tv FOX News Sunday With Chris Wallace FOX News August 18, 2013 11:00pm-12:01am PDT
of things. government grossi in freedom yields. that is ever show. begin for watching. we will see you next three. >> john: i'm john roberts in for chris wallace. new allegations rock the nsa. documents leaked why former nsa contractor edward snowden detail thousands of privacy violations by the agency after repeated denials from the white house. >> what you are not reading about is the government actually abusing these programs. >> john: we'll discuss with a key member of the homeland security committee and critic of the nsa kentucky senator rand paul. then, another week of chaos in egypt as the interim government's crackdown on supporters of ousted president mohammed morsi leaves hundreds of people dead. >> our traditional cooperation cannot continue as usual when civilians are
being killed in the streets. thee'll discuss the deteriorating situation in the region and the u.s. response with republican congressman pete king of new york and democratic senator richard blumenthal of connecticut. plus, another delay for the president's healthcare law forces the obama administration to play defense. >> this is no longer a political debate. this is what we call the law. >> the president claims that this law is working the way it's supposed to. but, clearly it's not. >> john: we'll ask our sunday panel about the political fallout. all right here on "fox news sunday." >> hello again from fox news in washington. more tough questions for the nsa after the "the washington post" reported this week that the agency violated privacy rules. thousands of times since 2008. an internal audit obtained from leaker edward snowden reveals that the nation's
most secretive spy agency intercepted phone calls and emails of american citizens repeatedly during that time. and, in some cases did, not report the unauthorized surveillance. now some lawmakers are promising hearings. joining us with reaction is republican senator rand paul of kentucky, a member of the senate homeland security committee and author of government bullies, senator, welcome back to "fox news sunday." good to be with you this morning. >> good morning. >> john: it was just a little more than a week ago that the president insisted to the american people that there was appropriate oversight of the nsa surveillance program and that there was no talk of abuses. let's play what the president said. >> what happen you are not reading about is the government actually abusing these programs and listening in on people's phone calls or inappropriately reading people's emails. what you're hearing about is the prospect that these could be abused. >> john: senator paul, what
do you make of that statement now that this new information has come to light? >> you know, i think the president fundamentally misunderstands the constitutional separation of powers because the checks and balances are supposed to come from independent branches of government. so he thinks that if he gets some lawyers together from the nsa, and they do a power point presentation and tell him everything is okay, that the nsa can police themselves. but one of the fundamental things that our founders put in place was they wanted to separate police power from the judiciary power. so they didn't want police to write warrants. the nsa are a type of police. they wanted the judiciary, an independent, open judiciary responsive to the people with open we did bait in public. i think the constitutionality of these programs need to be questioned and there needs to be a supreme court decision that looks at whether or not what they are doing is constitutional or not. >> one of the most striking revelations of this disclosure is that the foreign intelligence surveillance court does not
have jurisdiction to it pursue investigations into compliance. does that need to change? >> well, there is a couple of problems. one, they may not have jurisdiction, but, two, they are only hearing one side of this. so, if you everywhere to go sit down in a room and the nsa tells you why they are doing all these things correctly, you have no means of challenging that. you have no means of alternative information. and without this snowden leak, in fact, we he wouldn't even know of this internal audit without the snowden leak, we wouldn't have known that james clapper lied to us, lied to the senate, and said oh, that we were not collecting any data on americans and it turns out, he yes, they are collecting billions of pieces of data on american cell phones every day. >> john: according to this audit, a lot of these violations were apatiently unintentional. but the nsa chose not to report some of these violations. as it has a responsibility to. does that need to change?
