tv Greta Van Susteren FOX News July 19, 2013 10:00pm-11:01pm PDT
>> true. all right, that is all the time we have left this evening. let not your heart be troubled, the news continues right here on fox and we'll see you back here on monday. the verdict, we the jury find george zimmerman not guilty. >> the whole damned system. >> no justice, no peace. >> murder is a crime. >> trayvon. >> george zimmerman was never guilty of anything except protecting himself from
self-defense. >> hopefully we can change something in the justice system because something is definitely wrong. >> we are very, very, very saddened, but we accept the jury's verdict in this case. >> this is no surprise. >> we all have had a laser beam focused on seeing george act quilted and we ability, slept and breathed this case and this acquittal. >> it's time to question laws that senselessly expand the concept of self-defense in our neighborhoods. >> this is a special edition of "on the record" shockwaves from sanford. the george zimmerman case, a lightning rod from the very beginning, the night of february 26, 2012, when zimmerman fatally shot trayvon martin. >> one dead, another up for shooting in sanford. police say they were called out to a home in the 2100 block of retreat circle. >> neighbors are still shocked, they say this is the most bizarre thing for their
neighborhood. they say it's such a quiet neighborhood, and that george zimmerman was a member of the neighborhood watch. >> he was going to store. >> does he look hurt to you? >> we understand that the local fbi office has been in contact with the local authorities and is monitoring the situation. >> no justice. >> no peace. >> protests and marches continue today across the country. in washington, chicago, and st. louis. >> don't talk to us like we're stupid. don't talk to us like we're ignorant. we love our children like you love yours. >> a day after the sanford, florida police chief stepped down temporarily two -- >> we stand by the sanford police department, it's personnel and the investigation that was conducted in regards to the trayvon martin case, it's apparent that my involvement in this matter is overshadowing the
process. >> i think every parent in america should be able to understand why it is absolutely imperative that we investigate every aspect of this. but my main message is to the parents of trayvon martin. if i had a son, he would look like trayvon. >> a dramatic day in central florida involving one of the most controversial police investigations in our nation. the neighborhood watch captain george zimmerman is now in custody and he faces a second-degree murder charge. >> today we filed an inspection charging george zimmerman with murder in the second-degree. >> we simply wanted an arrest. we wanted nothing more, nothing less and we got it. >> i think the state decided to charge him, he's concerned about getting a fair trial. and a fair presentation. >> we are learning new information about the night trayvon martin was killed. a medical report shows that george zimmerman received injuries in a scuffle that drove him to shoot the team. >> two black eyes, two
lacerations on the back of his head, bruising to the upper lip and cheek, but he was not diagnosed with a concussion. >> is there anything you regret? do you regret getting out of the car to follow trayvon that night? >> no, sir. >> do you regret that you had a gun that night? >> no, sir. >> do you feel you wouldn't be here for this interview if you didn't have that gun? >> no, sir. >> more than a year since trayvon martin was killed, george zimmerman just walking into that courtroom as opening statements in his second-degree
murder trial is about to begin. >> george zimmerman did not shoot trayvon martin because he had to, he shot him for the worst of all reasons, because he wanted to. >> trayvon martin armed himself with the concrete sidewalk and used it to smash george zimmerman's head. >> so when you were then talking with mr. trunk in this reported interview, for the first time ever being asked to tell the story about what you knew, you were in a hurry and among the things that you chose not to say was that before the phone cut off, but after the -- you heard trayvon martin say get off get off. >> the person you now know to be trayvon martin was on top. >> correct. >> and the person he was raining -- >> follow him to see where he was going? >> legally speaking, no. >> certainly hope that your son trayvon martin would not have done anything that would have led to his own death, correct? what i hope for is that this would have never happened and he would still be here. >> i can't see him, i don't want to go out there i don't know what's going on. >> do you know whose voice that was screaming in the background? >> yes, sir. >> and whose voice was that? >> my son, george. >> who do you reck that to be
then? >> trayvon benjamin martin. >> my brother. >> trayvon? >> yes, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that that is george zimmerman. >> after consulting with council not to testify, your honor. >> if this person, this man again were carrying a firearm on their waist, where would the gun be right now in relation to me? >> it would be at your left inner think. >> would the injuries on the back of his head be consistent with this. >> why would he get out of the car if he thinks that trayvon martin would be a threat to him? why? because he's got a gun. he's got an equalizer. he wants to be a cop.
