tv FOX News Sunday With Chris Wallace FOX News October 4, 2010 2:00am-3:00am EDT
>> chris: i'm chris wallace, reporting from louisville kentucky, and this is fox news sunday. >> chris: the keep take senate show down with 30 days until the election it is one of the nation's most closely watched races. republican rand paul, one of the original tea party candidates, who opposes government intervention in the private sector. and, democrat jack conway, the state's attorney general. who supports much of the obama agenda. paul and conway, in their only national debate, on fox news. then a key player leaves the white house. we'll ask our sunday panel what rahm emanuel's departure means for the midterms and the president seeking re-election, and as mr. obama tries to whip
up the democratic base and congress leaves town with plenty of unfinished business, we go on the trail. all, right now, on fox news sunday. and hello again from fox news, today on the road, in louisville, kentucky. the home of the most famous horse race in the world, the iconic louisville slugger baseball bat and now one of the hottest senate races in november. we are in the studio, of wdrb tv, our fox affiliate in louisville and are joined by the two contenders for the kentucky senate seat, democrat jack conway and republican rand paul and, gentlemen, welcome to fox news sunday. >> good to be with you. >> chris: i'd like to ask you to take a minute, to lay out what you think is at stake in the race. what is the choice for kentucky voters. dr. paul, why don't you start. >> i'm concerned about the debt we are piling on, i think mountains and mountains of debt, i'm concerned about president obama adding trillions of
dollars of entitlement programs, i'm concerned about the president adding or allowing the largest tax hike in our history, and i'm concerned about president obama foisting cap-and-trade on kentucky which will be a disaster for our coal jobs. i think this election really is about the president's agenda, do you support the president's agenda, or do you not support it? i think his agenda is wrong for america, and i will stand up, against president obama's agenda, i think that is what people in kentucky want. >> chris: attorney general conway, same question. what is that the stake in this race and what is the choice for kentucky voters. >> chris, welcome to kentucky, it is a real, clear choice and we need to put the people of kentucky first and, washington has enough people standing up for them and as attorney general i have taken on pharmaceutical companies when they lied to our medicaid program, i have taken on oil companies, that avenhave
gouged us and there is a real, clear choice in the race, between someone who took on the issue and someone who says drugs are not a pressing issue in kentucky and someone who stands up to criminals and someone who says nonviolent behavior shouldn't be a crime and someone who supports the rights to the disabled and someone who said he's against the americans with guilty act, between someone who will stand up and protect medicare we need a $2,000 ays in deductible and that is a really clear choice. >> chris: attorney general conway you have gone further than that, on the campaign trail, you have called dr. paul crazy. your campaign ads have called him out of touch. why? >> i think he's out of touch with the values of the mainstream kentuckians, and as democrats we need to talk about our values more and we value inclusivity, and we have 12,000 new disabled vets since 9/11. here in the commonwealth of kentucky. and, i don't think it is appropriate to stand up and say you are against the americans with disabilities act. in that environment.
i'm not saying dr. paul is crazy. i think some of his ideas are out of the mainstream and out of touch with the values of normal kentuckians. >> chris: dr. paul, quite frankly you say very little about attorney general conway on the campaign trail and nothing about him in your ads. now is your chance, sir. >> we are waiting for him to catch up a little bit in the polls and we may refer to him more, but, really, what he needs to do is needs to either defend the president or run away and so far he's running away from president obama and the agenda. he supports obamacare and supported repealing the tax cuts, before he was against it, before he was for it again and cap-and-trade, has been on both sides of the issue and kentuckians will not tolerate someone who's ambivalent on cap-and-trade. it will be a disaster to our economy, and, these they're issues of the day, and these are the things people want to talk about. you know, people are concerned about jobs and the economy and if we pass cap-and-trade, it will be a disaster to kentucky's economy and to kentucky jobs. >> chris: let's talk -- and you
kind of led in the direction i wanted to head, in this debate, let's talk about jobs and the economy, which i think you would all agree are the key issues for voters hear and across the country. unemployment in kentucky is 10% an in fact has been below the figure of 10% only one month in the last year-and-a-half. attorney general conway, you say and it picks up on what dr. paul said, you would have voted for the stimulus and would have voted for t.a.r.p., $7 her billion for wall street and would have voted for obama's health care reform and so if you had been in the senate the last two years you would have started most of president obama's agenda. >> some of president obama's agenda. listen, these are all hypotheticals, i have been attorney general for the commonwealth of kentucky the last two years and the stimulus, everybody wants tax cuts and nobody talks about it, and, 30% went to keeping jobs to firefighters and policemen and the third went to shovel ready projects where the
