good? things get better? >> science helped us, john, we have public health. we got rid of the sewage, we had the bubonic plague, we got rid of the fleas and rats so people didn't die from. that people are exercising more. diets are better. smart enough to go to a plant based diet. cutting down on smoking which a huge carcinogen, that caused lung cancer, hopefully we'll cut down on alcohol. we have statin drugs that lower cholesterol. antibiotics made a huge difference. we used to die of a scratch, ear infection, now we don't. john: vaccines were a big part. >> huge. john: so successful, many of us forget the diseases they prevent. some of my neighbors had to live in iron lungs because they had polio. 20,000 people were paralyzed. then came the vaccine and no one gets polio in america
when i was a kid, i got the measles, i looked like this kid. hundreds of people got the measles and died. now fewer get measles and there's only one death since 2003. are we getting to diminishing returns? >> i don't think so, in the 21st century, guess what we're aiming at? malaria. 200,000 cases of malaria. it's in stage three trials. john: think about that, 200 million cases of malaria, and one to two million deaths from this disease. >> and we have a very promising vaccine. dengue fever, 400 million case ace year, more than malaria and actually a vaccine out called dengue vaxia, it's useful and being used and another dengue vaccine is coming out this year. the drug companies play a major role for profit.
john: people say it's the nih, companies sell the me too drugs. at the beginning nih came up with the innovation, most of it comes from priority industry? >> and all new medications as well. some of our best scientists are in private industry. john: medical innovation keeps finding new ways to help doctors treat patience. this little girl was born with a severe birth defect. hometown doctors in oregon had no experience with her condition. across the country, doctors said we could help. they used a 3-d printer to create exact replicas of violet's head. they could prepare to operate on her. >> we could see the changes, the growth, the changes in the bony dimensions. this gives me the ability to see on this model better than the operating room where we have to make certain cuts.
that's never been possible before. john: soon we get 3-d printed skins and organs. >> they take scaffolding, if you put a little skin on the scaffolding, you can reproduce an organ, starting to use it for kidney transplants, liver transplants, if you don't have a donor, we may be able to make an organ. john: look at the video from microscope. shows the white blood cell chasing a germ. white blood cells are why you're not dead. they chase down and eat the bacteria that wants to kill us. get this one. yes! a type of white blood cell will chase and eat cancers but cancer cells disguise themselves and hide from t-cells? >> they are smart. cancer turns off the immune system and tells the immune system i'm not, there but now with something called immunotherapy, we're able to find those cells and target them and light them up so the
immune system comes in and kills them. stimulating the immune system that before was asleep to cancer. john: cancer will be cured by this? >> when we personalize this, i think we'll get a cure. john: shouldn't matter who's president? >> shouldn't matter who's president. the wheels of advancement march on. john: thank you dr. marc siegel, fox news medical analyst. next, what will donald trump do about this lie? >> this is a story of the rich getting richer. >> while the poor are poorer.
. >> this is a story of the rich getting richer. >> while the poor getting poorer. john: most polls show americans believe the poor are getting poorer. i understand why they think that. we hear it all the time. >> this rich getting richer thing and the poor getting poorer. >> the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.
john: the last man was the head of the nra, we hear this myth from the left and the right. but what's the truth? what's the big picture. economics professor abby blanco keeps track of the data. what's the proof? >> we look relatively flat. if you look at the bureau of labor statistics. john: we have a graph of that. >> if you look at the data they collected since 1964 wages look relatively flat. john: not for the rich. not the top 1%. >> what are the poorest people in the u.s. able to consume today? so we can look at airline travel or cell phones, computers, cars, even things like living space, and what we see is that the poor today spend much less of income on these items than they did before and they're much more accessible to people today even though they were once exclusively reserved for the wealthiest americans. john: why doesn't that show up on the graphs from the government? and you say relatively flat but
to be exact, the poorest people and middle income people have gained also. the rich got absurdly rich, and the poor did a little better. >> not true at all, we can think about the economy or wealth like a pizza. people operate under the assumption if i get a bigger piece of pizza, you have to get a smaller one. if the economy is growing and getting larger and larger, though the piece of wealth that an individual is getting is smaller, it could be bigger overall. we see the poor and americans in the middle income bracket are doing much better. john: one reason people think the poor are doing worse, they think it's a zero-sum game. hollywood tells them that all the time. >> it's a zero-sum game, somebody wins, somebody loses, money itself isn't lost or made, it's simply transferred. john: that's gordon gekko from the movie wall street. but it is made.
