tv Outnumbered FOX News September 27, 2016 9:00am-10:01am PDT
candidates went after each other on everything from the economy to fighting the islamic state savages to race in america and it got personal at times as well. this is outnumbered i'm harris hypocrisy -- faulkner. i'm so excited. #one lucky guy. fox news political anchor and anchor of special report and what we saw last night bret. >> i think we are going to talk about entertainment news. >> no. [laughter] >> they gave me the wrong packet . >> he knows, right, debate. >> gop nominee will hit harder
after he tried to get under his skin about business. >> donald was very fortunate in his life and started his with $14 million, borrowed from his father. >> my father gave me a small loan and built it into a company that's worth many, many billions dollars with some of the greatest assets in the world. hillary, i ask you this, you've been doing this for 30 years. why are you just thinking about these solutions right now? >> i've been a senator, donald. >> you haven't done it. >> well, donald, i know that you live in your own reality, but that is not the facts. >> typical politician, all talk, no action, sounds good, doesn't work, never going to happen, but we have no leadership and honestly that starts withsecret. >> i have a feeling by the end of this evening i will be blamed for everything that's happened. >> why not? >> yeah, why not?
just -- just join the debate by saying more crazy things. >> i will release my tax returns against my lawyer's wishes when she releases her 33,000 emails that have been deleted. as soon as she releases them, i will release, i will release my tax returns. >> maybe he doesn't want the american people, all of you watching tonight to know that he has paid nothing in federal taxes. >> that makes me smart. >> i have met a lot of the people who were stiffed by you and your businesses, donald, i've met dish washers, painters, architects. >> maybe he didn't do a good job and i was unsatisfied with their work, which our country should do too. >> wow. i plays different inside the room than it does around the country. we will know at the end of the week what people thought outside. what did it feel like inside the hall last night in. >> you're exactly, harris.
i went back, one of the reasons i'm so tired i went back to the debate. he came back to the change argument and he came to you've been at this for 30 years and he was talking about the economy and he was really hitting it hard and if somebody tuned into those first 25 minutes and then tuned out, they would say, wow, donald trump was on top of his name. when you're in the room, what was interesting is you couldn't see close up the factual expressions. harris: do you think that made a difference? >> yeah. really showed the reaction to each moment. it's important to oint out on polls, eight of the last ten times where you -- since 1976
polls have moved towards the nonincumbent challenger, the nonincumbent party by about a average of 2.6% after the first debate. romney moved 4.4% after the first debate last time. if you look at the polls after the first debate, they are within 2 points of the final election numbers. harris: right. >> we will see what happened to the polls herement some was what we talked to insiders, megyn, challengers winning the debate and often time it's the outside e who gets the labor challenger. just looking at the subjects who were on the stage, who get that is labor. >> i thought he came out really strong in the beginning and when he was hitting her on isis, talking about the economy, all that was really good and when they talked about birther issues, he lost that.
i threw a party last night. i was looking forward today. harris: clay was at your party. >> i want him to be a lucky guy. i threw a big party. one of my disappointing debates of my whole life. i thought we accomplished nothing. lester holt missed opportunities, why wasn't benghazi brought up, e-mail scandal. by the way if you're a foreign policy hock, nothing was brought up. you're talking about history about iraq war and not planned going forward. i was entirely disappointed by the whole thing. harris: the tax runs was time they spent time on. it got 6% in things that likely voters were interested in as did birtherrism. >> and emails. harris: yes, that's true. the things that we likely cover,
likely voters they likely like something else. how do you think your candidate did last night? julie: i was actually very pessimistic about hillary clinton's chances. she has a threshold she has to meet. she has to knock this out of the ballpark virtually on every level. all trump had to do was not take the bait and keep it together for 90 minutes and he would have exceeded the very low threshold the media established. harris: do you think he did that? julie: he allowed himself to be baited by her into what he was baited, the rosie oddonell and ms. unyears that got too fat for him. the e-mail, birtherrism. he took the bait, he didn't need to the that. 90 minutes of keeping it together to pass low threshold and continued to be baited. if i'm the american public and watching, if she could bait him
-- melissa: this couch is a perfect example of what happened last night. nobody won or lost a single vote. everyone hate it is other side even more this morning than they did last night when they went to bed. not unundecided person decided to vote for those people. the only person who gained was gary johnson. harris: i saw jill stein. >> it didn't have to be like this. i wanted to learn a lot more. it didn't happen last night. >> she was well prepared, let's say that. harris: are you picking on me because i prepared for this debate, but you know, bret, one last question before we move on and talk deeper about the economic part of the discussion last night, do you think that mr. trump gets any credit for this being his first time and then looking at it through the prism or not?
