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tv   Greta Van Susteren  FOX News  June 24, 2013 7:00pm-8:01pm PDT

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let not your heart be troubled. greta standing by to go on the record. we'll see you back here tomorrow night. tonight, surprise, surprise. the irs just completed its own investigation of itself, and concludes that it didn't do anything wrong. really? and news tonight, the screening tactic despite the irs scandal was not limited to targeting conservatives and tea party groups. >> while fact gathering is still under way, we have not found intentional evidence of wrongdoing by anyone in the irs or involvement from anyone outside the irs. furthermore there, is no current evidence of the use of inappropriate screeners or other types of criteria in other irs operations beyond those discussed in the ig report focused on a particular boloist,
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and the ig found there were inappropriate criteria in them. when i got to the irs, we started a more comprehensive review of the operations of this part of the irs. have been looking at documents, and -- and business operations, and we did determine and discover that there are other boloists in place and upon discovering that, we also found that we believe there continued to be inappropriate or questionable criteria on the list. based on the finding, once we came to that conclusion, we took immediate action to suspend the use of these lists, in the exempt organizations unit within the irs. >> so what about the "t" word,
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transparency? the ifrprs will not name who el they targeted. >> nice to see you, greta. >> not just conservative groups but others targeted. >> very preliminary. we don't know exactly what happened. the irs admitted that tea partiers were targeted, even harassed. now talk that there were other groups, groups in the holy land, pro-israel groups were targeted as well. the real question, it's a facts and circumstances case, progress i groups, pro choice groups targeted in the same way that tea party groups, pro-israel groups, conservative groups targeted? >> it changes the dynamic if liberal groups were always targeted. it changes the motive from necessarily being a political motive to something else,
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equally targeting liberal groups. a little bit like if you robbed two gas stations on the same street it doesn't make you better, you still committed robbery. >> the biggest question is not the questioning, unfair questioning. if you are going to do the scrutiny to tea party groups, you have to do it for the other side. >> i'm not so sure. that changes the question. scrutiny has to be fair in and of itself, even asking both side it can't be ridiculous to shove off or owe prose somebody. >> some conservative groups asking what were you praying about? way beyond what a group needs to know. it would change the dynamic of the way this all played out. >> in responsibility e, this lo investigative report that irs did of itself. one of the things they are talking about is creating a risk committee. >> yeah, i think that's something that -- they haven't
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given a lot of details about what that risk committee is -- >> i am sarcastic. it's to help the oversight board, they can't do their job, and they form another committee to help it. do we have to pay for this risk committee? >> the group can self-certify. why do we need the irs to look into the development. >> with some sarcasm, having them fest investigate themselves is the honor system we had in the fifth grade when everyone did remarkably better in grades with the honors system. and ways and means this week? >> i think the key question will be can you show us which liberal groups, which occupy groups were targeted? the ways and means committee had a hearing the other week, conservative after conservative. tea party, pro life. go up, we had this invasive
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questions, budget of $2,000, $3,000, $5,000. and had to go through the wringer. the democrats couldn't say they had one group that was under scrutiny. not on a list, but given scrutiny. >> equal opportunity and unfairly target both sides of the political spectrum, we should get that from the ways and means. thank you. >> thank you, greta. >> is the irs a bully? ohio senator rob portman, accusing them of bullying small, conservative groups that can't afford lawyers. and he's not the only one. but an ohio newspaper is reporting that irs was targeting smaller groups without legal representation. nice to see you, sir. >> thank you for having me. >> tell me, what is the information you have to suggest that the irs targeted smaller groups without lawyers? >> we looked at the nine groups
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from ohio and kentucky that went through the process and were indeed finally did tax exempt status approved, and, you know, we had been interviewing them all along and one them mentioned the fact that he was involved with two of them, and one of them that had a lawyer, had a lawyer and did a more professional application that theirs did not get the level of scrutiny his first attempt did, so that kin of pulled a trigger in my head, and i said, well, maybe i should ask the other ones what they went through and we determined that two of the nine groups from the ohio and kentucky indeed did not have a lawyer when they first started and they did get the extra questioning, while it appears the other seven, while they did get delayed, didn't put nearly the level of the 35 questions that the smaller groups did. >> whether it's deliberate to basically oppress people who didn't have the funds or means
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to hire a lawyer, picking them unfairly, or applications because they did it themselves and more difficult to read and spent more time and required more information. any way to determine which it is of those two? >> it really isn't, and the irs didn't cooperate with my story. we didn't get their side of it as to why this was a potential trend, and i have anecdotes and examples, wasn't just limited to ohio and kentucky. but i would say that the one example that i did talk to, there was a local organizer who helped start the cincinnati tea party, went on to start an umbrella group for ohio, called the ohio liberty coalition and they did that application by themselves and they were indeed targeted with the question. he started another group later on and that group wound up not getting the questioning, indeed, he went through and he got a lawyer and he even said it looked a lot more professional.