>> well, see, they chose not to report the program period, they said they weren't looking at any american data or any phone calls and it turns out they are looking at billions of phone calls every day. so i i think the whole program needs to be reviewed. but it can't be an internal audit. there is sort of a similarity between this scandal and all the other scandals. the president thinks the irs can police themselves as well. and that they will do an internal audit. he thought the state department could do an internal audit also. but the thing is, nobody ever was fired from the state department. no one has been fired from the irs. the director of national intelligence lied to the senate. and i think greatly damaged the credibility of our american intelligence community and nothing has happened. there are no repercussions over than he says well, we had a power point presentation. when we some lawyers come together who worked for the nsa. the only way to find justice is is you have to hear both sides, so there really needs to be a discussion from people who are a little bit more skeptical of the nsa in an open court. i think before the supreme
court on this program. >> john: when congress comes back to capitol hill in a couple of weeks. do you believe there needs to be congressional hearings into all of this? >> yes. and i think legislation could help. the hard part is that we only hear one side also. the nsa comes and they tell us our side and tell us their side. tell us how they foiled all these plots. but it turns out when there is a discussion back and forth, we really discover that they did not uniquely use this american surveillance program to get anyone. i think they got most of the terrorists or stopped most of the terrorists if not all of the plots by good old fashioned police work and getting warrants and getting wiretaps on people who they were suspicious of whom they asked a judge about. i'm not against that i'm all for surveillance of spies. i'm just not for this gross bulk gathering of data on all americans. >> john: in fact, you are one of the most strident
critics of the program. with congressional hearings, with more congressional oversight into that program, with more duty to report compliance and other aspects of it, would you be comfortable enough with it to let it go ahead? >> you know, i think it would be better with more oversight, but there is some things that they're doing that i fundamentally think are unconstitutional. our founding fathers when they wrote the fourth amendment they said a single warrant goes towards a specific individual and what you want to look for. and you ask a judge and you say john smith, we think is doing this. we have probable cause to think that he is involved with a crime. and you get a warrant. the constitution doesn't allow for a single warrant to get a billion phone records. you know, they have a warrant that says we want all of verizon's phone calls. all of at and t's phone calls, all of et cetera, et cetera. they basically i believe probably are looking at all the cell phone calls in america every day. also, i don't think it's good police work. i think we get overwhelmed
with data. we have so much data that he we don't notice when the -- goes back to check that, his name is misspelled and we don't know he has gone back. we need more people doing specific intelligence data on people who we have suspicion of rather than doing it on suspicion list severance of all american phone calls. >> john: let me switch gears and talk to you about obama care because that is going to be a big topic of discussion when congress comes back in a couple of weeks. you support the defunding of obama care but you recently acknowledged you don't believe it will happen and get through the senate. your only leave then lever is to defund obama care. that would shut down the government which you have stated publicly you don't think is a good idea. what do you really have left here, senator? >> well, i don't think shutting down the government is a good idea. but i do think that we were elected, conservatives were elected to try to stop this overreach, this government
takeover of healthcare. it's not going to be good for the american public. i think insurance premium also rise. i think the people they want to help, precisely the working class and the poor who don't have insurance. i think still won't have insurance. and they can have a penalty. so what i would say is people want us to stand up and fight. i'm willing to stand up and fight. we should use the leverage of controlling 1/3 of the government. we don't control all of the government. but republicans control the house of representatives. they should stand up, use that power to, at the very least, make this lawless bad, delay it, do something we can to protect the american public from this law. or, if we do nothing, we are just saying to the president, hey, you get your way, but that's not really what the government is about. when the government is divided, we should use the leverage of controlling at least part of government to try to get the law more to our liking. >> you have talked about trying to pass a bill to defund obama care in the house. it wouldn't pass the senate. and you would try to come
up with some sort of compromise in conference that might delay implementation of the individual mandate. plenty of bills gone to conference that have not worked out in the end. there is no compromise so the law is enacted as it is. do you think that's going to happen in this case? >> you know, i don't know. i think there is always a great desire not to shut the government down. and you use that desire to try to get a compromise. and i think ultimately you could in conference committee either make the lawless bad or delay the individual mandate or delay the whole thing. even the president is very concerned about this law because is he delaying the individual-00 employer mandate because he is concerned maybe about what it will happen in the elections when it is seen that insurance premiums go up and actually, there are more problems than there are benefits. >> you have said, that you would not vote for a continuing resolution in the senate if it includes funding for obama care. but, even if you don't vote for it, it will likely pass the senate. if your colleagues in the house did exactly the same thing as you suggest you
would, that would shut down the government because the resolution wouldn't pass, which might lead some people to wonder if you are trying to have it both ways, well, the house has to have it one way. >> well, i think what would happen is, if the house voted to defund obama care, it would come to the senate, i think the senate would approve obama care funding, it would go to conference committee, and then i think a compromise would be achieved, it's only achieved if the house stands up, uses and asserts their belief that obama care is a bad law and will hurt people and if they stand up and are strong, then i think the strength of that leverage would be used to achieve a compromise. but, if we announce defeat in advance as some had, then that destroys the effort that we are trying to do. there are many conservatives like myself standing up and saying, look, obama care is going to be a disaster for the country and as i travel around kentucky, and around the country, people come up to me and they say stand firm, stand up, try to stop