administration has not done a great job, i would not have voted for the bailouts, there were not aenough accountability in them and people got bonuses after getting bailouts and health care, look, we have 654,000 kentuckians for the first time getting health care, i have a friend who had a kidney transplant and tells he how hard it is to get coverage with a preexisting condition and i want it to be -- i want medicare to engage in the bulk purchasing and i'm in the for the $2,000 deductible and taking the health care system back to a pre-world war ii system which rand paul is on the record as having said, and, i think it is a stark difference. >> chris: you take me in the direction of what i want to -- feel free to talk to each other, if you want to, dr. paul, you say you would have voted against the stimulus, kentucky received $2.9 billion, almost $3 billion in stimulus funds and according
to the records, to the government, 17,000 jobs were saved or created. what do you say to those people? fend or yourselves. >> actually look at the labor statistics, we have lost 17,000 jobs since the stimulus package, the stimulus package was a trillion dollars, if you divide it out and count only jobs created, it is $413,000 per job, and, more importantly we have to ask, where does the money come from, jack acts like it is for free, go and get it from santa claus in washington, and the money is not for free, the money has to be borrowed, right now, we are borrowing to the tune of $800 billion from china, $700 billion from japan, the list goes on and on. i think that amount of debt is threatening the foundations of our economy. and, it is incredibly dangerous and incredibly foolhardy to have a trillion dollar stimulus and another trillion dollars into obama care. the thing about government, is they notoriously underestimate the cost of things and what the
democrats tell us will be a trillion dollar health care could turn into a $3 trillion nightmare. a drag on the economy, and, it is already causing unemployment in kentucky and my health insurance went up 15% since obama's passed. obama care was passed, what will happen, it will hurt the economy and jobs in kentucky. >> i think of the two candidates, one is being more specific on jobs and i am proposing a home town tax credit, 20% tax credit for the cost of creating a job and is important, americans see our government is not just growing, but, we're providing incentives for the private sector to grow us out of the recession and i think we need to get the small and community banks funding again, the government bailed out a bunch of big banks on wall street and these regulators have come down hard on the small community banks. >> here's the problem. you say you want -- you support the banking regulation bill and the problem was with government banks, fannie mae and freddie mac, and, bad policies of the federal reserve, caused the recession and the credit crunch, and, yesterday, jack supports president obama supports the new
banking regulation, which, every bank in kentucky will tell you, it wasn't our problem, no banks failed in take, it -- in kentucky, i want to move on to something else. >> chris: you say on the fox business channel get the em a out of our coal business down here and osha out of our small businesses, the question, is there no role for government in protecting our environment and making our workplace safer? >> i think it is a combination of federal, state and local regulations. and what i would say is, which way do we want to shift the debate? do we want more federal or more local and there will be a bit of both but i would say we now have an epa that is writing rules, it sent out a press release and said, you know what? if congress doesn't pass greenhouse emission testing we'll do it on our own, i think the arrogance of unelected
bureaucrats to say they create law, needs to come to an end. we need to say to unelected bureaucrats, you do not make regulations, you do not... >> chris: i want to give attorney general conway 30 seconds to give a quick response to that. >> i'm against cap-and-trade, too, always have been. >> that is not true. >> chris: you supported the waxman-markey cap-and-trade bill in 2009. >> no, i didn't. >> chris: the polling green daily editorial said you flip-flopped on the issue, sir. >> i said i will always protect coal and electricity and -- >> you did not support. >> i did not support waxman-markey and i took on the epa and filed a lawsuit against them when they did what dr. paul described. so, i have been consistent in the and don't read the bowling green news, look at my taxes as attorney general... >> more importantly -- rand, more importantly, federal mine safety regulation, chris, are written in the blood of coal miners and rand paul wants to take federal mine safety regulation back to the 1930s and we lost 1500...
