tv The Kelly File FOX News November 27, 2015 9:00pm-10:01pm PST
spin stops here because we are definitely that. we'll see you a bit later on. developing tonight we have new details in a case thatça rocked the country. as we get you insidee7 and fate as a young woman finds a new life coming face-to-face with a killer on a rampage. welcome to our special everyone the ashley$k this fap a new film hit theaters manhunt for brian nichne%q on trail for çt÷ smefr's deputy steal her gun.
he would kill two more people beforeñu] leaving that court house2jeupa@f and two more on theekbc run. then he crossed paths witháó> ashley smitòj a young woman, mother struggling with demons of drug siu3ñaddiction. for seven hours he held her hostage in her apartment,an ordeal that would change their lives forever.#!0 tonight ashley sits downm$ "the kelly file" to describe what unfolded thatg3ñ(mb @jnight. how choices she made may have saved1f$a her life and why she thinks nichols chose to end the manhunt the way he did. and we'll hear fromc' geraldo riviera, who was in tkk2 miht8 of thee
>> reporter:÷u on trial forqd ex-girlfriend butoík his current girlfriend gave fwoirj their son. he feared he'd been convicted and never see his son in what experts believe motivated him to launch one of the most:qc[ju)áujójú attacks ]wr"ñ georgia eác5history. becausey be a high risk inmate hé%o judge requested extra security escort him to his court appearance. that was either ignored or female sheriff's deputy. while changing from prison garb assaulted and severely beat theq?hp deputy, knocking her unco and grabbing her gun. nich); then stormed the courtroom shooting and killing the judge who requested given 7ycurity and a
reporter was also shot and killed.#x andxrx he managed to make his way across twonmlb parking garages and through a citywide drag net. he car jacked several vehicles including a truck be3ñu(r'g to a fraeth who he also shot and killed. >> this is the kind of person that does not need to run the streets this, is someone who should be in police t,gjcustody. >> armed, dangerous and on the run, a gunman shot a courtroom.ft9 the state of georgia on alert, at)sb6ñ 2:00qc in t÷iujj 26-year-old singlep topm her apartment complex. ashley smith recallsxb1t seeing a man behind the wheel of a truck ne5 v the n"iuñentrance to her u/ h ìc% apartment. she unlockedd p@6;g0xemçtñ her door, brianf nichols tied her up.
she was thinking she'd be raped or killed ands( t that time she thought she brought it upon $ herself.n% ásráh was atq+ uj long drug addict, her husband killed bymfsñ a drunk dealer she'd be4-ht kicked out ofjnher home institutionalizedb#íh and lost custody of sheó?ñ! remembers telling nichols she had a stash of methamphetamine in her bedroom. he untied her. she gave him the4yñ drug and she said he snorted line after ñi=oline. smith says the two men talked all nightn >> i can't stop. if i treat him like a human being not like someone that just[tn killed someone, maybe he'll let me go. >> nearly a day later, the manhunt was nationwide. the media coverage u there were ÷ very few leads tox@c
follow. and the nation was baffled how the inmate was able toíwh,q=m %u dúzñ attack a court house and then run away. but ashley smith and the most wantedhiñ man in the÷9z countryl[-÷ continued talking and smith recalls cooking pancakes asking if she could read him part of a book she'd been given. pastor rick warren "the purpose>¿q driven )+drlife" first she says he dismissed it sherìc% god gave you, including the line quote, what you are is god's gift to you, what you do withvz god. >> i started tofúh9read the first paragraph of it. after i/ych read it he said stop. will you read it again.[ rkze2fx i said azm es. b thought his was.w
and she said she had to leave to see her daughter. he let her [ she called 911. she got tew through. >> the victim advised me that he is in the apartment at this time. there are threevix weapons under the bed. she's advising he's wanting toóñ turn himself in.bglz officers now cordoned off the apartment complex with guns drawn. we'vekll÷m a%9ko sniper team. >> authorities surrounded the apartment. nicholsp&yv surrendered peacefully. >> we did expect a fight, that or suicide. none of thosea93ñ things occurred. we never counted on ashley smit -< we never took that into consideration. ashley with your calm demeanor and handling of the situation,4um with your cool headed reasoning you were able to overcome a very serious situation. we want to say thank you. >> it's8z:g the natural conclusion
