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tv   Charlie Rose  PBS  May 20, 2016 12:00pm-1:01pm PDT

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>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin with the crash of egyptair 804 on a journey from paris to cairo. here is cbs scott pelley, and i'm sitting in this evening. and here is our report. >> this was the second egyptair plane to leave paris in the past day that no one wanted to be on. this flight was taking grieving family members to cairo. their relatives who had left on last night's flight never made it. egyptair flight 804 had been at its normal cruising altitude in greek airspace over the eastern mediterranean when some time after 2 a.m. local time, something catastrophic happened. greek radar showed the plane going into a series of violent irregular maneuvers. first turning abruptly 90 degrees to the left. then swinging through a tight 360 degree circle to the right,
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all while dropping like a rock one official said down to 15,000 feet. and then at 10,000 feet, disappearing off the radar. there had been no distress call from the crew about the egyptians said an emergency beacon may have been act vaid-- activated. an air and sea search was launched including this u.s. or ion sent from sis illy. and later in the day what looked like debris was sighted by the captain of a ship in the area. although greek official was not confirm this came from the plane. by chance, the aircraft involved in today's crash was seen in brussels last year. but if it was destroyed by a bomb, it's not clear where that could have been put on board. in the past day the plane had flown to aritria, to tunisia and then to paris. an explosive device on a timer could have been loaded anywhere says cbs news transportation security analyst and former ntsb
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chairman mark rosenker. >> that's why the investigators are going to be looking at all of the stops that this aircraft made prior to coming to paris. they're going to make a very serious examination and series of interviews with anybody who had any type of exposure to this aircraft whether it was cleaning crew, whether it was catering crew, whether it was the refueling crew or whether it was the baggage crew. >> reporter: the search for wreckage, in fact, has become a bit of a mystery of its own. the egyptians said earlier today that greek search crews had, in fact, found debris from the plane but the greeks later said they had found nothing of the kind. in any event, the mystery of the flight will not be solved unless and until the black box, the data recorder and cockpit voice record remember found and they presumely are at the bottom of the mediterranean sea. >> rose: thanks, mark. egyptair expressed condolences to the families of those on board. most were from france and egypt. holly williams is in cairo.
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>> families came to cairo's airport today looking for answers. but there weren't any. no bodies, and so far no explanation. i want to know where my son is said this man! what is the government doing? >> this woman told us her husband's neice was one of the flight attendants and had just gotten married. egypt's civil aviation minister said he didn't know what caused the plane to go down. but had strong suspicions. >> terrorism is the most likely cause. >> but again,. >> it's been a disastrous year for he gip shan aviation. gsh-- for egyptian aviation, a
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plane crashed killing all 224 people on board. a bomb was the suspected cause. and isis later claimed responsibility. egyptian airport security was tighterned after that tragedy but then in march a man hijacked an egyptair passenger jet forcing it to land in cyprus. his suicide belt turned out to be fake and a hijacker, according to the authorities had mental health problems. this series of incidents has raised questions about egypt's airport and airline safety. but the minister defended his country's record. >> nothing to do with egyptian air. >> its if its public statement they have been empath identifiesing how experience crew members were. according to the airline the pilot had more than 6,000 flying
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hours, including more than 2,000 on the same model of aircraft. >> rose: we continue here in this studio with debra hersman and michael hanna. >> threr's going to want the four corners of the airplane, the wings, the nose the tail, and really look at the evidence that they have. and that will help them to understand the sequence of events and also where things might have originated if it was a failure, a mechanical failure or an explosion. they can get that information from the physical evidence. >> rose: also this evening, john dikerson on the political race in america. >> the train is ef looing the station and also hillary clinton. i mean republicans do not want her that is another reason donald trump is bringing up the clinton years. he wants to create a sense of, you know, hillary clinton wants to talk about the job legacy during bill clinton. he wants to talk about the-- of the clinton years and that to republicans reminded them to stay focused on who the real
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enemy here is for donald trump and that's hillary clinton. >> rose: and we conclude with bryan cranston playing lyndon banes johnson in hbo's "all the way." >> i was fortunate enough to go from walter white and the complexity of that man to lyndon johnson. complex in different ways. and but far greater a man than walter white ever was because of his altruistic nature. >> rose: what happened to egyptair 804, a conversation with john dikerson and bryan cranston when we continue. >> funding for charlie rose is provided by the following. >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and
