tv This Week With George Stephanopoulos ABC April 3, 2016 8:00am-9:01am PDT
book now at choicehotels.com >> announcer: starting right now on "this week with george stephanopoulos," trump's terrible week. the billionaire front-runner down big in wisconsin after seeing his top adviser arrested, sparking a firestorm over abortion and getting slammed on his foreign policy. >> i'm not sure which is worse, dealing with the party people or dealing with the press. >> announcer: now, is trump more vulnerable than ever? and could a wisconsin loss make a convention clash inevitable? the republican party chair and trump rival john kasich are both here. plus, fed up and feuding. >> i'm also a democrat. that's kind of important. >> secretary clinton owes us an apology. >> announcer: as bernie sanders gains in the polls, the democratic fight for the nomination gets heated. bernie sanders joins us live.
from abc news, it's "this week." here now chief anchor, george stephanopoulos. was this week the tipping point for donald trump? imagine any other candidate enduring the week he had. imagine one dealing with it the way he did. it began with a battery charge for campaign manager corey lewandowski after surveillance video proved he grabbed reporter michelle fields at a trump rally last month. now, most candidates would discipline the staffer, not trump. he blamed the reporter. >> she didn't almost fall to the ground. he got in her way. by the way, she was grabbing me. am i supposed to press charges against her? >> then there was trump's trouble with abortion. >> do you believe in punishment for abortion, yes or no, as a principle? >> the answer is that there has to be some form of punishment. >> for the woman? >> yeah, there has to be some form. >> after the predictable firestorm -- >> being pro-life is not only about defending the unborn children, it's also about defending the mothers. >> donald trump is showing us
exactly who he is, and we should believe him. >> trump forced to backtrack. >> the laws are set now on abortion, and that's the way they're going to remain. >> another clarification followed. only the late-night comics seemed to be happy with how it ended up. >> at this point donald trump has to be pro-choice because he's made all of the choices. >> and on foreign policy, trump shattered more than half a century of security policy by hinting at how he would use nuclear weapons, and suggesting japan and south korea should consider building nuclear arsenals of their own. >> you wonder about his hand or his thumb getting any close to the critical button that presidents are in charge of. >> president obama weighed in too. >> the person who made the statements doesn't know much about foreign policy or nuclear policy or the korean peninsula or the world generally. >> and with a crucial vote in wisconsin just two days away,
trump appears to be taking a hit. two polls now show a double-digit lead for ted cruz, but in eau claire last night trump was in top form defiant and optimistic. >> i think we're going to have a very good day on tuesday. i'll be honest. >> so let's talk about this now with our roundtable, joined by our political analyst matthew dowd. let me ask the question i posed at the top of the show, was this week the tipping point? >> i think it was the tipping point to showing us that donald trump has great capacity to harm himself. i mean, this is a man of great strengths, very great ability to read the electorate, but unbelievable amount of flaws, and normally in the course of these campaigns, people grow, as you know, george. people grow and they grow into it and they learn to change the behavior and they learn to adapt to what's going on. donald trump doesn't seem to have a capacity to do that, and this week i think showed that it's going to be very difficult for him to win the majority of the delegates before the
convention. >> before the convention. but one of the things we've seen, hugh hewitt, talk show host here for salem network, excuse me, we've seen him be able to come back before. make mistakes before, still hold on to his voters. >> and ivanka will be back and that is always calming but i say, i've taught three 15-year-olds how to drive and we had fewer wrong turns and car crashes than this week had for team trump and it was a very bad week when you roll the car that often and you begin to show this way with that clip reel he's going to lose wisconsin, ted cruz is going to win wisconsin. the question is, by the time he comes here to your hometown and his hometown, can he put it back together again? >> that is the question. donna brazile, meantime, taking a huge hit, especially with women. >> absolutely, george. look, there's a new poll out, marquette university, 70% of women in wisconsin disapprove of donald trump. but for republican women, 45%. you cannot win without women. women are the majority of voters, not just a demographic group. if donald trump loses in wisconsin, and there is indications that he might be falling behind, it will fundamentally change the
narrative of his race. >> meantime, juan williams from fox news, we saw something rare from donald trump this morning in an interview with maureen dowd in "the new york times." he actually suggested he shouldn't have done something, retweeted out that photo of heidi cruz. >> see, that's part of to problem with women. you stop back and look back and romney was minus 11 with women. trump looks like he's going to triple that. he's going the whole way here. the problem is not just the twitter feed but the abortion, the idea of punishing women, this crosses political lines and, of course, it's totally anathema to the anti-abortion line that we're not about punishing women. we're punishing doctors, and we want to save children. so, at this moment, it's "the empire strikes back," george. you have the republican force, establishment forces able to concentrate on wisconsin, they're far outspending trump in the state. they've got the governor in addition to, you know, gosh, you could go on and on, who isn't now saying i am opposed to
donald trump on the republican side, plus, the planned parenthood people and some of the democrats, you heard from president obama, hillary clinton in your reel. they're speaking out against donald trump in a way that they haven't spoken before. >> i think the fascinating thing about this bad week, really bad week for donald trump is his support has not dropped at all. it's not dropped in wisconsin, it's right at 32%, 34%, it's not dropped, it's been there since last year and his support nationally has not dropped off in the course of this. i don't think it's so much as the anti-trump movement has done this, i think donald trump has capped himself in an ability to win a general election, it's made it very difficult and the ability to expand his support but his supporters are still really strong. >> he has a concrete floor and maybe a concrete ceiling as well or at least that's the question. stand by. we're going to come back to you guys in a little bit, but we are going to turn to the candidate who is banking his hopes on a contested convention and i spoke to john kasich from wisconsin saturday afternoon, and we began with the topic donald trump front and center this week, abortion.