>> it gives him credit for being on the stage, however, i think you're right, he was drawn into questions that he didn't have to be drawn into. that is trump in that he's authentic and one is he answers every question because he doesn't do traditional politician where you answer a little bit and pivot or how about hillary on the e-mail question where she says, secretary clinton said, you know, it was a mistake, period and there was no follow-up and they just moved on. melissa: more sparks started flying last night when donald trump attacked hillary clinton over two controversial trade deals that came after the democratic nominee slammed trump over his plan for the economy, watch this. >> in fact, it would be the most extreme version, the biggest tax cuts for the top percents of the people in this country than we've ever had. i called it trumped-up trickled down because that's exactly what
it would be. >> you've been doing this for 30 years, why are you just thinking about these solutions right now? for 30 years you've been doing it and now you've been thinking of solutions. >> well, not quite that long. i think my job did a pretty good job in the 1990's. >> he approved nafta. the single worst trade deal ever approved in this country. your husband signed nafta which was one of the worst things that ever happened. >> that's your opinion. that is your opinion. >> nafta is the worst trade deal maybe ever signed anywhere but certainly in the country. now you want to approve transpacific partnership. you were totally in favor of it and then you said, i can't win that debate. you know if you did win, you would approve that and that would be lsm as bad as nafta. nothing will ever top nafta. >> i was against it once it was finally negotiated and the terms
were layed out, i wrote that in -- i wrote that -- >> you called that the golden standard. melissa: to me by far that was his strongest exchange, he understood all the issues. that was his strength, what did you think of her responses there? >> well, you're right. that was in the first 25 minutes that was talked about. that i think her response, she goes on in the next sentence to say, no i didn't say it was the gold standard and i hoped it was the gold standard f you look at the quote, she does say tpp sets the gold standard and, you know, that was a fact-check that was not checked, you know, real-time. i think that issue, the economy, but more importantly the change. this is a change or supposed to be a change election and if he kept on hammering the 30 years, the change and he said it five times in the first 25 minutes,
if he continued that through 90 minutes that would have been a different story. melissa: she wiggles and says, my husband did really well in the 90's. i don't know, the wiggle is a big tell of her. >> it got a lot of attention on twitter too. him drinking water and sniffing, her wiggling. melissa: my husband. >> she wants to play it both ways. she wants to take credit when it's good and a different person when things are bad. the majority or half of them are going to gary johnson right now. you need to explain when you're attacking him. his message if you agree is easy to understand and that's, i think, when he's talking to swing state voters, people in the rust belt who want jobs to come back, maybe don't know what it means but know under hillary clinton is going to be more of the same as obama administration.
melissa: that was a good attack on his part, you've been doing this for 30 years and that's the whole come complaint about why the country isn't prosperous, you've been at this for a long time? what did you think of the response? julie: i was watching the first half hour and i think this is it, he's knocking this out of the ballpark, he was excellent on the issue and she was not. look, there's no good answer for her in tpp, the reality is she was for it before she was against it. as i said, had he kept it up for 90 minutes, he would have put this away. he allowed himself to be baited and again f he had stuck to core issues, if you're a millennial you don't know what trickled down economics are. but instead of focusing on that
for the next 60 minutes he proceed today allow himself to be baited. again, bret, if people had watched the first half hour, they would have thought donald trump did a fantastic job. in reality if he would have stayed the full 90 minutes -- >> here is the real question, if those numbers don't move hillary clinton's way she has a real problem on her hands, that means that they have underestimated the feeling in this country that the establishment is not getting. harris: potentially means that she could suffer if he decides to raise game and he didn't practice, obviously, first time i would argue or maybe they didn't practice it and that's doing pivots an getting back on point. melissa: we have to squeeze in a break. the candidates clashing big time over isis and how to defeat the terrorist. who got the better of that exchange and how will it
resinate with voters, plus you know we have the best singers from each candidate and after the show you can join our live chat by clicking the over time tab at fox news.com/outnumbered. facebook.com/outnumbered. you can tweet all of us, we will be looking at it during the break. we will see you there. remember when you said that men are superior drivers? yeah... yeah, then how'd i'd get this... allstate safe driving bonus check? ... only allstate sends you a bonus check for every six months you're accident-free ... silence. it's good to be in, good hands. i want my blood sugar i to stay in control.ck. so i asked about tresiba®.