it's not like bill gates took a big piece of the pie so we have less, he baked a million new pies? >> right, we create all kinds of wealth all the time. it's not just sunny side of the street but relatively sunny for the poorest americans as well. john: but donald trump says it's a zero-sum game. if we trade, if china wins, we lose. >> the trade argument is not just wrong, it's spectacularly wrong. nafta created 34 million jobs in the united states, and 6 million jobs tied directly to mexican industry alone. john: how? how does it create jobs? >> creates jobs in ways they're hard to see. we see things creating new businesses, people demanding new kinds of items in innovation, things which weren't there before which are available. econ101 tells us when countries can trade those things that they're good at making that it increases wealth overall. what economists refer to as comparative advantage. comparative advantage says we
should make things that's cheap for us to make and buy from other people the things it's expensive for us to make. we see that in the u.s., we're really good at making service products. we're good at making automobiles, good at making medicines and things like that. it's relatively expensive to produce clothing and other textiles. john: some people lose from trade. some people lose jobs? >> some are knocked out of the jobs they're currently in and certainly we can talk about and be concerned about the people losing their jobs as a result of trade. talk about different ways we might make the transitions easier, but trade overall is a remarkably positive game for all parties involved. john: and the u.n. says a billion people are no longer miserably poor largely because of this trade that trump condemns. >> trade has lifted millions out of poverty, particularly over the last 30 years. we now see the lowest number of people living in absolute
poverty under $2 a day. the lowest it's ever been in recorded human history. and that is directly related to trade. john: so the much vilified trade and globalization. thank you, abby blanco. next, the bad news. the real bad news. the big picture is not all good. democrats and republicans have been driving america off a cliff. that's one thing donald trump and the republicans can do something about, but will they? next. sometimes when brushing my gums bleed.
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. >> the big picture is mostly bright, like that. but there are a few areas where we are in trouble. this is a more accurate picture, if you consider america's debt. a tidal wave is about to hit us. this cartoon, and we're about to show you more, was drawn by micha michael ramirez. a new book by historian alan axelrod. alan, how is debt like a tidal wave? >> debt is all-engulfing. we've allowed it to become this by paying no attention to it.
a baby born today comes into the world owing $61,000, and we know that child did not incur that debt in utero, not fair he comes into the world with the $61,000 debt but so he does, and it acts the same way an unexpected $61,000 debt would act on any of us. it's a kind of drag and a kind of anchor. john: i like the cartoons in his book, when i talk to people, eyes glaze over, carrying debt is like carrying life with a giant weight tied to your feet. the cartoon points out everything that bloats it, college loans, regulations drag us further down. >> correct, it's the debt, the taxation that is not efficient. no matter what you do to stimulate the economy, the structural problems are going to outweigh that.
john: look at this next cartoon from ramirez. this one shows a guy looking down a giant sinkhole that swallowed the white house and congress, he says tell me again how you guys are more qualified to run private business? john: your point? >> if you do not pay any attention to the national debt, year after year after year, the debt becomes not just a hole but a sinkhole, it gets bigger and bigger and bigger and swallows everything up. john: it's about to get bigger than our defense spending? >> correct. the debt service on an annual basis is going to become in the next five years larger than our defense spending, unless of course we decide to spend more on defense which will create a bigger debt. john: finally politicians like to say reducing our debt is a complicated problem. >> this cartoon shows a congressional hearing, the congressman explained reducing
the debt's very difficult, very complicated. but the baby has a simpler answer. john: cut spending. >> politically, it's very hard to do these things because politicians are in the business of giving people things, not asking people to sacrifice these things. john: nobody wants to talk about that. what's remarkable is we could grow our way out of problem. they don't have to cut spending if they just limited the growth 2% a year, we would eventually grow out of problem. they can't stop themselves from spending 4.5% more every year, much m the growth of population. >> correct and, in fact, you don't have to eliminate all debt. incident not a bad thing. john: just stop it from growing and eating us. thank you, alan, author of full faith and credit. another area where the big picture is not so rosy is war.