>> the person who decided this was going to continue, that it was going to become a violent event was the guy who didn't go home when he had a chance to. >> i almost wish that the verdict had guilty, not guilty, and completely innocent. because i would ask you to check that one. you got to check the not guilty. check the innocent one too. trayvon martin may not have the defendant's blood on his hands, but george zimmerman will forever have trayvon martin's blood on his. >> the verdict, we the jury find george zimmerman not guilty. >> how can they say not guilty for anything? this man did not follow the law! >> the justice department shares your concerns. i share your concerns. and as we first acknowledged
last spring, we have opened an investigation into this matter. >> i think the prosecution of george zimmerman was disgraceful. as happy as i am for george zimmerman, i'm thrilled that this jury kept this tragedy from becoming a travesty. >> he needs to be held accountable for hiss crime. that is not what happened today. >> as the justice department said yesterday, they first acknowledged last year that they had an open investigation into trayvon martin's death and they continue to evaluate that evidence. >> george zimmerman was never guilty of anything except protecting himself with self-defense. >> you have a 17-year-old kid who was minding his own business, wearing a hoodie, gets accosted, gets followed by an individual who wants to be a
cop. >> cases are brought on the merits and the merits are evaluated by the professionals at the department of justice. and the president expects, as in every case, that the process will be handled in the way it should be at the department of justice and certainly not here. >> we are very, very saddened, but we accept the jury's verdict in this case. >> the evidence didn't support prosecution, the justice department engaged in this, the president engaged in this and turned it into a political issue that should have been handled exclusively with law and order. >> we go to sanford to see how this case started. we go back to the scene to trace scription of zimmerman and martin. >> if you take a look at this 7-eleven, you'll see that it's like any other 7-eleven. at approximately 6:24 made the
purchase of iced tea and also skittles. he came out after the purchase and went approximately a quarter of a mile down this direction, to the area where he eventually ran into george zimmerman. but this is where it all began and what's important to notes that at the time this purchase was made, 6:24, it was dark outside, and it was a very rainy night here in sanford, florida. eyewitness testimony in a case like this one is critical. the decedent can't tell you what happened and the deft, george zimmermain this instance has given a re-enactment of what he says happened. so we came out here tonight just to sort of fact check to see whether or not anyone who was in these apartments might have been able to see a little bit more or see a little bit less. you can see as we walk that there is not a lot of light back here other than the occasional
apartment casting some light out and when the lights aren't on here, i can tell you that i can't identify someone five feet in front of me, it's that dark back here, at least now. and i assume the lighting conditions back here are very much similar to what they were at night on february 26th. this is the area right here, to my right, which is where the decedent's body was found and where george zimmerman says that he was lying and where he hit his head was pounded against the cement was about here. and of course, here to orient you, this is the area right here. and according to george, george had walked -- george was down to my left. he had made his phone call to the police. and he intended to go this direction and go towards the clubhouse which was down there. and between the last second that george zimmerman, phone records show, between the last time he hung up with the police, and the time a 911 call was put by a citizen that there was something going on, about a minute and 24 seconds, so presumably, something happened right about
here and it will be the jury's job to decide who was the aggressor, whether george was defending himself or not. and of course that's a task we give the jury and the prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt its case and the defense has to prove absolutely nothing. now the jury has spoken, but as in many trials, questions still linger as to what really happened on that dark night, especially during those four crucial minutes. defense attorney ted williams joins us, welcome, ted. you and i went out to the scene, you were there with me when we walked back there. and there was a four-minute period, and the four-minute period was the time that george zimmerman told him he was going to run and i'm going to subtract a minute off to three minutes because someone has to go from the fight to making the phone call to 911. is that time reference important and why? >> yeah, it's important and i can tell you, greta, i've been racking my mind about it because
those are the four minutes where trayvon martin, if he so wished could have ran and perhaps gone home. and i tried to put myself in the place of trayvon for those four minutes. and all i can think of is that four minutes to us, and if you remember, mr. o'mara, the defense attorney played it in court and emphasized these four minutes. i have thought about it. trayvon, i wonder what is going through his head, because it's dark, it's rainy, a silhouette is following you, you're on the phone with genteel, do i want to bring this person home with me? why is this person following me? and all of that was going on in this young child's mind i would have to believe. and that's a lifetime for him. and greta, you know how dark it was back there.