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so i did talk to some experts and they said that a lawyer in any situation with the irs is going to help you. it makes you look like you know what you're doing and the irs will take it more for granted that you are doing what you are supposed to be doing or you will say what you are going to do. >> a lot easier to give the irs the benefit of the doubt if they had transparency. the fact that they won't talk to you and explain things to you, and they work for us, you would think they would want to get that information out it would be profoundly easier to give them the benefit of the doubt. thank you, james. >> thank you for having me. the irs admits to targeting more than just conservative groups. the irs and werfel trying to soften it by calling it inappropriate screening methods. aren't they just a bunch of comedians, or are they serious? senator lindsay graham joins us. >> i love the softening term they use. >> here is the big picture, who
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did they pick and why? people criticizing the president. that's all you need to know. no accident they picked conservative groups, tea party groups, giving obama a hard time, particularly on obama care. to reach any other conclusion is absurd. >> i guess they have to do internal review, first report to come out, they are looking at themselves. it reminds me of fifth grade when we all got on the honorroll because we are on the honor system. >> remember the bush days? when everything that could be investigated by an independent group was asked to be investigated by senator obama? what happened to this most transparent, ethical administration in the history of mankind? starting with obama care, passed under the cover of darkness, benghazi, have you heard from any of the survivors? i haven't heard from any of the
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survivors? >> i have not. let's go on to something else. you said that the reset relations between russia and the united states is in serious jeopardy. china thumbing its nose at us. >> this is exhibit "a" of how far we've fallen as a nation in the eyes of the world. our friends aren't sure of us, and our enemies don't fear us. snowden is not a patriot, not a hero, betray eed his country. these countries have an obligation if they want to be part of the family of nations to return this man for prosecution. but this says a lot about president obama in the eyes of our adversaries and the world in general and how far we have fallen. >> hong kong, the doj was asked for more information, and they didn't get it. a 29-year-old access to security stuff, we know where he goes and we can't even get him.
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>> we have a lot of incompetency. i'll be the first to admit that. some isn't incompetency. a lot of folks in the obama administration are up to no good. the chinese or people in hong kong, didn't cross the "is" and dot the "ts." anybody who thinks america is a better place based on what this guy did. america is a more dangerous place because of what he did. >> the nsa chief says he would give us 50 instances. if we're on monday and supposed to get it last week and haven't gotten the 50 instances, it's hard to believe on faith. >> it's good thing to monitor terrorist phone calls and e-mails and found out a lot about what they were up to. you won't stop these guys -- they don't mind dying and take youing with them. >> prove it to us. don't say -- he says he's going to give us this information and
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doesn't. it makes it more unbelievable. >> the program may be destroyed already. >> a lot of american people, people are horrified about what snowden did, but also wonder about nsa. >> the nsa program is designed to monitor terrorist phone calls and e-mails when they call somebody or e-mail sent within the united states, you have to get a warrant. anwr awlaki, the guy in yemen, talking to a major in the united states army, major hassan, and they were conversing with each other and they missed that. >> you are telling me this is a great program that has been thwarted, boston, this, and a lot of failures, and the head of nsa saying i will give you 50 instan instances, and we haven't gotten them. >> the program is good, but we're still too politically
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correct. any time a major in the u.s. army is talking to someone on the kill list, i want to know about it. >> what is the reset really an issue? >> hillary clinton and barack obama came into office and they were going to clean up the world after bush. bush was this big ogre that made the world a very bad place, and obama was going to give speeches, and hillary reset with the russians. we have reset, and we're in 1965. who would you pick in a staredown contest between putin and obama? secretary clinton, did she really reset relations with russia? what happened in benghazi, who changed the talking points? this administration's foreign policy is a failure. enemies have absolutely no respect for us. if you want to understand how relations are between russia the united states and china snowden tells you all you need to know. they have failed in securing our
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national security, in securing us as a nation. failed to earn respect. bush made his mistakes, but the biggest mistake of all is the president of the united states to tell the president we'll do something is redlines. >> senator, nice to see you. now to tonight's hot button issue on gretawire.com. is the obama administration making america look feckless since we can't find snowden? vote. new problems for paula deen. our legal panel here to talk about that. and plus after everything he said about the movie industry, has rick santorum now gone h hollywood? will he be dangling bling bling around his neck? we live in strange times. vietnam in 1972.
