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tv   Charlie Rose  PBS  July 29, 2015 12:00pm-1:01pm PDT

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>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with a decision by the commission of the n.f.l., roger goodell, to keep the four-game suspension of the star q.b. for the new england patriots, tom brady. >> i think it is going to be a very big deal to his legacy. it's not a mistake we're talking about the cell phone today. that's what the n.f.l. want us to talk about. the players association were critical of the n.f.l. later in the day and said making the cell phone an issue is a new low, a low even for them, and they don't think that these cell phone record which they claim all the information in the cell phone, the 1/2 already has the information anyway, is at issue and go back to the previous issues. it's about what the definition of "is" is. how many times do we get into
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these -- >> rose: and then we talk with u.s. envoy brett mcgurk about the new decision by turkey to join in the fight against i.s.i.s. >> if you look at the euphrates river and how it intersects syria, everything to the east of the euphrates on the border hundreds of kilometers that i.s.i.s. used to control is now controlled by the syrian kurds and free syrian army groups. everything to the west, there's a 90-kilometer strip i.s.i.s. still controls, and that is the strip we're really focused on. if we can help the syrians get control of that area, some of the moderate opposition forces working with turkey, i.s.i.l will no longer have an outlet. >> rose: and we talk to francis ricciardone, steven cook, henri barkey. >> going out hot against the p.k.k. and the government, at
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least suspending the peace process that had been there if not finishing it -- i certainly hope it isn't finished -- that again injects the kurdish national vs. turkish nationalist struggle against them. it's a poisonous thing, a bad thing for turkey, i think. it's a distracting thing for syria and for the coalition's effort to have a united front against i.s.i.s. so it's a very bad thing. i hope the p.k.k. and the governor of turkey can find their way back to a political process as they call it so end the armed insurrection and find a political solution. >> rose: patriot quarterback tom brady versus 1/2 commissioner roger record and turkey and i.s.i.s. when we continue. >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by:
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>> rose: additional funding provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: we turn now to the n.f.l. and the decision today by commissioner roger goodell to uphold tom brady's suspension for his role in deflategate. the super bowl-winning quarterback is scheduled to sit out the first four games of the season for alleged role in improper deflation of game balls last season. goodell cited any information that brady may have destroyed the cell phone that may have contained text messages in the scandal. he said it coapted finding he sought to hide evidence of his
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participation in the scheme. brady maintained innocence and authorized players association to appeal his case in federal court. joining me is ken belson reporting on the story for the "new york times," and rachel nichols, sports anchor for cnn. rachel surprised? >> i am not surprised the suspension was upheld, necessarily. they had been talking settlement talks the past few weeks. those weren't going to be reached. you had to figure the n.f.l. is going to go all out. what is the bombshell is the cell phone issue. that is not something anyone expected. for months we heard tom brady didn't want to give over the cell phone and i interviewed tom brady's ragent and said tom brady is married to giselle the supermodel and doesn't want his information out there to the n.f.l. who had some leak issues in the past couple of years. he said he didn't want to trust them. but there is a big difference between, hearings i don't want
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to give it to you and what the n.f.l. put out there which is tom brady destroyed his cell phone on the day that the investigator came to his door to come see him. >> rose: on that day -- on that day. >> rose: and it came from brady that he did it. >> yes, so the n.f.l. is the one that released it. tom brady then in the appeals hearing said -- he acknowledged it and said the reason why he did it is that he switches cell phones, according to him every four or five months, and he always asks his assistant, according to him, to destroy the cell phone and system sim card for privacy reasons. according to him, this is a regular thing. >> rose: obviously a big deal for the commissioner. >> they said we don't buy it because you did it supposedly on the day that ted wells, the investigator, came to see you. they also pointed out that there was a previous cell phone of tom brady's that, in this whole
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process, was brought to them as sort of a showing of innocence. if they said if you always destroy your cell phone how come we know about the previous in tact cell phone. tom brady's side doesn't always see way the commission does. >> rose: what do you think. moved it from deflategate to defell gate. we don't have to hear from bill belichick on physics and tom brady's integrity has been affected. by destroying the cell phone he's admitted the findings are incorrect. >> rose: let me make sure we understand. by acknowledging he destroyed the cell phone he acknowledged the commission's findings are correct? >> that's the way commission
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will see it? you can't assume that's true, although if you looked at it in the terms of the most likely scenario, that would be the argument the commission would make. >> and then the martha stewart scenario, it's often not the crime but the coverup. >> rose: or the richard nixon -- (laughter) >> and now, of course, it's going to end up in court so now the season we're going to hear it through most of the season unless there's a stay and it's not suspended. >> rose: so what are the ramifications of tom brady? >> well, his legacy is at issue. i don't know whether sports writers will hold it against him when the hall of fame vote comes up. he's already wealthy and has four super bowl rings so maybe it won't mean much in the end. >> rose: he seems like a man whose reputation means next to him. >> you have the word "cheater" next to your name the rest of your life. i think it is a big deal, his legacy.