this monstrosity because it's going to be bad for the country. >> john: senate majority leader harry reid was recently asked at a nevada public broadcasting program if the ultimate goal of obama care was to move to a single pair system. he responded according to forbes magazine, yes, he yes, absolutely yes. if the senate majority leader tried to move obama care to a single pair system, what would your response be? >> well, you know, i think it's amazing sometimes when politicians are forth right. is he has admitted now that that is their goal. people have to think about it, the goal of single pair, that may well mean that everybody in the country gets medicaid, and if you are excited about going on medicaid, then you need to vote with harry reid and with the president, but i think it's a bad idea. 85% of us had health insurance. we should have tried to fix the system for the 15% who didn't. instead of destroying it for everybody in the country who actually had good health insurance. our main concern was the price rising and the president did nothing about
prices rising. he has made insurance more expensive because of his mandates and making the insurance cover more items. >> john: on egypt, senator paul, you issued a statement the other day after the carnage of wednesday, calling on the president to end foreign assistance to egypt. but that relationship does a number of things. ten sures compliance with the camp david accords. it allows american military overflights without prior notification it moves u.s. woreships at the front of the line sue he see canal. if you were to remove that military assistance. could you potentially damage a relationship that the united states needs to have with very important ally in the middle east? >> well, the law is what the law is. and the president is currently in defiance of the law. the law is very explicit. when there is a military takeover, our aid must end. not that it might end or that he can said around for months deciding whether he is going to end. it must end. >> john: there are ways to avoid that which the
president is pursuing now. would ending military aid to egypt be a pruned thing to do? >> yes. because the thing is i don't think we are buying any love of the egyptian people when they see an american tank on the street, when june is is shot down or rolled over by a tank that was purchased with american money, do you think that buys any friendship with the egyptian people? what happens if foreign aid is basically foreign aid to egypt is more likely to buy a la vish chateau for a dictator or general in paris than it is to buy bread for people in cairo. we are not winning the hearts and minds of those in egypt. all they do is see our aid as something that goes to the people that are -- the dictators and despots that have been taking it away their rights for generations. they also see it stolen. mubarak stole it by the billions and he had fancy homes all around the world with our money. it has to end. we don't have it. and it's counter productive. and it shows nothing but american weakness to
continue it. those who want to continue this aid, they say we are projecting american power. he they are projecting exactly the opposite. they are projecting american weakness because it shows that we are so weak that we will not even adhere to our own conditions on this aid. and it's not modulating behavior because the egyptians just keep doing the same thing and when they roll tanks over protesters, that's not something i think most americans would support. >> john: time is growing short, senator, we just have a few seconds left. i would like to look at politics for a second there has been a very public spat between your camp and the chris christie camp which you said earlier this week you would like to try diffuse maybe over a beer. but it continues because, after governor christie's statements about the republican party should be overng to win elections, ideology, one of your senior advisors said if i translate governor christie correctly we shouldn't be the party of ideas, we shouldn't care what we stand for or even if we stand for anything. we reject that idea. content free so-called pragmatism is the problem
and not the solution. then your father, congressman ron paul came out and said christie offers nothing. do you agree with your father? >> what i would say is the party is big enough for both of us. it's big enough for a the love different republicans. in fact, we don't need to, this all started with him saying we don't have room for libertarian republicans. that's how we grow our party. libertarian republicans care about the right to privacy. we care about a more moderate and less aggressive foreign policy. i think that will bring new people to our party. look, the party in the northeast is shrinking. almost down to nothing. they need to be looking to people with new and different ideas who will attract the youth. independent and even democrats to our party. so, saying there is no room for us was a big mistake on their part. i will continue to say we grow the party by embracing some of these issues that have to do with individual freedom. and also the right to privacy.
>> john: but, again, do you agree with your father when he says governor christie offers nothing? >> what i would say is that there is room for people who believe in bigger government in our party. and i think that, you know, some of the things that he seems to have promoted make us believe that well, he thinks that there is a lot more spending that could go on. i think that national defense is a priority for our country and the only way we have enough money for national defense is actually to be very, very frugal with other spending. that is is a valid disagreement we have. >> john: senator rand paul of kentucky. good to talk to you this morning. thanks so much for joining us. >> thank you. >> john: with the continuing turmoil in egypt. a lot of eyes are on the u.s. and its response. we talk about what the u.s. should do with two key lawmakers coming up next.
while when we want to continue our relationship with egypt cannot continue as usual when civilians are being killed in the streets and rights being rolled back. as a result we notified the egyptian government that we're canceling our bi annual joint military exercise that was scheduled for next month. >> john: president obama walking a type line in his response credit siding the voyeuring violence in egypt. now egyptian authorities say they are considering whether to ban the muslim brotherhood, the group that came to power a year ago when ousted government took. he is in our middle east newsroom for us today.