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in the moment. chase quickpay. so you can. >>. >> this is a fox news alert. the senate clearing a key hurdle in immigration overhaul, the senate voting to limit security on the border amendment. great news for the supporters of the senate bill. we spoke with marco rubio, member of the gang of eight.
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so big vote tonight in the u.s. senate, 67-27, on the border security amendmenamendment. what does that mean big picture? >> we made improvements for the bill. 700 miles of fencing. can't take it out in the future like in the past. 20,000 new borer agents, doubling the size of the border patrol. mandated technology. at a minimum, this is what the secretary of homeland security can do. some are saying she can ignore that, but she can't. minimum standards, real improvement on the border security. i have been saying it for weeks now, that the border security elements of the bill needed to be strengthened. >> is the border security going to be set in place before anything else happens, like anyone given any legal status, that might be here illegally? or done simultaneously? >> there are people illegally in the country now.
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we will identify those people, they will pay fine, undergo a background check and get a temporary work permit. >> now, are we doing that -- i mean, before the security for the border, many people -- many americans want security first at the border and then we start the process. >> we need to understand the prize here, what they really want, is the permanent status, the green card, the permanent status, it cannot happen until 700 miles of fence is completed. e-verify is in place, and the tracking system is in place, the technology plan is fully in place, and 20,000 new border agents, hired, trained, deployed, and ten years has to go by before anyone who violated our immigration laws can apply for the green card. in the interim, if you are here illegally, we want to know who you are. undergo a background check, pay fine, start paying taxes and you will get a temporary permit. you won't be able to get obama
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care, food stamps, welfare, any of the other programs. we need to know who these people are. >> if i took a transcript of everything you just said outlining the bill in the last minute and a half it would be 15 pages of transcript. why this bill has to be 1,200 pages? a lot of americans are suspicious that it means loopholes, special projects, senators shoving something in? why can't we do a bill in your 15 pages? >> the amendment is only 100-some odd pages. >> that's 100. >> 100 pages, the amendment. the reason why the existing bill is lengthy, it doesn't just deal with border security, it reforms legal immigration system away from a family-based system, away from chain migration and toward a merit-based system. completely reworked future immigration so it's more skills based. that's the existing bill. the amendment basically took the
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existing bill and added 100 something pages, primarily of the border security requirements, people told us they didn't want to leave it to janet napolitano to design the spl plan, so we designed it for her. >> any senator that gets something special for a stittcy in this bill? >> i don't think some of. >> let me ask a question. a special provision for people fishing alaska, right? >> that's not accurate. guest workers who are fisherman, it allows them to apply for a temporary work visa to work in alaska. the fisheries have a particular issue that they want to use a work permit. it's not a giveaway, not cash. >> why do we have to make it special, different, for alaska? why can't we make this uniform? >> that's an issue specific to a region of the country. the fishing fleet out there, all domestic, but there are parts of
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the country that use foreign workers from time to time to do the fishing. in any legislative process, they will say they have a special need in their part of the country, but this is not a giveaway like cash. visa that p to apply for, pay for. >> many americans are frustrated with the complexity of the st statutes. why do we have to section out different parts of the country. why can't the whole country -- there will be special worker needs in other parts of the country. if, indeed, that should be in the statute. you give little special ones to that particular part of the country because they have a particular concern, that's what makes people suspicious that some are getting special deals. >> i understand that, i do. and fully understand people's suspicious of government, and i am generally not in favor of big pieces of legislation for those reasons. our immigration system when it comes to temporary workers regional. crops seasonal. you need workers that work
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seasonally. and other crops like the nursery industry in florida is year round. a different kind of worker that needs a different kind of permit. depending on agriculture in your state, are you interested in the legal process for people to woman cocome work. >> if you do seasonal work, you do around the clock, around the year, do you around the clock. you start to make it more complex. if we want guest workers, we want guest workers, if we don't, we don't. >> an agricultural worker is different than a construction worker. you don't need as many guest workers for construction. some people would dispute that. have you more domestic workers available for construction than those workers picking tomatoes. here is another thing, you want to bring a guest worker from