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the n.f.l. wants us to be talking about the cell phone and the nfl players association came back hard with their statement late in the day they were very critical of the n.f.l. and said making the cell phone an issue is "a new low" is what they said, a low even for them, and they don't think that these cell phone record, which they claim all the information in the cell phone, the n.f.l. already has the information anyway, is at issue. they go back to the previous issues. it's about what the definition of "is" is, right? how many times do we get into these, in these cases? we've spun so far from the initial moment to have the afc championship game. and that is another big issue for the n.f.l. this could have been taken care of on so many smaller stages and steps along the way but here we are making national news -- >> rose: who's responsible for it becoming on a bigger stage? >> i think both parties are. the league is. this could have been settled by
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valentine's day. >> rose: should they have gone to tom brady and said -- >> setting this in a room. sit down -- >> rose: in other words, you have to be punished and we need to have a conversation about the punishment? >> they could have done that they could have sped up the investigation. to view themselves as impartiality, they hired ted wells. that went on for a couple of months. it was after the draft that we got the actual suspension because that would have affected their draft plans if they suspended him and took way draft picks before the draft and now we're into july and still talking about it. >> the n.f.l. filed a preemptive suit in new york because new york, they believe, will be more league or management friendly. the n.f.l. p.a. is planning on filing a suit reportedly in minnesota because the minnesota federal district court has proven time and time again to be more labor friendly. so now not only are we fighting over air pressure in footballs
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cell phones, who said what when whether in someone's nickname is the deplater, but we're fighting over is the case going to be ajude dated in new york or minnesota. >> rose: what if somebody steps forward and says here's what actually happened. >> the equipment managers were actually fired. there is always the idea one could talk because they're upset. but we haven't seen it. >> there is no incentive for them to do that. they've already lost their jobs. they may be angry but why do they need to step forward and help tom? that could have happened earlier. >> maybe they would step forward the other way. who knows what they have to say i don't know. >> rose: so why didn't they step forward? >> they've already been fired. >> rose: i see. why didn't they step forward, they have been fired even though we don't know what they would have said. >> the big question is why were
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they fired. the patriots said they don't understand why the n.f.l. is trying to destroy the reputation of one of its best players. they said that they stand behind tom and they believe tom. so that question is in circles back to why fire the two equipment guys. if you don't think anything wrong happened why fire the two guys. >> rose: what did they say to that? >> they've not answered that question. and by the way that doesn't mean they're still guilty, it just means -- >> rose: what are the other unanswered questions in this thing, ken? >> well, you know, brady argues that the phones were regularly destroyed. actually, celebrities do that all the time. it's not out of the realm of possibility. why he would destroy or have it destroyed on the day of is obviously suspicion. that's one. also, destroying a phone doesn't mean the record aren't kept on a server from the cell phone company. >> of course. >> rose: so let me just go back. so suppose -- let's suppose
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here, a couple of hypotheses, suppose there had been some deflation. suppose tom brady said, i want to man up on this, i was aware of this, i didn't make a big deal out of it, i know there was a rule but i'm sorry it happened, you know, what are you going to do? what happened? >> there's a lot of people when you talk about who's responsible for this blowing up to the size it has and taking this long, the n.f.l. is certainly partly responsible and a lot of people blame tom brady for it as well because there could have been a time early on which he did not do and said, you know what? i like my footballs at the lowest limit of legal deflation and if somewhere along the way that meant the guys thought take it under limit i'll shoulder the blame, i'm the quarterback that's my doing i'm going to step forward, and we were never trying to cheat, we would never do that, but, hey in somehow trying to push the brink to have rules, we pushed past it, we will stand up and take our
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punishment because we care about integrity. if he would have said that, it would have been over. >> it would have worked except it was two weeks before the super bowl and would have cast another whole cloud over the super bowl. >> unlike the fact it had already -- i mean this has already gone so far and cast such a big cloud. now you had spygate, you know, people wondering about the legacy of the new england patriots. it's not just tom brady's legacy. >> yeah, forgive me, i think above this you have greg hardy, adrian peterson, ray rice, and the commissioner has had to put in a whole new pollsion domestic violence and started to draw lines and he seems to have felt he has no choice but to come down on tom brady, too. >> rose: do you think that was his motivation? >> yeah -- >> rose: his sense of reality? sense of reality. he's under attack for being arbitrary in a bunch of cases, and now you have an issue about the integrity of the game and i think at that point any commissioner will say we can't go further here, i have to show