good afternoon, leland. >> good afternoon, john. the muslim brotherhood week of rage has really turned into armed insurrection day three tanks and armored personnel carriers of the egyptian army surrounded the supreme court there as they had intelligence that muslim brotherhood gunmen were headed there. oftentimes they tried not only to protest but also take over these government buildings. yesterday, gunmen used the main mosques in cairo to fire out not only at the crowd but also at the army down below. the police had to fight their way in there where muslim brotherhood supporters had taken refuge after attacking a police station. clear that mosque out. as the police came out they were greeted by cheers from the surrounding groups there the military is now thinking of outlawing the muslim brotherhood and already begun mass -- leadership including this guy mohammed al-zawahiri. he is the leader of al qaeda's brother also jihadist in egypt who is very well known. today on the streets of egypt though there has been
a little bit of a return to normalcy. banks are open and the stock market is open. it's important to note, john, despite the blood shed we have seen inside egypt the army still has widespread popular support for this crackdown of the muslim brotherhood that is proving to be much more of a violent military than a peaceful militant group back to you. >> john: a lot of support from the neighbors in the region as well. joiption us to talk more about this republican congressman peter king of new york. democratic senator richard blumenthal of connecticut who sits on the senate armed services committee. gentlemen, welcome to both of you. let me start off this segment if i could by going back to the president on march that's vineyard a new little reaction to wednesday's blood shed. >> we don't take sides with any particular party or political figure. i know it's tempting inside of egypt to blame the united states or the west or some other outside actor for what's gone wrong. we have been blamed by
supporters of morsey. we he have been blamed by the other side as if we are supporters of morsey. john senator blumenthal the president in trying to walk a fine line and neutral line appears to have alienated both sides. what's your opinion of how he has handled this crisis? >> i agree with the president that the people of egypt have to decide their own future and this blood shed. the violence in the streets has to stop. the practical reality is that most of the military aid for this fiscal year, 2013, has already been obligated and delivered. in fact, all of it except for about four f-16s and maybe some ehud olmerts. so -- hospitals. helicopters. specific steps towards the rule of law and return to democracy, respect for minorities and women. and a more inclusive
political process including the recess of prisoners so that the aid is released in blocks that are conditioned on those steps. and i hope the president will support that approach, which is contained in the amendment offered by senators leahy and gram to the appropriation subcommittee bill that will come to the floor. >> john: congressman king, what are your thoughts on that? should the president as senators graham, mccain and rand paul suggested cut off all aid or is -- you are calling in senator blumenthal suggests make it conditional. >> we certainly shouldn't cut off all aid. there is no good guys here. but of the two, there is more opportunity to protect american interests if we work with the military. and continue our relationship with with the military. we have to have access to the suez canal. al qaeda should not be able to gain a foot hold. i don't think that can be done with the muslim brotherhood. it possibly can be done with the military. we should maintain our relationship with the military.
i would be reluctant to be cutting off aid. obviously we should use as a bargaining wedge. we should lean on the military to the extent we he can i would not want to undercut them and allow the muslim brotherhood to come back. they have shown they're not capable of democracy. i don't know if our immediate goal should be democracy per se. respect for minorities if that can be done. after what we saw in the last two years after the arab spring and chaos that ensued i don't know at this moment in time a democracy is actually in store for egypt. they should work toward democracy with a stable government with respect for human rights to the extent we kin influence that. >> john: do you agree with that senator blumenthal that the democracy is not in the cards at least for egypt? >> well, democracy is in the eye of the beholder as we know. our democracy is unique in the world. we're the greatest nation in the history of the world because we have a unique respect for the rights of minorities and individuals. every individual. so we can't impose our own vision of democracy on a
country like egypt. i do agree our strategic interest merit strong respect, access to airspace over egypt, as well as the suez canal. the insistence and we should make it even stronger that the sinai be policed effectively to end human trafficking and smuggling of arms. and, of course, maybe as important as anything else, is closer consultation with some of our allies in the region. the gulf states as well as israel on what our approach to egypt going forward should be. and i think we'll find that aid, that we may withhold is compensated by aid that the gulf states may provide even exceeding the amount of aid. i disagree with senator paul on eliminating aid. canceling it entirely and agree with congressman king. i do, by the way, agree with senator paul that the fisa court needs to hear both sides that we have to have a special advocate.