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information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. we begin this evening with egyptair flight 804, the plane crashed on its way from paris to cairo. it disappeared from radar over the mediterranean sea on thursday, 2:45 a.m. cairo time after making two abrupt turns. according to the airline, it was carrying 56 passengers and ten crew members. as of the taping investigators have found some of the wreckage but have yet to confirm the cause of the crash. the egyptian minister said at a news conference in quie row that an act of terrorism was more likely than technical failure. >> it coming after terrorists bombed a jet killing all 244 people. in march a airplanes with hijack
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following a standoff that resulted in no injuries. joining me is deborah hersman. she previous served as chair mern of the national transportation safety board. here in new york, michael hanna of the century foundation. i'm pleased to have both of them here on this program. deborah, let me begin with you. what do we know now and what does it indicate? >> they have certainly looked at the radar track. there is probably going to be a couple of different sources of information for them to take a look at. there is civilian radar but there is also military radar, there sin tell against information that will be coming in and they're probably going to try to overlay all of that and corroborate the information they have from the different sources to create a mo sayic of sorts so they can see the picture a little more clearly. this is going to be an international effort where a number of sources are probably going to aid in that effort. >> rose: michael, any evidence that this is terrorism? >> well, it's surprising at this really early stage of the
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investigation how of the issue has come up already. a lot of intimation that in fact it is terrorism. now i lack the technical expertise to comment on whether the sort of turn of the plane suggests terrorism. but clearly, the egyptian aviation minister has mentioned this. we have reports of sourcing with american officials and other european officials suggesting this. so it looks that way. but obviously, one can't be too sure. >> rose: is there anything to be said about what could have been the cause of this if it wasn't an explosion, deborah snr. >> you know, i think it really is very early in the investigation. they're in the first 24 hours. and so they will certainly be looking at things like mechanical failure, human error. there are a number of different things. the weather dubt seem to be a factor at this point. but they will be looking at all of those pieces. >> and you know, some of the evidence that they're going to need would be the same whether it's a safety or a security
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event, they're going to want those recorders. they're going to want to have the four corners of the airplane, so to speak, the wings, the nose, the tail and really look at the evidence that they have. and that will help them to understand the sequence of events and also where things might have originated if it was a failure, a mechanical failure or an explosion, they can get that information from the physical evidence. >> rose: i would assume things they have going for them right now is the fact that they found debris, number one. number two, they know something about possible width and depth of the accident scene, or the scene of where the plane hit the water. and that says something about how they might find the recording box, yes? >> very helpful to have such good radar coverage in this area. and the fact that the debris is showing up so early. that's going to narrow their search field. the mediterranean is a heavily
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traveled sea. and so they're going to have a lot more sense when it comes to the recovery operations about what their challenges are there. i think it's a good time of year and the weather can certainly be a help to them as they execute those operations. there's a lot of international resources in that area that can be brought to bear. >> rose: what should be the conversation at this point about this tragedy? >> well, clearly people are going to think about terrorism looking at the context in which this happens. you mentioned the metro jet crash. >> rose: right. >> you know, egypt has suffered from a variety of security issues for several years now. there's low-level insurgency in the sinai peninsula lead by an isis affiliate. mainland egypt has suffered from various kinds of antistate and anti-regime violence focused on police and armies. and more recently, we've seen now the sort of development, the evolution of envelope terrorism, focusing on things like civilian
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aviation, and so this would be one more very serious incident that egypt has suffered in recent months. and you know, there's been no good news for equip-- egypt of late and this would be in keeping with that, really. >> or with respect to the idea that france has been a target. >> absolutely. so this, if it is, in fact, terrorism we have this egypt angle which we just discussed. but we also then have the possibility that this is potentially security breach in europe. and of course coming on the heels of the attacks several months back in belgium, this begins to look like a worrisome trend and is going to exacerbate political issues that are really royaling the-- roiling the entire continent. >> rose: i keep asking this, starting this morning on cbs. why can't we or should we be developing even streaming, some way of being able to have outside evidence of what's going
