tv Face the Nation CBS June 23, 2013 8:30am-9:01am PDT
>> today on "face th "face the " breaking news, where in the world is n.s.a. leaker edward snowden. he left hong kong and flew to moscow. >> heading to what supporters say is political asylum, the political whistleblower leaves hong kong. >> big news overnight, edward snowden fled hong kong on a russian commercial airliner and there are reports he may be headed to another communist country. we will get the latest from bob orr, and we'll talk to the head of the senate intelligence committee, dianne feinstein. plus we'll talk about the battle over immigration. tennessee's republican senator bob corker says this: >> we have an opportunity to do something that america needs and that is to solve the immigration issue that we have.
>> alabama's republican senator jeff sessions has a different take. >> we all favor a good immigration reform package. this bill is just not it. >> they'll both be here to talk about it and whether house republicans will sign on to any immigration bill. we'll have analysis from susan page of "usa today." gerald seib of the "wall street journal." "time" magazine's bobby ghosh, and our own john dickerson. we'll cover it all because this is facethe. captioning sponsored by cbs from cbs news in washington, "face the nation" with bob schieffer. >> schieffer: and gourm, again. well, we're going to start with the big news from overnight. edward snowden has gone to moscow. we want to go first to moscow and kevin oflynn, who is on the ground for cbs news.
>> reporter: the flight with edward snowden arrived just over an hour ago. there were reports saying that there were two cars waiting for him outside the plane, and he was taken off the plane and put in one of the cars and his lug annual in the other car. and then taken off, but we don't know where. the plan is supposed to be he will fly out of from airport tomorrow to havana. technically, he can't come into the airport itself. he must stay within the transit zone. so where he actually is in the transit zone, nobody knows. at the moment, there are-- well, there are more than 100 journalists waiting for the passengers to get off the hong kong-moscow flight, asking people if they knew him, if they saw him on the flight. but to be honest, nobody really
realized he was on the flight with them. so at the moment people are wondering where he is right now. there have been reports the venezuelan embassy took him away or maybe the ecuadorian embassy, but nobody really knows right now. >> schieffer: "nobody really knows right now." bob orr and major garrett are with us this morning. bob, you have been on the story from the very beginning. what other weird turn could this thing take? it's like now reports he's going to other communist-- sort of a tour of communist countries around the world. >> don't underestimate the next strange twist. this movie isn't over yet, bob. i don't know where it ends. but the reporting out of moscow, if we can believe that, says eerkts he's headed for cuba and ultimately caracas, venezuela, or he might be headed to ecuador. in either case, it's highly problematic for the u.s. the justice department has put down charges that including charges under the espionage act
and i don't think either of those countries would want to play on that. >> schieffer: major garrett, just yesterday we had this extradition request to hong kong. what happened? >> the united states doesn't know what happened. it put together what it said and thought were really good charges that represented everything we could legally prosecute edward snowden under, thought there was an agreement with the hong kong authorities. after tom don lincoln firmed to our mark knoller yesterday they put the whole process together together the administration let it be known that if hong kong did not cooperate it would affect our relationship with hong kong and then china and now our relationship is in jeopardy with russia. >> schieffer: i think senator schumer of new york said this morning putin just kind of likes to stick his finger in our eye, and it looks like there may be
something to that. >> i think that's right. i think the problem here, bob, is the u.s. justice department had to craft charges that would fit under the extradition treaty, charges that would be applicable in hong kong. they thought they had a deal. when they learned the charges were under the espionage act, i think some people raised eyebrows saying will that really fly over there because that can be construed, depending on your viewpoint, as a political prosecution. that's not the way the u.s. authorities see it, but if the hong kong authorities and chinese authorities view that as a political prosecution they would stand back and not make the arrest and, apparently, that's what happened. >> schieffer: major did we drop a stitch here, or did in fact the hong kong authorities just use a tec technicality to o what they wanted to do. >> it looks like there was a technicality. there was a lack of an interpol warrant in addition to the charges rendered by the united states government, and that might have created a seam, a very small seam nwhich the hong kong authorities allowed
