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tv   Americas News Headquarters  FOX News  September 29, 2012 6:00pm-7:00pm EDT

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>> rick: welcome to a new hour inside america's election headquarters. >> arthel: topping the news brewing battle in washington the white house under fire overmixed messages into the investigation over the libya consulate attack. >> rick: new may be casting a shadow over president obama's reelection bid. young voters lessen enthusiastic now. our panel will weigh in. >> arthel: living large. luxury cars that you dream about are here, look at 'em. consumers reports rating.
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>> rick: let's start with politics and the vice president biden and republican vice presidential paul ryan b to talk in the important battleground state of ohio making his way here from a campaign vent in new hampshire today. busy weekend for the congressman, followed up by appearance tomorrow on fox news sunday with chris wallace. meantime, vice president biden attending an event in florida, talked about medicare, sailing that he and the president have strengthed the program and extended its life. >> arthel: as the campaigns crisscross key battleground states voter registration problems widening. questionable forms, eric shawn
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live in new york city with more. >> reporter: remember voter registration fraud was a huge scandal in tate. it helped lead to the demise of acorn. now suspected fraud has hit again this time connected to a republican connected-firm, 10 florida counties now reporting possible problems. the company strategic allied consulting was hired in five battleground states now fired by the republican national committee and several state parties after over 100 suspect signatures showed up in palm beach county, florida. the company blames onely i out of more than 2,000. saying in part, we were able to identify that the cards in question were all the work of one individual. >> reporter: the supervisor of elections who runs elections
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in orlando tells us voter registration fraud is a danger. >> any time that this occurs, it attacks the credibility of the entire process. when anyone does something to attack the credibility of a process that i hold so dear, i absolutely hope there's a full prosecution of people doing things outside the boundaries of the law. when you prosecute them, they won't do it again. >> reporter: that's what happened in the acorn scandal, dozens of workers prosecuted, acorn pled guilty in -- in nevada. now suspected fake signatures in indian nan on the ts that put president obama and hillary clinton and the 2008 ballot. voters said they never signed those positions, four democratic answer election officials indicted they face trial this coming january. as for the florida forums, the worker who allegedly submied
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them says he did nothing wrong and says he may have been hoodwinked by people jokingly giving wrong information. he also says he registered drunks at bars. if you suspect voter fraud or election problems where you live: >> thank you eric. >> rick: new s in a tough race oust florida, rang congressman west unveiled new attack ad, featuring his opponent's mugshot. peter doocy has more. >> reporter: the incumbent in the race for the see the in the 18th district lt. colonel allen west, a republican is trying give voters a clear choice, called one of the most devastating contrast ads. >> february 16th, 2003 fort hood, texas colonel west just received deployment
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orders and prepares his men to go to war. that night miami, patrick murphy thrown out of a club for fighting covered in alcohol, unable to stan. >> reporter: murphy campaign defending their candidate. by shining a light on an incident where west shot a gun near the head of an iraqi he was interrogating he was fined $5,000 before being allowed to retire with full benefits. murphy camp's take is west is attacking murphy for a mistake he made as a teenager. >> reporter: internal poll taken this week puts congressman west ahead by 11, 52-41. last month a poll had the two virtually tied.
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murphy 47, west 46. it is close, rick. >> rick: peter, thanks. >> arthel: new fallout over the obama administration's changing explanations for the deadly attack on our consulate in libya. almost two weeks ago, u.s. ambassador to the u.n. susan rice claimed the assault was a spontaneous outburst of violence. u.s. officials now admit i was a coordinated terrorist tack. today a leading lawmaker calling on ambassador rice to resign. molly henneberg, who wants the ambassador to step down? >> reporter: it is congressman peter king, the republican chairman of the house homeland security committee, the first lawmaker to call for ambassador rice's resignation. he wants to know why she went on sunday talk shows, five days after the attack and said it was a spontaneous event even though king says there was circumstantial evidence that it was a terror attack.