>> that is not -- >> we lost 34 last year and that is 34 too many and we need -- >> go back to cap-and-trade. in june of last year you issued a statement, that the paducah sun reported, yet another newspaper in kentucky as well that's courier, reported you issued a statement saying you supported the bill and were confident it could be reached. i met with you at the judge executive meeting and in that meeting you said you wanted to be part of the negotiating compromise and you were... you could be part of fixing cap-and-trade and making it work. >> i have been consistent en my position, i'll stand up for kentucky and make sure we keep our rates low and will do it as the next u.s. senator and took on the epa when they tried to do it outside of the legislature -- >> i want to turn to the bush tax cuts and i want to ask you about what i believe is a change in your position on the bush tax cuts, what you told the louisville editorial board in april, i would favor letting
expire probably the majority, majority of the bush tax cuts, and now you want to extend all of them. >> i was talking about the special interest provision that allow companies to ship our jobs overseas and that is where -- what i was focused on in that interview and i think raising taxes, we shouldn't be doing it at a time of recession, and, this now with 10% unemployment, with capital frozen on the sidelines, is no time to to be raising tax and in '02,y i was for the bush tax cuts then and was one of the few democrats for them and i think now we taught -- >> you were for them before you were against them before you were for them again and at the farm bureau debate you said you were bringing back the death tax. >> no, i didn't. >> you did, you specifically said you would not take a 55% tax on estates, you said 45%. >> no, i didn't, never said that. >> exemption -- >> well, dr. paul... i want to ask you a question. you have been consistent you said you wanted to extend all the bush tax cuts, and, that
would add $4 trillion to the deficit. you said at the beginning, the first issue you mentioned was the national debt, if you are so concerned about the national debt, how will you pay for a $4 trillion loss of revenue from the tax cuts. >> first you look at whose money it is. it is the people's money, who earned the money and give us some to pay tax and i'm not seeing it as a cost to government but i will immediately introduce bills to reduce spending and i think we should offset it and i'm not opposed to introducing bills to -- >> no way you'll get $4 trillion by spending cuts. >> we'll introduce legislation that will reduces spending, i will introduce legislation that will balance the budget and we want a balanced budget amendment introduced if i'm elected and we'll have a balanced budget that will be introduced if i'm elected and what i would say about the bush tax cuts is that businesses made calculations, on these for five or ten years. and business needs predictability, if you take away these bush tax cuts, if you allow obama to have the largest
tax increase in our history, it will be a disaster to the economy and i'm glad jack changed his position on this. >> chris: okay. >> it will help -- >> let me ask you both, because, everybody likes to say, well, we have to get the spending down and then, people don't want to talk specifically about what they wanted to do. no question, if you want to get serious, i'm directing it to both of you, about the national debt, you have to do something about entitlements. i wants to give you both a channe chance, before the election, tell me a single benefit you would reduce, eligibility you would change, tax you would increase on social security or medicare, to deal with the entitlement crisis. >> let me -- i am the one that has been more specific in this particular area. dr. paul talks about that, and, having a budget balanced all the way, and, to do what he wants to do is a 40% cut and take the average social security benefit from $1100 to $700. if you go to my web site, at
jackconway.org i am specific, it was wrong during the health care debate to take pharma out of it, and medicare should be able to negotiate for prices, saving -- >> president obama and the democrats tried to do it and the drug companies -- >> would be the first bill i didn't du-- i introduce when i to the senate and there's a lot of fraud in the system, $100 billion in fraud and you do not need to be handling it out of washington and the bureaucracy, what i have done as attorney general is take on medicaid fraud -- >> are you willing to reduce the benefit. >> one more thing, we need to end the offshore tax loopholes, a pay as you go system and a bipartisan debt commission to come back with recommendations. >> chris: dr. paul, anything specific, you are willing to say, i will change entitlements this way. >> you don't do anything to people who are currently receiving medicare, social security but we do have to admit that with the baby boom generation getting ready to retire, we'll double the amount of retirees and to put or head
in the sand and say we will keep borrowing more money will not work. there will have to be changes. >> chris: be specific. >> for the younger generation there will be changes in eligibility and they've -- >> you would raise the retirement age. >> there may have to be for younger people, yes, younger people, longevity is out there, the average life expectancy in the 30s was 65. >> chris: talking about higher sdoib deductibles. people 55 or younger. >> you have to have eligibility changes for younger people and if they are honest and will admit and have an adult discussion and not demagogue the issue, people will have to do that. >> chris: let's talk about health care reform. you did at the start of the debate. dr. paul you say you want to repeal obamacare and replace it with what you call, market driven principles. what -- more than 600,000, you said, earlier, attorney general, 650,000 people in kentucky are uninsured and how will they get