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abroad, you want to make sure you pay to bring them here, a week later, they aren't working for someone else's farm, you paid to bring them here. other people want to bring a worker that can work for anybody, a free agent. you don't have to pay to bring them here. >> what about gay couples? not in the gang of eight or bill that came out of senate judiciary committee. a lot of gay americans are wondering what will happen with gay couples. what is the status of that? we are standing by to see what the supreme court does this week on doma. what is the plan now? >> any individual can apply for legal status in the future. guest worker, green card applicant, any individual can deal with that. the bill doesn't deal with same-sex couples. i'm telling you if that is in the bill, it will kill the bill. this bill has significant challenges the way it is, there is a lot of suspicion quite
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frankly about how it will do, how it will work. if that's added into that bill, that provision you just outlines about same-sex couples it will doom the bill to fail. >> no way to sort of for people who exert leadership, giving up the issues that everyone thinks are difficult but happen to mean a lot to many americans. if we do comprehensive, let's face these tough issues? >> here is how i view it. for years, before i came here, when i talked to people about immigration they would say to america let's finish the fence, build the border fence where it's needed. this bill regulates that, mandates that, and the future congress can't come and cut the money. we need an e-verify system that works. this bill does that. we need border patrol agents, this bill does that. more technology on the border and apply specific technology, don't leave it to the support of homeland security. this bill has a bunch of things that conservatives and many americans have been asking for
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specifically for years. it now requires it. and the reason why we know it will happen, or we think it will force them to do it, you ccan't the reasgreen card. if you violated immigration laws, you can't even apply for a green card, much less get one. >> senator, we'll see this bill will come out of the senate and pass. we'll see what happens when it gets to the house. thank you, sir. coming up, new trouble tonight for paula deen. it threatens the celebrity chef's entire empire. sxwun of the last places you would expect to find him. is senator rick santorum really going hollywood? it's true, coming up. the kyocera torque lets you hear and be heard
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the inappropriate, hurtful language. it's totally, totally unacceptable. i have may plenty of mistakes along the way, but i beg you, my children, my team, my fans, my partners, i beg for your forgiveness. >> celebrity chef paula deen can't seem to get out of hot water. first, sued by a former employee for racial discrimination. and as that controversy boils o over, she is facing losing contracts. we are gloria allred and ted williams. ted, for obvious reasons, you can probably explain this. tell me your thoughts? >> when you allegedly use the "n" word that is very racially
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incentive, and it should never be used. paula deen is 66 years of age, group in the savannah, georgia, area, and probably used down there a lot. now, she had to give testimony in this deposition, and she could have lied, but she told the truth, and the bottom line, you have to wonder, what will happen to these guys who have now decided they want to terminate her contract. you bond every how many of them have used the "n" word. have you supreme court justices, you have senators, members of the ku klux klan and have survived. she should survive this. >> should she? >> i don't think we should put a hammer on her head. she should pay for it, but should survive it. >> gloria, your thought? >> i think they didn't give adequate apologies, that's for sure. a series of fumbled apologies,
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deciding she wasn't going to appear on the "today" show after she committed to being on the "today" show. and doing the video apologies. she didn't have the courage to go on and face the questions about what she said. what did she say? apparently at some point she said she used the "n" word, not in a cruel or mean way. is there a good way to use the "n" word? i don't think so. and it wasn't an isolated comment. apparently she's used it more than once. so in order to be forgiven, they will have to clearly acknowledge what she's said and take responsibility for what she has said and ask for forgiveness. >> gloria, chris rock, a lot of black comedians, rappers using it. it should never be used in our society, but, unfortunateli, it's out there. >> well, you know, chris rock is
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african-american. paula deen obviously is not. the history of the "n" word as you know it very well. >> wait a minute, are you saying it makes a difference? how dare you! it's offensive for anybody to use it. >> a little courtesy i request in these circumstances. let me tell you, it's been used by white people historically against african-americans to denigrate them to hurt them, to terrorize them, deny them employment and educational opportunities. it's not the same when an african-american uses it. >> we'll give ted a quick response. >> i hear what you are saying. it is offensive for anybody to use it i don't ever use it, don't want anybody to use it, whether they are black or white, i don't think it's in our -- should be in our society. >> panel, stay with us. i'm taking us to break. coming up, new information in
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the aaron hernandez investigation. why are place in wet suits searching around his house? a live report from boston, next. and no joke. jim carrey is slamming his own new movie, why would he do that? two minutes away. hey. they're coming. yeah. british. later. sorry. ok...four words... scarecrow in the wind... a baboon... monkey? hot stew saturday!? ronny: hey jimmy, how happy are folks who save hundreds of dollars switching to geico? jimmy: happier than paul revere with a cell phone. ronny: why not? anncr: get happy. get geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more. when i first felt the diabetic nerve pain, of course i had no idea what it was. i felt like my feet were going to sleep. it progressed from there to burning like i was walking on hot coals...