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>> entire administration has handled this wrong from the start misinformed the american people, misinformed the world she was our representative to the world. supposedly explaining what happened. everything she said was wrong. the administration is now trying to cover it by saying she was given the best information they had available at the time. >> reporter: a state department spokesperson says ambassador rice made it clear when she was discussing the act tack that killed ambassador stevens and three other americans that the investigation was still going on. >> arthel: the question is, was it the best information they had, at that time? >> reporter: that's what the obama administration and the state department say. sources tell fox news, intelligence officials knew within one day that it was a coordinated terror attack, likely tied to al-qaeda. a special person for director of national intelligence, says the u.s. is understanding of the event continues to evolve. it went on to stay in a statement:
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>> reporter: it is unclear when that assessment changed. >> arthel: molly, thank you. >> rick: governor mitt romney slamming the president on foreign policy in his weekly pod cast he blames the president for failing to take a more aggressive roll over cease. >>. >> -- aggressive roll over cease. >> that places our friends and allies at the mercy event dan those who do us harm. in a time of testing an american president must show strong leadership. dangerous world, we can't
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allow indifference to undermine security. only strength and clarity can keep the peace. when i'm president, i'll reverse president obama's defense cuts. i'll call terrorism what it is. i will never abdicate american leadership. and i will never apologize for america. >> rick: governor romney focusing on the turmoil in the mideast taking the president to task for apparently not showing enough american leadership. >> arthel: new protests in the muslim world, thousands taking to the streets of pakistan's largest city. rally against an anti-islam film led for a radical muslim scholar calling for international law mack making it illegal for anyone to denigrate any religious prophet in iran students descending on the capital city holding copies of the qur'an and chanting death to britain, death to america. >> rick: the u.s. embassy in cairo issuing new warning this egypt saying the embassy has
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credible information suggesting terrorist interests in targeting u.s. female missionaries in egypt. according, u.s. citizens should exercise vigilance taking necessary caution to maintain their security. embassy urging all travelers to maintain valid documents and enroll in the state department's smart travel program. >> arthel: iranian government slamming the obama administration for taking ago iranian militant group off the u.s. terrorism list, the group began as a guerrilla movement during the iranian revolution and fought along side saddam hussein's forces in the 80s dismantled after the united states led invasion in 2003. the state department says mek has not committed an act of terror for than a decade iran claim the u.s. is using the group to work against its government. >> rick: tracking severe weather hitting texas. heavy rain and risk of
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dangerous flash flooding will spread across a large part of that state today. some areas could see as much as six inches of rain, a lot . forcasters say large amounts of moisture are coming from the gulf of mexico and from storms in the pacific and warn the downpours could last all weekend, into monday. >> arthel: all right football fans, rejoice! nfl referee lockout over. refs approving new eight year deal with the league, ending the three-month ordeal. both sides quickly reaching agreement after replacement refs drew complaints from fans and even president obama. the new contract passing 112-5 today. >> rick: bipartisan outrage when it came to the refs. no matter what your politics. >> next, anger in the streets of europe today. why thousands say they are fed
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up and what they want done about it, coming up. >> arthel: could there be an enthusiasm gap from young people this election? we'll tell you whatcom pains are doing about it, that is coming up as well. >> young people like so many of you here, you all have always given barack's campaigns with your passion and your energy, gosh you guys are good. [ chiefing ] >> this president's policies have not worked for the young peep of america. one more thing that is not only will they have a hard time finding a job, giving the economy this president has produced. not only will they have a nil father that is becoming devastated in the words of the secretary of defense, devastated by these defense cuts. they will also have hundreds of well -- thousands and thousands of dollars of debt on their shoulders. at usaa, we believe honor is not exclusive to the military, and commitment is not limited to one's military oath. the same set of values that drive our nation's military
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>> rick: cummins away from congressman ryan, who is about to take the stage in the battleground state of ohio. that's john kasich the governor there. the congressman will be speaking we'll bring you some of his remarks when he takes the podium.