themselves to let edward snowden out of there. it is also the belief within the administration that hong kong was getting weary of the saga and would prefer edward snowden to get out. he's gotten out and he's now somebody else's problem, mainly the united states. >> schieffer: we understand there is somebody from wikileaks traveling with him. >> this was carefully oh, straight, this escape, iful, from hong kong. you had the wikileak attorneys. huthat organization involve invn trying to spirit him out of the country. they make arrangements, pattern, to take him through russia. they go through all those dip romatic channels and they reach out to the authorities in ecuador and venezuela, and for this to have happened as an arrest warrant was being "by the u.s. government is an extraordinary development, bob. >> the only benefit or the pursuit of free speech, but we're going to countries that are normally democratic, russia-- cuba, not democratic at
all. caracas nominally democrat. it seems to be an odd symbolic clash. >> schieffer: no report he is going to north korea. >> i wouldn't rule anything out. >> schieffer: i want to thank both of you. stick around we have a big round table coming up on page two. i want to turn now to senator dianne feinstein, the chair of the senate intelligence committee. what do you make of this, this morning? >> it's hard to know. i think it's a very big surprise. i had actually thought that china would see this as an opportunity to improve relations and extradite him to the united states. china clearly had a role in this, in my view. i don't think this was just hong kong without chinese acquiescence. i think his choice of moscow was interesting. i think what's interesting is that he was taken off in a car and his luggage in a separate
car. i think it will be very interesting to see what moscow does with him. thirdly, he clearly was aided and abetted, possibly by the wikileaks organization. i heard a rumor that he was traveling with someone. so this had to have been all preplanned. now, what the destination is, no one really knows. but i think, from the point of view of our committee, something that concerns me more is that we get an understanding in this nation that what this is all about is the nation's security. i think we should take-- on july 10, director clapper and general alexander are due to present some adjustments to our committee. >> schieffer: these are top intelligence man and the man who head the national security agency.
>> well, that's right. and if there are changes that should be made, we will make those changes. i think the front page story in the "washington post" with respect to the foreign intelligence surveillance court probably put more transparency on that court than anything in history of a secret organization and it's all out there now, pictures of the judges who appointed them to the federal bench-- i think we need to enable people to see the process that's followed. how we do that, i need to think out. i'd like to talk to chairman leahy of the judiciary committee and see if we can't do together some work to really take a good look at the process that's involved in this. on friday, the 50 cases-- and i just spoke to general alexander before he went on television--
the 50-plus cases of where this information was helpful came this weekend to the intelligence committee. it's classified, but we will be taking a good look at that as early as tuesday. >> schieffer: do you believe, senator feinstein-- we know and we have learned a lot about the capabilities of the u.s. government. do you-- have you at this point come to any conclusion about whether those capabilities and that power was abused by these agencies? >> no, i have seen no abuse by these agencies, nor has any claim ever been made in any way, shape, or form, that this was abused. you know, it's interesting to me, because i've been going to china for 34 years now trying to increase rerelationships between our two countries. there is no question about china's prowess in this arena. there is no question about their attempts to get into our
take him at face value-- he could have stayed and faced the music. i don't think running is a noble thought. i don't think there's anything noble. he has taken an oath, and these oaths mean something. if you can't keep the oath, get out. and then do something about it in a legal way. >> schieffer: well, do you think he's a traitor? >> well, i don't want to go into this right now. i want to get him caught and brought back for trial, and i think we need to know exactly what he has. he could have a lot, lot more. it may really put people in jeopardy. i don't know. but i think the chase is on. and we'll have to see what happens. >> schieffer: do you oong you talked to general alexander this morning-- does the government have some idea of what it is that he has? >> not to my-- not to my
knowledge. the only thing i've learned is that he could have over 200 separate items and whether that's true or not, i don't know. that's what's been relaid to me. >> schieffer: but do you know what damage he has done? what has general alexander told you about that? >> well, the damage he's done is essentially to reveal a program which has worked well and disrupted terrorist plots. and there are more than 50 terrorist plots that it has
played a role in. i happen to believe that this program is carefully watched by the justice department, but independent inspectors general, by the n.s.a. only 22 people at n.s.a. have access to it. in the year 2012, it was only
queried 300 times.