i'm very pleased that he has endorsed the concept. in fact, the specific blueprint that i have offered for a special advocate in the fisa courts which also the president seemed to endorse in his statement last week. >> john: since you bring it up. let me switch gears and go the to latest revelations about the nsa. keith alexander was in las vegas at the end of last month. again, he gave assurances that the nsa is complying with the law and that there are appropriate checks and balances. here is what he said. >> i think it's important to understand the strict oversight that goes in on these programs. because the assumption is that people are out there just wheeling and dealing. and nothing could be further from the truth. we have tremendous oversight and compliance in these programs. >> john: congressman king you are a staunch defender of the nsa and its programs. you quality people who work there quote patriots but would also appear very clear that mistakes are being made and in many
cases they are not, as they should be, reporting those mistakes. >> john, i totally disagree with that and i fully disagree with what senator rand paul said. that was just a grab bag of misinformation distortion coming from him. the fact is, john, look at this. take rand paul's own numbers. he said there is billions of phone calls being collected. that's not really true. assume he something right for once. billions of phone calls being collected. you just appose that with 2800 violations which were self-reported by the nsa which do not violate anyone's rights. you are talking about 1900 of them being foreigners. when they came to the u.s. because the foreign mobile phone that wasn't immediately transferred over the way it's supposed to be. no rights violated with that the others wreckage kept accident. self-reported by the nsa. to me a scandal is when a government agency is somehow using information to hurt people and go after them. whatever mistakes were made were inadvertent. 99.9% batting average, that's better than most media people do.
most politicians do. and i have a tremendous respect for general alexander and the nsa and his whole tone of snooping and spying that we use. i think it's horrible. it's really a distortion and a smear and a slander of good patriotic americans. >> john: hang on for a second here. you said everything was self-reported by the nsa. the documents that were leaked at the end of last week. clearly show that many of these violations were not appropriately reported. at least not to the foreign intelligence surveillance court whose members also complained that they do not have the power to initiate investigations into noncompliance. so, is there a problem here? >> no, there is not a problem. the fact is it worked. it you have 99.99% compliance. and you have self-reporting errors, these came from an internal report which then becomes part of an overall ig report. so i'm on the intelligence committee. i am satisfied that we told what the nsa is doing. john, who else in government has a 99.99%. >> john: did you know what else was reported at the end of the week? >> it was all available.
there is nothing there that bothers me. quite frankly, that shows the system worked. and it works, we should be proud of it. >> john: senator blumenthal, anything that report, anything in the reports that came to light at the end of the week that bother you? >> there is a lot that bothers me. and i share congressman king's respect for the brave and dedicated men and women who do our intelligence and national security work. the problem and there is a real problem, is with the system, it is a black box, the fisa court, the foreign intelligence surveillance court is a secret tribunal issuing secret opinions making secret law and' a lot of it completely unavailable to members even of the foreign intelligence committee. so, i believe there need to be changes in the fisa court so that it can better uncover and scrutinize and oversee potential abuses. and i would establish a special advocate who would be responsible in effect for representing the
constitution. no delay or lack of security because there would be preclearance and warrants would be issued much as they're now as rapidly as presently goes on. but, also, a change in the meth of selecting the court to represent greater diversity and greater transparency in the precipitations to the extent possible. so, i think we are at a critical juncture, a turning point. because there needs to be continued surveillance and intelligence gathering. but the trust and credibility, the system is gravely at risk and that's why we need these transparency and accountability reforms. >> john: congressman king it's clear this is going to be a big topic of discussion when congress returns. nancy pelosi said in response to the disclosure at the end of the week, quote, press reports that the national security agency broke privacy rules, thousands of times a year. and reportedly sought to shield required disclosure or privacy violations are
are extremely disturbing. do you think that she is just way off in left field here? >> i think she is wrong. i wish she looked into it more carefully. this raise as larger issue where it's up to the president to come forward and defend it i'm out here, mike rogers, a number of us are defending a program. this is the president's program. the president of the united states much more aggressive in defending and should be out there. that's why a the love these distortions people like rand paul are able to talk about are able to take hold. the president has been relatively silent. i think he has spoken twice on the nsa. once 10 days ago. he should be out there addressing the nation on this going into detail. if there have to be reforms, fine, let's address them. in an intelligent way. i fully agree with his tone and attitude. and i think that's an area we can discuss. what bothers me, john, is the people snooping and spying and lacking corrupt operation going on here. if there are are mistakes, let's try mistake them. if we can do some things within the co giving away secret
information, let's have an intelligent debate on that. we are not getting it from people like rand paul. >> john: congressman king have you declared your desire to run for president in 2016. if successful maybe you have a chance as president to defend the nsa program. congressman king, senator blumenthal, thank you very much for joining us. >> thank you, senator. >> thank you. >> john: next more on this week's violations that the agency. the agency chalks is it up to mistakes. what happens in the super spy agency gets sloppy? our sunday panel joins us next. with the spark miles card from capital one, bjorn earns unlimited rewas for his small business take theseags to room 12 please. [ garth ] bjors small busiss earns double miles on every purchase every day. produce delivery. [ bjorn ] just put it on my spark card. [ garth why settle for less? ahh, oh! [ garth ] great businesses deserve limited reward here's your wake up call. [ male announcer ] get the spark business card from capital one and earn unlimited rewards.