i heard you and you're right, you couldn't even see about five feet in front of you when there was no silhouette lighting. so i wonder what was going through his head, why didn't he run home, why didn't he return to safety. did he run towards zimmerman, did zimmerman run towards him. there's so many questions. >> this is the point that viewers have to understand, it's not what really did happen out there, because nobody knows, because no one can hear from trayvon martin. but the prosecution had to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that george zimmerman was the aggressor. and with that four-minute gap and the opportunity to one home, the jurors, i can see quite reasonably would think i'm not
sure whether he was really scared or whether she was standing to confront or whatever. but absent proof beyond a reasonable doubt, that high burden, that's what the prosecution was dealing with that made it so difficult. it's the burden of proof in the case. >> it was the burden of proof, and you're right, i think unfortunately, when you look at the evidence when you look at this four-minute period, that there's clearly, in the minds of the jurors could have been reasonable doubt. so i could. agree with you more. greta, until this moment, there's another question mark. why do they go with second-degree murder in this case? when you look at the totality of the circumstances, it's incredible. >> ted, thank you. and straight ahead, what was george zimmerman thinking when he heard the jury deliver its verdict. his brother robert zimmerman is next. also you're going to hear from alternate juror number 54, he was there the entire time for testimony and what did he find most compelling? that's coming up. [ male announcer ] come to the golden opportunity sales event and experience the connectivity of the available lexus enform, including the es and rx.
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we're sending a message as a society in our communities that someone who is armed potentially has the right to use those firearms, even if there's a way for them to exit from a situation, is that really going to be contributing to the kind of peace and security and order that we would like to see? and for those who resist that idea that we should think about something like these stand your ground laws, i just ask people to consider if trayvon martin
was of age and ampled, could he have stood his ground on that sidewalk? and do we actually think that he would have been justified in shooting mr. zimmerman who had followed him in a car because he felt threatened? and if the answer to that question is at least ambiguous, then it seems to me that we might want to examine those kinds of laws. >> president obama speaking about the trayvon martin case for the first time since the zimmerman verdict. the president questioning whether stand your ground laws really contribute to peace and security. george zimmerman found not guilty in the shooting of trayvon martin. how did george zimmerman prepare for the verdict? we asked his brother, robert zimmerman? >> how is your brother tonight? >> his whole life changed, his life changed when those words were uttered, not guilty. it changed for all of us. we were waiting for that exoneration for a really long time. >> was your brother expecting something different than not guilty to manslaughter? and how did he prepare himself?
>> i can't speak to what he was thinking because it changes. he was the only person who had to be there every single there. he encountered every juror, every bit of testimony, and we did not because we were excluded from the courtroom. george is a spiritual person, i know that he feels that he is innocent and he felt well represented. >> we often times as lawyers, we work hard during the day and we say good buy to our client and work and prepare for the next day.