>> george, i hope they do repeal roe v. wade and then it will be up to the states to decide how they want to proceed. it'll be up to them to figure out what they want to do and that's precisely what we would do. >> but you said there are legitimate and constitutional restrictions that could be put on abortion. what are they? >> well, george, you know, when you say constitutional restrictions or whatever -- >> those are your words. >> the only thing i would tell you is -- yeah, i don't know when i said it or why i said that in particular, probably out of context but, look, i mean, i am opposed to abortion except in the case of rape, incest and life of the mother. i hope roe v. wade will be repealed, and then it will be turned to the states and the states will have to figure out exactly what the restrictions ought to be, period, end of story. >> so, but, if you believe that abortion is taking of an innocent life, how would you enforce a ban on that activity? >> well, that will be up to the states to figure out what they want to do. and, you know, obviously when we have seen these comments that
have come out earlier this week, it's the first time i've seen the pro-life and the pro-choice people come together to say, you know, that we'll have to basically work this out and trying to punish a woman would not be the appropriate way to behave. and i think it's going to take people in a reasonable way working through it. >> but why isn't it appropriate? if you believe that abortion is the taking of innocent life, why shouldn't a woman who makes the choice to take that life face some kind of punishment or sanction? >> because i think it's difficult on her to begin with. that's the way i feel about it, george, and that's the end of it. >> even if it follows that it is a woman is there making the choice to take a life? >> look, i've said what i have to say about the subject, george. you know how i have behaved both as a legislator and as a governor, and i would like to have those exemptions. i would like to leave it to those exceptions and it'll be up to the states to decide how they want to handle this. >> do you believe doctors who
perform abortions should be punished? >> we're going to leave this up to the states to work this out the way they want to, george. >> so you're not going to take any position on doctors facing punishment? >> right now this -- let me just put it to you this way i'm not, today i'm not. i just told you how i feel about it. >> so, if you're still governor of ohio, what would you seek to do? >> work with the legislature to figure out what would be a good consensus to do. in ohio we have made sure that we have transfer agreements. these are things that we've done and i've been very careful about making sure that we don't pass something that is going to cause a constitutional conflict, which is i think what you were referring to so that the restrictions that we've put in place are going to be fine. and i think we've behaved there and conducted ourselves appropriately. >> let me move on to the situation in wisconsin. you've been facing some ads run by a super pac supporting senator ted cruz. >> amazing. >> here's what they're saying. >> the john kasich playbook.
polling for a last-second shot and blocking out the grassroots, but that's classic john kasich. millionaires working side by side with george soros are bankrolling his super pac while kasich votes against the second amendment and expanded obamacare in ohio costing taxpayers billions. >> what do you make of that? >> i think it's funny. look, george, you know, you know politics, you've been in it. you're a very smart strategist. it's what you put up with in a campaign. and, of course, that distorts virtually everything, and, in fact, "the wall street journal" in an editorial the other day said it was actually a smear, but, you know, look, i've spoken out, and i've said what i want to say but, frankly, i'm interested in talking about my record of job growth, of creating security for people in the workplace, getting better wages and making sure our kids have a better future and a better tomorrow, and that's where i'm going to live.
you know, i've had some pretty strong things to say. a couple days ago in regard to trump and some in regard to cruz but i don't live in that lane. i live in a different place because i have a record of accomplishment. you know, interesting in wisconsin, you know that they did a survey the other day, and 38% of the people in wisconsin have no opinion of me. they still have not heard much about me, which shows that we have so much room to grow, and we're concentrated in those areas where we think we can do well, and we are very excited about heading to new york where i've learned not to eat pizza with a fork and where we're running first or second in virtually all of the congressional districts and we're virtually tied with donald trump in pennsylvania. we're starting to get to more home turf for me. >> you still have won only one state, however, and as you know under the current rules of the republican national committee your only hope is to get to a contested convention but under the current rules you wouldn't
even be eligible for the nomination, because you haven't picked up a majority of delegates in eight states. it doesn't appear that you're going to be able to do that, so how do you intend to get that rule changed? >> well, first of all, george, i am not going to spend time on process. i have some of the best process people, you know, whether it's john weaver or charlie black or stu spencer. but there are no rules governing the next convention. the rules have not been set and we'll see what a rules committee decides to do, but i expect that we're going to be gaining momentum, picking up delegates and heading into the convention, and, george, look, the strongest -- there's two strong things i have going for me, number one, i beat hillary clinton in virtually every poll. i'm the only one that does it on the republican side. and, secondly, when they look at the record, when they look at the record of job growth, the record of international foreign policy knowledge and experience, i believe that a convention will look at somebody like me and that's why i think i'll be the nominee. we just have to keep going and we're going to have an open convention. and, george, you're the guy that gets open conventions, it's going to be so much fun.
