tv Charlie Rose PBS May 11, 2016 12:00am-1:01am PDT
>> rose: welcome we begin with the foreign minister of argentina susana mealcorra. >> we want to be part of the world and the president believes this very much. i believe this very much. coming from where i come. >> rose: and we conclude with a look at virtual reality. we'll talk about it tonight with jake silverstein and nellie bowles and jason rubin. >> you have the level of paradigm shift we're talking about as far as technological innovation because what virtual reality is while it seems like a
buzzword thing and people are saying it's the evolution of video games and cinema, really what it is is technology communicating with us in a human way. in a way the world communicates with us through our senses and fundamentally the medium is human experience. >> >> >> rose: the foreign minster of argentina. funding is provided by the following: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications
from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: susana malcorra is here. she is argentina's minister of foreign affairs pointed by mauricio macri who became the first conservative president since 1916 and spent a decade at the united nations and served as under secretary and is expected to be the u.n. candidate for welcome. >> thanks for having me. >> rose: listen, we're fortunate to have you here. you have said some interesting things and your country has always had an interesting
journey. sometimes torturous and sometimes disappointing and i want to get a sense where you think argentina is today and you are going on a trip around the world. this is what you have said. it's clear we have to do today is show the world that argentina's is trust worthy. that we have become a partner that can be talked with and part of a long-term project though historically there may be proof that we haven't behaved always she way we should. that's a candid statement about your country. >> i stand by that. within a relation between people it's true between countries the notion of the value of underword is essential. that has been part of our problem historically going from one view to the other one, pendulum. which i think it has created a
tension in our relations with the world. you don't change this overnight but the intention is to be more predictable. >> rose: there was an interesting thing i'm not sure who first said it and it said is iraq the way it is because sadam the way he is or and is argentina have the relationship because of the way it is or because of the leadership it's had? >> well, i do believe leadership has a strong influence. i do believe leadership shapes agenda and that was the case probably more so in the 20th century. now the dynamics are a bit different. in the 20th century it had an influence i think argentina had a very
strong populist history which shaped the agenda and set the tone for the way we are, the culture we have, how we behave. how we stand before the rest of the world which is another interesting thing because i feel sometimes we don't stand on our feet and right and views strong enough because of this whole populist approach we have had. >> rose: did you become prime minister? >> you should ask the president that. >> rose: i assume he had told you. >> well, no, he did not. he said people talk to him about me. we knew each other from my times in the private sector and one day back in october i got a phone call on my mobile and it was him and said susana how are you and i said congratulations.
it was between the first and second round and he said i want you to be my prime minister and i said i have a commitment to the secretary general and i said you mobilized me. i'd like to speak to you and a flew to argentina to see if we can see eye to eye on what i should be doing. >> rose: did you tell ban ki moon you were going down to talk? >> the only one who knew was the secretary general who said you will do it. i met with the then-candidate. the next day he became the president president-elect and i said yes and two days later i was there. >> rose: people are are looking to argentina for a new beginning. have you a person who knows most
the international characters from your own roles at the united nations and all of us loved where we are from. that's something -- the connection between person and land and able to serve is a wonderful opportunity. >> for me it was a pending homework because i was at the university during the dictatorship and was active in politics but either you probably disappear or you left politics. i took the second role. there was also spending i had not done enough to serve my country and i was happy with what i was doing at the united nations. going fully back to politics was not an option. i'm out of that. this was a way to leverage my experience and really add value to a project that hopefully will
resurge argentina in a mature way. >> rose: let's start with the united states. what's the relationship with the united states today? >> it's excellent. it used to be we were talking about relations so i asked the question, it's not carnal, it's mature. the u.s. has its interest and we have ours and we try to find the common space and discuss things the way they should because there are opportunities that are win-win i deeply believe that. >> rose: what are those opportunities? >> clearly in everything that has to do with trade we can offer things to the such such a large market that is interesting and picks up our capacity to create jobs which is one of our themes but investments from the u.s. and argentina and we are going now with a very important
infrastructure proposal. renewables, ports, all the things the u.s. is good at meaning the private sector in the u.s. everything there to win really. >> rose: one of the issues about argentina other than its economic issues which were always there is it's relationships and who it seems to like the most. you take venezuela, you take cuba, you take iran, the list goes down. was that just the part of one regime or does it represent something we should understand? >> first of all, i believe that one should relate to everybody except for very few exceptions that don't comply with the basic
principles of human rights. >> rose: rule of law. >> except for that one should be able to relate to everybody and historically argentina comes from a non-aligned movement. the confrontation between east and west and defining the center space. but i think what we are trying to say and i said that from to the first day i arrives in office we have to have extended relations that are state policy and that are not ideological and based on the priorities and needs and interest of the country. so you sit and you discuss on equal footing based on that and you are very respectful of the disagreements about the other. that's the other thing in
argentina -- the 80/20 relationship always comes up. we tend to focus on the 20 and we need to be on the 80. that may create trust so instead of 20 it becomes 15 or 10. there'll be a remaining something you don't agree and that's fine. >> rose: what do you want the u.s. to do? >> it's important for the government to convey the message they feel comfortable from a general perspective, policy perspective we're doing things in the right way but essentially to have the business community interested in argentina and for that we have to work a lot. >> you're neighbor, brazil is having its problems. how's that affect argentina? >> well, deeply. first, we have a common market.