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on in a plane that's not depend ent on finding things that are in the sea? >> there have been absolutely a lot of people advocating for something like this, for many years. it really comes down to costs. and the technology, the band width and so that is a lot of information to be sent. but it's not something that is impossible from the tech knowledge-- tech nolg perspective. they already send data back. the question is just how often, how frequent that is, and what triggers sending back reports whether it's on maintenance or the operations center. and so there is the ability to do it. it is just that it hasn't been mandated across the board for all phases of flights. >> rose: and why not. >> i would say cost is the biggest factor here because at the end of the day you think about all of the data that you could stream. and airplanes now are so sophisticated, they're not just recording 13 parameters. they're recording 1300
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parameters. and so deciding which nrvetion you shend back, is it thrust, is it control surfaces, what are you providing and do you send all of that immediately in realtime. what do you want to capture. and so there is a lot of work that would need to be done to do this. but at the end of the day it really does come down to the extent that it would, you know, really require to do this. >> rose: somebody would have to require some kind of-- that kinds of technological equipment and countries have to ask themselves, should we mandate this, should we demand this in the way we demand certain kinds of safety items on a car. >> that's right. and this is absolutely a situation where trying to identify risk, trying to identify the high priority areas, and trying to identify what you want to send back. there has to be some prioritization that would take place place even if we were to go down this path because
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implementation wouldn't happen across-the-board. would you have to face it in. >> thank you for joining us. >> thank you, deborah, very much. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: we'll be right back. stay with us. >> rose: the political campaign heats up and joining me now is john dikerson, political director of cbs news, also the anchor of "face the nation," welcome back, sir. >> thank you, charlie. great to be here. >> so here we have the democrats fighting, bernie sanders does not want to go he believes what? >> well, right,-- right, he doesn't want to go he wants his message to be protected. he built a movement. but what is happening now is he wants that to be protected. and now what's happening is there a fight over whether he is being railroaded of his moment and his movement. which means he wants toic ta the votes all the way through to california and washington d.c. and he feels like the system has been stacked against him. so the question now is whether these fights, there is this very roiling intricate fight in nevada it becomes a larger part
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of his argument which is that the elites have rigged system in the democratic party and that meshes with his larger argue which is that the elites have rigged the economic system. and will he keep that fight going not only to the convention but then afterwards? or will he find a way to put it back in the box and say we fought the good fight. i was beaten fair and square. and now i hand this case off to hillary clinton where she can prosecute on my behalf. >> rose: or the unimaginable. he says this is a growing movement that i am ahead of. we may even consider a third party candidacy. >> they said so far they won't. they said they will stay in the democratic party. but you never know. one of the things that happened in this fight over nevada and the back and forth now because you've got the debbie wasserman-schultz, democratic party chair is suggest that sanders has been insighting this violence. and sanders sees that and thinks
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that is kind of an effort to suggest that it basically push him out of the race wnd calling her pro-clinton. >> right, and saying the system has been stacked against hmmmm all along. so its-- if tempers get flairing and that heated then he could perhaps, so the problem also is logistics, running as a third party, getting on the ballot is hard to do. >> rose: do you know anything from all your reporting about what she is doing in reaching out to him, to get him to say to him, what can i do to bring you on board. what is it you need, want, for your supporters. >> right, they've tried to do-- the problem with that, they've tried through senators, his friends, to have conversations with him. the problem with those conversations is that if you start having them too early-- early, are you showing him the door. so and they've tried a number of gambits. hillary clinton has tried to say look, when i was behind barack obama by a smaller margin than bernie sanders is behind me now, i recognized it was over. and i kind of did the right
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thing. that's glossing over the history a little bit. there was real contention between clinton and obama in 08ee. but i think they have been trying to play this delicate dance which is let him have his movement, an extraordinary thing. because if they honor that and let it go through the rest of the process then that will potentially make it easier for him to come into the fold. so the question of what he wants though are you know, anywhere from a lot of different policy things to what would a night of bernie sanders at the convention look like. that's essentially what ted kennedy got in 1980, an entire night to serve him and his ideas which means not just bernie sanders speaking but a whole night built around his themes. that would be a great gift to him it would honor what he created but it would also be unpredictable and potentially have what happened in 1980. which is ted kennedy becomes a liberal hero out of that convention and jimmy carter the nominee is a little bit sort of secretary fiddle. >> and went on to lose to ronald reagan.