kids will spend less time focusing on bieber and kardashian and more time focusing on how we elect presidents. >> i thought you liked justin bieber. but you say it's going to be fun but we just heard from roger stone, an ally of donald trump who said he's going to be organizing what he calls days of rage protests to prevent the convention from stealing the nomination from donald trump. are you worried about what could be a violent protest or days of great unrest in your home state? >> well, george, you know, look, we prepare for all occasions, but let me also tell you, i went to a convention in 1976 as a young man and actually worked directly with governor reagan at the time. and when delegates go to a convention, they're old hand. some of them are legislators, some of them have worked in the vineyards helping people to get elected and when they go into the convention, something magical happens to them. they begin to feel the real weight of decision-making in regard to who wins in the fall, and, secondly, this one is serious, would could be
president because they begin to realize that they are going to be held accountable and they are responsible for making sure we pick somebody who can be commander in chief, leader of the free world and can beat hillary clinton in the fall, and i'm the only one that consistently does it. >> i think we're hearing the pitch you're going to make at the convention if you get there. governor kasich, thanks for joining us this morning. >> i'm going to get there, george. we'll go together and i'll be running and you'll be reporting. we'll be there. and let's get more on this now from the chair of the republican national committee, reince priebus. mr. priebus, thanks for joining us again this morning. >> thank you. >> you just heard john kasich saying the contested convention would be magical but i wonder what you make of this call from roger stone, an ally of donald trump, putting out a call for days of rage protests in cleveland. >> well, you know, there's nothing can get stolen from anyone. we have rules in place that if a candidate gets to 1,237 delegates, those delegates are
bound, and they will vote that way on the floor, and if they don't vote that way on the floor, which they will, but if they don't, the secretary will read the vote as if they were bound regardless. so, we will know where everyone stands on delegates on june 8th after the june 7th primaries. there will be no mystery over who has the majority or if someone doesn't, whether it's going to be an open convention. if it's an open convention, then we're going to's going to have been to be clear, open and transparent on what the rules say and how they're administered. and it will be very clear and there will be a camera -- cameras at every step of the way, so there will be no mystery. >> no mystery, but what about the rules? you just heard me talk to john kasich about that rule 40b, that in the last convention required a candidate to have won the majority of delegates in eight states. will that be the rule for this convention? >> well, i mean, look, even if it is the rule, it wouldn't prevent a nomination later on in
the process when delegates are unbound, so i mean, the fact is, there's a lot of people interpreting rules that really don't understand the rules. the eight-state rule was put in place after the 2012 romney delegates changed it, so it is true that the 2016 rules committee will review the rules, and they will decide on what the rules are for the 2016 convention. that all being said, you know, major changes to the rules are very -- are not very common. so i think you have to look at both the history of the rulemaking and the fact -- >> let me interrupt you right there. >> sure. >> is it fair to say, though, that after a first ballot, there really are no rules, the delegates at the convention decide whatever they want to decide if you've got a majority in the convention, they can create any rule they want to create and they can nominate anyone they want to nominate?
>> generally, everyone is bound on the first ballot, and some states they're bound on a couple of votes, but you're right that on the second or third ballot, more and more delegates are unbound, and they can vote for who they want. now, you still would have to get a certain amount of states and delegates in place in order to be nominated, and so that's important. you can't just have one person out there nominating a candidate, but generally your premise is correct, but there are rules in place to prevent, you know, 50 people getting nominated. you have to demonstrate a certain amount of support and a certain amount of states in order to get nominated. that all being said, all of this goes away if a candidate gets 1,237 delegates before cleveland and right now ted cruz and donald trump, they have a possibility of getting to that number and all of this is put to bed. if it's not put to bed, george, then we'll have an open convention and it's going to be administered properly and we'll have a vote and we'll have a multiballot convention. >> that pledge you got all the candidates to sign to back whoever got the nomination seems to be falling apart. donald trump said this week he's
not bound by it and told chris wallace of fox news that he's still open to running an independent bid. now that he says he's no longer bound by the pledge, what are the consequences from the republican national committee? >> well, look, i mean, we expect that when candidates make commitments to the principles and values of our party, that they would keep it. you know if they -- >> but he's not. >> i don't -- listen, i think candidates are also posturing and i think they're posturing for the possibility of an open convention. i think some candidates think that, you know, there's leverage to be had over making these kinds of statements. there's no leverage over us. we're going to administer the convention the same way. and if the candidate can get to a majority on their own, then they are going to be the nominee, but no amount of leverage and statements are going to change it. the second thing, george, is that these -- these statements of loyalty is in exchange for data and resources from the rnc.