the client goes home. and we never really have time to find out how the client's doing. are there moments of great sorrow and nervousness, did george cry during this time? >> my parents were in the courtroom, and my parents said he did get emotional right when the verdict was announced he said mom, i want to go home and he started to get very relieved and emotional. >> what did you say to him after the verdict. >> i said to him, and i said it in spanish, which was the last thing i said to him before his bond was revoked which means god bless you little brother. that's exactly what he needed to hear and that's exactly what i needed to say. >> you mentioned the spanish, it's no secret that this has a racial overtone. people have been saying things all along. your brother is hispanic. what's your thought about it. because many people, but people see white against black or black against white and the missing element here is that your family is hispanic. >> its unfortunate that race has any role in this situation at all. and i think the prosecutor in her press conference said that race did have no role in this case. but as a family, we were
deliberate to keep our heritage and our hispanic identity off the table because it was becoming white versus black and we didn't see any good in injecting any race into that scenario, or ethnicity. so i think that keeping our race out of it was very deliberate and very wise and it was something my mother insisted upon early and often. >> my sister called and you are dad had just been hospitalized weeks and days before. i thought when she told me that someone had died, that it was one of them. but she told me, no, it involves george, which was kind of mysterious, i said what happened gracie? she said well he was involved in an altercation and he used his gun to defend himself. but george is going to call you and fill you in himself, he wants to tell you the truth and everyone in this family the
truth from hids own -- his own mouth. he did call and basically explain what we know to be the truth now. >> he looked so unemotional, i am just looking on the outside and he looks so unemotional, sort of flat. >> he was innocent. >> i know. but to some people, if you falsely accuse me of something, sometimes i get angry. if you accuse me of something i didn't do, i get. >> we're brothers and i'm a little bit more lively and he's more steady as you go, very responsible, very warm hearted and he, i think that anybody in that situation has to be very careful how they, you know, express themselves in front of the people who are going to decide your fate. >> coming up, alternate juror e-54 telling all about the evidence and his fellow jurors. that's next. also the fbi's message to sanford police, do not give
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when people come together, good things happen. to learn more, visit coke.com/comingtogether alternate juror e-54 is telling all. what did he think about the witnesses, the evidence and the verdict in the zimmerman trial. >> reporter: thank you so much for being here today, first of all, what did you think of the verdict? >> well, i was -- i supported the verdict. i agreed with it. >> and was there anything in the evidence, in the testimony that really came out at you? >> i think the things that i focused on when i was doing my own deliberation was the nonemergency phone call, i did pick up some things out of rachel genteel's testimony,
trayvon martin's phone records, or her phone records when they were talking. >> of course rachel genteel is the one that trayvon was talking to right before the shooting on the cell phone. >> correct. and the earwitnesses, the withins who heard the noises, they helped me fill the gap. and i think the one thing that stands out the most is the injuries to george zimmerman. >> when you talk about mma style ground and pound? >> when i -- what i got from that was just the motions that he saw. whether it was ground and pound,
mma, it wasn't relevant to me, it was just the motions and the fact of who he saw on top and who he thought was on the bottom. i think those were more relevant features of his testimony to me. >> do you think that rachel was credible? >> i do think she was credible. >> and whose voice do you think was on the 911 call? >> i -- personally, i can't tell you who it was. but from the witnesses' testimonies, and from george zimmerman, i believe it to be him. >> you believe that it was george zimmerman? >> yes. >> so you would have voted not guilty? >> correct. >> what did you think of b-37, the juror who spoke out? did you see that interview? >> i did, yeah. i was surprised that anybody could come out that quickly and talk about this.
i'm not surprised that it was her. i just think it's a little too soon. >> and what's your reaction to all the protests, demonstrations and the talk of a civil rights complaint now? >> i just don't understand the civil rights complaint. i didn't see the evidence there in the courtroom that would make anybody believe that there was a civil rights case for this. the protests, the people are going to be angry no matter what the verdict was. and there's nothing we can do
about that. i just hope that they're peaceful. and that they just do it as calmly and as best as they can. and there's no destruction and not hatred and not a lot of anger towards the jurors. >> i know ctive, we talked abou some of the key witnesses, whether it be john good or rachel genteel, who to you were the witnesses? >> one key witness to me was george zimmerman during the nonemergency call. as far as i'm concerned, that was the -- that was direct evidence of what he was doing and how he was communicating and i think that was key to his mentality at the time. you know, there was a lot of emphasis on whether he was showing ill will, spite or hatred. and i didn't see that. there was no evidence to support that in that phone call. >> so you didn't think he was profiling? >> i didn't think he was profiling. i think he characterized trayvon martin as a suspicious character, suspicious person and that was all. >> and what else is there? >> another key thing for me was the tying of rachel's testimony
to when she was on the phone with trayvon, and, you know, you can't really -- you can't say what she was saying when except for when the phone disconnected and then she called back and she talked to him again. at that point, trayvon said he had lost the man and he was at where his father was staying, he was at that place. at the same time, that happening, george zimmerman had only just gotten out of his car about 25, 30 seconds.