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>> during last night's debate candidates facing off over strategies to defeat isis and who is to blame for the terror's group rise, hillary clinton saying hillary clinton was sharing too much of her plans for the enemy to see. >> just go to the website, she tells you how to fight isis. i don't think general macarthur won't like that. >> at least i have a plan. >> no, no you're telling the enemy what we want to do. you're telling the enemy what we want to do. no wonder you've been fighting isis your entire adult life. [laughter] >> that's -- go, please the fact-checkers get to work. >> president obama and secretary
clinton created a vacuum the way they got out of iraq because they got out when they shouldn't have been in and once they got in the way they got out was a disaster. >> george w. bush made the agreement about when american troops would leave iraq, not barack obama. >> so bret, i was infuriated when she said this. isis is using chemical weapons against our soldiers, what are you going to do about it? what deed you think of the exchange? brett: first, the last sentence was factually was wrong. the expectation was it was going to be renegotiated. the iraqi said we are not going to do it but even the former defense secretary bob gates said if the u.s. wanted to do it, they would have been able to
ant totiate that but the obama renegotiate that status of forces agreement and thereby pulled out troops out. that's nuance. a little bit in the weeds but what she said was not factually accurate. so on the isis thing, you're right, it's urgent. it's now. what is the plan? and we didn't get that. instead, you're also right in that hillary clinton managed to bait donald trump into defending and talking again about howard stern and iraq. if it's about donald trump it's not a winner of a debate moment for him. harris: that's interesting, bret, that's where i see the lack of experience coming in. it takes a lot to elevate that moment. you don't rise to every occasion but that was one that you need today elevate and get the kim weapons and aleppo and show what he has talked about.
brett: how about syria? how she was affect -- she effected u.s. policy in regards to syria and what it is now. it's essentially falling apart. harris: he needed to elevate that moment and lester holt didn't help do that. melissa: i mean, go to my website. it was like a drinking game. read my book again and again. you didn't write either of those things, telling people to read something that somebody else wrote is is ingenuous. she's like i read, i wrote it, the whole thing, maybe it's all on there. who can get through all of it, not the viewer, not the average person at home, they don't have time for that. harris: it wasn't on the front page. you need somebody sitting there to call it up on the front page. >> here is the issue for him, you can't suddenly started
talking the iraq war and call sean hannity. he's not general macarthur. take my word for it, i have a secret plan, i know how to do this, people might say, okay, you have done this before. donald trump who has no experiment in government, military or foreign policy to say take my word for it when i'm basically a reality show host who runs a real estate business, it's not something that people will feel comfortable with. he needs to provide specifics. he's not eisenhower. >> if they don't get specific, my head is going to explode. critics slamming moderator, was this more mainstream media bias or should trump have brought those issues himself?