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>> and carter basically believes, of course he would believe this, but he thinks kennedy's challenge in 1980 undermined him in a way that made it impossible for him to fight on two feet against reagan. you could see if sanders keeps the fight up and really keeps it going in philadelphia some clinton people saying wait a minute, you're handing this election to donald trump. >> who is going to win in california. >> based on everything we know, hillary clinton will win kal kalg. >> by a wide margin. >> we've seen in some places michigan, wide par begin, she ends up losing. then in new york, her margin was bigger than people actually thought it was going to be, in new jersey things look good for her and in california they look good. so you know, i think a win is going to be a win for her. and then there's the math which is basically for him to beat her in pledged delegates. you have to do something that is almost math mathically impossible. >> rose: turn to the republicans and donald trump and what he is doing in a sense to union fie his party. i mean what he has been doing over the last several days is attacking bill clinton. >> yeah.
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>> rose: an her with what objective? show to drive down whatever connection there may be between women that might not be heading to support her and bring them over to the republican fold? >> i think he's got a couple of objectives here. one is to act as i break against attacks on him. his argument is you play the woman card against me. this is how i am going to respond. >> rose: i'm a counterpunch he says. >> right. and if you put it in the frame of counterpunching then it seems like oh, well, it's an equal attack. but that's not the case. he is using an asymmetric kind of attack. if he is being attacked on family leave, he's responding with bill clinton. if he's having a story in "the new york times" written about his relationship with women, he's talking about bill clinton. the clinton campaign didn't put the story in "the new york times," right. but what he is doing is basically saying if you want to go in this direction and talk about relationships with women, then i have got plenty to talk about too.
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and that's got to cause some pause for the clinton campaign because of this reason. it puts the race and the turf that he's more comfortable with which is the kind of street school yard fight. >> rose: and a bit assymetrical. an also it's an ugly history there with bill clinton and his relationship with monica lewinsky and some of these other charges. >> and the question he wants to raise is did she, not show sisterhood with the women who were the victims. >> well, that's right. an important feminist argument is basically all victims should be listened to. and no victims make up lies. well, if that's the argument, then what about these women who said these things about your husker she was asked about that at a campaign event. she said well, she believes victims should be believed in the women and then if the facts don't wear that out that is complicated territory and not a conversation she wants to have she wants to be talking about anything but that. >> rose: but at the same time, he continues to bring it up and so it continues to be an issue. >> he doesment and he knows how
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to play the media too. >> rose: yes, he does. there is one thing we know about the 2016 campaign-- campaign. donald trump understands media. >> and he understands new media and he understands that a conversation can take place whether the gate keepers of traditional media want to have that conversation take place or not. it's going to happen in social media and it's going to get picked up. and he has more control over that. and that is not because the gate keepers are being lazy, it's because they don't have the role they used to have. >> rose: he also announced people he would consider for supreme court nomination. i assume that is to satisfy the conservatives in the party who have had some real problems with him, even though they supported ted cruz. >> yes. he is also normalizing. is he saying i'm a nominee and i'm starting to do things nominees and president do. forget about all this stuff in the past and recordings you you may have heard about things i said. i'm a can disat now and i'm doing candidate-like things. and in this kaises he is saying hey, focus on the supreme court.