if they need a warrant to get content, that's sent to the f.b.i., and the f.b.i. gets a court warrant before any content of any conversation is looked at. >> schieffer: all right, well, senator, thank you so much for coming. we're going to come back in a minute. we'll talk to two more senators about this and about immigration. is that we get to create our future. you get to take ownership of the choices you make. the person you become. i've been around long enough to recognize the people who are out there owning it. the ones getting involved and staying engaged.
they're not sitting by as their life unfolds. and they're not afraid to question the path they're on. because the one question they never want to ask is "how did i end up here?" i started schwab for those people. people who want to take ownership of their investments, like they do in every other aspect of their lives. with senator bob corker, who joins us from chattanooga. we asked him to be here this morning to talk about immigration but he is the ranking republican on foreign relations. i want to start with this snowden story, senator. were you surprised to hear senator feinstein say we may not know what secrets that edward snowden is carrying around with him? >> well, i don't know how we
would know, since we haven't had the opportunity to talk to him directly, but there's no question that he's jeopardized the safety of americans, and i hope he'll come back and i view him as a criminal. if he views himself as not one, i hope he'll come back and make his case. but certainly he's not exuding the characteristics of any kind of hero, if you will, to anybody in our nation, i hope. >> schieffer: well, i suppose hope springs eternal, but what if he does end up in venezuela? what do we do about that? >> i guess we'll go through the normal procedures that we go through to try to extradite someone. our relations there, obviously, are not good, although better with this most recent election. but i don't know what we'll do. i'm sure we'll do everything we can to get him back into this country to testify in court and to be challenged for i think breaking national laws that have
jeopardized our citizens. regardless of what you feel about our n.s.a. laws -- and certainly we should debate those and we should have tremendous oversight to make sure the civil liberties we all care about stay in place. but i don't know how anybody can view this person as anything other than a criminal. again, if he feels differently, i hope he'll back in our nation at some point to argue otherwise. >> schieffer: let me ask you about the other big story going on this week, and that is you were one of the republicans on the bipartisan group of eight that got through this amendment to add an enormous number of security agents, bring it up to, what, 40,000 agents along the border. and you think this is going to help get this bill passed, the immigration bill. do you really think now you can pass this bill and get a substantial majority in the senate? >> i do, bob. and i think what this amendment that we worked on together and
it's been vetted by many, it certainly should put to rest, any issue regarding border security, a doubling-- 20,000 new border patrol agents, finishing the 700-mile fence, spending over $4 billion on technol that the chief of the border patrol has asked for, making sure that e-verify systems are in place, and entering/exit visa programs. all those have to be in place, bob, prior to green card. but here's what i would say. to those people who tout themselves as fiscal conservatives -- and i'll put my credentials up against anybody-- to be able to pass a bill that spends $46 billion on border security know know that over a-- over a 10-year period-- but know you're going to have a return of $197 billion without raising anybody's taxes-- what it does to those who want to come out of the shadow.