of every story but my role was very small in the grand scheme 7o of thingsg%ú&=v9"tq u$e r.@iá j and law enforcementpk5-p officials who gave their lives and those who +t (ñ b. risked their lives to bring this to an end. >> brian nichols is serving multiple life sentence was outcno ÷ parole. he called ashley smith an55f; angel sent fromd]o god but he has never reached out tokvc% her. >> incredible. >> trace,n as trace just mentioned ashley e:áx5=j5uárj apartment was only 15 miles6dr from the court house,[ jí brian nichols could have killed her, as he did four others that day but none of those things happened and what unfolded has since been described by some as a c:homiracle. here now ashley smith. >> take us back to that day in march, 2005. i remember covering the story on fox news as a young reporter at
the time. you saw news reports of what brian nichols, in court beingh.÷"&x accused of rape not z> i didn't see very much. just a mug shot. to be honest i wasn'távé paying a dkwtuu of !ú$zattention. you know i lookg3úé back on it today an realized @why. it was just the powernád"@qç of god protecting me from what he knew i was going to go through. but whatx i did know is that ÷ç briefly what he looked like basically and whc$ap hadeká, donez8 yes. >> what happened in that courtroom that morning is that he killed the sheriff'sk)cñ deputy guarding !a0e#%im aq c femaleç÷r officer, taken herc2d@ gun, gone into the courtroom, shot and killed the judge, shot and killed the court reporter, then ran and got out and killed two more law enforcement officersvdqzlñ him.d' later that$ night he wound up at your house.s7
you went out to buy cigarettes around 2:00 a.m. what happens? >> well i noticed a truck with a person in itrneázng up whenzpq i.h t left. it was very brief. ways gone about five =wjf minutes. i came back and noticed he was still in the truck. i thought twice aboutprdn açliit. everyone would think twice about it but i;i#f thought go inside. that is what i did. i to walk towards myzó.tapartment. then i heard him get out of his car. >> in the moment we fear. you hear footsteps coming up behind you. you don't know what to do. >> right. >> he got ut nsytñyou. >> =!exwell at this point i couldn't turn. it was door to the apartment or?t turn around and face him. so i unlocked the door and he was there. pointing a gun at me. >> what happened? did he lay hands on you? >> i>hnw started to ?w cream. he came at me quicklyáputjñ his hand over my mouth saidçq+÷ shut up. if you be quiet i won't hurt
you. he just grabbed me andisw locked the door. >> did you know at that moment who it was? >> no.z g i did not at first. >> so he brings you into your back house. >> right. >> and tell viewers what happened he took me in the bathroom. there are no windows in there. he told me to sit in the6c( bathroom. he started to walk around the house. i heardgkpz him walking around and he came gz back wq gi some tape and extension cord and different things and he bound my3]co feet and arms. just tied me up. >> what were you thi>:7 that >> he asked me do you know who i am? i didn't. i said am i supposed to know? he said have you been 6 watching2)v the news? then it dawned)cdi onúm me. the mug shot;@éñ and i-já!watched earlier. and so i said great. thinking to myself,us0t thea÷js said he'seáñ killed thre^p people. i'm going to be next.
i didn't think there was hope for mescpñ at all. >> yet, did you fight? >> no. he told me if i didgpkc he asked me to do that he won't hurt me.çtqj and i don't know about you but i didn't have any other choice1:$t t0u to believe him. dwt wanted to%> you startñ yourh,3words and your faith turned out to be>íy your saviour. >> yes. >> did you have n instinct there was an opportunity to form a bond with him? >> when we][+÷ come backtyét ashley will ;i answerf? that question and will share tñg amazing story of what happened when she got a hold of briandw'ñ nichols guns. but first, as the drama#h÷.xf÷ unfolded?!e2% that way, one famous fox news reporter found him amazingly in the just feet from ashley smith's e apartment. and when we come back geraldo riviera joins us with that
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zcl, isz!?n hearine/ áh @&hc% police have surroundedrwuwfgj an apartment&b complex north of atlanta. let's go to geraldo riviera live from duluth georgia. geraldo what4 can you tell us? >> i'md÷ about 20 miles north of atlanta and a hostage situation has been confirmed by the authorities. they have a home0ñq surrounded inside of the apartment-lc complex. they do not confirm that it is brian nichols they have inside"xme>x)ñ[ar if he is holding a hostage inside. but i hope to one of the public affairsy officers&÷nu and the officer told me they have &+fknichols. >>x @ telling fox news nichols is in custody. we're getting word right now. >> yes. >>yi nichols islxqñ in custody. >>4í"rrz glad to hear that.