so he was still up at the t. and trayvon, rachel's testimony would have been down at the other end of the buildings at some point. so somehow the two of them got back together at the top of the t. we don't know how that happened, but in all likelihood in my mind, even if george zimmerman had walked out of where trayvon was, they both walked back up to the t. so that would have implied that trayvon had followed george zimmerman back up. if george zimmer marine had not walked down there, then trayvon walked back down to the t. most of the witnesses according to the noiszs went the other direction. but the majority of them had the noise coming from the top of the t down to the trunk where john good saw him laying on the ground and trayvon on top of george zimmerman.
and i believe that john good said that i believed this it was zimmerman because he had the color jacket that he had. and so tying all those together, and the injuries that george zimmerman had, that's where i came to my conclusion that it was justifiable. >> b37 criticized zimmerman for not going back to his car, what do you have to say about that? >> you know, there's -- i was fine with that. he was -- i think at the time, he was trying to keep an observation and communicate to the police and was not being confrontational. he had the right to be where he was and, you know, i don't
have -- i don't think he had to go back to his car. >> when you heard the verdict, what was going through your mind and how did it make you feel? >> well, what went through my mind was, actually, was that i thought that it was an accurate verdict. and the next thing that went through my mind was how hard i know that the ladies worked to reach that verdict and, you know, that they -- i was proud of them for looking at the evidence and doing what they had to do to come up with the verdict. >> what's your thoughts on al sharpton wanting to get rid of the stand your ground law and people wants to boycott florida now? >> i just don't understand that. you know, it's the first i heard about al sharpton wanting to -- >> stand your grande law. >> stand your ground law. we didn't do anything wrong. the jury did what they were
asked to do. and that was to interpret the law that they were given. and review the evidence and make a decision based on that. they did everything they were asked to do and they're supposed to do and i don't understand that. stand your ground, stand your ground to me, i don't think stand your ground was an issue in this case. it was justifiable use of force. but i don't think that's the same thing. >> are you concerned for your safety? >> yeah. i am. i wanted to show my face today because i wanted the ladies to see my face and see, let them know that i was here for them. but it's just not, i think it's too early yet. so i'm still concerned. >> and concerned for the other jurors? >> absolutely. >> coming up, what is social engineering and does it have any place in a trial? that's next. [ brent ] now steve's looking pretty good so far. [ herbie ] eh, hold on brent, what's this? mmmm, nice car. there's no doubt, that's definitely gonna throw him off. she's seen it too.
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trial. he said that the jury has spoken and that's the way our system works. but some soul searching needs to following the verdict. >> the government erjiurging airliners to look into more. it is the latest in a string of problems for the 787. and reports tonight from across the pond at the security detail for prince william and the dutch ess has left. kate is expected to give birth at any time but box news cannot yet confirm if the future queen is in lay bow. now back to "on the record." what is social engineering? a lawyer for trayvon martin's family telling us social engineering is part of her job description.
and since we are talking about the trial, i took her to task for what she said. the whole point of the jury is that we assign this job to review the facts. we make them sit there, a lot of times they don't want to be there, we then present the evidence and a judge says here's the evidence, instructs them in the law and it's your duty, it's not yours, it's not mine, but it's the jury's duty to weigh them. and all of a sudden, afterwards you say they can't do their job? >> i have a greater duty beyond being an attorney and that's being a social engineer. and when we don't get it right, we have the duty to consciously object. that doesn't mean that we don't believe it will be overturned or that it will. but there are millions of people out that that didn't agree with that decision. >> that is deeply disturbing that they say millions who are out there didn't see it. you know and i know that millions of people who do not
like the verdict, whether it's for it or against another, didn't watch the case, didn't sit in a courtroom, didn't weigh the evidence, didn't listen to the jury instructions that's just noise. that's why we have court systems. it's that both sides have an opportunity to be heard. the social engineering, that's more like social manipulation, but actually justice is presented in the courtroom with the jury deciding and both sides having an opportunity, that's justice and the jury deciding it. >> courtrooms do not always deliver justice as i'm sure you well know, you're aware of the civil rights movement, you're aware of the changes we have to make historically in this nation. >> i bet we put my career up in terms of civil rights and what we have done for poor people, i'll put my career up next to yours any day you want.