comfortable under your plan. >> there are two aspects to health care problems and one is expense and one is access. we had 45 million people nationwide that were not receiving or didn't have health insurance, a third of them made more than $50,000 a year and weren't getting it because of the expense and we didn't address that and it doesn't fix that problem, a third of them were poor, and were eligible for medicaid but not receiving medicaid because they were not going down and filling out the paperwork. but, a third of them were in the country illegally and were illegal aliens and we shouldn't give them health insurance and that is what president obama's bill does. >> chris: no, no, that is not true, sure, they are not covered by obamacare. >> but it is illegal to and if they are illegal and the thing is, it is a "catch-22," they said the republicans kept introducing an amendment to obamacare to say, you can ask if they are illegal aliens and democrats september shooting it down, saying no you can't -- >> i want to bring the attorney general in here. you support it. president obama's health care reform plan. now premiums are going up,
according to studies, millions of americans won't be able to keep their coverage and spending, total national spending, according to studies is projected to go up $300 billion over the next decade, that is fixing the problem. >> not necessarily, it needs to be improved upon and, that is the difference between myself and rand. i want to try and improve upon it and talked about $200 billion in savings. for medicare purchasing and that needs to be implemented. we need to find ways to control costs. but, you know, preexisting conditions. people shouldn't be denied because they have one. 19,000 kentucky kids staying on insurance as a result of changes to the law. 45,000 small businesses getting assistance, with premiums, those are good things, he wants repeal that and i have a friend, and she's a retired bank teller, she's on a fixed income and can't afford a $2,000 deductible in medicare, that is not an option for her and not one for
me if i go to the u.s. senate. these will have to be fixed, we'll have to watch the costs, it is an access bill and we'll have to -- >> let's turn to the issue of illegal drugs. which you both referenced earlier. which has become an issue, in this campaign, dr. paul, in august, you said this about drug abuse in kentucky and let's put it on the screen. i don't think it is a real pressing issue. you also said, drug enforcement should be funded at the state level, but, what about operation united, a federal program which spent $16 million over the last two years to fight drug abuse in the state of kentucky. would you shut that down. >> as a physician, i am concerned about drug abuse, and, when they quoted me, actually it was a misquote and what i said was, i don't think people are as concerned about where the funding comes from, they want the problem to be tackled and there's always a debate between how much is federal and how much is state. all i said is, that like most problems i think the more local
control the better. the more the decisions are made, by sheriffs and local communities, the better chance we have of fixing the problems. >> chris: kentucky congressman... $16 million, last two years, a drug problem in kentucky, will you say, no, i don't want that money. >> no, but i would say, here's the problem. chief law enforcement officer of kentucky wants to talk about drugs all the time, under his watch the meth labs have doubled in the state. from the state police, meth labs doubled, he's been out of the state 20 days of the last month, campaigning in california and raising cash and he needs to be in the state talking about and trying to do something about neth labs, theys are worse since you became attorney general. >> rand paul will do anything to keep from talking about the drug issue. what happened is we have gotten better at identifying -- called shake and bake labs, we are finding more of them and that is where the statistics come from and it is another example where he doesn't get kentucky and our
farm economy and drugs are a pressing issue. chris i have had mothers crying on my shoulders because their daughters overdosed from oxycontin, i get it is a pressing issue and seen it firsthand and worked -- >> i have -- >> i have work with -- >> since you became attorney general. >> oxycontin is down -- >> drug abuse is up. >> chris: attorney general i want to ask you about this. you have gone after dr. paul on this issue. when you campaigned for attorney general you said you would set up a drug task force. it took you a year-and-a-half to do that. and, at least according to our statistics, the number of meth labs in the state increased during that time on your watch, 60%. >> i said i would create a prescription bill task force and you get into office and work with your counterparts and involved in an investigation that is going to lead to the largest prescription pill bust in the state's history, operation flamingo road you cannot jump in front of a microphone, and that is what we did and meth labs are different and we need to look at them in terms of precursors, coming from out of state and the labs
changed chris over the last few years and are not all fixed. they are mobile and, they are shake and break operations, and the ksp has the hazmat capability to do the meth stuff and i have been focused on drugs from day one and rand paul thinks they are not a pressing issue. and he thinks no federal -- the local governments cannot do this on their own, it is all fine to say -- >> i want you to respond. >> here's the problem, if he's concerned about the drug issue, he has been in california, 14 of the last 20 working days, not in the state, working on our problems. he's been out of state, trying to troll for cash. >> chris: finally i want to get to ask both of you about your view of what your role as a senator, one will be going to washington in january, and what your view of your role as senator would be. attorney general conway you signed the policy platforms of moveon.org and the liberal web site, daly cove, supporting union card check, repeal of don't ask, don't tell and you