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quick check on headlines in spain and portugal, tens of thousands taking to the streets in madrid venting anger against tax hikes and government spending cuts. in lisbon, they rallied against similar austerity p libyans handing over weapons after a call from the government the request was promoted on a private tv station earlier this month but may have gained traction in the wake of the u.s. consulate tack. >> last western detainee held at gitmo transported home to canada, 26-year-old was captured in afghanistan in 2002, sentenced to eight years, he will serve out the remainder of his time at maximum security in ontario. >> arthel: possible new concerns for president obama's reelection team. new numbers show hopes that young people would gain enthusiasm for this year's
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election are fading. according to the pew research center the number of 18 to 29-year-old registered voters dropped 11 percentage points since the last election and dipped to well below what it was during the 2004 election. the youth vote a big part of president obama's drive in 2008. will this impact the race for the white house? bringing in former communications director for illinois congressman and former speaker of the house. a a member of the democratic national committee and former chair of al gore's campaign during the 2000 election. hello pwoflgt you. we are standing by for -- remarks from congressman paul ryan when that comes in we go to that and then get back us to. this topic, the romney campaign numbers we are talking about. should the numbers indicate
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cause for president obama's camp in celebration for the romney campaign or should that needle fall in the middle? why does it seem that the young voters seem to be disgauged this time? debbie? >> actually f you dig into the study , you will find the place for most concern is in the governor romney champ. it -- camp. it shows he's very unpopular with young people and moderate republicans are becoming very dis-- disingauged. the obama camp knows it has to win in getting people to vote, voter registration is stronger than it was in 2008. it has a strong ground game they are on the go in the early vetting states. they've always known they are going to have less money than the romney campaign does, but they have a very strong ground game going. >> arthel: ron, how do you see it? >> the way i see it a little
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opposite of that. i think young voters voted for president obama because they believed in the promise of hope and change. now they are walking away from the president without any hope. if you look, these young people were promised jobs, higher incomes, lower cost student loans and they are not getting those things. you have an 8.3% unemployment. you've got higher school tuition loans. really bad job market. the people who believed that president obama going to bring all this change to washington, one thing that he did get is they are allowed to stay on their parents' health insurance until they are 26-years-old so they can live in their parents' basement and not have a job. >> arthel: let's take a look at another pew research poll, showing registered voters who plan to vote. 18 to 29, 72% in 2008.
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this year that has dipped to 63%. 30 to 49, 84% in 2008 said they definitely would vote now 83%, that last number, 65 plus age group, 87% said they were planning to vote in 2008 that has jumped to 91%. which is romney, that is romney's strongest age demographic. debbie, let's talk about this. how much stock do the campaigns put into polls, especially this close toe election day? how reliable are those polls when you factor in access to varied demographics? do voters pay attention to these polls? >> i have a theory on polling. i'm gonna get my doctorate some day and write it on this. polls are a snapshot in time, there are so many polls, and they drive things they should not drive. both campaigns have sophisticated people that know
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how to read polling and take it into account. some let it drive the news media, sometimes it drives fundraising in a way it shouldn't. the fact of the matter is, it is a snapshot in time. i keep reminding people of two elections one was michigan in 1990. the free press detroit news had polls taken out on governor ambulance char's campaign -- governor blanch's campaign, he lost. >> arthel: ron how important are the polls do voters pay attention? >> voters definitely pay attention to polls, they hear a lot about polls there's been a lot of media hype now it does matter for fundraising and it is a snapshot in time so it can be an indicator of which way the trend of the election is going on certain key messages that both
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candidates are trying to push. i don't want to put a lock, stock and barrel to every poll if you look over a trend line you can see patterns develop so they can adjust campaigns. >> arthel: you probably -- we are going final word and you did. debbie, if you get that doctorate, you will be dr. debbie gengel? >> at some point all going to be on polling. -- >> we'll check it out when it comes out. ron, thanks. >> thanks so much. >> rick: nice ring. >> all eyes will be on denver this coming wednesday night as president obama and governor romney face off in the first of three presidential debates. do debates really make a difference? what does each candidate need to do to come out the winner? that's coming up. i can't tell you how important it will be. i don't know what will happen. but i think it will be a good
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chance for the president and for me to have a conversation with the american people about our respective views. >> [ inaudible ] i'm looking forward to the debates, put it that way. well, if it isn't mr. margin. mr. margin? don't be modest, bob. you found a better way to pack a bowling ball. that was ups. and who called ups? you did, bob. i just asked a question. it takes a long time to pack a bowling ball. the last guy pitched more ball packers. but you... you consulted ups.
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you fod a better way. that's logistics. that's margin. find out what else ups knows. i'll do that. you're on a roll. that's funny. i wasn't being funny, bob. i know. seems they haven't been moving much lately. but things are starting to turn around because of business people like you. and regions is here to help. with the experience and service to keep things rolling. from business loans to cash management, we want to be your partner moving forward. so switch to regions. and let's get going. together.