a general impression i think has taken hold not only in the american public but also around the world that somehow we are out there wily nilly just sucking in information on everybody and doing what we please with it now, that's not the case. >> john: president obama last week defending the government against accusation is of domestic spying saying the programs operated in a way that prevent abuse. new revelations this week from "the washington post seem to contradict the president and others' claims of oversight. time now for our sunday group. nina easton of "fortune magazine" is with us today. former democratic congressman dennis kucinich. kimberly strassel of the "wall street journal" and evan bayh. mistakes are a part of life. this is an awful lot of mistakes. >> i mean, not necessarily in context. i think as congressman king just said of the overall
number of calls that are being put into a database somewhere and the amount of work that the nsa is actually doing the number one question here the only question is there any evidence that the government is aboozing its power to spy on americans and despite all of the conversation that we have had over the last couple of months we still do not have any evidence of that. >> john: do you believe that? >> john, any time our privacy is at stake. americans have to take that seriously. and some changes do need to be made. there needs to be advocate for privacy and having served on the intelligence committee for 10 years can i tell threw ha do need to be more resources so the independent branches of government including the courts can police this thing. but as kimberly was just saying 80% of the violations were either technical in nature or involve typographical errors. and 100% of them were inadvertent. the fact that the agency is self-reporting and wants to comply should give us some comfort. and there is not a vast conspiracy out there where this are intentionally listening in on our
conversations. >> john: self-reporting internal audit. congressman kucinich you know and you came out very strongly on this topic the other day that a lot of these violations were not appropriately reported to the foreign intelligence surveillance court and other entities that are supposed to oversee. >> congress largely kept in the dark. the foreign intelligence surveillance court kept in the dark. apparently the president isn't aware. and so when you have are the fourth amendment at stake here. and by reference the first amendment, we have an obligation here. it appears that the nsa has gone rogue and we have to insist that they be reigned in in order to protect the privacy of americans, stop this massive intrusion and emails and fell phone calls and go back to having a country that works on fourth amendment, right to be protected against unreasonable search and seizure, go and get a warrant. no massive we're going to get the whole hay stack to find a needle.
>> going rogue. >> i don't think this is nsa gone rogue. bureaucratic agency making mistakes which is troubling. this is a great conversation to have. we should be having more oversight in this agency. dianne feinstein is saying we need more information and we need more oversight. that's great. but your right to privacy, our right to privacy also needs to be balanced against my right and your right to be protected against a terrorist attack. and i think we have got enough information now. these a good degat to be had. enough information now. a lot of it classified, true. to know what does work to prevent an attack? and i think one of the important things that senator paul does bring up is that is there so much nfings that we're losing that sort of gum shoe like really good information on the ground intelligence that does stop terrorist attacks. >> john: how do you sift through it all? >> to push back a little bit here though. what are we talking about? we want a program that does its job effectively and also safeguards rights. and the vogue term now is public advocate or the
court needs more oversight oversight in general. you know, a lot of really smart people have looked at this and pointed out that the most effective way to make sure that the executive branch that buts these things into place actually does its job and actually makes sure this program is to know that it itself is politically responsible when things go wrong and it doesn't work. one of the problems with putting an advocate in or having the responsibility. you are layering on and layering on all the people who are involved in this to the point where it all goes badly everyone gets to point their fingers sand say oh now we need a commission to point out what went wrong and why it isn't working. >> some of these things are correctable. typographical errors entering the wrong area code for a phone number. surely we can do more than that 70% of them involve a foreign cell phone brought by someone into the united states and apparently the system isn't able to differentiate that the technicians need to work on that. but i think it's healthy that dennis and senator paul are focusing on this. any time our privacy is at stake, that's important.