i don't criticize juries. >> i haven't been practicing law as long as you have but i would like an opportunity to finish my answers and explain my answers to you. >> i'll let you. >> i think when i'm talking about being a social engineer, george zimmerman would have never been arrested if not for the outcry of black people, white people and christians and muslims who -- i do not believe that the jury got it right and the federal government has every right to bring the claim. that's why we have federal pre-emption. >> and defense lawyer ted williams is back with us, she says that he never would have been arrested but for essentially the mob. perhaps the first prosecutor was right and not the second. your thoughts? >> i listened to that shoot-out when you and jasmine rand and i have done as much research as possible on this social engineering and i think if jasmine rand can walk it back, she would perhaps explain it in this manner. during the 40s and the 50s, a howard university professor by the name of charles hamilton houston coined the phrase social
engineering, it had nothing to do with jurors, it had primarily to do with men like thurgood marshall who -- that's where ms. rand got her words mixed up. the fact about it is, that jury sat there and listened to the evidence. we may not like the jury's decision, but we have to respect the jury's decision. we can't take on and become bullies against the jury. perhaps if you want to go other directions yorks u want to do other things, fine. but social engineering has nothing to do with the jury's verdict. >> i don't think i can say another word to add to what you just said so eloquently, so thank you, ted. >> my pleasure. you'll hear from an expert
defense. he paid a $1500 consulting fee and then $120 an hour. on cross-examination prosecutors trying to turn the tables. >> there are always options in every forced event. it's just a matter of what you as an individual see as being your options. >> but the different didn't use any other options other than pulling out the gun? >> if we go down the path, he did scream for help. he asked for assistance. he continued to try to resist. he was -- the shrinking technique, trying to move around. i don't know what else he could have done based on his abilities. >> dennis joins us. nice to see you, sir. >> thank you for having me. >> now, you were not a fact
witness. you were an expert witness, which means you're allowed to give an opinion. what was the opinion that you gave to the jury? what was it? if you could narrow it down. >> my overall opinion was that based on everything that i had reviewed, i had determined that mr. zimmerman had not violated any statute in the use of force and it was considered to be objectively reasonable. i couldn't say that to the jury so i had to relate the information as best i could. >> now the reason that he would not be allowed to do that is because that is the ultimate issue, that would be the jury's job and not yours. as i understand it you testified that trayvon martin was capable of physically overtaking george zimmerman. was that one of your opinions? >> absolutely. based on everything i had seen
and learned about both vinls, i came to that conclusion. >> would it have been equally true that george zimmerman was capable to overtake va von martin? would the flip side be true? >> when you say physically capable, i have to take into consideration everything that i know. weight wise is the only thing you could use as a comparisocom. i didn't think he would have the physical powers to overtake trayvon martin. >> what is it that you knew about george zimmerman's physical abilities? what did you know specifically? >> the biggest source of information or the greatest source of information was from the jim owner that assisted him in training and developed the programs for him to lose the weight and try to get into other physical type training programs for weight loss and skill development. he was the source where i
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we will keep you poeted. thanks for joining us for the special edition of "on the record." good night. this is a fox news alert. this afternoon the president of the united states once again put himself and his office in the middle of the trayvon martin controversy and the heated race debate. listen. >> when trayvon martin was first shot, i said that this could have been my son. another way of saying that is trayvon martin could have been me 35 years ago. and when you think about why in the african-american community at least there's a lot of pain around what happened here, i think it's important