that is÷ óf >>cñ!z it's a chevy. they got the ;v#rbñ brian, they've got it. >> they got the s.o.b.is what we heard gerald describing action on what turned out to be a ring side seat in the capture of nichols and the u9 9 geraldo arrived before the federal agents and+/é reporting live on%?hy fox news channel as officers were just rolling up. geraldo joins us now. how did you find yourself in the heart of the >> i was interviewing the attorney at his office remember,:xn÷ nichols wiped out everybody that had anything to do in the case. the judge, the court reporter. it was logical his attorneyyzi who ffphad failed him would be#ze[ the next in line. another target. we heard on the radio there was
this hostage situation developing in&t thebpd÷ bsuburbanw5áj county.h >> there was a manhunt. >> besides, atlanta was locked down and it was very tense. everybody was obsessing over- p where this man might strike next.÷afn i was attracted to the case thisún# (thu reckless violence where was this guy going with this murder? >> he didn't have a violent criminal history.xm÷ he'd been not yet within andrc:ñ $r; have aaaçé murderous past. killing the judge,p[ñ court reporter and deputies. killing an atf officer that happened on him during theeñ escape. so i'm interviewing the lawyer. we heard from the secretary of the lawyer this news report that they have this unrelated hostage situation developing in the
suburban county. now, the decision i had to make at this point is is that-ñ nicholsy3rx or unrelated crime taking mer>nem away from the center of the action there inwsçdd$ ñ atlanta? where the unfolding mass murders happened? so-y÷ we made the decision to go. we got there, as you suggest, very soon before many of the authoritiest and the situation was developing. and the police were buttoned.j+k down. suburbaniagñ cops wereqñ as officen happens because i have ÷! relationship with the cops there isóywk anr bñ old
knowing if they had apprehended him. >> when i got there, i knew )c.$ydtq jr'g of the fact he wanted to surrender. we thought it was still a hostage situation there in that densely-packed suburb. so it had one of the happy endings to a grim story. what i find intriguing and perplexing is why he was not given the death sentence given the fact he killed, in cold blood. but the jury hung on the death sentence and the judge imposed consecutive life sentence. >> i want to correct i said he killed the first deputy she
suffered severe brain damage. she's not actually dead. he was glad to hear it. that he was afraid for his life and knew it was on open you know openly known what his client had done. >> the story was unfolding in realtime. everybody was holding their breath. the man that? what does ve to lose to kill 6, 8, or 10? we knew he had taken weapons of those he had slain. law enforcement reacts in a rapid fashion, but it takes time to build up. you have suburban officers then we got there. then officers from the broader community. the feds, downtown atlanta have to get the word that it isvhk indeed açfsz kidnapping situation. a federal, phone shall federal offense. not your run of the mill
>> if i treat him like a human being and not someonesu;'c thathy]ñ just killed someoncp me goqjo! and nobodyrxa z has to óy+ die. i told him my little girl]ña;ej havewok a daddy ñ anymore. ck]jrñtz40 describing her firstit description of stunningly, as she[z÷ had a chance to grab the gun nichols was carrying and shoot the;yl÷ man didn't. here now, the next part ofje the interview. >> you start talking to him.éz did you have an instinctv4mj there was á an opportunityrdbh to form a bond with him?h5 !s well i don't know. that tries to put myselfbhvñ3:oe in
other peoples' sw situation? i started to do thinking how would i, what would i want? so for me my job was important to me.qçw' that is one of the%/u questions i asked him. do you have children? im-k asked him why he dids02b what hebñ%2 did. anod$wu question is juslh to spark conversation with him. >> he just had a baby a few daysuioó earlier. a new father. >> yes. >> you were a mother as well. and are. and one of thex'7i thinöq we didn't know about first broke, everyone is like this is anovx#xd incredible woman.4met#3íd that you, yourself were suffering1angreatly that night. you were addictedexy to meth and your daughter'sj9] father was2ym÷ killed in connection with his own drug dealing and you didn't
see a clear pathntwh out of the hell in whichrí!you wereis-_ju)jt even before brian nichols came to your door. so at onem point he's got you captive. the topic turned to(íeocç[ç72zxyrdrugs. >> yes. >> did you offer you drugs?td >> he asked me if i had any drugs. he asked me for é marijuana. and you know just talked about, i was in thez4ec mitt7nñ of a crystal meth=c addiction. i had donevññ meth the night before this happened and5y i had some le,rv over. i put it in a place that would be obvious to him if he ransacked my5%fz apartment and he halfway done. and so when he said do you have any drugs i told him yeah.uç;q#s6÷ i didn't want him to find them and realized i lied. >> hécá you wal0mt him to the drugs?