are open to a government-run plan for health care. so-called public option. fair to say that you would in washington actually be to the left of president obama and if elected and he's elected, would you support harry reid for senate republican -- democratic leader. >> well, i me, harry reid is in his own race now, i like him and when i go to washington i'll vote for the leader that will do best by the commonwealth of kentucky, i'm a democrat and a proud democrat and i will not be to the left of barack obama. i'll put kentucky first. i will put kentucky first and the reason, i said that on the don't ask, don't tell, it was painful for kentuckians to see rand paul go on national tv and question fundamental provision of the civil rights act and to hear him speaking out against the americans with disabilities act and wondering what he'd say to veterans and i will be someone who goes up there and puts kentucky first and understands the state and tries to create jobs of the future with a tax credit and look at trade deals, we have lost
100,000 manufacturing jobs and who looks out for national security. because we have a lot of soldiers senate state and i will not go up there like rand paul said, it's not a security threat to the u.s., if iran has a nuclear weapon. i'm always going to put kentucky first and will be mindful of where i come from. >> dr. paul, you talk about helping start a tea party caucus in the senate and fair to say you would line up to the right of most senate republicans and to clear up confusion, with your answers over the course of the campaign, would you support kentucky's mitch mcconnell for senate precipitation leader rep >> i think mitch mcconnell will be the leader and hopefully the majority leader. >> chris: and you will support him, vote for him. >> yes. >> chris: not jim demint, no one else. >> right. what we are having is a caucus meeting and decide and i'll vote for whoever comes out of the caucus as the republican leader. absolutely and i presume that
will be senator mcconnell, what i said is to help kentucky we ned to leave more money in kentucky, the schemes, obama care, a trillion dollars, the money is not free, we have to print at a the federal reserve or borrow it and we are getting to the point in the country where we'll have different problems if we don't seriously talk about reigning in the size and scope of the federal government. >> chris: we have a couple minutes left, take main and make a closing statement, summing up the debate and what you would like to say to kentucky voters. attorney general conway, you start. >> it is a tremendous honor to be running for wendell ford's senate seat and the seat once held by henry flag and i'm always going to be hindful kentuckians need someone fighting for them, up in washington, i think i fought for them as attorney general. i fought for them as attorney general by taking on pharmaceutical companies that gouged us and medicaid fraud collections are up 600% and i understand the understands are a
pressing issue and will work in a bipartisan fashion to be sure we get the assistance we need to curb drug use in this state. i'll be focused on being an independent voice for kentucky and we'll have a home town tax credit, provide incentives to the private sector and try and create jobs and we will be focused like a laser on getting kentucky back to work again and there is a choice in the election, a choice between someone who will put kentucky first and someone who thinks we don't need any safety regulation and workplace safety regulation. who does not think we need and americans with disabilities act and thinks medicare we need a $2,000 deductible. >> chris: time. >> and i'm going to put kentucky first. >> i didn't know it was wendell ford's seat, i thought it was kentucky's seat. the bipartisan nature of this has to be approaching the debt. republicans failed us on dhet and so have democrats, and i will reach across this aisle and say we have to reduce spending, it's not a revenue problem, it
is a spending problem in washington. and i think we can do something about it but i think we need to do something about it before it is too late. >> chris: dr. paul, attorney general conway, we want to thank you both so much for coming in today, participating in this debate and answering our question, and answering each other's charges, and, safe travels during the final days of the campaign. >> thank you so much, chris. >> thank you. >> chris: up next we'll bring in our sunday regulars, live from d.c. to discuss the president's effort to energize the liberal base and conon
we need you to bring energy and passion and commitment! >> chris: president obama trying to rally his liberal base and recreate the magic of two years ago. it is time for our sunday regulars, who are back home in washington. brit hume, fox news senior political analyst and contributors, mara liasson of npr, bill kristol of "the weekly standard" and juan williams also from national public radio. president obama on the campaign trail, trying to fire up democrats, and trying to close the enthusiasm gap, the republicans have enjoyed as they approach the midterms and it was also a big rally of liberals, progressive groups on the national mall yesterday, in the wake of the glenn beck rally, tens of thousands of people attended, i think organized at 17 -- organizers said 175,000 and we have two side by side pictures and it appears to our untrained eye, while it was a
good sized crowd and considerably smaller than glenn beck's rally, there are signs, in the polls, that congratulations are beginning to come home. >> there are a fewer chris, but the general atmosphere and the general landscape of the race, really has not changed. and, when congress went home this week without acting on the tax cuts now facing every american, every, single american who pays income taxes, is now facing a tax increase, in the midst of an economic downturn, that has not abated to the point of helping people who are looking for jobs. i think that will deepen that difficulty the democrats face and while i think the president is shrewd and smart to try and rally the base and you saw him at his fiery best in the sound bite i have a question as to whether he'll succeed in doing so and the other problem i think he faces is there are not as many democrats, this time around. as there were the last time. >> chris: mara, we'll get to the