this is not like some sort of magical paper that we were running around with. it's the same commitment, george, that candidates made in 2012. it's the same commitment that candidates made in 2016. if you want the resources of the rnc -- >> so are those resources coming off of donald trump right now because he's not backing -- >> listen, i'm not making that statement. i had a very good meeting with donald trump, and i had a good conversation yesterday with ted cruz and i'll meet with john kasich's people next week. i think some of this is posturing, george, and i think after talking about this subject continually for the last eight months, i would think that people in the news media would understand that it's posturing, as well. >> it's posturing but words have meaning. and he said he is not bound by the pledge anymore. >> they do. >> at the same time, you know, you see donald trump's week this week, battery charge for corey lewandowski. that back and forth on abortion. and you add it all up, and it
seems to be taking a huge toll with women, 74% unfavorable in our latest poll, and congresswoman cathy mcmorris rodgers says it's hurting the whole party. is she right? >> well, look, i think tone and tenor matter. we're the party of the open door. we can't grow by subtracting and dividing and telling people to leave the room. i have been saying that for years now. certainly tone matters, and i do think that what candidates say matter. but, you know, to your point earlier about the party and loyalty and all of that, look, these folks are running to be the nominee of the republican party, and if you -- if what you say matters -- >> but donald trump says he's looking for an independent bid. >> the delegates and the voters -- right, and those kinds of comments, i think, have consequences, and so when you
make those kinds of comments and you want people to fall in line for you, it makes it more difficult, and so i think that candidates get that, and certainly, you know, if you're running for president of the kiwanis club or the boy scouts and you said you don't know if you like the kiwanis or the boy scouts, it makes your challenge greater to win those kinds of posts. it's no different for the republican party. >> reince priebus, thanks for joining us this morning. >> you bet. bernie sanders is coming up. is he about to win again in wisconsin? what will that mean for the big prize of new york, plus more from our powerhouse roundtable and we're live from wisconsin next. >> announcer: "this week with george stephanopoulos" brought to you by bp. safety doesn't come in a box. it's not a banner that goes on a wall. it's not something you do now and then.
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>> that, i didn't know. >> a closer look at the next big contest with the experts who know wisconsin best. know wisconsin best. ur commute? good. yours? good. xerox real time analytics make transit systems run more smoothly... and morning chitchat... less interesting. transportation can work better. with xerox. thank you for calling. we'll be with you shortly. yeah right... xerox predictive analytics help companies provide a better and faster customer experience. hello mr. kent. can i rebook your flight? i'm here! customer care can work better. with xerox. wait i'm here! mr. kent? each day is a game of chance. feels like i wanted to put the odds in my favor. so my doctor told me about botox®, an fda-approved treatment that significantly reduces headache days for adults with chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more. it's shown to prevent headaches and migraines before they start.
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man 1: hundreds, if you don't count the freelancers. man 2: should i be worried? man 1: you are the ceo. it's not just security. it's defense. bae systems. is this your standard if a supporter of another candidate, not the candidate himself, does something despicable that it's okay for you personally a candidate for president of the united states to behave in that same way? i mean i expected that from a 12-year-old bully on the playground, not someone who wants the office held by abraham lincoln. >> again, i didn't start it. he started it. >> we're not on a playground. we're running for president of the united states. >> i agree with that 100% and my views are not playground views. >> donald trump with charlie sykes earlier this week up in
wisconsin and mr. sykes joins us now along with craig gilbert, chief political reporter for "the milwaukee journal sentinel," and congressman sean duffy from wisconsin's 7th congressional district. republican congressman sean duffy. you had that remarkable i guess 17 minutes with donald trump earlier this week. he came on your show despite the fact that you and your fellow talk radio hosts up in wisconsin have been quite tough, conservatives on donald trump. why do you think donald trump has turned out to be such a poor fit for wisconsin according to the polls right now? >> well, i think it's the culture, and i think it's the politics of this state. we actually do, and i was trying to tell him this, we value decency and civility and rationality and reasonableness, none of which is really associated with donald trump's campaign. and i think that he's misread the culture. i think he's misread the political landscape. you know, here in wisconsin we're actually used to dealing with substantive conservative ideas, we're used to listening to people like paul ryan, watching the reforms of somebody like scott walker, so when this
political music man comes into wisconsin, he's actually coming into a town where we kind of see through his scam. >> you see through his scam, and, craig gilbert, in some ways, donald trump and ted cruz have actually made this a referendum on the leadership of scott walker and to a lesser extent paul ryan. >> yeah, i think this is the home of reince priebus, scott walker and paul ryan. i think his attacks on the republican establishment don't resonate as much here with republican voters because it's kind of a cohesive republican party kind of at war with democrats for many, many years now. it's a conservative republican electorate. you know, an activist i know kind of likened it to trump case, hitting a cheddar wall in wisconsin when you look at the conservative activists, conservative media, political establishment, governor, all these forces and a republican electorate particularly in southeastern wisconsin where he's deeply unpopular and where republican primaries are decided.