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. >>. >>. >> v8 v-fusion plus energy. natural energy from green tea plus fruits and veggies. need a little kick? ooh! could've had a v8. in the juice aisle. comedian jim carrey doing a 180 and producers are not laughing. carrey says he will no longer support it. i did "kickass" a month before newtown, and i can no longer support the violence. ♪ golden hands, golden hands ♪ you're a big, big man with a
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ted, what's the latest? >> reporter: aaron hernandez remains in his home tonight. we have not seen him since friday when he returned from boston, about 40 miles away, where he met with his attorneys, he remained home secluded, today state police were back in north attleboro searching a creek a couple blocks from hernanhernan home. one of the divers had a metal detector. on saturday, back at hernandez' home for the second time, where they executed a search warrant there. basically what our sources are telling us is that hernandez has not been ruled out in the totality of this veinvestigatio. anyone who may have information or knowledge about the death of 27-year-old odin lloyd from dorchester, massachusetts, a boston suburb, and the focus
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appears to be in the area surrounding hernandez' home. you have the crime scene, about a mile away from the home and the search areas all focused around here, and a whiait and s game. an intense amount of activity dealing directly and around aaron hernandez. greta. >> ted, thank you. and the murder investigation is not hernandez' only legal trouble. the patriots tight end facing a lawsuit in florida, accusing him of shooting a man in the faith. the man's lawyer joins us. nice to talk to you. what is the allegation in your lawsuit that mr. hernandez did? >> greta, good evening, the allegation is that he shot my client in the hand and in the face. >> and as a consequence of getting shot in the hand and face, any permanent damage? sound like there would be. >> pretty outrageous. the bullet went into his face,
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shattered several facial bones and blasted the left eyeball right out of his head. >> this happened -- the shooting happened back in february in south florida, right? >> correct. >> and at the time of the shooting, i imagine the police spoke to your client and said what happened? >> he -- after he was shot, they came and visited him in the hospital. in pretty bad shape at the time. he was scared. hernandez and his buddies had left mr. bradley for dead, in circumstances similar to what we're hearing about in massachusetts. left him shot and wounded in an industrial park down in the rivera beach of florida and my client was afraid. the reports are true, he didn't give up hernandez, because he was scared. >> so he was never arrested and charged with the shooting, hernandez? >> as far as i know, correct. but i understand florida police
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are investigating. >> the other two in the car, have they spoken to the police? or have you spoken to them? >> i haven't spoken to them, the police haven't shared with me the contents of their investigation. but it was hernandez and two other buddies of his. >> what is your client's relationship to hernandez? >> my client was working as a personal assistant for hernandez. they were partying, at a strip club, again, similar circumstances to what happened in massachusetts. they got into an altercation, and the allegation is that mr. hernandez shot mr. bradley in the face. >> what were they fighting about? >> i don't have the details about that. in the car, driving on the way from the miami area to palm beach, and at some point they all got out of the car and in a remote area, and that's where the shooting took place. >> all right. elizabeth, thank you for joining
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us, and we'll keep in touch. thank you. >> thank you. thank you for having me. >> back with ted williams. ted. >> you know. >> your advice for mr. hernandez tonight? >> to keep his mouth shut and lay low. i'm sure that's the advice lawyers have given him. but the authorities seem to be toying with him. as you know, last week, every news network that carried there was an arrest warrant, they had to back off an arrest warrant. it was supposeded to be for destruction of property. the house cleaned. >> don't tell me, the media got it wrong. >> i don't know, maybe the cops got it wrong. destruction of a cell phone and destruction of a security camera. greta, he can destroy all those things unless they can show a nexus between the destruction of these various items and the crime, he can do it. >> gloria, your thoughts? what is your advice for mr.