we are neighbors, strong neighbors. brazil is not any neighbor, it's a huge country. 20% of our trade is with brazil so say in the first quarter the trade with brazil fell 13%, 12% of your trade is off the table. not only affects politically and socially but economically. for us to have a strong brazil and a brazil that goes through this process not only making sure it follows due process and it arrives to the place where institutions are preserved is key for us because we need brazil to be successful. >> rose: what does it take for
brazil to be successful? >> it's an interesting question. i'm on the phone with my colleagues in buenos airs and i think they're trying to find a way to sort out the impeachment question. i believe they're going to find a solution. i think brazil will come out stronger out of this i cannot say exactly how. there's a mature leadership in brazil and i think they are discussing the options. the problem is how long it takes. >> rose: there's been discussion because of petrobras. others say it's a soft coup.
>> well, when you look at the merits of the case the president is being evaluated on there is not a very strong case. i think you cannot challenge the legality of the process. you can sort of ask about the legitimacy of the process. that's what makes people uncomfortable. in the end they're talking about how you use the different lines of budget within the government if you were to pursue any presidents, most would be impeached around the world. how much of that is politically driven but also true the institutions are working based on a guideline. you need it walk a thin line to not go too far in your
conclusions and hope they can sort it out on >> rose: when you proceed on the trip you're taking, what's your message to other countries about the foreign policy of argentina or the administration of the new president? >> well, essentially we are open to the world. we want to be part of the world. we deeply believe being integrated to the world is an opportunity not a threat. it's a major philosophical departure. the president believes this very much. i believe this very much coming from where i come. >> rose: and what did the administration believe? >> they felt essentially there were certain parts of the world that were worth it relating to and essentially not necessarily up to be considered. i think the world is the world
is one. then you can pick and choose where you put in the two-way street not that you pick and choose. you are picking and choosing also. the dynamics of being able to sit at the table and talk and say, listen, these are my interests, these are yours. is there a way to have a common perspective here. that's a connection exercise and that's what we're trying to do to drive what the president has defined as the first priority to drive poverty down which you only do if you create jobs. >> rose: is that the objective of the administration, drive poverty down? >> he drives the objectives. elimination of poverty, the fight of trafficking and the union of the argentinians and the rule of law.
those are his priorities. those priorities drive my agenda as foreign minister. >> rose: what could go wrong? you have a new president and experienced foreign minister. have you a sense of mission. what could go wrong? what do you worry about? >> interesting you ask. the one thing you that is happening and not only in argentina but in the region and other places in the world, people voted president macri but didn't give him the sum of power. he is the president but he has a congress where he has the minority. what people have told politicians is now you sort it out. you sit around the table and fix this mess. in a nice negotiated where where nobody has the sum of power.