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you who's boss. >> rose: do you buy that, rachel? >> i do. and the appeal ruling they did today, the 20 pages, 10,000 word we're all combing through it noted the performance enhancing drug suspension if in the n.f.l. is for four games. this appeal ruling from commissioner roger goodell stated that they saw it is equivalent that trying to cheat the game by use of steroid or other drugs is equivalent to trying to cheat the game with what tom brady did and that is why it is a matching four-game suspension. now, there are going to be a lot of people who take issue with that, but it is interesting they drew the comparison. >> except the four games are an agreement between the union collectively bargained. >> that's the point, they said if the union is stipulating and collectively bargaining four games for the drugs they shouldn't have a problem with the similar disruption of integrity in the game. >> rose: is it a fair statement to say if the ball had been deflated, it had no serious
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impact on that game? >> i'm not sure that matters. i know everyone loves to go back to that, but i'm not a person who cares about that. you break the rules or don't. >> rose: that's it for you? that's it for me. i don't think this needed to become a long, national nightmare over deplated football. i don't think our punishment fits that crime. i don't think our punishment fits that crime, but do i think if this had been taken care of quickly, the way it should have, it would have been fitting. you can't break the rules you can't say that's okay. >> rose: one question, so where do we go from here? >> more court cases, trips to minnesota, jurisdictional fights. it's going to bleed into the entire season and, you know -- >> rose: as of now, tom brady will not play for the first four games? >> as of now. unless they can get a judge to issue an injunction to hold off.
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that's a possibility it could be withheld in the end and sit out later in the season. >> rose: not good. which is not good. the risk you take is you have an injunction now he plays and then misses four playoff games. >> rose: you guys are terrific. thank you, rachel. thank you ken for coming in. it's been a pleasure. back in a moment. stay with us. >> rose: we begin this evening in the latest developments of i.s.i.s. turkey announced it will cooperate in the battle. allowing u.s. to use two bases to target i.s.i.s. turkey had been criticized for failing to put forth efforts. joining me from washington ambassador brett mcgurk, deputy special presidential envoy. i'm pleased to have him on this program. help us to understand,
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mr. ambassador, thank you very much, what is your title special envoy? >> i'm the deputy special presidential envoy. >> rose: you handle diplomatic entity and the general handles the military end. >> we're both diplomats in our roles nu help me understand how this turkey thing happened. >> well, charlie, it's been a long process and it's been about a nine-to-ten-month process. we began serious discussion with the turks as soon as we set up the international coalition starting in september. turkey had a number of concerns. i put two book ends on it. president obama has had two conversations with president erdogan about i.s.i.l. the first one you may recall town of kobani, a small town on the border of syria was habit to
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fall to i.s.i.l. had that town fallen the entire northern border with turkey would have been controlled by i.s.i.l. president obama made a decision to do an air drop to the defenders of kobani, the defenders, the kurds there only a few hundred left at the time he called president erdogan and they had an in-depth conversation. myself and gen. general allen went out to discuss with the too that situation and we discussed with them, opening up a corridor for turkey for the kurdish to come in. that was a success. we built from there. we trained with them on the moderate opposition. there is a way to go but we've had good cooperation with turkey. they had an election, so our discussion slowed down a bit. then it was likely about three weeks ago where the talks
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accelerated, and turkey agreed to open up their bases for our aircraft to strike i.s.i.s. targets in syria and iraq with turkish f-16s flying alongside with us. some of the details of this have to be worked out. i'm just coming from a meeting at the pentagon with secretary kerry and secretary carter and also general austin general breedlove about coordinating. this we have a team in turkey on the ground and will move fast but we have details to work out. >> rose: you mentioned the p.k.k. what role did they play? >> it's interesting. a lot of this seems to be intertangled. it's actually not if you step back and do the time line. we preached the preliminary agreement with the two governments with turkey and nothing was agreed till we came back and had a conversation with president obama and the national security team, and then