>> i like that, the cheddar wall. meanwhile, sean duffy, you're from northwestern wisconsin and you said earlier this week that you believe there are a lot of quiet trump supporters in your district and you have the largest district in the state. did you see anything this week or do you think they saw anything this week that would shake that support? >> yes, i have a third of the state in land mass. i have central and northern and western wisconsin, and though charlie sykes and conservative talk radio have a huge influence in southeast wisconsin, they don't have so much of an influence in our district, and so what you're seeing is donald trump get a lot of energy and enthusiasm in our part of the country. he had two rallies in wisconsin in our district yesterday, and it was amazing. you mentioned the polls earlier, george. he had women and young people that were out there enthusiastically supporting him. he was over capacity, thousands of people were out in the cold listening to him give his speech. so, i think there is a very powerful trump movement in the center and northern part of the state, but i got to tell you, the ted cruzes of the world have put together a great campaign.
he's knocking doors and making phone calls. but he doesn't have the same kind of enthusiasm because ted cruz was not always everyone's first choice. scott walker was their first choice or somebody else, so ted cruz is the second or third choice of folks who are supporting him here in wisconsin. >> charlie sykes, i see you shaking your head there. >> yeah, i think there's a little bit of a delusion there because this is very clearly not donald trump territory. in fact, you come into southeastern wisconsin where people have been paying attention, where the voters have been battle-tested and he is deeply, deeply underwater and he's being hammered among conservative republican women, not just on the issues, but they're repelled by his treatment of women, by his attitude toward women and i think you'll see that played out and also at least in the areas where i am and craig gilbert are, the crowds for ted cruz have been very, very enthusiastic, and in part that's a backlash against what i've described as the weapons grade stupid decision by donald trump to attack scott walker in this state. if this is a referendum on scott
walker in wisconsin where he has an 80% approval rating among republicans, donald trump is going to be annihilated. >> so, sean duffy, what do you tell your constituents who ask, you, hey, what do you think of donald trump? >> well, first of all, we're in two parts of the state, southeast wisconsin is far different, and i think charlie is right when he talks about southeast wisconsin. but i'm in the north woods of wisconsin. and, again, a lot of people, they look at donald trump, and he's someone who isn't talking about ideology. he's talking about america. these are people who feel like they've been left behind. they want the economy to grow. they want more opportunity. they want america to defend her border and decide who comes in and who comes out. they want a leader who is going to destroy isis and so -- >> so, is donald trump that guy? >> donald trump has really spoken to their hearts. well, i think for -- we're pretty split up here. he speaks to a wide swath of folks who normally don't come out and engage in the political process where ted cruz has that traditional conservative
republican element, and it's divided, and i think -- i mean, if i was to hedge this thing on the energy side, i think in my part of the state ted cruz -- i'm sorry, donald trump is probably going to win but ted will get a close second but i think ted cruz will win with flying colors down south. >> finally, craig gilbert, in your latest column you write about wisconsin's record picking winners. every nominee in both parties since 1988. do you expect that to hold this time? >> no, i don't. i mean, there's a good chance that wisconsin's streak of not just of picking eventual nominees and picking front-runners, they're in danger in both parties, obviously in donald trump's case and on the democratic side. i think it's a competitive race but it's a very good state for bernie sanders in two big respects. it's a very white state and it's an open primary so independents can vote. he's got a big base of support around madison and dane county. big source of votes, so that streak could easily -- is very much in danger on tuesday. >> we will be watching on tuesday. thanks very much to all of you for your insight. and we will be right back with bernie sanders.