but i ultimately agree with kimberly, you don't want to he throw the baby out with the bath water. having been on the committee. there really weren't enough resources to independently oversee this. having the capacity to do that is important. make sure the court can do its job is important. whether you call them an advocate or something else, we don't need more bureaucracy but we do need someone in there standing up for the privacy rights of americans to make surety appropriate balance is struck. >> look, i would like to say this and i will say it again i voted against the patriot act because i read it most members of congress did not. they had 12 hours of hearings. and then at the end they brought in -- they slond a bill swapped the bill out and had draconian powers for government to reach into people's private lives. if we don't take a stand for privacy here. then we have let the nsa redefine who we are americans. that is not acceptable. >> john: there is an interesting split in the debate here. one side no big deal and other side people like congressman kucinich. >> i didn't think anyone is say nothing big deal. >> congressman king said no
big deal. >> everybody agrees that privacy rights are important and that this is a good debate to be had. >> but if a soft ware mistake scoops up the phone records of 3,000 people in washington, d.c. >> and if nothing happens from that. >> that's something to be concerned about. >> what evidence is there of any abuse? >> john, 1 purex% as far as we know, 100% of the mistakes were inadvertent. these are the mistakes, correct as many as possible. it's not the government intentionally out there recording our conversations. >> i just really resist when the term scandal and agency gone rogue is applied to this. this is a program the bones of this program are needed. i think, and we need to make sure that there is oversight of that program. so it's not. >> quick last word? >> cia? hello. we have a cia. what's the nsa really about? they he have overreached into people's price lives and there audited to be consequences for that. >> panel, we have got to take a break here, when we
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another delay for obama care 2015. murders continue to mount for the law. will the republicans be able to take advantage. back with the panel. the republicans plan is to try to defund this thing and wrap that around a continuing resolution at the end of next month. neon that do you think they have any chance of doing that? >> they don't. because they control one chamber, they control the house. they don't control the senate. and they don't control the white house. it's a mistake to pick a
fight like that that you can't win. what's going to happen when you threaten to shut down the government? it's gonna redowned to the detriment of the republican party. they are going to get blamed. if you are looking -- i think it's a strategic mistakes on the part of republicans that want to do that. >> john: senator paul said earlier he doesn't believe in shutting down the government. but he would like to individual mandate delayed. congressman kucinich is it fundamentally unfire employer mandate. criteria of nsht. and say to people decouple a plane who ho is on it what we have is a situation where there are tens of millions of americans without adequate healthcare coverage. we have a for profit system where the insurance companies keep raising the rates. when it's all said and done the insurance companies are winning. more profits. take await ability to be able to cap out-of-pocket
expenses. already americans going broke with the cost of healthcare. so, you know, this thing is a mess. bill. >> john: is it falling apart piece by piece. >> you have to look at. so things they have delayed in terms of the employer mandate and out of the pocket limits. are they doing that in part because they realize what this is going to do to insurance premiums? i mean, this is the other piece of this is that we are likely to see an explosion in the fall. and then, public outrage of this is going to be huge. this alongside of the fact that they have got -- they are cure curiously trying to sign people up for. this i don't see how it's going to work. do you know how many people don't sign up at the moment for medicaid which is also basically free healthcare for people at a certain healthcare level. it's there, it's available to them. like one in four people eligible don't sign up. why would they sign up for obama care. >> there is also another piece of this that's come to light. senator harry reid did an interview pbs station in nevada where the person was acting about is the ultimate care of obama care to move it to a single pair system? this is what he said.