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president obama discussed the issue with president erdogan, when the agreement is basically sealed. it was about two days before that conversation that the p.k.k. launched a series of attacks in turkey and killed a number of turkish police officers and turkish soldiers and those attacks by the p.k.k. were the triggering event tore turkish attacks, turkish bombing raids in northern iraq and the kando mountains. this is a pattern we used to see, p.k.k. attacks, turkish retaliation. obviously a pattern nobody likes to see. we recognize turkey's right to self defense, that's a bedrock defense of ours, and call on all parties to deescalate. but the triggering event was the attacks by the p.k.k. if the p.k.k. did not initiate attacks in turkey, turkey would not be attacking the p.k.k. in northern iraq. but the p.k.k. had nothing to do
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withous discussions with turkey regarding i.s.i.l. >> rose: they said, as i understand, no turkish troops in iraq or syria correct? >> yes, this is something we discussed with them over the a number of months, would turkish soldiers go in and be part of a potential operation on the ground in syria and turkey said that wasn't something they were contemplating. we wanted to use syrians in syria on the ground to be a maneuver unit to fight i.s.i.l. last time i was honored to be on your show was almost ten or eleven months ago and since then -- we were about a week into the bombing campaign. now we've done about 6,000 or so airstrikes, a little less, but about 5,600 now, and, of course we've had a number of ground operations in syria and iraq and learned that when you have a maneuver force on the ground that we can coordinate with, we can be pretty devastating against i.s.i.l. if you look at the euphrates
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river and i would intersect syria, everything to the east of the euphrates on the border, hundreds of kilometers that i.s.i.l used to control is now controlled by the syrian kurds and free syrian army groups. everything to the west there's a 90-kilometer strip i.s.i.l still controls, and that is a strip that we're really focused on. because if we can help the syrians get control of that area, some of the moderate opposition forces and working with turkey, i.s.i.l will no longer have an outlet. so their perversely claimed caliphate will be much more a self-contained problem, and then you can see how we can start to pressure and squeeze in the euphrates valley anbar province, and then what the kurdish peshmerga are doing. this will take a long time be extremely difficult, but some of the elements are coming into place to see element of
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synchronization between syria what's happening in the syria can and iraq to squeeze i.s.i.l. >> rose: a number of questions. one, the iraqis are talking about when the attack on ramadi's going to take place. >> the counterattack on ramadi has already begun. it began two weeks ago an extended campaign but they're making good progress. this is something we just reviewed at the pentagon. this is also instructive example. when ramadi fell to i.s.i.l, it was a significant setback. we got together as a national security council team and pulled together sunni-shia and kurds as a national plan for taking back ramadi, and it's moving forward. some of the units we've trained, it takes months to train thee units. they're now on the field in anbar, part of the
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counterattack, and iraqi security forces to the south only a few kilometers from the boundary line of the city of ramadi, retook city of anbar university. the president called two months ago to open up a platform advise an assist facility on the base between ramadi and fallujah. we and our special forces are there and we're helping to revise and assist the operation to retake ramadi. it is slow but ongoing. >> rose: who controls fallujah? >> fallujah has been under control of i.s.i.l for really almost 18 months. six months before mosul, in fact. nears daynew year's day of 2014 is when fallujah fell. they were using it to launch attacks in baghdad and anbar
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province and they're no longer able to do that. >> rose: it is said that it will be of significant advantage for american airstrikes to have access to turkish bases. how significant? >> well, very significant. you know, if you look again at the northern border area that 90-kilometer stretch of border is significant because i.s.i.l is really reinforced there and it's just a huge, strategic asset for them. they have also at times tried to move to the west to break through and really to threaten some significant turkish border crossings which the government of turkey controls and we helped get humanitarian aid into the strip north of aleppo and if i.s.i.s. were to do that that would be a blow to the campaign. we have been striking targets in the past two months but we're flying from the gulf, bahrain or
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other platforms, so about 1,000 miles away. incirlik would make a real difference. we worked aggressively, diplomatically to try to get this opening. so it will allow us to put pressure on i.s.i.l in these very strategic areas on a 24-7 basis. >> rose: my understanding is the president is opposed to having american either special forces or anyone else close to the front lines in order to direct air strikes. is that still his policy? >> the president's been very explicit in almost every meeting, he's not taking any options off the table and has said, you know, if the nirlt chain of command were to come to him with a recommendation, i think it's something he would seriously consider. so no options have been taken off the table but those recommendations also have not been presented to him. >> rose: why not? well, it's -- you know we're watching what works here, and when we have an advise and