said he never had done meth before. ó >> he2 ) did thec÷ #1:hdrugs. >> ho doing9u them over and over. what is thatyé/í!át for you? understanding this killer was doing crystal meth in your apartment? >> for me i thought this is crazy. i mean first of allróq i don't know why i just offered this to him. it is a drug that made me very paranoid and)ñ@síz did crazy+zd things to me. made me do off the wall things. as meth is known to do. so watching him was very scary for me. but you know also he5 asked me three different times do you titkpwant to use thi&ñ with me? why don't you do&e this with me? and i really believed that jesus christ toosm nichols and he wasn't asking me if i wanted to do drugs with iz him. god was askingsñ!+óp1 me if i wanted to do drugs and if i did it was going to be the last time i did
and the last0oú of my life. i believe god was saying do you life or do you want a new one? if you say no i'll give you new life. to bemla÷ lhonest a new life even for five 3@ sounded moreqvp than the way i had been living. >> you see that now in retro suspect. were you conscious of that? of that presence? did you feel that presence? or just a strong instinct? probably for the first time to say no? >> no. i eo felt the presence of god telling memm+ñ this is it. you can choose the old life or the new life. and i will give it to you. like i said[ñst( idn't know if i was going to make it out of there pw i didn't know9?$ç if it wasrr goingz;[ to be five minutes or 50 years. but as soon as i chose not to do:@a÷ those drugs,%dw for me. %@hvá jbwnow? iwútz realize ashley smith wasn't in
control. and neither was brian.@j÷ nichols butoñ jesus was in control and the rest of the night was going to be the waysx!he wanted it to be. >> there wereo ájjt moments as the night went on including a coupz9 tçñ escape. there wasñr' atkud time first where(2-s you, he let you go to the bathr7m0f and what was in the bathroom? >> thei>m >> right. >> so he realizes she's got the weapons now. and instead of grabbing them and turning themgwúç on him, he returned thembçiu when he banged on the door and said give them back. that was effort to build trust or a fear? >> for me just a fear because i never used a gun before. i thought i will if iqázñ pick6r these gunsçy2 i'll probably end up shooting myself. you know? or doing damage to&?çr me. that so that is -- >> another÷ convinced you to help him hide
the9li get away car. he had stolen the car. and he got you out of the apartment to help him hide it. why didn't you run in those cw9 moments? what was it? did you just what --t!y was it $pa fear? or knowledge that i'm going to get of this? >> the story of how thisyzór hostage taking ended is amazing but the story of what happened since with ashley smithnztt isvuíw just asjscz powerful. you will hear both and we'll speak with tonye72[s8ç perkins when we return with the last part of theknm story.
walk out of this apartment and pay for what you did than it is to go out of this apartment with guns and lose your$ z over it. so >>uxoc imagine just a moment someone is holding you hostage. they killed four people and have nothing to live for. aft%flb=zk: spending seven hours wondering if that personó is going to end your life they set you free. ashley smith talks2y about thatm%eñ feels like. >> why did you or knowledge that i'mub going to get out ofaón this? >> i think looking when i read the book or watch theúyhx movie i'm like go girl get out of there. you have a chance.f÷htt4 several things went through my y]>t mind. my car was notíi[ very good. it had been breaking down on a regular basis.
and i think i feared if i tried to get away it would breakdown. >> too risky. >> and i believe god, once i chose not to do drugs'c1 god took control and began to lead#)f that night. i just kept saying he will let mees> you saw the clip of kate mara playing you. like a78gq rehab attempt. she throws the book in the gar garbage garbage. did that happen? >> no. that didn't happen. it was introduced to me in a church. >> the first>sk time someonehrwj
introducedv]t the book what kind of effect did it have on you? >> for me i needed an answer to that question. i sat in hutch that day before they introduced the book i began to thank god. i don't know why i'm here at this church service. i shouldn't be here. i'm+p%ru worthy of being here. i want my life to change. andfm1 i'm in this place to where iáaá st not because i want to. just the way of life. that is what i do to survive and i want to change. and right about that time thei1w$ pastor said the church is going to be reading this book. if you want one, they're so and so much money. if you don't have the money9yn get one anyway. and i picked it up and started to read it. >> what made you pull it out start reading to brian nichols that night? i(=+ .