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some of you know i'm jewish. my dad came -- my father came to this country at the age of 17 from poland. he came over, other people in his family did not come over. those people died. children died, relatives of my father. all right, so, that is in my heart to see what a lunatic can do by stirring up racial hatred, and we're not going to allow that to take place in this country. [ applause ] >> senator bernie sanders in milwaukee last night. he joins us live this morning. senator sanders, thanks for joining us this morning. we've talked to you many times about donald trump. you've called him a liar. you called him a nutcase, now comparing him to hitler? >> oh, no, no, there's nothing to do -- no, that's not right. what i talked about there was a
muslim woman there next to me, and she is telling me that what is true is that people in the muslim community are very fearful now. she was describing a kid who now locks the door at night, and what i was saying is, i'm going to do everything that i can to kind of stop those islamophobic attacks so that kids in this country who happen to be muslim are not afraid. i did not compare trump to hitler but i will do everything i can to stop this type of hatred and hate talk that we are hearing. >> you have been on a roll so far. some of the latest polls show you up in wisconsin. you've won six out of the last seven contests, as well. hillary clinton was speaking last night in wisconsin, as well, and she pushed the line that you're not a true blue democrat. let's listen. >> i'm also a democrat and have been a proud democrat all my adult life, and i think that's kind of important if we're
selecting somebody to be the democratic nominee of the democratic party. >> your response? >> well, my response is i think the secretary is getting very nervous that poll after poll shows us doing much better against trump than she is. the last cnn poll had us up by 20 points. here in wisconsin i was 19 points ahead of trump. also, a significant margin better than she is. so, what we are saying is i believe i am the strongest candidate to take on the republicans and the fact that i have been the longest serving independent in the history of the united states makes my candidacy even stronger. you got a lot of independents out there. so i think we can get virtually all of the democratic vote. i think we can get a lot of the independent vote. i think we can get a lot of young people's vote, working class people's vote. i think we're on the way to a victory if we can win the democratic nomination. >> you've also been engaged with the clinton camp in a debate
over debates. secretary clinton said this morning she's confident there's going to be another debate ahead of the new york primary. are you confident? >> yeah, i am. look, she has proposed three dates. we are proposing four dates. she has a difficult schedule. i've got a difficult schedule. you know, one of the debates proposed was the night of the ncaa finals, didn't make sense to me, but i think that we will reach an agreement. people of new york deserve to hear us discussing the important issues facing that state and facing the country. i suspect it'll work out. >> i hope it will. and one of the debates proposed and one of the debates that secretary clinton accepted was actually on "good morning america" on either the 14th or the 15th, and earlier in the week your campaign signaled that they were going to accept that and then once she accepted it, you're now saying it's no longer okay, why is that? >> well, i think what we want is to look at the maximum viewing audience, and any time and any venue that works -- that has
that viewing audience will be good. so we're looking at a lot of options right now, but i think at the end of the day, george, we will have a time and a place that will be, i suspect, a very spirited debate about why the middle class continues to decline, why we have so much wealth and income inequality in this country and whether or not we are being as effective as we should be in addressing the crisis of climate change, which we must deal with. >> so you're not ruling out that debate right now? >> no, we're looking at a number of options. the goal for me and i would hope for the secretary would be that option which gives us the largest viewing audience. >> you know, secretary clinton also said this morning that she doesn't believe that there are any constitutional rights for the unborn. is that your position, as well? >> all i know is that i will fight as strong as i can to defend a woman's right to choose.
i believe that it is an outrage that republicans who tell us how much they hate the government now want to tell every american, every american woman what she can or cannot do with her body, and i do agree with the secretary. i don't believe there's any constitutional protection for the unborn. >> so, are you for any restrictions on abortion? >> i think that decision ultimately has got to be made by the woman. i have a 100% pro-choice voting record throughout my career. that decision must be made by the woman, must be made by her family and her physician, not by the federal government, not by the state government, and let me tell you something, if elected president, i will not only fight to protect roe versus wade and a woman's right to choose, i will take on the scott walkers of the world and the other right wing governors who are trying to restrict and limit that right. >> you mentioned roe v. wade.
you said that where a potential supreme court nominee stands on the campaign finance case, citizens united, would be a litmus test for your choice for the supreme court. is roe v. wade a litmus test, as well? >> of course. it's very important to me. i mean, all that i have said is right now we have a corrupt campaign finance system as a result of citizens united where billionaires are now trying to buy elections and democracy is being undermined, and i fear very much about the future of this country if we do not overturn citizens united and restore one person, one vote democracy in america. but obviously, as somebody who has fought his whole political right -- life to protect the woman's right to choose, that issue is of enormous concern to me, and people can be assured i will not be nominating a justice who will not support that position. >> finally, you have been on a roll, as you mentioned, but you're still far behind secretary clinton in both pledge delegates and especially those superdelegates.
i know you said you believe that many of those superdelegates will switch if you continue to win states. have any of them told you that? >> well, what we have begun to see already is when we are winning states by large margins and, as you've indicated, we've won the last six out of seven caucuses and primaries, it is very hard for superdelegates in a state, say, like alaska, i think, where we won 82% of the vote not to go with the will of the people in that state. in addition to that, as i think we demonstrate that we are a strong -- our campaign is a stronger campaign against people like donald trump, the last cnn poll we were 20 points ahead of him. here in wisconsin the last poll they had out just in this state we were 19 points ahead of trump. i think as many superdelegates look out there, what they are saying, yeah, well, i like hillary, i like bernie but most importantly we've got to beat
donald trump and i think they will see that bernie sanders is the strongest candidate to do that. >> senator sanders, thanks for joining us again this morning. >> thank you, george. and we're back with more roundtable right after this. >> announcer: catch "this week" online all week at abcnews.com, on facebook and twitter. online all week at abcnews.com, on facebook and twitter.