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assist platform, we just got there about six weeks ago and this is still in the development phase. the idea is you are co-located with iraqi commanders who are in direct touch with iraqi security forces operating in the field and how we now have our chain of command through our joint operations center that controls the airstrikes, we can actually have a good effect without putting u.s. forces out in the field. but again, this is something that i know is dued within the defense department and, should the recommendation come to the president, he would obviously consider it. >> rose: then an idea of no-fly zones. whenever i've interviewed president erdogan a number of times, five or six times and he almost every time brings up the idea when the question comes to the borders about no-fly zones that he had a number of reasons for wanting no-fly zones, but that seems to be an idea that now is gaining enormous
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attention. >> well, it's interesting. a lot's changed since the turkeys first put in a no-fly zone some years ago. one thing that's changed, we've done about 5600 air strikes flying in syrian airspace every day. last time we talked, this was brand new. now we know an awful lot. 40% of the air strikes are within syria. when we're flying with great density, the regime doesn't come near there. we don't see the need for a declared no-fly zone. in kobani, we have a de facto no-fly zone. we made it clear to the regime that we're there to strike i.s.i.l and so far they have clearly gotten that message. >> rose: when i've talked to president erdogan and ask him about the borders it's a stock answer, listen you can't control your own border, why do you expect me to be able to
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control mine? >> there is some of that and you're hitting at the problem of the foreign fighter flow. we have 24,000 foreign fighters in syria and iraq coming from all over the world and building a coalition of 62 countries, the general and myself will be all around the world and, in fact, wherever we go, we hear there is this is a top tier national security problem from singapore to bell belgium and everywhere and coming through turkey. it's an issue of turkey but also the feeder countries to share information with turkey. that's something we've had difficulties with. within the coalition we have five main lines of effort, one working on foreign fighters, so better cooperation across borders. we're starting sov good effects there. what we would like to do we've known more about the networks than ever before and now that we have the information, how do
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you shock the networks and roll them up. turkey in the last ten days at this meeting of the pentagon, we had our ambassador on the screen from turkey talking about this, turkey's made significant inroads into some of the foreign fighter facilitation networks, they're sharing good information with us. this is something that's going to continue. certainly there's more turkey can do. we've said that clearly. really there's a lot more the entire global community can do. there's now a chapter 7 security council resolution to call on nation tones act and end force laws against flow of foreign fighters. we had a number of arrests in united states against i.s.i.s. inspired individuals. you don't have to be a foreign fighter and train in an i.s.i.l or al quaida training camp. you can be indoctrinated and radicalized at home through the internet and social media. so this is a huge part of the campaign. turkey is a piece of it but not
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the only piece. >> rose: you live this every day. all of us ask this question what is the attraction of i.s.i.l, the caliphate and the islamic state for the young people who discover it on social media and other ways but a lot on social media and another state department issued a counterforce with respect to social media. but what's the attraction? >> we find that there are different motivations. they put out a very positive message at one level. come be a part of this glorious historical movement of the caliphate. it's perverse, but you can see in the propaganda that level is scenes of children eating ice cones, and people see an historical movement they want to be a part of to be a part of something bigger than themselves. it's false and perverse but that's one line. the other line is the bottom feeders of society they're trying to attract -- you know
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come join i.s.i.l in syria basically you can do whatever they want and that's the gore and maihem they put on the line. they reviewed through sexual slavery and having a sex bribe. they recruit on a multi-dimensional level. to combat we integrate globally because they appeal different messages. maybe religious in gulf, the uplifting message in europe. most importantly, we have to defeat i.s.i.l. first and foremost we have to show this is not an expanding but a shrinking movement. if you go to the caliphate you are not going to live a life of luxury as a jihadist fighter with a sex bride, you will die a horrible death in a dusty field. we have to get that message out because that's the truth. we think the tide may be