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because what you want say warm body with a republican next to their name. in the oval office who will name maybe three justices, he said. if the race comes down to that, everything else is secondary because the supreme court will look in social issues in law or not, for the next 40 years, maybe. and so you can worry, he would say, about my personal life but who cares. the court is the thing. and so this puts focus on that. so it's both his credentials but more important it's keeping the conversation about a thing that will get conservatives to say oh gee, i may have all these reservations about him. i may not line up with any of his policy positions which is an extraordinary thing, it is also happening. i don't pleef him on x, y and z but they do agree on the court that is a place for him to find common cause. >> and they appreciate the consequences as you say. but he comes to new york, his home and meets with henry kissinger. >> yeah. kissinger told chris christie when he was noodling around in 2012, don't worry about lacking any foreign policy concern, you
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can learn it. that is what we are seeing here. and that's the argument here. so if i-- . >> rose: that say scary idea. >> well, anybody who has been in that, i talked to secretary bob gates who you have loved interviewing over the years. and gates says, first of all, you can't win it all but secondly, if you're going to be taking lessons from people or taking a lot of advice, you have to listen to it. and so the notion that you can get up to speed quickly or have advisors around you who can fill up your weaknesses is one question. but the secretary is, are you going to listen to them. and the further point that gates made which i think is interesting an which you know, is you have to is somebody on your staff who tells you no. and tells you no, and makes you do what you are-- saves you from yourself. and all presidents say that that is a crucial thing, they often don't listen. >> rose: and the fourth thing is that they can give you all the information they v and they can toodel you all they can but in the end you have to have
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judgement. you have to have an architecture to make that kind of decision. in the end, these are big gitions-- decisions and presidents have to make them. all the advisors in the world will not make the right decision. >> i'm smiling because the first time i heard that point articulated was hugh-- telling me a story about henry kissinger who said just that. you can have all of the information in the world and at some point you just have to leap. what gives you-- what tells you when to leap and when not to leap. that's instinct, that's judgement, character, values that you have created over a whole career that you don't get from a briefing. >> rose: the republicans seem to be falling in line. >> they really seem to be falling in line. i mean there are those who make michael guesserin, speech writer for george w. bush had a colume in "the washington post" and said you know donald trump had said the republican establishment is week and cappity lating and now in their behavior of falling in line behind him they are proving him right. which is that there is-- there is the never-trump movement, the
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notions of a third party, that saul going away. and the more trump gets-- the more that people fall in line, the more people are going to fall in line. and also of course. >> leaving the station and all that. >> the train is leaving the station and also hillary clinton. republicans do not want her, and that is another reason donald trump is bringing up the clinton years. he wants to create a sense of, you know, hillary clinton wants to talk about the job legacy during bilt clinton. he wants to talk about the mitchigas of the clinton years and that to republicans reminded them to stay focused on who the real enemy here is for donald trump and that's hillary clinton. >> one other issue, money. donald trump has got to raise a lot of money. hillary clinton raised a lot of money but she does as well. is he the more interesting character in that case because he ran one of the pilars of his primary candidacy was that anybody who gets outside money is bought by the people without donate. well, now he is putting together
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a fundraising operation with the republican national committee. and so he would be presumably opened to those charges. but he's got to raise the money to run a race here and he's facing superpac opposition. >> rose: sam adelson said he would support him strongly, he says. >> uh-huh, but under the old logic it means adelson owns him. and trump would never admit to that being the case. i thought adelson in his argue, why he was funding trump made a strong case. he said you may disagree with all my policy positions but i earned the right to make a case go leadership and executive leadership. and based on my experience, that is what i see in this candidate. the executive experience argument that i am hearing from a lot of people who are supporting trump but don't agree with any-- i have never seen a candidate where people support him and disagree with so many of his top policy positions. >> rose: or what he said. >> yeah. >> rose: or his style or his temperment or anything else. but at the same time, on balance, i'm going to support him. >> right. >> rose: whether it's supreme court, whether it's anti-hillary
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clinton, whatever it is. >> that's right. and this executive experience piece is another protrump argument that i am hearing a lot of, which is he is an executive. the second question then is okay, he's an executive. he has that talent which executives have. but then what is he going to use that talent in the scfer of because you say you don't agree with the policies. he will be very efficient at executing the things that you disagree with, there is a logical gap there. >> rose: politics is interesting. >> it is interesting. the worry though is that bernie sanders and donald trump have surfaced things that we knew were out there. but they're complicated and they're based on this general feeling that we've known about for a long time, the disappointment with washington. >> rose: an all constitutions and-- institutions and wall street. demg krats, more about wall street and the establishment. >> right. >> rose: as reflected by bernie sanders. republicans more about washington and.