then governors that traditionally were very much left out from the picture had a strong part of the joy stick because they're the ones who calibrate where the congress stands on issues. so the situation is we're moving out of a strong presidential system, very centralize and dependent on one person to a much more consensus building system but you need to exercise and it's not easy to do. so many things could go wrong but my sense is the argentinians have given a clear sense of we're sick and tired, fix it. the governors are close to the president in the sense of need to deliver. so in the end politics become something about doing things for the people. i think the chances are very
high it will go well. >> rose: how important was president obama's re-establishing a relationship with can cuba to latin america. >> very important. >> rose: they're desperately waiting to see some americans. >> when president obama was re-elected for my job i had the opportunity to meet people close to him and of course himself. they asked me what would be what would you ask in the process of the election to do and i said without a doubt re-establish communication with cuba. what happens historically happened many years ago and things have changed. it proved to yield nothing so why continue to do something
that it was one of those things i saw as a win an easy win and the president did an excellent job in moving ahead. >> rose: venezuela. what's going to happen in venezuela? >> well, we're working closely. in fact i came thursday because there was a question it's a place in the middle of serious crisis on many levels. political. interestingly enough there again you have the executive that is still in the hands of the regime but have you your position it has full control. how do you make them work
together? how do you find a perspective and then you have economic crisis driven by the cost of oil, the cost of commodities going down and you have an additional crisis the fact there is lack of basic goods to the markets so people don't have medicine, and now they are shutting power down. it's a very explosive situation. my view is we need to try to help both sides of the aisle and the vatican is involved now. they're trying to see whether we can be helpful in them coming to a conversation. >> rose: finally, the united nations and the secretary general's job. would you like it? >> well, i think it's simple to
say i'd like it. i love that organization. i came to the u.n. -- if you told me 14, 13 years ago you'd be involved in the u.n. i would have told you -- but then i came to the u.n. and i discovered there's this amazing construction, very difficult to put your arms around but it's there in moments where no one else is there. i care about it and i think i can add value in the organization but that is something in the hands of my president. >> rose: your president or -- >> the recommendation council of the president so he has to decide if it's good for it country. >> do you think there's a sense in the global community it's time a woman is at the head of a
united nations? >> there is a strong sense it's time for a woman, definitely. there was another sense it's time for eastern europe to have it. the fact they're talking about a woman that then brings my name to the forefront. latin america felt strongly if it was eastern europe that's okay but the minute it's not we only had one secretary general so we stand as a region so we shall see. >> rose: it's great to have you here. >> it was good to be here. >> foreign minister of argentina. back in a moment, stay with us. >> rose: for decades virtual reality has been the frontier. what might it be like to spend an afternoon on the noon, experience a war zone from your coach and live in the past as if it's the present.
now the technology is catching up to the ideas. in 2013 facebook bought ock -- oculus and anyone can create and experience anything they want. after oculus came a virtual reality industry from headsets to game and television and an industry estimated at $150 billion within the next four years. currently virtual technology is being used to improve journalism, health care, criminal justice and engineering. there's ethical considerations to be made and the technology is in early stages. while it poses promise and pearl it looks ready to go mainstream. jake silverstein heads the virtual reality and nellie bowls
and jason rubin is the head of studios at oculus and neville spiteri and chris milk from a virtual reality company. i'm pleased to have each of them and all of them to understand where virtual reality is about and where it's going. tell me what it is. first explain what it is. >> it's a technology that immerses you in an environment using camera technology that's able to create a full spherical field of imagery that gives you the impression of being in the location or midst of a scene different than the one you're in. it's gotten to the point now after many years where the fidelity to real experience is so great it can take the viewer,
trick the mind into believing it is almost a real experience. it's gotten to that level of fidelity. >> rose: where's it beingm used today? >> in a huge variety of application. we focussed on journalism and entertainment and video games are a major application. mentioned other, health care, engineering, military has been using it for years for training and other exercises. there's a few applications. >> rose: mark zuckerberg said it's the next platform. is he right? >> i think so. >> rose: that's why he bought oculus. >> if it works it takes over your senses. right now we're work on the eyes. once you've taken over somebody's eyes and i understand you experienced it last night you were at the only of a building and felt the fear of walk off though it was fake