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starting to turn but it's a difficult, global challenge. it's not just something the united states is doing, it's something we had to build this global coalition and having 62 member states is very important. just tomorrow, in fact, tomorrow and on thursday in quebec, we're bringing together the 23 core members, small group of the coalition, core contributors at the directory level to roll up our sleeves and see where and where not to synchronize and where we can do bert. we'll have a higher level session to figure out what's working and not and we're constantly correcting those lines of effort that are falling bind. >> rose: i look forward to talking to you right after that as soon as possible to get a covens what comes out of that and what is the assessment of kohl's partners. >> very good. >> rose: thank you, brett. thanks for having me. honored. >> rose: we'll be right back. stay with us. >> rose: we continue our conversation on the fight
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against i.s.i.s. and the turkish role, joining me from washington, ambassador francis ricciardone, until last year he served as u.s. ambassador to turkey. in washington steven cook, senior fellow for middle eastern studies at the council on foreign relations. henri barkey, director of the middle east program at the wilson center, david l. philips, author of "the kurdish spring: a new map of the middle east." i am pleased to have all of them on the program. mr. ambassador, i begin with you and your understanding of many things turkish. what do you think is going on? you heard from brett mcgurk as a bit of history. where do you think the turks are coming from and why are they now allowing the united states to use their bases to conduct air strikes in syria and iraq? >> i think a couple of things have led to this development. maybe three. there is been persistent
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american diplomatic engagement with the turks, of course and there has been a certain amount of cooperation all along despite the failure to have a strategic meeting of the minds. but that engagement has been there and skillful, i have to say, since i left. beyond that though, i think i.s.i.s. made a very bad mistake. if they didn't direct the attacks on turkey, then at least the inspiration seems to have been there. that seemed to have sealed the enmity of the turks, made it open to i.s.i.s. i.s.i.s. took 40 turkish officials hostage over a year ago and that's a gross humiliation to the turkish state and they haven't forgotten that. so that was unleashed last week
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in the turkish attacks. and then having gone through an elek, a lot of controversy about the syria policy. so a lot of things came together. >> rose: how will this change the game steven. >> well, i certainly agree with frank that the turks have a significant amount of enmity toward the islamic state but it strikes me there is something much more that's going on here and that the turks are seeking given the realities of turkish politics and what's happening in northern syria given the state of the peace process between the turkish government and the kurdistan workers party known more commonly as the p.k.k. that the turks are now using the fight against i.s.i.s., which they had not been much interested in directly -- getting engaged in directly previously, to take care of other business, and that is to ensure that, in part, the kurds of northern syria aren't able to
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establish an independent canton there. and that's really the motivation here and the mott violation behind this very specific safe zone that's going on. whether it changes the game for the good or the bad remains to be seen, but you can imagine a whole host of scenarios in which turkey and, by association, the united states gets more deeply and directly involved in the syrian conflict, which is a war that seemingly is without end. >> rose: to speak to that, also, david, you know kurdish situation better than most. >> we shouldn't whitewash the fact that turkish officials and the turkish government have been acome plilses with the islamic state. they allowed the jihadi highway to run into syria financing logistics, weapons, medical care of wounded islamic fighters in turkish hospitals is the norm. only recently the arrest of islamic state personnel within turkey, but they permeated the
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society. the islamic state and a.k.p. share a similar world view. when the deputy prime minister of turkey say women shouldn't smile because it draws attention to them in public, they share many approaches. >> rose: including the development of the caliphate in iraq and syria? >> that's the goal of the islamic state. the goal of the a.k.p. is islamic state in turkey. they have been clear about that. they haven't been a good ally. only recently they've allowed the equipment training program of the moderate syrian opposition. >> rose: i want to clear it up. everybody is saying this is all about the kurds rather than anything else with respect to turkey. henri? >> it is about the kurds but it is also about the relationship with the united states. two very important things
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happen. there's been very much an increased criticism in washington of turkish conduct with respect to i.s.i.s. the president twice once directly and once indirectly criticized, too for not cooperating on i.s.i.s. so there was a perception that the united states was not only angry but disassociated with turkey on the subject of syria. the the other thing is the united states essentially made a tactical appliance with the syrian kurds where we became essentially the syrian kurds' air force, and it is with help of the american air force that the syrian kurds managed to beat i.s.i.s. in a number of places and it is the only group that has succeeded in beating i.s.i.s., and this is what the president referred to the other day when he said with the proper allies, we can beat i.s.i.s.