>> what we have done here with the obama care is step in the right direction but we are far from having something that's going to work for. >> so eventually you think will work beyond the insurance. >> yes, absolutely, yes. >> absolutely work beyond insurance. is that the ultimate goal here? >> well, like all of us in public life, john, who give lots and lots of interviews. the leader occasionally misspeaks.. this may have been one of those occasions. >> maybe. >> the important thing is deal with the law on the books now. it's a large, complex piece of legislation. nobody thought it would be perfect from the get-go. changes have to be made. the administration showing a pragmatic streak here. adjusting, delaying things that aren't ready to go. i think the most important thing in the american people's minds is what can we do to get the costs down? if we delay the individual mandate which may be where this is headed, that may help in the short run. you have to look at lifetime caps, it's hard to do one without the other. i think we're probably going to be a year or two before we know
how it plays out. one final thing i'd like to say. the kaiser foundation did a study indicating if you revealed the whole thing, costs go up $1,000 to $8,000 for an individual or small group policy. that will var fri state to state. >> we promised our viewers politics. rolling out new tools to try to match the democrats in nair big data collection. they got handed their lunch on that front in 2012. the democrats have had time to move ahead from that. does the rnc have a chance to beat the democrats at their own game? >> there's the word orca which we remember the day of the election. yes, i think that the democrats outstrip republicans in 2012 on all the get out the vote effort, social media and so forth and in fairness, the republican ticket has the time to build that kind of infrastructure. they were in power, able to do that. i think that's that -- the other thing about the rnc meeting that
i think we're seeing is that there is going to be this interesting split with republican party coming up with the more libertarian wing has a more -- and tea party wing clearly will have a very strong voice next rounds, yes. >> what do you make of the spat between governor christie and governor paul? >> i think -- there's a real debate over who we are as a country. should we be intervening? should we be spying? should we be invading privacy? >> there's a lot of mudslinging. >> you know what, though, politics -- >> when you look at the potential field, kimberly, 2016 candidates, rubio, ryan, paul, christie, ayotte, jeb bush, martinez, and then on the democratic side hillary. the fact that the republican field is so broad, is that a good thing or bad thing? >> what you'd like to think is this would be as congressman kucinich said, a hopeful thing and you could have positive debates on really strong policy
issues and this could be a race to the top rather than a race to the bottom. the question is going to be whether or not this is all mudslinging or whether it gets back down to something -- >> senator, about 20 seconds. >> can anybody beat hillary? >> short answer, no. particularly in the right wing of the republican party draws them out of the mainstream. you can't offend women, hispanics and young people and win elections. >> thanks for joining us on the panel. remember our discussion continues every sunday on panel plus. we've got a lot to talk about this morning. you can find it on our website at fox news sunday.com. make sure to follow us on twitter at fox news sunday. up next, our power player of the weaken couraging all of us to slow down through poetry.
it is common practice in washington for people to use words to score a point, but in february we found a woman who uses words to reach out and to heal. here's chris wallace with his power player of the week. >> to comfort us when we have losses, to comfort celebrate with us our joys and triumphs, but also to help us see things differently than we do in our everyday lives. >> natasha is talking about poetry. and the role she says it
continues to play. not as accessible as pros. not as immediate as video images. but conveying something important, something deeper. >> i now use ink to keep record. >> sometimes our everyday speech has a way of saying, this is me and that's you and we're different. i think poetry has a way of saying, this is my experience and you can share in it with me. >> truth be told, i do not want to forget anything of my former life. >> it's the nation's poet lawyer yacht working out of the library of congress, her job this year is to spread her love of poetry. >> i actually get inspired. it helps me to write poems to be here. >> she describes her role as a cheerleader. >> in a former life was a cheerleader. it seemed a natural way to be excited about something, being passionate about something that means a lot to me that i'd like to convey to other. >> her father is white, her mother black.
they had to leave mississippi in the '60s to get married. >> how did it affect you, the idea that your parents' marriage was a crime? >> well, i think that it created in me a sense of psychological exile. >> and when she was 19, her mother was murdered by her former stepfather. >> that's the moment where i really tried in the language of poetry to make sense of that loss. >> here the dead stand up in stone. white marble on confederate avenue. i stand on ground once hallowed by a web of -- >> one of the themes of her work is memory. what gets left out of the nation's public record. she won a pulitzer prize in 2007 for native guard. about a forgotten black union regiment that fought in the civil war. >> we know it is our duty now to keep white men as prisoners. rebel soldiers. would-be masters. >> she wrote that poem in the
library's reading room in seat 170. sometimes to rest her eyes, she would look up at a pillar marked poetry. >> now when i do it, i can't see the word poetry so clearly. but i have faith that it's there. >> so she will continue to cheer lead. for an art form that forces you to slow down and contemplate in a world that doesn't always value that. >> trying to find a way to say what seems to necessary to be said but so difficult also, to someone that i can speak intimately to across time and space on the page. that is thrilling to me. >> this summer the library of congress appointed her to a second term as poet lawyer yacht. but her time in washington is coming to an end. she's going to spend her second term teaching and touring the country to see how poetry lives in other communities. that's it for today. have a great week. thanks for joining us. we'll see you again next fox
news sunday. fox news sunday is a presentation of boston for the ufc fight night. ston for the >> tonight on huckabee, another delay in the affordable care act. we delay things and why not delay it permanently and come up with a role solution. >> unaffordable and unpopular, but is obama care unstoppable. >> what you are not reading about is the government actually abusing these programs. and listening in on people's phone calls and inappropriately reading e-mails. >> the new report said that the nsa broke the privacy rules and can anything be done to stop the abuse of pour in washington? plus political