know they have a path forward to be a productive part of our country, it answers that, also. i think if this amendment passed on monday night, certainly it kapproved in the house. there are some interior security issues i would like to see enhanced. but i think this is a very, very good immigration bill, and i'm glad to support it if we can pass this amendment on monday night. >> schieffer: all right, we have to end there, senator. we, obviously, had a little extra news that cropped up overnight but thank you so much for being here. >> i understand. >> schieffer: i want to turn now to jeff sessions, senator from alabama. he is also a republican and he doesn't want any part of this bill. senator, i've just got to ask you this question, do you think republicans get it on immigration? because people like lindsey graham are saying if you don't do something, reaching out to hispanics, you-- it might not-- you might not need to run anybody for president next time, because with the demographics
changing in this country, it's going to be impossible to elect a republican president if you don't get substantial hispanic support. >> bob, we need to do the right thing, right thing for america, and i think appeal to all people, particularly hispanics and african americans and minorities. >> schieffer: but why are you so much against this amendment? >> i'm opposed to the bill because it doesn't do what it says, bob. this bill grants amnesty first, and a mere promise of enforcement in the future, even with the corker-hosten amendment, all of which has been put in a 1200-page vote we'll have monday afternoon that nobody has read. these promises of 20,000 agents won't take place, or are not required until 2021. no money is being appropriated for that. this is merely an authorization. we passed a law to have 700 miles of double-wide fencing, double-layered fencing. this bill is weaker than that, and it has a specific provision
that says the secretary napolitano does not have to build any fence if she choose not and she's publicly said she has enough fencing. the reason this bill is in trouble, the reason the amendment was thrown in here at the last minute was because the promises weren't fulfilled, and this legislation, this amendment doesn't fulfill its promises, either, frankly. we're going to have amnesty first, no enforcement in the future. we're going to have continued illegality, at least 75% according to the c.b.o. report. and c.b.o. concludes that the legal immigration will be dramatically increased and we'll have, in addition to that, we're going to have lower wages and higher unemployment according to the c.b.o. analysis of this bill. why would any member of congress want to vote for a bill at a time of high unemployment, fall wages, to bring in a huge surge
of new labor that can only hurt the poorest among us at the moment. >> schieffer: what kind of a political message does that send to hispanics? >> bob, hispanics are here today by the millions. they're working in the $20,000-$40,000 income level. their wages will be impacted adversely. their ability to get a job, to get a job are retirement benefits and health care benefits. somebody needs to speak up for them. and i really believe that the numbers in the bill, the lack of enforcement effectiveness in the bill, puts us in a position where it will impact all americans that are out there working today adversely, and the c.b.o.spdz has said, that the federal reserve in atlanta has said that. harvard economists have said that. there's little doubt about that. and so i think we appeal to-- we move away from ethnic politics and we try to appeal to all people based on what's best for
america and for them. >> schieffer: so as of right now, do you think this bill will pass the senate? or do you think you can defeat it? >> bob, they said it was-- it had 70 votes last week, and then all of a sudden, it started sinking when people learned more about it. i think if people find out this amendment does not accomplish what the sponsors believe it does, i think the bill could be back in trouble again. >> schieffer: all right, well, thank you very much, senator. we appreciate you coming by this morning. we will be back in a moment with some personal thoughts about congress. when we made our commitment to the gulf, bp had two big goals:
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washington has changed since i came here 44 years ago. there are some exceptions, but many house members, especially, have come to live in a world unknown and disconnect to the rest of us. they work three days a week. they take long and frequent vacations. and busy themselves with things that have no connection to the rest of us-- fund-raising to ensure reelection, traveling, issuing press releases, and more fund-raising. but nothing that affects the rest of us ever seems to get done. it's obvious they want to be something-- a member of congress. but when i came to washington, most members wanted to do something. when did that go out of style? back in a minute. for our children is something we all share. but who can help prepare t who can show them how to build on your success, but not rely on it. who can focus on making your legacy last
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>> schieffer: welcome back to "face the nation" part two. bob orr is back with us. we're joined by the washington bureau chief of the "wall street journal," gerald seib. the washington bureau chief of "usa today," susan page. plus "time internal" editor bobby ghosh. cbs news white house correspondent major garrett, and rounding out our super-sized panel our favorite political director john dickerson. we actually have enough people here to have a jury trial. ( laughter ) in most states this morning. bob, have you found out anything since the start of the hour here? >> snowden is still missing in action, bob. we know he left the airport in moscow. we don't know for where. the rumorand reports out of are he might be headed to havana and perhaps caracas or