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>> rick: here are top headlines: last western detainee held at guantanamo bay has returned home to canada. the 26-year-old arrived at the military base on a u.s. government plane today. he will finish out his eight year sentence at a maximum security prison in ontario, can new york congressman peter king is calling for the resignation of the u.s. ambassador to the u.n.. saying susan rice should pay the price for failing to initially describe the tax on our consulate in libya as terrorism. >> japan's industry minister
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urging his government to phase out nuclear energy program, well before the 2040 deadline. last year, japan experienced a massive nuclear meltdown after being struck by a devastating quake and tsunami. >> arthel: new charges could be filed against the chemist at the center of a massachusetts crime lab investigation. annie dookhan is accused of falsifying evidence at the now closed facility potentially putting thousands of cases in jeopardy. molly line is live from our newsroom with more. >> reporter: this is a scandal that can affect more than 1,000 inmates currently serving time in massachusetts for drug-related crimes and more people convicted in the past. a state lab chemist accused of not just faulty work but mixing samples, not testing others and forging paperwork. prosecutors state deception has gone on for years.
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34-year-old dookhan was arrested friday charged with obstruction of justice and falsely pretending to hold a degree. more than a dozen released as prosecutors and defense attorneys struggle to assess the damage. in the wake of the investigation the lab in boston was shutdown and the public health commissioner resigned. the allegations investigators say dookhan lied about drug samples from a march 2011 case and testified under oath in the summer of 2010 that she had an advanced degree from the university of massachusetts. the school has no record of her. co-workers started expressing concerns about dookhan's work years ago itch one red flag, she was most -- productive on staff, fellow techs tested 50 to 150 samples she would routinely test more than 500. state police say dookhan tested more than 60,000 samples, involving 34,000 defendants during her nine years at the lab. >> annie dookhan's actions
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corrupted the integrity of the entire criminal justice system and there are many victims as a result, first the defendants who when charged in a criminal justice system have the right to expect they will be given due process. >> reporter: if convicted of the current charges dookhan faces up to 20 years in prison the attorney general has not ruled out the possibility of more charges to come. as for more motive as far as prosecutors can dell dookhan wanted to be seen as effective worker. >> arthel: what happens to the victims now? >> reporter: there's a rolling impact. >> arthel: molly line thank you. >> rick: open enrollment just around the corner a time when employees can sign up for health insurance through their jobs. this year is a little different with consumer directed plans becoming more popular. how do you know if one is right for you? founder and managing partner of harrington capital management, good to see you
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kyle. how would you define a consumer decked health plan? >> it puts a little more power in the consumer. the employee has the ain't to select one of these -- has theability to select one of these plans in which their deductible will be higher and the premiums lower. for example, for someone like myself fortunate enough to have their health and is proactive about protecting and preserving their health, you can have a lower premium with a higher deductible because i don't have a lo lot of visits to the doctor therefore, i keep premiums lower. if something catastrophic happens, my deductible will be higher but i'm betting i can preserve and protect my monies better. >> rick: lower out-of-pocket expenses with lower premiums, as long as you are healthy. >> as long as you are healthy. premiums are lower but the deductible can be $3,000 to
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$6,000 before you have the insurance company participate in their end of the bargain. now, if you have good health, it makes sense. it is -- it basically pits new a position to sit down during this open enrollment period and figure out where you are in the health process, as well as if in fact you exercise and if in fact, you go in and are proactive about diet and your health. >> rick: do we have a sense of how many employers who offer health insurance, have this kind of an option for folks? >> interesting, these plans have been growing. historically, it was 5% of people that were covered by health care, i think it was 2007 would participate in these plans that would be coupled with a health savings account where could you put money aside tax deductible for yourself and use that toward health care costs. now it has moved up to 17% range where people now have
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decided to use these self-directed plans. >> rick: obamacare, a lot of people were afraid or warning if it went into effect a lot of these big companies with a lot of workers were going to drop employee health care plans is that happening? >> what has happened in lieu of that is now instead of the employer paying 100% of your health care they've moved it to where you are responsible for 50% and they are responsible for 50%. >> rick: open enrollment, people can make a decision for themselves and families. give me the number one or two top two questions you have to ask as you are deciding what is best for . >> how is your current health look at your genetics whether or not you have big diseases within in your family, history of high blood pressure, diabetes, heart problems and then a make decision whether or not you want to use one of these two plans. >> rick: you can have your health and walk out of your house and get height -- get hit by a car if you have a
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deductible in the thousands you are looking at out-of-pocket expenses that would have been covered if you chose a different plan. >> true. >> rick: kyle harrington, thank you. good to see you. >> arthel: based in san diego. thanks kyle. president obama and governor romney both hoping for a game-changing moment in next week's debate. here's one of the most famous debate responds of all time, then governor ronald reagan and president jimmy carter. will we see a similar moment this time around? >> governor reagan again, typically is against such a proposal. >> governor, there you go again. ♪ leaving my homeland ♪ pling a lone hand ♪ my life begins today ♪ ♪ fly by night away from here ♪ ♪ change my life again ♪
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>> rick: both presidential campaigns playing the expectations' game in the run-up to the critical debate next week.