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one other thing that was very critical, and that is that there is an operation room that runs the american operations in the region, and the americans invited a p.y.d., a syrian kurd to sit there. so what the kurd saw was an alliance between the united states and the syrian kurd precisely the syrian kurd that steve said, you know turkey does not want to become more powerful and establish an autonomous region. so those are the things that essentially -- the turkish decision to open up the bases was taken before the attack, before the terrorist attack. what the terrorist attack did was to allow the turks to announce it sooner than they were planning. i think they were planning to do it at the end of august and did it sooner because there was a terrorist attack, but the
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decision was taken before the terrorist attack. >> rose: who was responsible for the terrorist attack? >> looks like it was i.s.i.s. they haven't claimed but the person who blew himself up had talked with -- fought with i.s.i.s. in syria. he's a kurd in other parts of the southeast. a group of kurd who are sympathetic to i.s.i.s. he's not the first one to do it. there was a bomb just before the elections at the kurdish political party rally, and the person who blew himself up there came from the same group that also did the attack the other day that killed 32 young people. >> we don't know who committed the terrorist attack in zurich. wing it's a bomber working with the national intelligence agency of turkey. the reason they targeted two
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policemen is they felt the turkish policemen had a track record of close ties to i.s.i.s. after the two murders, then turkey responded over the top. >> rose: the third party the turkish government itself? >> there is speculation but we don't know. clearly, turkey used that as justification for launching heavy airstrikes against the p.k.k. and now we see an escalation of violence that destroyed the peace process, created confusion between the u.s. and kurd of syria who have ideological ties to the p.k.k. and been our only allies in syria to date. >> rose: mr. ambassador, what do you think? >> i'm not sure there is much confusion between the united states and the kurds of syria. one thing that i see shaking out here we should watch, it's at least a hypothesis, and i think may be emerging as something that may be a reality, is that
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turkey may be coming closer to what has been the united states and other allies' views of the kurds of syria -- that is to say, as quite distinct from the p.k.k. we and the european union have identified the turkish kurdish p.k.k. as an international terrorist group to be sanctioned and shunned and so forth, and against of which the turkish republic has every right to defend itself, leaving aside who provoked whom and whether this was a con strafed intelligence -- contrived intelligence plots, there is all sorts of theories. the p.k.k. is one thing and we since the attack on kobani last october by i.s.i.s. have sided with the p.y.d. as not the p.k.k. yes affinities, yes trr -- there are personal connections shared ideologies and probably ambitions, but the p.i.d. said
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we have no problem with the turkish said by the p.k.k. targeted the turkish state. turkish officials say turkey recognizes the distinction and the political spokesperson for the syrian kurds, the p.y.d., overtly met with high officials in turkey. so turkey is also making the distinction and useful in the american interest of i.s.i.s. >> rose: let me finish and then i'll talk to steven about the border. >> the turkey p.y.d. is coming to the embassy at the united states. has been sitting at stockholm
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two years but no full embrace of the syrian kurds and there should be. they have been the point of the spear in fighting i.s.i.s. in syria. if syria is about degrading and destroying eyes, we have to work with boots on the ground and the only effective fighters have been proven to be the syrian kurds. >> rose: henri? we are working with the syrian p.c.d. wep.c.d. -- p.y.d. we have a syrian p.y.d. officer. the cooperation is extensive. if we're not given the head of the p.y.d. which i think is a mistake is not to get the turks angry. i think the turks are very much opposed to the p.y.d. they tonight see a difference between the p.y.d. and the p.k.k. when you look at the turkish press, the government press and the press of president erdogan these are the people who keep saying the p.y.d. is worse than i.s.i.s., that if they had a
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choice, they would rather fight the p.y.d. than i.s.i.s. and when i.s.i.s. tried top overrun -- tried to overrun kobani, syrian kurdishstan, they made it clear they wanted the town to fall to i.s.i.s. when we supported the syrian kurds, erdogan went after us saying, basically what's in kobani? oil, gold diamonds? so turkey telling us there is a difference but there is not. >> rose: the idea the turkish government wanted i.s.i.s. to take kobani because they were alive with ice eyes on this. >> no, not because they're allied but rather but a to them, a kurdish entity in northern syria is anathema because that essentially makes the turkish kurd stronger in
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their bargaining position, in terms of the potential of having two independent kurdish states one in iraq, one in syria. that's the fear. that's the strategic fear tore the turks. i.s.i.s. is not. >> rose: steven, are the turks prepared to change their protection of their borders? >> well, this has been the debate with the turks that frank as the ambassador there for a number of years had with the turks and tried to encourage them to do this. in fact they have helped create the kurd situation in turkey by first in syria and turkey by first turning a brined eye to jihadist is making their way through turkish territory in the absence of an american or western intervention to bring down the assad regime they turned a blind eye to jihadists making their way as punishing
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the regime and over time an infrastructure developed along turkey's bored were syria that has supported a network of jihadists. there's no specific evidence, real smoking-gun kind can of evidence that turkey directly aided i.s.i.s. but, of course, they have coordinated with other extremist groups in order to get after the assad regime and why the border situation is as it has been. they only have in fits and starts tried to secure the border when they've come under heavy external pressure. i want to go back before we close this up to a point henri was making and put a finer point on it. it is important for everybody to understand that the turks have different priorities from the united states and its n.a.t.o. partners. it is first, as henri said, making sure kurdish nationalism is suppressed and a folk of that has been in northern syria.