imagery and once you do that you can take the place of things. can put a tv screen in front of you, you can put 50 screens in front of you or in the front row of a basketball game or in front of your friend on the other side of the planet when you can do that it replaces things and becomes the next place to go for re entertainment and socializing. >> rose: is there a precedent for how revolutionary it can become? >> when can we remember a change in a new medium altogether. i can't remember one in my life time i think a decade from now we'll look at v.r. as a milestone because it's possible to create the sense of presence that couldn't be possible previously. >> i think if you look historically in the second half of the 1800s we as a species figured out how to record and broadcast moving picture and
sound. out of that technology grows a multitude of immediate cinema, really what it is is technology communicating with us in a human way in the way the world communicates with us through our senses. and fundamentally the medium is human experience. >> i agree with you guys. i think it's going to be an enormous platform and the potential's huge i don't think we're there yet. even in the next couple years. you can do experimental stuff and have short experiences but in terms of a long immersive experience or --
>> rose: what do they need to get there? >> i think a lot of it is in terms of talent. the creators and the language on how to tell a story on v.r. hasn't been decided yet. we'll have to rethink how plot works for a movie on v.r. similar to when the internet start and people were supporting the printed page and thought that's how it works. v.r. will redefine the narrative. >> before television and film and movies, i guess, we had no other ways to be in experiences and other places. the thing with v.r. is we're putting you in that other world. >> rose: when will we be there. >> it took a long time to
understanding the medium and creating the language to make things. i think we'll move faster because there's more people -- >> rose: like i saw this on nepal. it wasn't what i imagine to be in nepal. it wasn't cold but there was a sense of being able to look around. a sense of the wonder of the mountains. there was a sense of someone there within his realm talking to me but i understood the difference. when you think about all that. are we going to become people that don't travel because we can engage in virtual reality and humans don't interact. >> one thing is take you to places you couldn't otherwise go. i don't know it's going to become a substitute for places you can actually go. we have a film coming out in a few weeks that takes you to the surface of pluto.
no one can go to pluto but you can with the v.r. film using c.g., computer-generated graphic from real terrain taken by the new horizons mission. it's a real data-driven recrea s recreation of what the surface of pluto is like. that's one application of v.r., putting you in a place you can't otherwise be. >> rose: like a war zone. >> the same could be said about the work we've done putting you in locations, conflict areas. places that are difficult to go to and where most people aren't going to go to but being there gives those viewers a sense of presence and empathy and connection with those people they wouldn't otherwise have. >> this is a brief montage of experiences one can have while
in the oculus rift. it's called dream deck. take a look at this. >> it explains v.r. the building that just passed -- >> rose: it was walking towards me. >> you felt the fear you wouldn't normally fear in a television and you wouldn't take a step off. the building has dimension. can look over it and move your head and see any direction. it feels real. even the scene with the fake camp fire and the deer you still believe it's a real deer because it has that physical shape you
can move around. >> a key challenge of v.r. is it's difficult to talk about and describe it. there's a clear tipping point and we see this all the time because we've been have you someone walking in who's a skeptic and then they put a headset on and they come out of the experience and they're converted. it's a jaw-dropping experience and the possibilities open up. it's early days and partly because it's going it take time for the medium to be exposed. >> the idea's been around a while. >> rose: did mark zuckerberg say it's going to be a $150 billion market in four years. does that make sense? >> that's the base case. i think they have an accel rated case more bullish than that.
>> rose: in four years? >> the speed at the rate of technology adoption looking at cell phones we were surprised with the rate of adoption on the smartphone and i think we'll be surprised with the accelerated rate of -- >> rose: there's the thing i experienced after the discovery and remarkable expectations how it will develop and it's always slower than they expect and it reached a point and spurts forward. >> we reached that point with vr. this year's important in terms of the hardware itself. one of the big challenges with vr is the distribution challenge. it's a complicated technology. we have a headset in front of us and not many people in the world have these and you make these films and who can see them. we're still not at the point
with saturation for what is needed for people to view them. we have lots of pieces of hardware two on the table in front of us that will be distributed to more people. >> rose: more software. >> and content. for many years the problem was distribution and not being enough headsets out in the word and this year's a turning point. >> i hate to be the skeptic and i do think they'll be awesome but when the first smartphones came out i told my mom you have to get this, it's so cool. you can check your e-mail. you're tethered to an experience you need a special computer to use the oculus.