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>> moderator coming under fire for fail to go ask hillary clinton tough questions. he grilled donald trump, birther scandal and stop and frisk crime policies but no questions, no follow-ups for the democratic nominee on benghazi, the clinton foundation pay to play or deplocials comment. trump missed opportunity to bring him up himself but he did hit her on the e-mail scandal. watch it. >> i made a mistake using a private e-mail. >> that's for sure. >> if i had to do it over again, i would obviously do it differently. but i'm not going to make any excuses, it was a mistake and i take responsibility for that. >> that was more than a mistake. that was done purposely. okay that was not a mistake that was done purposely, when you have your staff taking the fifth amendment, taking the fifth so
they're not prosecuted, when you have demand that set up do illegal server taking the fifth, i think it's disgraceful and believe me, this country thinks disgraceful also. harris: trump tweeted, nothing on e-mail, nothing about benghazi but to be fair there no questions rather. you were the expert moderator on the couch and you have done this before, how did lester holt do and where did he fall short? >> let me preface by saying i like lester holt and i don't get in the business of criticizing moderators because it's tough trying to get the thing on the tracks. there were a couple of opportunities where he should have asked the tougher question to hillary clinton like he asked donald trump and, for example, the e-mail follow up should have
been there. if you're going to ask a question women and looks or how hillary clinton looks, then deplorable's question probably fits in. if you're going to ask a question about the birther issue which is totally legitimate, the clinton foundation probably should have been asked about. i guess it's the balance that i felt like could have been improved on but i get how tough that job is. melissa: there's another thing that's more nuance. i like to call fight club. when you have people in front of you that are debating in opposite sides, i mean, you are getting one hit behind the couch, the other one, it's a very specific skill to keep the debate going. you don't want to inject yourself but at the same time you have to keep the two people in control. that's not something lester does every day. we do that around here like
every day. it's a different skill. it's a different skill. harris: spent a lot of time in cable tv and the flight club that you're talking about. we had the whole fact-checking conversation going into this that was different than the primary debate on either side, democrat or republican. so then the question becomes how much of that is his job, is that in his head as well and can't we just have a bullpen do that some place and just let the moderator keep it going as melissa is talking. julie: it's interest to me, it's not his job to intervene or fact-check and now i'm hearing that a lot of people are complaining that he wasn't asking her about deplorables, about benghazi and other issues, if that's his job, look, the hits that she took at trump she initiated. i'm not sure about that. all the issues -- right, all the issues that he did not really bring up, she took the shot at trump and that shows that she
was prepared. she knew how to wrangle with him. is it lester holt's job to support donald trump and raise him up. bret: that's clear. there was a lot of low-hanging fruit that donald trump could have grabbed. there's no doubt about it. >> it's never good when you're trending on twitter, where is lester. i do think it's a fine balance. he was -- impacted all the criticism matt got for not hitting trump. if you're going to bring up hillary clinton looking presidential and you have to go toe to toe and maybe her husband's relationship with women and shaming them over the years. it seemed -- i just want -- i want someone to moderate a debate who doesn't make it about them. i'm looking at you anderson cooper and intervene and follow up.
again, this is very hard, but i don't -- there are people quite frankly you do it well, bret. there's people that do it well. harris: expert on the couch here. when you talk about stop and frisk, was that an opening from an african-american moderator. there was an opportunity there or no? bret: he did go after her on super predators. he took some of that, donald trump, did, but there were many more opportunities. i know. if you look back at the debate that jim did, you don't think jim was all over the place, the debate commission would like a moderator to be invisible for the most part and that's just the format that they prefer. they would like the candidates to interchange with each other. if he's going to fact-check, though, you to fact-check on both sides. harris: all right.
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and that's law and order. we need law and order. if we don't have it, we're not going to have a country. our inner cities, african-americans, hispanics are living in hell because it is so dangerous. you walk down the street, you get shot. >> it is really unfortunate that he paid such such dire, negative, picture of black communities in our country. stop-and-frisk was found to be unconstitutional. and in part because it was was ineffective. it did not do what it needed to do. i think implicit bias is problem for everyone, not just police. >> you were the one that brought up the word super predator about young black youth. that is a term i think, it has been horribly met as you know. melissa: interesting. we looked at each other during implicit bias.
in case this is new dog whistle. implicit bias racism you acquired while you were asleep, you dent know you had it no matter what color, you are biased and racist. you have it. may not realize it. it is a new buzz phrase. harris: triggers the safe zone necessity along with white previousprivilege. the challenge i think last night for that conversation again to be elevated, to go beyond the barbs back and forth about -- i really was waiting for where is the plan in all of this? the question which candidate did well with that? i think the nation is waiting for a plan. they're waiting for leadership. the president has not gone into, unless he did it today, charlotte? there has been a call for that top level of leadership and so there was an opportunity there for these two people on that stage. how did they do? meghan: violent crime spiked in 2015 by 11%. that is what we're talking about. this country is on fire when it comes to race relations. watch what is happening in north carolina last week. every time there is an incident
with police and a black man gets shot, i talk on radio three hours a day. this country is tearing themselves apart. they didn't say anything. our president didn't say anything. donald trump needs to be careful with, when black people walking down the street, black people are getting shot. distopian idea, crime is intense and scary, the idea if you're minority walking down the sheet you're getting shot and living in hell, i have some friends that take umbrage with that. >> to your point, i thought was interesting with that i prep many people for debates, this was the part of the debate everybody talking to their base. melissa: exactly. julie: this was the get-out-the-vote segment for this debate. what ended up happening she was talking to the debate, mentioned african-american churches and other community centers so instrumental in african-american inner-city life, he was trying
to scare the bejesus out of white voters, this dispopian would come over to the suburbs and wouldn't be contained in the inner-city. melissa: that is not what he was saying. julie: doug whistle to the base. this was the base portion. base portion of this debate. that did what i'm talking about. nobody's minds will be changed. you live in fear you go to harlem, you will get killed with a bullet stuck in your head -- harris: might have changed if we had seen an actual plan from one much these people. julie: talked about criminal justice reform all the time. harris: unions back him. melissa: this is one of those topics, you can he see it from the couch where everyone could have won. i think that is what julie started to say because he can talk about law and order, which resonates really well with his people. she can talk about all of the challenges that are going on in the cities with police and perception and "black lives matter," all those things they don't agree on, they could each won the issue. did that happen? >> i don't think so.