here this weekend y'all are going to be electing 28 delegates. it is entirely possible that men and women gathered here will decide this entire primary, will decide this nomination. i am here asking for you to stand with us to elect delegates who are supporting me to stand with us together because if republicans unite, we win. >> there is ted cruz in north dakota last night trying to get those delegates, the 28 delegates from the state of north dakota, 25 will be picked today. we're back with our roundtable now joined by hugh hewitt from the salem radio networks, abc's donna brazile, democratic strategist, and matthew dowd, independent and juan williams from fox news, also the author of a new book "we the people." congratulations on that. >> thank you. >> there we see it right there. donna, let me begin with you. you've counted delegates on the democratic side at a lot of
different conventions, i see you working that pad right there. but let's talk about the republicans. you've got this big contest coming up on tuesday in wisconsin. most people look at wisconsin and think if ted cruz wins big there, the chances of a contested convention go through the roof. >> well, i think there's a chance of a contested convention because for donald trump to be able to get into cleveland with 1,237, he has to accumulate 55% of the remaining delegates on the table. about 848 -- >> that is before tuesday. >> that is correct. 848 delegates still available on the republican side. we have more than 2,000 on the democratic side. the republican rules are temporary rules meaning until they actually -- and i heard the chairman -- until they actually put that gavel down, some of these rules can be changed, so if donald trump is unable to march into cleveland with the requisite number, you're looking at a contested convention. >> well, and it's the question i want to bring to matthew dowd. is it really donald trump, it's really first ballot or bust for him, isn't it? >> i think donald trump's highest number will be the first round of voting.
that will be his highest number he ever gets at a convention which he knows why he needs to get to 1,237 in the course of this. i think the odds of a contested convention dramatically rise if he loses wisconsin. it's going to be a little bit like robert frost. we'll be down a road less traveled when that happens, diverged in wisconsin. the fascinating thing to me, everybody points at history in a contested convention. they say, well, it happened here, it happened eight times. it happened there. this is fundamentally different because we have not had a contested convention when two things mattered. first, media. people, everybody has a smartphone, this idea you can make decisions in back rooms is gone. 24-hour cable, it'll be completely transparent. we've never had that before and the second thing we never had before is when we had primaries and caucuses leading into a contested convention. every other time before 1972 or 1968, it basically was chosen by party leaders, and they would gather together. you now have millions of people who have voted who are going to watch a contested convention decided by delegates, and we've never had that before. >> and, hugh hewitt, the contest has already begun, we're seeing that fight in north dakota right
now, they're fighting for each congressional district in colorado this week and there are fights in the state at tennessee over who will be seeded at the convention. state of louisiana, state of south carolina, this has already begun. >> i think in cleveland you'll see juan's book, "we the people," and they're going to put a poster of we the delegates because that's actually about 2,743 living, breathing human beings. and three strategies, trump says it's 1980 and i'm reagan, i'll win the big map and you have cruz saying, no, it's 2004 and i'm going to turn out our base and win the narrow map and you've got john kasich saying, no, it's 1988 and i'm going to win the george h.w. bush strategy of changing things around. they each have a plausible argument but they are running into the reality of these 2,473 and i was saying in the green room, if someone coming up with an app to track the social media feeds of those 2,473 people, they will have 20 million followers because the delegates -- >> somebody out there trying to make a lot of money right now.