question of congress, leaving town with unfinished business in a minute. your sense of whether or not the president is succeeding in energizing the base, trying to close the enthusiasm gap. >> first, there is no hard evidence, he has had one to have four planned rallies, and you can't say, he left wisconsin and the race looks better, but the democrats on the hill want him to do that and believe he's important to bring democrats home and rally the base and the white house thinks it is a good use of his time and we'll see over the next couple of weeks if the races tighten up. now, it is true in some races like california, barbara boxer looks better than she did but other places like west virginia or wisconsin or connecticut things look worse and is hard to point to hard evidence but the democrats have -- are wagering $50 million that they can get back just enough of those
first-time obama surge voters, young people, african-american voters who came out in 2008, get just enough of them back that they can save enough vulnerable democrats, to keep ahold of congress. >> chris: bill, i want to pick up on that. i talked to a very plugs in, very loyal republican this week, who surprised me, he said he thinks the g.o.p. may now fall short of taking back the house and he said that the democrats take advantage and money is beginning to work as mara said in some of these marginal house seats and the democrats negative ads, have done a lot of opposition research on personal and business issues, are starting to have effect in a bunch of districts and my question is, have we -- all of us in the media, been pre-ma tour in declaring or presuming a republican victory in the house, in november? >> no one should be -- should presume anything, we have a month to go and a lot of races will move one direction or another. i -- the democrats had a tiny
come back, because they have had more money and they have gone up on the air, and, republican challengers have been hoarding their money to use in october and they are attacking the personal qualification of republican challengers who are not well-known and it tightened a few races, and a couple of federal races but the bigger picture remains bad for democrats and, republicans are 4-1 to win the house and will win it comfortably, actually and i think the last couple weeks the race could expand out again and the typical pattern in big wave elections is the party that will benefit from the wave, establishes a lead and there's a bit of a come back, bear market rally by the other party late september and early october and saw that in 1994 and in '06 when the money kicks in and the last three weeks of the election the money will be even and republicans will be on the air against the democrats and i think voters will focus hard on what they want and the message they want to send and i think that is they want a republican congress to check president obama and to repudiate what the
democrats have done and i think they'll get one. >> chris: juan, let's got to the issue brit brought up, the fact that democrats adjourned both the house and the senate this week to go back in campaign, until the election, without passing a budget, without extending the bush tax cuts. that got both sides pointing fingers. let's watch. >> the party of no adopted a political strategy of obstructionism and now claims that there is not anything happening in the congress and the facts belie their assertion. >> look at how the 111th congress is so much -- not so much concluding as much as it has collapsed. >> chris: whether or not do you think has the better side of the argument. >> the republicans have been dominating the argument for some time by making it out as somehow the democrats want to raise your tax by not extending the bush tax cuts and what we see on the
ground i think is contradicting what we heard from congressman boehner, because, even when he said he was willing to compromise with president obama in terms of going ahead with the tax cuts for i guess, 97, 98% of americans who make less than 250,000, he was immediately accused of capitulating by other republicans who said, hold the hard line, we have to have the additional tax cuts so that 1.5 or whatever percent of americans and i mean, that has become the narrative and so, nancy pelosi, i saw her on friday and she said she thought he could have won the vote even though there were several democrats, i think 30-plus who said they wanted to extend the tax cuts for everyone, she thought he could have won it by actually getting republican votes. >> then why didn't she take the vote. >> because, if you will give me a moment. >> a moment. >> give the republicans another chance to misrepresent it, because republicans are out
there making the case... >> the speaker of the house, presiding over this massive majority, has the votes she says to win on this issue, and, send her members home, having voted to stave off the tax cuts, and she was afraid of what the minority republicans were going to say about it? do you seriously believe that. >> if they stave off tax cuts for everyone, that is a distortion. >> tax increase. >> the fact is, this week, i was in new york at an event and i chatted with four republicans and i said how this is tax debate going and they said until now it is the traditional debate, democrats want to cut tax to the middle class and republicans say don't raise any tax in a recession and it was probably a wash, politically, all of them and maybe they are wrong but all of them were happy, this is the day after the nancy pelosi adjourned the house without allowing a vote, without allowing the vote on the coming tax increases.