i agree this was base stirring. this is tough issue coming to stirring the base. obviously really, really splitting up different communities. there was an opportunity to take it to a different level, to say, let's not do this for politics. the african-american museum just opened this week. let's celebrate and try to figure out how we can make this -- harris: had you been there you would have said that. >> but neither said that. julie: doesn't help them. politically doesn't help them. that is the great answer for president of the united states. this is all about get out the vote portion. harris: opportunity to say it is not about us the politicians, it is really about america. >> independents would move to that answer. melissa: interesting. so you knew we would go there eventually if you were you watching last night, the big gender issue. how it played out, who won that moment and what was donald trump going to say that he didn't? was that a smart move? ♪ i'm terrible at golf.
presidential look. watch. >> she doesn't have the look. she doesn't have the stamina. i said she doesn't have the stamina. and i don't believe she does have the stamina. you have so many different things you have to be able to do and i don't believe that hillary has the stamina. >> mrs. clinton. >> he tried to switch from looks to stamina. but this is a man who has called women pigs, slobs, and dogs. and someone who has said pregnancy is inconvenience to employers. >> i never said that. >> women don't deserve equal pay unless they do as good a job as men. >> i was going to say something -- >> please very quick. >> extremely rough, to hillary, to her family, and i said to myself, i can't do it. i just can't do it. it is inappropriate. it is not nice. meghan: bret, how did that play
in the room? >> by that point this, is towards the end, the audience then was just reacting. they were clapping, they were laughing. they were reacting to, lester holt had to turn around a couple times. whenever donald trump is in this place it is probably not a good place. and he is, it is just not one that is going to win over -- his people as you said at beginning are going to behind him. he is trying to get the folks who are either on the edge or who could be persuaded. and this is, he could have easily said, listen let's not talk about that let's talk about things that change this country. this is not about me. it is about the country or something, you know, the pivot, again his achilles' heel is to answer everything. it is authentic but gets him in trouble. melissa: right. harris: did we hear america
great again? >> by not saying what he was going to say, he said it. oh, he was going to talk about that. melissa: whole thing was so uncomfortable. watching that entire segment again. i mean at this point during the night, you're right. first of all i don't know, so many people had gone away at that point, still zillions and zillions of people were watching. it was uncomfortable, all the back and forth. harris: very late in the journey. >> towards the end. harris: so the reason i ask about make america great again and you're talking about a pivot, he had somewhere to go there. again this comes from the practicing of that. i would think, just in my years of journalism, i mean, i think that gets practiced when you get into this, bring back not just your ideas but that slogan that puts it back on people. julie: what is interesting to me, defended calling rosie o'donnell a pig because she deserved it.
he criticized the former miss america to gained weight and surrogate rudy giuliani came out and sate hillary clinton was quote, unquote, too stupid to be president because she didn't know about monica lewinsky. was donna hanover, didn't judith nathan that he cheated on her? who is these people to blame the wife for husband's transgressions. the wife is the victim. to blame hillary clinton for monica lewinsky is crime against all women no hoe full well -- harris: person on twitter who was not on the stage last night. meghan: go to the sound very quick because i think his sound was interesting on "fox & friends." >> i know that person. that person was a miss universe person. and she was the worst we ever had. the worst. the absolute worst. she was impossible. she, she was the winner and, you know, she gain ad massive amount of weight, and it was, it was a real problem. we had a real problem.