are you pretty sure there's going to be a contested convention? >> i've been predicting it since may of 2014 in "the weekly standard." it's happening. >> meanwhile, juan, your colleague karl rove, strategist for george w. bush, said in this convention could easily turn to what he called a fresh face. may want to turn to a fresh face, not one of the candidates in there now. and you did see reince priebus concede in the interview once you get past that first ballot, all bets are off. >> that's true. i mean, in fact, my theory is that there's an invisible name on the ballot in wisconsin that's paul ryan, the speaker of the house, the highest elected republican official in the country, and i think someone who's already tried to say, trump's kind of politics not to my taste. he won't do it by name, he won't go after trump directly but he's doing it, and i think you're going to see he was the vice presidential pick behind mitt romney and -- >> he keeps saying it's not going to happen. >> yeah, not going to happen but believe me, once you get to an open convention and the question becomes, well, who is the fresh face that you mentioned, george, who could possibly stand in and i think then you get to a lot of issues, could, for example, scott walker, another wisconsinite is going to be
there. could scott walker who has had success be somewhat of a rebirth for the republican party? paul ryan knows a very fresh face and then you go into some of the other governors around the country, are they looking for maybe a woman, more diverse look to the republican party, which we saw reince priebus, another wisconsinite call for in his -- >> that gets to your point a lot of voters who already put their, you know, put their hearts on the line. >> this is the problematic situation that i think the republican party is in. do they go for somebody new and fracture the party? do they go for the leader, donald trump, and fracture the party? do they go for ted cruz who has a very difficult time winning in the general election and fracture the party? i think the fascinating question will be, do the delegates decide differently than the voters which means for the voters electability has not mattered, whether you can win a general election has not mattered. the two leading candidates for the republicans right now, donald trump and ted cruz really can't win a general election for all intents and purposes. will they go for somebody that can actually win a general election and that's actually john kasich's strategy is get to
a convention and tell people you're the only one that can beat hillary clinton. >> you know, donald trump has to win new york and win new york big. as you know, there are 12 congressional districts in and around new york city. he has to win all of these congressional districts, plus try to pick and choose a couple of places upstate in order to, i think, go into the convention, maybe 50 delegates short. >> there's an important point about new york. if he falls below 50%, he's above 50% in the polls right now. if he gets above 50%, it's winner take all and all the delegates. if not, it's going to be divided. >> it's divided and, george, let me tell you something, their rules are so strange on the republican side that right now in georgia, ted cruz is picking and choosing congressional districts where he can win some of donald trump delegate slots because, remember, you have slots, not delegates, until you actually go through the process. and that's why i think this week mr. trump hired paul matafor, somebody who is seasoned at knowing how to deal with a very contested convention in order to begin tracking his
delegates. but it might be too late in about six or seven states. >> meanwhile, hugh hewitt, i talked to reince priebus about this pledge that fell apart this week. you have been saying you would support the nominee even if it is donald trump? >> i'm a republican. i'm going to support the nominee. i thought the chairman made a lot of news with you, though, when he talked very candidly about the rules being -- it's not rule 40b which i spent some time talking to rove about and talking to john kasich about this week. there are no rules and the rules will be whatever the rules committee says, 112 people meet the week before. two from every state, two from every delegation, and there are a lot of people out there waiting to see what does that rule committee do. i was thinking about -- i had dinner this week with matt parlow, who is the dean at the marquette school of law, he's coming out to be the dean at my school of chapman. he said in wisconsin the surge to ted cruz is so enormous because scott walker is leading it, so, if you get to a convention, it could go as one but -- >> to walker or to ryan? >> to either. they're both very interesting -- >> how could scott walker get picked by the convention after
he got knocked out so early? >> that's because rule 26 to 42 are temporary. and rule 12 basically invalidated rule 1 through 11. i read the republican -- we have to know each other's rules. their rules can create the scenario that -- >> i'm talking politics, not rules. >> i see no way that scott walker -- i could see a window where paul ryan could, but, again, that's going to cause lots of fractures in the parties between the anti-establishment and establishment. the other thing i think that's important in this process, we've had all this talk of donald trump and the contested convention. what bernie sanders has done in my view is just as significant or more so than what -- against hillary clinton in the course of this campaign and how he's conducted himself and the fractures he's revealed in the course of -- >> i want to bring that to donna. wisconsin, it does look right now -- you can't know for sure but bernie sanders may win. the big state is new york. if he beats hillary clinton in her home state -- >> it shifts the narrative. i mean, look, can i go home now?
we're already looking at a process that will take us until june 14th on the democratic side because the district of columbia will get the last word and given the fact that we have a lot of delegates in the district of columbia, super, as well as regular, bernie sanders should do well in wisconsin. it's tailor made for him. it's an open primary. independents can come and play in the democratic or republican primary, and he's -- he's also -- it also has a progressive tradition. dang county, madison. so, hillary has to keep it competitive in wisconsin. but she got to come to new york and like donald trump she has to win all of these what i call congressional districts but she also has to do very well upstate. >> she's got to do well. look, she was the senator from this state, new york state eight -- re-elected. remember, and remember she lives here, so this is her adopted home state. there's no indication given the makeup of the population of democratic voters here that she's going -- that bernie sanders can come in and take the black and hispanic vote away from hillary clinton. and i will say this, hillary
clinton, right now it seems to me not only is she going to do well in new york, bernie sanders would have to not only win new york, george, he'd have to then go out to california and win california. >> he's got a long way to go. >> and then he'd have to get the superdelegates that are -- >> thank you for pressing senator sanders on the hitler analogy. he did make a hitler analogy and he walked it back when he talked to you, and that's part -- donald trump is not hitler. donald trump is not mussolini like other people -- he's got a very amateurish sometimes campaign. but he is not that and you pushed him and bernie walked it back today this morning. >> very quickly, and that is all we have time for today. great discussion. thank you all very much. we'll be right back after this from our abc stations.
>> a fire inside a home causes hundreds of thousands of dollars in damage. why crews say it might be arson. >> good morning from the exploratorium camera, pier15. you are looking at all the clouds around the bay. sunshine inland right now but do we have changes in store. stay tuned. that will be next on