>> well i happened to be reading it forzxnast( 32;dx days. after i chose not to do the drugs i1í felt a huge need to back up something involving god. so i asked brianezp nichols if i can read. he said yeah if you read it outloud. he made me read itj >> thep/em passage was from chapter 32 using what god gave you. and it reads in partñ=3y using what god gave you what you are is god's gift to you. what you,ekí do withcrk yourselfz3;u is your gift to god. godç deserves your best. he shaped you for a purpose and expects you tom#=ñ make the most of he asked youbue follow up questions. >> weoíoç had been talking about]x'< each other and izç&íut about his familyn uhc% he asked about mine.$sgñ
and ii7 had told)as him my husband, my first husxa+" was:g killed and things like that. he [ minister íáw people. maybe youshare to help other people. v(j÷q asked me what i thought he should do. should he3 what should he>[?÷ do? i told him he had7 @yz turn himself in and mayber÷d his pma(áq was to minister to peopleuu inqlx prison. >> do you know whether he's doing that? >> i n odon't. >> you haven't had contact4z)h with him? >> i don't have any contact with him. if i were to that would be the biggest question is did he use that second chance? >> no we'res]ñ getting ahead ofzñ?y ourselves. so you read him the package. you make him pancakes in the morning. howtú did you g%8g?n out? >> he just let me go. i had been askingifól from the
beginning.fép tooftd go see paige the next morning. >> your'u;ddaughter. >> yes. if i don't show up pe'yçv are going to wonder th to come looking for xiñn!4pfñ me. and for many times when i asked, several times he said no. you're not going anywhere. no.v[lñ as the night went?8 on. he started to change his mind. i wouldo3gé)tái him maybe, i'll see, we'll see how it goes.hññ about 9:00 he said what time do youám i was likeqlm now is a good time.pç&jm%÷- he just let me leave. >> describe the feeling when youm-< closed that door? >>k.s when i closed the door it still was too good to be true. my knees were just shaking. and i think what i got in the car,=2jcranked it and made it4)]i aroundf÷úb the corner it was a sigh
of relief like wow. did that happen? then realizing yes. it happened. and moresof8$u i walked away going that changed my mñ >> you called 911. >> i did. i called 911. >> were you there when the enforcement officers >> actually. they told me to go back and go toqju1ç safe place. and they sent officers to meet me there. they 2ñ didn't send others until they were sure-ú=y it was him. i had to take them to find the nq truck. after that,o>dñ we got(dmti there were helicopters, lx]qs.w.a.t. people everywhere. >>vvk get to the point of before and after. the ashleyúv/:ráhç>k was there before9áp that encounter, is she%qáñ still with us? >> i'mp warfaregé v +aanymore.