>> your mom already has 99% of the hardware that's required in her pocket and "the new york times" can send her a card board with her sunday edition and she can have that experience. >> there's tons of experiences being tailored. being in nepal or being an ocean are not games. they're broad. >> the way to describe it to your mom like how do you look at the screen and describe it. the thing that is easiest to equate it to thus far is a dream. you know it's not truly real yet it fields there though you know you're standing in the studio with carbon in front of you but won't step off it. >> rose: tell us what we'll see here the evolution of burst. >> it's a short film we produced
and i districted. you find yourself on a lake and there's a train in the distance. there's a dream narrative. >> it's looking at a train but you can can look in any direction. >> all the movement, the birds it's causing you to naturally spin your head around and you realize, wait, if i keep spinning my head around i can keep following the bird and see more and it's a great introduction to vr and it does a beautiful job of that.
>> rose: so what's the challenge for silicon valley? >> it's going to take time and mark zuckerberg has said several times it's going it take time for this to take off. we believe in the hockey stick. we believe it's going to take off. timing the hockey stick and predicting when that's going to happen is not what we're doing. >> at "the new york times" we started to get interesting in doing vr and starting a major vr initiative. we had work we needed to do within the building to convince more traditional journalists it would be a good idea and we were going around a particular project chris and his team made for the united nations that takes you inside a jordanian camp and you put on the head set on a consequence of journalists. many of whom were on the international desk and knew the story well and they came out profoundly moved and even
shaken. one person said the it changes what it means to bear witness and do our work. our work in the international reporting context is about bearing witness and we can put a reader in a position to bear witness. >> when the iphone came out there was no app store. wh the app store i doubt anyone at apple said people will start renting homes from each other. they didn't say that. it took a while. we're at the moment where we're just launching it. we don't know what the uber or airbnb is. >> rose: is that right? >> we are seeing an explosion of interests from the creative community. so in addition to journalism we're seeing film
it's a global phenomenon at a significant rate i think we'll continue to see an explosion of exploration around different experiences. >> i want you to introduce the blue encounter. you have to realize this is nothing like the experience. it just gives a sense in two dimensions what it's about but to have one of these on and to see experiences is dramatically different but we want you to see it because these are the kinds of things people are look at and you'll see the picture in the middle of it. tell me about it. >> the blue was our first exploration of the mude -- medium. we wanted to look at what is unique to vr with a story you couldn't used with a regular framed medium. the thought was how can we give
you an opportunity to come close encounters with the largest species in the planet. the inspiration was this encounter, this notion of being able to look in the eye of another being on planet earth and establish a sense of connectivity where you are as much as part of the story as the whale you're encountering because it's happening to you. you're choosing how to look at the whale, where to position yourself to the creature and we have people responded well and it's created a series of underwater experiences for the blue. >> rose: what is google doing? >> there's a massive initiative with cognitive and work-around cameras there's focus from
google and others. >> rose: and apple? >> my impression is apple is sitting back and waiting for the maturation toe take place and they'll make their their move at that point. i assume. >> we do two experiences one with youtube and apple music. i would say that the potential base of people interested in virtual reality in the iphone users is very high. iphone users are often on the
creative side of the industry and early adopters and having an attachment on an iphone for virtual reality would be a great thing for everyone and virtual reality in general. >> with the watch they waited until wearables have gotten big and then google came out with google class right away which i thought was fantastic and fun and you wore a face computer. so google's always trying out things and pushing it. >> google had a major impact on the whole field last year but distributing a lot of google cardboard which solves the problems of not many headsets. we partnered and send 1 million card board head sets and there's two lenses and it blocks out the world around you like this by
adding that to your smartphone in an app we were able to create an experience. >> it lets them understand what it means and i think the google card board is the most important virtual reality initiative because it gave millions of people to have their beginning taste of what the experience looks like and it all needs to the next step. >> rose: look at this, sir paul mccartney concert in virtual reality. >> rose: why's it moving that way. >> you were in the app it would
move where you wanted to live and i imagine they're trying to show you what vr like but they don't do a good job. >> why do you want to see paul mccartney on vr. >> i haven't stood next to him on stage and there'll be things some people will want to do and some things people won't want to do. >> there are some experiences that are a regular rectangle 2-d experience is fine and now that we're making as many vr films we're in a position to say when a project comes up what's the best way to express this. should we use video, vr or other tools. >> rose: how to climb a snowy mountain in nepal in virtual reality.