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here's governor romney with praise for president obama's communication skills. he's trying to fool people into thinking that i think things i don't. that ends i think during the debates. i can't tell you winning and losing. he's president, very effective speaker. >> rick: on the "today" show this week president obama's senior campaign adviser axelrod saying we know governor romney has been practice -- practicing for months. >> rick: susan estrich is a professor of law and political science, fox news contributor. i love watching both sigh tries raise the bar for the opponent. kind of like a joke, isn't it susan? >> it is a pretty good joke. look, bottle of these guys are running for -- both of these guys are running for president. i think voters have a right to
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have high expectations about both of them. this gameworks when you are in primaries and it is a long process and it is up and down. i don't think it works in debates, unless like the clip you just showed you have somebody like reagan, who had been constantly attacked that he was not ready, not capable. and the fact that he turned in a completely solid debate performance against a guy, carter who was not liked at all that won the floor fell out. ironly debate, the people who come in for -- usually the debates the people who come in for romney, will come out for romney the people who come out for obama will come out for obama unless there's a big mistake one way or another probably won't change much. >> rick: likely voters were asked certainty of their vote those who were supporters of president obama 93% said they were certain they were going
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to vote for him. five% of governor romney's -- 95% of governor romney's voters said there was nothing that was going to change mayor mind. so how important are these debates? >> they are important to a small sliver of people who may or may not watch. i joke with my students it is like me and the world series, to be honest i have no idea who is likely to be in the world series. but the game comes i will show up at somebody's house, have a drink and popcorn and pick a team. they are both aiming at this small sliver in the middle, who may or may not even be paying attention. >> rick: not going to be your red sox and not going to be my phillies as far as the world series is concerned, unfortunately for both of us. is there one cammarata pain for home these debates are more important? the mainstream media has been
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saying if romney doesn't have a knock-out punch in debate one, it is over for him? this storyline has been perpetuated. are the debates more important for governor romney and less important for the president, what do you think? >> i think certainly, in light of the 47% brouhaha and the like, romney has to come in and not make a mistake. but the idea that anything less than a homerun is a knockout that doesn't make any sense. as i say, most debates will come out with a margin, very similar to the fairly slim margin we are seeing now. so, that's the press paying the expectation game. i don't believe. >> rick: if the president on the flip side, the president has a bad night wednesday night or a bad couple nights over the course of these three debates, how much does it hurt him?
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incumbents in the past had a tough time in debate number one and they lived to serve another term. >> they have. i remember in 1984 being with mondale and if you recall, reagan ended the debate, he was taking some drive up the highway in california, and people were like, he never got anywhere. and the next morning the "wall street journal" and observe publications said for the first time maybe he's too old in the second debate who was so good at this, came in and got some question and he said i'm not going to make an issue of my opponent's age. and it was all over. he handled it. in 2004, i think it was, george bush had a little bit of a bad debate, the first one with kerry. it opened things up a little bit. by the end, we know who won. >> rick: it seems to a lot of conservatives that the media
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wants to=jt] call this thing for the president, already. and this year, more so than in any other presidential election year that the media bias against the republican candidate is worst than it has ever been before. i know you are not a conservative. from where you sit as you look at the coverage, you look at the way the media has perpetuated these story lines, how do you see it? >> you know, i don't know. romney has made a few mistakes, all right. i think if you are trying to get people to watch television or read our column, you focus on mistakes. it is a story. but i honestly think that particularly in presidential politics, people get a real view of the candidates. it is not governed by paid media and advertisements. it is really not governed by coverage. i think and i don't mean to insult anybody, at the end of the day what a lot of the
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yakers have to say, matters much less than the judgments people make themsves, watching debates, talking to friends, considering their own economic situation and for one, i don't think it is over. frankly, i think obama people saying it is over, don't help the president, because it introduces a kind of apathy, lack of organization, and taking it for granted that can really kill you in the end. >> rick: we have about a minute left, facts, a lot of the -- both are going to come out with a lot of things they are going to say as though they are factual. when in reality, if you do some of the research, you might find that in fact they are not. and the romney campaign has said governor romney is going to try to get the president to stick to the facts. for viewers who are going to be watching, who might not know all of the minutia about
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tax plans or about health care law, how much does that matter? the facts of the matter, how much does that play into it as posed to how somebody feels about the person they are listening to? >> i think it is both. i can promise you, there will be 50 people sitting in a romney room and 50 people sitting in an obama room, fact-checking every miniscule statement and e-mailing the press and putting out a press release after. my own view is, unless somebody makes a big mistake, who was it, ford who got communist country wrong. unless you make a real boner, these ma mu shah won't matter, it is more do i trust this guy? does he understand the problems of people like me? is he communicating? george bush once looked at his watch in a debate.