this election, it got much coverage than sex and lies about e-mails, this is wrong. this is now our 15th year in afghanistan. year 13 in iraq. these are america's longest wars ever. longer than vietnam. we bomb people in all these countries. sometimes we make mistakes. 73-year-old american aid worker warren weinstein who was accidentally killed in cia drone strike in pakistan. john: one remote bombing took out a wedding procession. when we do that we create new enemies. i was encouraged when candidate donald trump said he will reduce our interventions abroad but other times he says things like this -- >> i would bomb the [ bleep ] out of them. i'd blow up the pipes. i'd blow up the refineries. i'd blow up every single inch. there would be nothing left. john: doesn't sound like a guy who wants to reduce interventions abroad.
another thing that's gotten worse is crime. >> violent crime is up in the united states. the fbi released the crime numbers from 2015 and shows a marked rise from the year before. john: and lately trump haters rioted. this and the crime rise are terrible but the silver lining is the riots will probably pass, and while the crime rate is up recently, that's a small increase compared to the long-term downward trend. that good news is part of the big picture that we in the media miss in our urgent drive to cover everything that's terrible. on that hopeful note, up next, more good news, all the celebrities who said they'll leave america if donald trump gets elected. will they go? i hope so. >> i need to come into your country if you let me into your canada.
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fight to protect. those people have convictions. unlike many celebrities ♪ if he were running the free world, where would we move ♪ >> that was barbra streisand thinking about leaving america if trump were elected. >> i need to come into your country if you let me in, or canada. john: she feels strongly, i admire her for standing up for her principles. but she doesn't. she promised to leave before george bush senior won, and again if george w. won. they did. but she's still here. what will it take to get her to go? she's just one of many celebrities who promised to leave if trump were elected. fox news' adam housley reports. >> reporter: hollywood heavyweights plan to follow suit, raven simone, and keegan michael key have pledged to
make the move north should trump win the election. john: but they haven't, neither have the other celebrities who promised to leave. samuel l. jackson, robert de niro, miley cyrus. amy schumer. >> i will move to spain or somewhere. john: they promise but they never go. chelsea handler sounded like she was serious? >> another country just in case. that threatened to leave the country and don't, i will leave that country. john: but now she says her voice is needed in america. they're such hypocrites, makes me respect president kennedy's press secretary, pierre salinger, he said if bush wins, i'm going to spend the rest of my life in france. he did! he moved to france. but the rest of the celebrities all talk. maybe their broken promises make a larger point. no matter how much you hate trump or any politician,
they're probably not going to wreck your life. at election time people fight as if the president has unlimited power, as if life will be great if your guy wins but destroyed if the other guy wins. >> you're only defending him because he's your guy. >> please, i don't have a guy in the election. >> if the other guy did what your guy did, you would be all over him, shouting disgrace! >> democrats are throwing tantrums saying trump will spread hatred and take away people's rights. eight years ago rush limbaugh said if obama wins we're doomed. going to be ugly, gut-wrenching, the country's economy is going to collapse. the economy struggled and there's more debt but it didn't collapse. it's good the election is over now, we'll have less screaming and fortunately the big picture is mostly good, good not because of who is president, but because most of life, the
best of life occurs outside government. thr free people make things better, regardless who the president is. that's our show. see you next week. >> i have a plan. >> i plan to raise new jobs. plans are supervised experts. >> that's why i have asked vice president biden to lead a tough unprecedented over site effort. nobody messes with joe. >> lots of people messed with joe. fraud was massive. >> what is the alternative to government's plan. >> let us alone and we