not only that, her attitude and we had a real problem with her. so, hillary went back into the years and she found this, this was many years ago. and, found the girl and talked about her like she was mother teresa. it wasn't quite that way. but that is okay. harris: just to juxtapose, forget about for a second, texture of what he is saying. i know you will get into that in a minute. >> i don't need to. i mean i promise, it is okay. harris: first time we saw her today was on her plane, i believe, right, hillary clinton and talking about different types of topics and kind of carrying on from where she left off last night. now i give it to you. >> i just don't think this is place that he should go. i don't think he was asked specifically this morning. i have to go back and check the transcript. i think he brought that up to clarify himself. again when you're trying to influence independent voters or people especially, women, he is upside down on young woman, that
is not a place to be. meghan: i make speeches colleges all the time. half questions i get about politics and body image in the media. i've been fat shamed throughout my career. debate he hadly what launched my career post my father's campaign. i had a conversation with friend of mine. i don't think this is that big of a deal. anytime a woman see as man, you gain ad bunch of weight, she lost it, she looked unattractive, affects all women everywhere. all women know what it feels like to fat day. isis with chemical weapons why you're talking about a former miss universe gaining weight. it so is stupid. >> guys can have fat days too. julie: he is not talking about guys. she is not mother teresa because she gained some weight jewel. meghan: debate analysts say the we remembers synckers that jab your opponent. who had the best shots? we got them for you. ugh. heartburn.
harris: at their best presidential debates about issues and ideas and tough questions and they are about one line zingers that may leave lasting impression. we saw some. >> secretary clinton. is that okay? yes. i want you to be very happy. it is important to me. >> i have a filing by end of the evening i will be blamed for everything that happened. >> why not? >> yeah, why not.
[laughter] >> typical politician, all talk, no action. sounds good. doesn't work. never going to happen. >> i think that i think donald just criticized me for preparing for this debate. and yes, i did. and you know what i else prepared for? i prepared to be president. and i think that is a good thing. >> i will release my tax returns against my lawyerer's wishes when she releases her 33,000 emails that have been deleted. >> whoo, okay. [laughter] harris: shimmy, shimmy. favorite line from last night? melissa: it was shimmy. the definitely the shimmy. that is what she does. she was word salad and he was hothead. they were exactly what they thought they were. says everything and it means nothing and all the words around her. word salad. he is hothead.
can't get away from it. reinforced everyone's ideas about everything. harris: so funny, comedians put to sound beyonce's, no, word, word, word and her doing that. favorite line? >> his best line was, she has experience but it's the wrong experience. melissa: wrong kind of experience. you did it better, sorry. >> i think that again, if he had hit that throughout the debate. her lines, she was clearly ready. she had the line ready to be deployed about the stamina. she also worked to be prepared to be president. harris: your favorite line? meghan: really disappointed it wasn't policy specific. i don't care about zingers. this was reality debate. we didn't get anything. i hope they deliver on specifics. jewel yule this is about moments, not just about policies.
meghan: lasted on twitter eight seconds. julie: what do we remember about debates. i new john f. kennedy, you're not john f. kennedy. i paid for this microphone. i'm not going to use your youth and inexperience against you whatever that line was, been, 30 or 40 years, still remember some of these lines. the reason for that i think is because that's what debates are all about. that is what people remember. rick lazio had a great line, talked about on "outnumbered." not just about what goes on that day, but the postdebate analysis people remember. that is what these moments are about. harris: move on. >> donald trump spoke, i think 65, 67% of the time. harris: interesting. >> hillary clinton spoke not as much. harris: did we miss the bell? >> i'm pro bell. lester had to interrupt on time on a couple times. and that's overlooked in the criticism of lester. harris: ringing a bell in my ear right now. >> okay. harris: it has been great to have you on the couch.
you will stick around for "outnumbered overtime." foxnews.com/outnumbered. tap the "overtime" tab or watch us on facebook live. our handle is outnumbered fnc. we'll be back here noon eastern. we love having bret on. now, "happening now." died after debris from a house explosion struck him. >> he was called a rising star. and an investigation of the deadly blast that injured six police officers. we are covering all of the news "happening now". >> you have to have stop and frisk. >> center stage. can police use stop and frisk or is it unconstitutional.