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that cost him more than any factual mistake. >> rick: susan estrich, always good to talk to you. read her column in newspapers all over the country, printed on wednesdays and fridays. take care enjoy watching the debates. harris faulkner and i will be anchoring's live coverage of the first presidential debate, wednesday night, coverage on begins at 8:30 p.m. eastern time, lots of ways to participate and chat with us, live during that show. let's go to the plaza where i know arthel, there are a few things a guy likes more than a beautiful woman and a beautiful car. >> arthel: flattery will get you everywhere. here's a fact this is a pretty ride but it costs a pretty penny. consumer reports is up next to tell us if it's worth it.
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>> rick: welcome back many almost time for the new models to roll out in show rooms new cars. folks of all budget kinds will be looking for deals then there are some who don't need to look for deals. if you win the lottery perhaps. we have two from consumer
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reports jake is here to tell us about. let's start with what is behind us. we can look at this gorgeous ride while you tell us about it. what is good about this car? >> it looks great. i was driving through times square, i've never had so many people come up to me and say what is that? it is electric, extended range, electric cars, electric car for 38 miles after that a small gas engine kind of makes a racket but powers the electric motor after that. >> rick: you have to plug it in? >> at 38 miles after that it is gas lien. -- it is gasoline. >> arthel: let's get a shot of the interior, it looks beautiful. >> gorgeous inside. >> rick: you can recommend this car? >> it is over $100 the most
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expensive we've -- over $100,000. the most expensive we've tested. inside the car is cramped this weighs as much as a dodge durango about as long too. >> rick: i'm crossing it off my list. >> arthel: i was going to get if with kelsey and get it for you. >> rick: and you kelly and a lot more. >> arthel: this porsche, i fell in love with this car in 2009. >> another $100,000 plus, this is practical, a car that rides well, drives well. >> rick: you have the keys? >> i don't. just have to look at the outside for now. it is a very nice driving car, roomy, drives great, great engine, lots of power. >> rick: i think you locked the keys in the car. >> arthel: we are going to make this car look good and
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sit here and continue the conversation. >> rick: what do you make about in car? >> it handles great, drives great. >> when this car was introduced a few years ago, -- >> arthel: four-door. >> i was one. porsches tend to be lightweight, fun, rear ginned, rear drive cars this has more in common with the big suv than with a porsche. but they pulled it off this car handles well, drives well and it has the same steering feel that you would expect. >> arthel: 0 to 60. >> 5.4 seconds. >> rick: what is the sticker price on this? >> about $105,000. we have the 400 horsepower version, you can get 550 if you want. >> rick: it is a hit with the
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folks who have come out here taking pictures with their cell phones of this thing. it is beautiful. how does it feel in the backseat? you don't think of sitting in the backseat of a porsche? >> not too bad both are four the fisker there is no room. this isn't so bad. >> rick: looks like a lot of leg room. next time will you bring the keys? >> arthel: probably better, i might have just taken off. >> we are trying to keep you guys out of cars so they don't drive way >> arthel: thank you. bottom you like this, that one not as much. >> both good looking, absolutely. >> arthel: thank you. harris faulkner, up next. [ mother ] you can't leave the table
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