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>> well, that's right. washington and in some cases unelected judges, in some cases the kind of political correctness, culture. >> rose. >> so those roiling factors that are out there are still real and have remedies that need more than just the circus of the campaign. in other words if wages aren't getting any better, those people are still going to be angry. if they feel like the system is still crooked, that anger and that part of the election is still really fascinating. and in a sense can sometimes get occluded by this other stuff. >> rose: it is an interesting thing. if you looked ahead after 2014 to the 2016 election, most people who looked at politics closely would have said the issue is going to be the economy. and there is this whole middle class is decreasing. and people look at their lives and they don't think their children will have as good of lives as they have. that is a big thing. they see that the the wages of
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people in the top 10% is increasing the disparity and we're left here. and this is america. and we always thought we would simply move forward. >> right. >> rose: so that issue we all thought would be there but it hasn't gotten a solution in terms of policies. but much more in terms of rhetoric. >> yaivment i think on-- so on the bernie sanders side as you said it is all about the banks. it is basically redot rules that relate to the operation of the banks. increase free college tuition so that you can increase the earning potential of people. build unions so that there is more bargaining power. there is a policy argument on the left. but much of the campaign has been about are you true blue or not, bernie sanders is really believes this stuff, democrats, some are sceptical of hillary clinton. and there is a question of incrementalism verse us adding a big vision there has been a lot more general talk even though there are policy ideas
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underneath. donald trump has had much weaker policy programs. he essentially has immigration and his-- he had a huge tax cut, and the muslim-- but his argument, you know, is appealing to the voters who are furious about what you talk about, but basically believe that a lot of it is because other people have gotten special privilege or special dealing, whether it is the least or the special groups that are getting jobs. >> rose: or the chinese. >> yeah, or the chinese, that say crucial point n both parties. the trade deals that have been arranged by elites. this goes all the way back into the 19th century where the eastern banks are making the deals that are ruining us. and the elites are making trade deals, that is the elite politicians but also the fancy business people. they all think globalism and trade is great because it benefits them. but we're the ones getting ruined by these deals. who cares if goods are cheaper, it doesn't matter, my jobs are going away. so that's right, that will be a huge question. but it's a bit more broad, that
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trade debate. it hasn't gotten policy specific. >> rose: great to you have here. >> always great to be here, charlie. >> rose: john dikerson from cbs news. back in a moment. stay with uls. bryan cranston is here. he reprices his tony award-winning performance as lyndon b johnson, a new hbo adaptation of robert schenken's play all the way. it depicts johnson's first year as president following the assassination of president kennedy as johnson attempts to pass the civil rights act. deadline rights that cranston has adroitly-- the incuters, vulgarities and sometimes newly overwhelmingly political talents of the 36 potus. here say trailer for "all the way." >> i keep having this dream. a comanche war party searches the house and it's only a matter of time before they haul me up into the light where their
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knives gleam. >> mr. president. >> accidental president, that's what they'll say. >> what are you fighting for, darling, in your heart. that's what the people need to hear. >> i urge you to enact president kennedy's civil rights bill in to law. >> it ain't going to be easy dr. king, this president is going to have to deliver an we're going to hold his feet to the fire until he does. >> we snt senate intend to filibuster this bill. >> if you get in my way, i will crush you. >> this civil rights bill just killed your election chances. >> if the government does not do with what is right, nonviolence will no longer be an option. >> is that a threat? >> out of the car, boy. >> everything wants power. they think it ought to be given out free of charge like mardi gras beads. nothing comes free.
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nothing. >> you think every southerner is going to start dancing to your tune? >> all we're asking is to live as see dent human beings. >> i'm trying to turn this country around and prevent a major war. >> it's what people want. >> it's time to act. >> step down to step down now will be wrong for your country. >> nobody's rendering. we're making history here. >> and you have to decide how you want history to remember you. the whole world. >> rose: i'm pleased to have bryan cranston back at this program. interesting we ended with that clip because lyndon johnson did not live to know how history might remember him or not. >> yeah, 1973 he died at the age of 64 of what he feared he would die of. and that's a fatal heart attack.