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secondly, it is i.s.i.s. that is exactly why they sat back and watched i.s.i.s. take kobani. that is exactly why they have sought to break the kind of territorial integrity that the kurdish -- the northern syrian kurds have tried to establish in northern syria. just a week or so ago president erdogan said turkey could not tolerate an independent entity -- a kurdish independent entity in northern syria. >> there is an agenda here. richardrichard holbrooke used to say about me losvich that he would try to create a bigger problem to solve on the problem. he's attacking the p.k.k. and putting pressure on the syrian kurds to destabilize the situation to show the domestic public that he and the p.k.k. are the only ones that can manage tin stability and chaos
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that comes in turkey as a result of terrorism. >> rose: is this a dramatic turn or is it something that is an agenda of the moment? >> i think turkey's overt -- improving of its alliance and cooperation with the united states against eyes is dramatic and important and very, very meaningful on the ground. it should help seal the border against i.s.i.s. crossing and resupply. that's a very important thing. on the kurdish front, it is a complicating factor there, but the reason we don't embrace -- the united states government hasn't embraced the p.y.d. as david is advocating is precisely because we do not or did not, when i was in government support any separation of a kurdish region of syria into some other kind of state.
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indeed, all the effort of american diplomacy in the past several years has been to push, encourage, cajole the kurds of syria to work with each other and with other groups in the opposition to assad. so that's the reason we haven't really embraced them. if there is a turkish distinction, a recognition of the difference between the p.y.d. and p.k.k., it is only a recent one, only very, very recently, and that is very useful and important to turkey and the allies fully being on the same side with respect to what's going on on the ground in syria. >> rose: do you think any of this has anything to do with the most recent elek? >> yes, i do. >> rose: how so? nationalism is always a big theme in turkish elections. the kurdish factor was a big one in the most recent june 7th june 7th elections, that the kurdish party, the party that is called often informally the kurdish party, it's constituency
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is mainly kurdish, they appealed beyond that base as much as possible and tried to show that they stood for something else, stood for a peaceful resolution of the conflict and advocated, you know, democracy a and a more progressive agenda and not a strictly ethnosentry kurdish one. everyone knew who their constituency was. now with this conflict again breaking out and going hot between the p.k.k. and the government, at least suspending the peace process that had been there, if not finishing it i certainly hope it isn't finished, that again injects that whole kurdish national versus turkish nationalist struggle against them. it's a very poisonous thing. it's a bad thing for turkey, i think. it's a distracting thing within syria and then for the coalition's effort to have a united front against i.s.i.s. so it was a very bad thing. i hope the p.k.k. and the
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governor of tiewrk can find their way back to a political process, as they called it, to end the armed insurrection and find a political solution. >> rose: turkey has been vigorous in its denunsiation of bashar al-assad. the united states says it favors his removal or a transition out for him but, at the same time seemed to have dual objectives in syria. what might be possible in terms of some pathway to ending this awful thing? where is it today in each of your judgments? henri? >> i think the presence of the moderate forces is a non-starter. i don't see the moderate forces amounting too much. when you look at syria today you have essentially three groups -- powerful groups other than the government. one is i.s.i.s. one is the kurds.
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third is a patch work of battle-hardened al quaida and al quaida look-alikes, who are not being supported by turkey saudi arabia and qatar, who actually have done assad a great deal of damage in a whole series of places and assad, essentially, the other day admitted that aleppo may actually fall to them. so i actually don't see the moderates here playing a role and i think it's too late for the moderates. this is a dilemma the united states faces. >> rose: steven where do you think we are with respect to syria? >> i think we're going in for a significantly longer period of violence. this is a vortex that is taking in the surrounding countries. i think that we have a very different perspective. the united states has a very different perspective from our turkish allies on this. the too, believe that if you bring down the assad regime, you
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essentially go a long way toward we solving the i.s.i.s. problem. the break on american policy is that we just don't believe it. as you said before, there is no horse to bet on here. after assad goes, if assad goes, the chaos killing and blood letting will continue for quite some time, likely. >> rose: with that, i have to stop. thank you so much. henri, steven, mr. ambassador, david. thank you for joining us. see you next time. for more about this program and earlier episodes, visit us online at pbs.org and charlierose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org
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the following production was produced in high definition. and their buns are something i've yet to find anywhere else. >> cause i'm not inviting you to my house for dinner -- >> -- breaded and fried and gooey and lovely. >> in the words of arnold schwarzenegger - i'll be back! >> you've heard of connoisseur -- i'm a common-sewer! >> they knew i had to ward off some vampires or something. >> let's talk desserts gentlemen, cause i see you

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