every republican challenger can now say you have been in charge two years and could have dealt with this and cut the deals you needed to, to do as juan said to bring over the moderate republicans and you didn't and every american now faces the tax increase in january, thanks to the democratic congress, doing nothing. >> chris: i want to get mara into this discussion. because, i mean, that this is issue. i think republicans are going to make, when they come back for the lame duck in november, they will not be able to say at that moment what -- tell americans what their tax will be on income, dividends, on inheritance, on capital gains, a month-and-a-half away. >> the problem is they might get a deal, temporary extension or whatever in the lame duck and the problem is every democrat has to go home without saying i voted to continue lower taxes for the middle class, i do think the white house and the democrats overestimated how strong their argument was going to be and how easy it would be
to keep the democrats on one page on this. and i think if they had all the democrats they would have brought it up for a vote and the argument is republicans are hodel the middle class tax cuts hostage to continuing the tax cuts for the rich and the problem is, if you don't have a vote and show them holding it hostage, how do you know they really are. >> but, my point, mara is, look, i just think -- >> juan, juan... >> you have to be -- >> juan! >> the republicans have been the ones blocking. >> chris: juan... >> they don't have a -- >> all right, juan, you can continue talking during the commercial, we'll take a break here, but, up next, big changes at the white house, this week, will president obama use chief of staff rahm emanuel's departure to change the way he governs? we'll get the panel's take on that, as fox news sunday continues from louisville, and washington. back in a moment.
>> i want to thank you for being the toughest leader and the country to ask for in the toughest times, any president has ever faced. [applause]. >> chris: i suppose one would put abraham lincoln for george washington into that mix, but in any case, that was rahm emanuel ending his time as white house chief of staff, and heaping praise on his now former boss and we're back now from louisville, and washington. with our panel, before we get to rahm emanuel. let's talk about the choice the president now faces. it seems clear he's going to encounter very different circumstances in washington, after the election with either a much smaller democratic majority in the house and senate or possibly republican control of one or both houses. brit, let me start with you. does he move to the center like bill clinton did in 1995 or should he tstay on the left and engage in partisan war fare for
the next two years. >> i don't think we know. he would be -- if the election turns out as it appears, overwhelmingly likely to, a pretty clear sign, don't keep doing what you are doing, it becomes a definition of insanity. my question, though, is, will he be able and intellectually willing as bill clinton was, to move to the center, bill clinton did that decisively and noticeably after the repudiation in 1994. this president is different. he didn't come from a southern state where he had to be reelected or elected as a moderate, as bill clinton had and didn't -- he doesn't have a lot of experience as a moderate and talked like one during the campaign two years ago, but he's governed pretty much from the left. from the left part of the american mainstream and my sense about it is that i don't think this new interim chief of staff, pete rouse, someone that can be counted on to tug him to the insert of way, say as dick
morris did with bill clinton after the election of '08. >> chris: mara, if he decided to move to the center, and follow the clinton model, and i think a lot of us agree, pete rouse might not be the guy, who would be a good chief of staff? should he go outside and what do you think the chances are he'll follow the clinton model if he takes, you know, a whippin', a drubbing, as george w. bush called it in 2006, in the elections of november. >> i think -- i can tell you on good authority at the whose they totally reject the idea that he would adopt the clinton model and move to the center. now, that being said, everything is going to change in november. even if democrats are taking control they will be a smaller number of democrats and there will be -- they'll be more liberal proportionately and there will be a larger number of republicans and they'll be more conservative, relatively and there will be fewer people in the middle to make the deals he might want to and having said that he'll have to acknowledge in some way whether the choice
of the new chief of staff or something he says that he got the message of the election and will have to explain what he thinks it is. and, then, when you look forward at all of the issues he's going to deal with i don't think it is simple as just staying on the left or moving to the center the issues coming up are not health care, the stimulus, the bailouts, they are deficit reduction which by definition, has to have bipartisan support to work, and the commission in december is talking about a formula of something like three times as many spending cuts, to one tax increase, so maybe he could find a way to craft some bipartisan deals. >> let me bring bill kristol in. i was going to ask you exactly that. do you see areas of bipartisan agreement that this president and speaker boehner, presuming, could find areas of agreement, whether it is on the deficit, free trade is another area people talk about? >> i think it is possible.