>> the camera is moving that way because you are the camera. you can have an experience in vr where you don't move your head very much but the fact you can move it half an inch to the right or left gives a sense of presence and agency that changes the experience. >> technology will get better and better. i may not want to see a paul mccartney concert but i'll never climb a mountain in nepal and i'd love to be there. >> why not? >> i have scuba dove. a lot of people don't do it. you can did it.
>> rose: who's best prepared to tell me what virtual reality will do to fill phil many >> it's its own unique medium and it came out after decades of experimentation. the language of story telling will be something else. >> rose: you haven't found that? >> "citizen kane" is not in year one but the format is revolving. the format of cinema was burst at the beginning through the motion picture camera and projector and sustained the life of the medium. virtual reality is the actual format isn't fixed.
it's constantly evolving so you're building a story that's not finished. you can look around and tomorrow you'll be able to walk around. in a couple years you'll be able to talk and interact and have agency within the story and that will change how you tell a story every time. >> and filmmakers will see that. >> jon favreau saw it was a new medium and immediately became interested in developing it and he's figuring out how is this different from film and what's unique. >> rose: and where is it with respect to games. >> 30 years in the game business had gotten to the point personally where games were repeating what had been done and i saw vr and that brought me
back. inherentl inherently games were meant for vr and that creates the immersion. throw into that aliens or ghosts or whatever you want to create and you put people in the game which is something as a gamemaker you could never do. there was always the window people in the game. we are about to release touch controllers where your hands suddenly show up and it's a new way of interacting inside the game and feeling like the game is around you. fantastic and it's going to in a lot of ways add it the gaming flavor. >> at the intersection of ai and
the internet of things you can picture a worldwide that will get strange quickly. >> there's smart contact lenses. then ai will be super important because you'll walk down the street and you'll want it to analyze. >> game characters have been always drol but if they sound like they have intelligence it's going to make it great. >> you'll have agency to interact with characters. in the long term you'll need ai. >> rose: but it's happening now in terms of development of ai? >> i would say it's in its infancy. >> rose: i would too. >> there's a history in game development and game diners and developers have a leg up in
terms of the understanding of interactive systems and you're seeing a lot of that. >> games are being repurposed to things that aren't games. >> rose: a couple applications. health care. how will that take place? >> the surgeon is not there and the camera makes you feel like you're in the room. >> rose: are we in an age where most apps will not come from someone's garage but amazon, facebook? >> i think the infrastructure will come from them but you'll start seeing experiences come from all corners of the world. once the cameras are there and constant creation tools are there it's the same as video and user-generated content on youtube. people will make their own
mobile apps. >> it starts with people in a small room and these are available devices. >> it's the domesticization of technology and data. you can build an experience from the other side of the world and share it with someone and they can experience what i experience or create an experience to go to pluto and share that experience. >> that's why film is a limited metaphor of limited value in thinking about this kind of stuff. it is more about experience. it's more akin to an amazing exhibit in a museum. something you can take a tour through. an experience you can have that should illuminate you and the
ability to take somebody who wasn't able to have that experience and give them that experience is powerful. >> that creativity we talk about it not only coming from the center from new york or l.a. or silicon valley but from the edges of the network. >> rose: i can think about people who don't have easy access to the great museums of the world. being able to walk from gallery to gallery, get as close to the painting as you want to. >> instead of just a picture of the painting see it in the museum it's supposed to be seen. >> rose: should we be worried in the same way elon musk and bill gates raised questions about ai? >> we should be concerned of all
technology ways because with you don't know what's going to come but it's exciting. >> rose: you can't avoid it. >> it is what it is. it's coming. >> bill gates advocated vr for education purpose and you look at the potential in the learning systems and how valuable vr can be there. >> rose: thank you all of you. thanks very much. we introduced you this evening to a whole idea that's been around for a while and gaining speed, virtual reality. thank you for joining us. see you next time. for more about the program visit us online at pbs.org and charlierose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications
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