the person there that night was still a human ú i think she has been there because that person was saved by god's >- today i'm still a personr93o saved by god's y1dagrace. that night i laid(z down my brokenness to god and gave it to him. >> did you ever do drugs again? >> no. >> tell;o,p us what happened with paige >>!;eí paige a>z!ññ iñ aunt and uncle for a year.[q i wanted to be very solidúbxv in got remabwógd to my husband, daniel,áu paige is now 16. i have a 14-year-old step daughter andbbc ave a 4-year-old son together. i have gone around the world sharing myf!r story to different -x churches, retirement homes, andóç
you know just i love more than anything being a mom. so grateful i have the opportunity to be ah today. >> how many peo@jthink this storyn$]v is about the&-vifçxwbook? what?j÷ do you think this story is about? >>(wva i thinkx)=z it's a"w=story[gc of redemption. it's a story of6cu not everybody can say my life is affected by drugs but everybody in life #áut [ñsomething. and i think this story is-yv about laying down:?r your brokenness and oñing it to god. getting b has[a) planned for us. 'úu.jut&&k9 people when they see the movie saying if god did it for her, he'll do it for meja#ñ too. >> ashley best of luck to qxayou. >> thank you. >> thank you for being here. >> the book is t promoting the movie version described thek7cç film
> in the moment, were you conscious of that presence? did you feel that presence or the stron instinct problemry for the -- probably for the first time to say no? >> no. i felt the presence saying you could choose the old life or new life and i will give it to you. i said i didn't know if i was going to make it out of there a alive. i didn't know if it would be five minute of the new life or 50 years of the new life. as soon as i chose not to do those drugs, it was a sense of freedom for me. physically i knew i was still being held captive. ashley smith wasn't in control and neither was brian nichols, jesus was in control and it would be the way he wanted it to be. >> ashley says the story of her
in that apartment are a man and woman struggling with personal demons and by faith each emerges somehow better for the experience experience. joining me tonemy perkins president of the family research council and still speaks to groups around the country and author of the new book "no fear," stories of a courage new generation standing for truth. the story has to move even non-believers a little to stop and consider what the power of faith in god can do for your life. >> it's a powerful story. as a law enforcement officer i have not seen many cases end like this. it really is the power of redemption as she simply read from "the purposes driven life" and the message of redemption and all of us whether we admit it or not are searching for that
peace that comes through forgive forgiveness of jesus christ. she tells that story, both lives on wrong paths but they have to pay for the choice this is a made but forgiven. >> she paid through her drug addiction and losing custody of her daughter for a time and obviously that was a beginning of a new life for her. are you surprised hollywood chose to make a movie like this? >> somewhat but not completely. that's this is really ap inn inspireing but tragic story. four people lost their lives. this thing ended the way it did. you can't argue with the evidence. some people say that religion stuff i'm not all for. just like nichols said i don't want that church bs. the reality is the evidence is there. this thing ended in a peaceful situation where he surrendered himself. as you said earlier he had no reason to do that after taking four lives.
he could have killed her and four other people on the way out. it ended different because of that message. that this is power of jesus christ transforms people and makes us free. >> people can argue about god in the public square but at least keeping the porch light on for god in the public square? we're sort of removeing god from every corner of life right now. you see the power of faith and belief in him that can change lives in this story? >> that is why we must keep that light going. you see it. the evidence is overwhelming. look at my home state of louisiana, angola prison where the most dangerous prisons, one of the most in the united states transformed by the interjection of faith, they're having revival in that prison. it's the power of the gospel and transforms even the lives of prisoners. >> the story of forgiveness, the ability of this woman taken hostage in her own home bound
up left in her bathroom she didn't know what would happen to her and knowing he had killed four others she in the moment finding the power to forgive. >> not only to forgive but the peace -- think about that as a young woman, being in a situation with a guy you know just killed four people you know he was a rapeist. she had the peace. she just told you that because of god speaking to her that she could make a choice. she made that choice and god walked through that event with her. >> it's amazing. it is an inspiration to just do better and be better. tony it's great to see you. >> and receive that forgiveness. it's powerful. >> thanks for being here. >> thank you. >> we'll be right back. from scratch and sprinkles on brown sugar streusel. so that you can spend more time making special moments with your family. marie callender's. it's time to savor.
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and earned a shiny new office upgrade. i run on quickbooks. that's how i own it. whether your car is a new car an old car a big car a small car a long car a short car a car you soup up a car you show off a car you deck out a car for the open road a car for off road a car for on the road all you have to do is
the energy that lights up your world. but we do. we're exxonmobil. and the cleaner-burning natural gas we produce generates more of our electricity than ever before... ...helping dramatically reduce america's emissions. because turning on the lights, isn't as simple as just flipping a switch. energy lives here. what do you think of the ashley smith story? does it inspire you to forgive? believe? seek redemption? let us know. thanks for watching everyone. i'm megyn kelly.
this is the kelly file. they are ripping us left and right. the leaders are so much smarter. they are ripping us left and right. the wall is peanuts. >> people are actually starting to listen to what the candidates themselves are saying. and they recognize a failed policy. >> you have debates where thai trying to get you into a food fight and insulting each other. i ain't going to do it and if others attack me i'm not going to respond. >> but i believe we need someone who has a proven regard to go against hillary clinton. he