i think the president has carefully gotten rid of the incredibly arrogant, cocky, smart alecs who dominated the white house the first term, rahm emanuel, larry summers, pete orszag, they knew best, they were so clever and never let a crisis go to waste and we can jam stuff through, no problem, and this president can carry it off, that is not pete rouse's attitude, he worked for tom daschle 19 years and, he's different in tone and governing philosophy from rahm emanuel and, it is interesting now they are accepting rahm emanuel's story, he always wanted to be mayor of chicago, and and you can never find a word about him being mayor of chicago until it became his lifelong ambition to give him a nice excuse for leaving the white house and i think republicans shouldn't underestimate president obama's willingness to get rid of people who he thinks may be, for all the good intentions, haven't served him well and is not
exactly pivoting to the center, governing in a different way than the first two years. >> chris: let me, juan, bring you in about rahm emanuel. because, you know, the original line is, and, bill quoted it, during the presidential transition, he said, never let a crisis go to waste. which meant, let's take advantage of the financial situation and pass big legislation. but, during the debate over health care, he wanted to go smaller, more incremental, and, keep the focus on the economy. so, my question is, who was rahm emanuel and what was his role, these last two years. >> well i think rahm emanuel really was the deal-maker, the guy sent up to capitol hill to twist arms and, you know, crack the whip and make sure that the democrats served the president then and this is interesting, the criticism from the left is he was far too willing to compromise and that is why you don't get the public option in health care and why you didn't get the level of spending that the left would have wanted in
terms of the stimulus and get the results they thought would have happened, if you had a greater input at that time. and, while you haven't seen the populous anger at wall street -- so the left thinks rahm emanuel was far too willing to compromise, now, i must say from the right, the idea is, you know what, rahm emanuel is a guy that, you know, will take no prisoners and rahm emanuel is a hard person to dole with in terms of getting phone calls, returned and all the rest. but, i think there is fear and intimidation is rahm emanuel's stock and trade and it is time to move on and the president feels that way and pete rouse, the president's confidant ands of described as much more of a low-key personality, willing to make deals, will do much better with both sides of the aisle. >> before we run out the clock here, chris, it is worth pointing out that rahm emanuel as juan did, is not popular on the left. in fact, if the president were trying to make peace with the
left, one of the things he could have done was to get rid of rahm emanuel. it wasn't the first time i heard that rahm emanuel want to be mayor of chicago. i heard that for a long time. and what is more, you see some of the people who are still around, larry summers is gone, but david axelrod is around and will be until he takes off to run the campaign, robert gibbs is still present, and i question whether there is anything that is really at the core of the obama white house that has changed. >> chris: 30 second left, brit, you think this is still a liberal, progressive, whatever, left wing presidency in the white house. >> he still has the opportunities, chris. after the election, pete rouse is named as an interim, and he could be named the permanent but, new chief of staff but the president wants to make' change and still has plenty of opportunity to do that before the new congress is sworn in. i say, well, i don't see it yet. >> chris: all right, panel, thank you so much. we'll see you next week and don't forget to check out this
>> chris: with 30 days until the mid terminal elections, the president tried to light a fire under democrats. congress left town to campaign, with important business, left undone, and, both sides are trying to define what republicans will do if they regain power, you don't have to be in louisville to say we're now in the home stretch, on the trail. >> we cannot sit this one out. we can't let the country fall
backwards, because the rest of us didn't care enough to fight. >> the -- it is time to buck up here, and -- but not yield the playing field, for those folks who are against everything that we stand for in terms of the initiatives we put forward . >> weitz whets we do it today or we do it, six weeks from today, there will be no tax increase, for middle class americans. >> he's been in washington for decades. and, he knows how tow game work and created the game and he has taken millions from special interest. and, now, john boehner wants to talk about reforming congress? [laughter]. >> that is funny! >> the house finds itself in a state of emergency, and the institution does not function, does not deliberate, and, seems incapable of acting on the will of the american people.
>> it is fair to say we could not have accomplished when we have accomplished about the his leadership. >> my temperate is sometimes a bit different than yours, mr. president, i'm sure you learned words that you have never heard before. mr. president, thank you. and thank you all, i look forward to seeing you in chicago. [applause]. >> chris: and we'll be right back, with some final thoughts.