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aaron hernandez, the subject of a lot of suspicion? >> obviously befomr. hernandez not need to speak to law enforcement. it may be in his interest if he had nothing to do with this. on the other hand, if there is a warrant for obstruction of justice for destruction of evidence, if it's true that his cell phone was in pieces when law enforcement got it, he had his house scrubbed down soon after the alleged murder took place, that, in fact, he destroyed the security system or it was destroyed contemporaneously with the alleged crime, then he's got a problem. because you don't have to speak to police, you cannot destroy evidence and we don't know whether he did that or not, or just a rumor. >> ted, i'd be worried about if i were mr. hernandez, if the police had taken the other two,
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split them up, and the first one to run to the well gets the best drink. >> very accurate there, and i would suspect law enforcement has done that. >> they are all keeping quiet. may be innocent too. >> they may be keeping quiet, one of the things, unless something happened in the house, which we don't know, but some cleaning of that house, they have been on that house in numerous occasions. they are probably looking to see if they can find some trace evidence, get a connection between hernandez and this crime. >> they are probably looking to connect somebody to the car and the car to the body. >> i would have to agree with you there. >> no reason to push the warrant, he is not going anywhere. not a flight risk. may have other problems, but not a flight risk. gloria, ted, thank you very much. straight ahead, rick santorum didn't have a lot of fans in hollywood in the 2012 race, so how is he getting into the movie business? find out next. ♪
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>> greta: okay, it's time to hash it out. a shout out to rick santorum. hollywood reporter reporting rick santorum becomes ceo of faith based echo light studios so now, he'll be scmoozing with hollywood a lifters. so congratulations on your new gig, mr. senator. and mark this day on the calendar, it's july 15th, come back day. usa today reporting the new twinkie boxes will have the tag line the sweetest come back in the history of ever. hosts is returning the twinkie
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to neighborhood shelves, probably better there than in your stomach so let the twinkie countdown again. and our oops award of the day goes to united airlines huffington post reporting airlines forget toilet paper on 10-hour flight. the peaks had to make do with cocktail napkins instead. now the airline apologized and said if the plane stopped the flight would have been delayed. tough choice but we report, you decide. so... does former nfl star chad johnson pull off this stunt? his fans asking if i can make ate cross the grand canyon. and he says i can't make knit court rather than the grand canyon. the judge decided to slap him with 30 days in jail for that stunt. he apologized and she did let
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him out a little early. let's just hope he keeps snarkiness to twitter and not the courtroom. don't forget to follow me on twitter at gretawire. and coming up everyone in washington all on alert today. what are we on the lookout for? it wasn't edward snowden. the answer is next. every day we're working to be an even better company - and to keep our commitments. and we've made a big commitment to america.
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[ chirp ] all good? [ chirp ] getty up. seriously, this is really happening! [ cellphone rings ] hello? it's a giant helicopter ma'am. [ male announcer ] get it done [ chirp ] with the ultraugged ocera torque, only from sprint direct conct. buy one get four free for your business. >> greta: time for last call. you'll see a red panta -- panda and today the zoo put outanda alert z all day, zoo keepers looked all over and he was spotted hiding in a nearby neighborhood. he's now home, safe and sound. thank you for being with us tonight. go to gretawire.com. i just put a special question up there. only for thofs you who watched "on the record tonight" give
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your advice to paula deen. let us know what you thought about the show. good night from washington, d.c.. the factor next. >> laura: the o'reilly factor is on. tonight: >> george zimmerman is not guilty of murder. he shot trayvon martin in self-defense after being viciously attacked. >> laura: the george zimmerman, trayvon martin murder trial finally gets underway as the defense plays the dramatic 911 tape. >> 911, do you need police, fire or medical? >> maybe both. i'm not sure. there is just someone screaming outside. >> what is your -- --just heard gun shows. shots. >> we are following all the appropriate legal channels and working with other countries to make sure the rule of law is observed. >> laura: where in the world was edward know den. he was a

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