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>> rose: but he started smoking again. >> he did. that, you know, i think when he got on the chopper leaving washington at nixon's inauguration, he picked up a cigarette and he said i gave all my life to them. now i'm going to do for me. and he let his hair grow down, it was nice and curly and gray and smoked again and kept drinking. he was a man who really lived under his terms, you know. >> rose: yeah. but the point is that there is some today appreciation, this say good example of someone with talents-- other than vietnam. >> and so he didn't see it what is happening today. >> rose: two years ago when we were doing the play version on broadway, celebrated the 50th anniversary of the signing of the civil rights act in 1964. and it was appropriate to then
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look back and i think we were doing the play. and the anniversary. and a lot of people were writing columes. and looking back and what i call the revisiting of history as opposed to-- we weren't asking. >> it is revising. >> and there is a big distinct difference to it and i think if you look at the entirety of a man's legacy, yes, vietnam was his waterloo. it was a failure. and i think-- . >> rose: it took him down. >> it took him down. when it came march 31st, 1968 and he said i will not accept the nomination, i think that was because of that. but if you looked at his domestic achievements, it's towering what he was able to do. one of which is to create the corporation for public broadcasting. >> rose: i know, thank god for that. >> what we are watching right now. >> rose: but at the same time there was, i mean, there was this towering ego, towering sense of capacity to take things in his hands, and yet insecurity
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deep. >> massive, the highs and lows. tremendous ambition and guts and all that it takes to achieve at that level. and equally tremendous insecurities and doubt and frustration and remember bill moiers telling me about three days before the 1964 election when all the polls were saying he's in, by a significant margin, he said i don't want it, i'm going to go home, if the people don't love me, he was worried about something. and it was no, mr. president, it's all looking good. you're not going to go home, you're not going to quit the race, you're going to be able-- you know. and the people around him had to manage that aspect of him as well as counsel and guide the positive aspects of him. >> rose: you see that in the first clip we saw, they will
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always think of me as an accidental president. >> he was extremely worried about that. if he did not win the election on his own in 1964 he would have considered himself a failure. >> rose: you see the most interesting figure that you have in both in fiction or in reality, i mean was walter white more interesting than lyndon johnson? >> boy, i tell you, that's a hard one. if i can move the categories, fiction and nonfiction t makes it easier. he's towering, lyndon swron son, i was fortunate enough to go from walter white and the flexity of that man to lyndon johnson, complex in different ways. and but far greater a man that walter white ever was. because of his altruistic nature. but its with a big bite-- . >> rose: walter white had his
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intellect and his skills. >> he did. and he had his ego. and he was driven to succeed in that specific area of his life. made some poor choices as well, as we all do. i think you know, if you get old enough, and you've been in the game, you are going to make good and bad choices. i think warren buffett said to me when i asked him, so, is there a way you go about it. he goes yeah. he goes just make more good choices than bad ones. there you go. >> rose: peak speaking of presidents you spent a little time with president obama. >> i have. >> rose: i sawed little piece, not a leg pete, big piece in the new york times. >> it was. it was a surprise to me that i got the call. >> rose: what did they say, the president would like to see you? >> it came initially from the writer at the "new york times," table for three, philip. and they of course went to the office of the presidency first to see if you are you at all
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interested in this. and then it came to me. once he said yes, well then we could go. and that's the the way it was presented. i would like to do an interview with you and the president of the united states. he's already approved it. now it's up to me. i thought what day, cuz i might-- . >> rose: i can be there. >> yeah. >> rose: and what was it like? >> well, i had a couple different feeling. we worked for 45 days on "all the way" and the bullk of that was in a replica of the o vaf-- oval office and it was the exact size. and we did copious amounts of research to make sure of the accuracy of the decor and the pictures and everything. so that when i walked into the oval office this time i thought yeah, this is familiar. i like the place. and i heard you are leaving. you're going to put it on the market, you know. there is a-- . >> rose: that was you. >> that was me. and i probably, it's just a default mechanism to try to get
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relaxed or comfortable in some environment. >> rose: what did you talk about? did you talk about i guess what the writer asked you. >> uh-huh, yeah. what's really nice is that i found him charming and bright and funny and engaging. and any one who can make a guest feel comfortable and relaxed in their own home or their own work environment, that's a nice quality to have. >> rose: what surprised you about him. >> there was never a time when i didn't realize that he was the commander in chief, that he was the president of the united states. and i disonlt mean that in a way of presenting himself as being better than anyone or anything like that. but there was a dignity to his exortment that i appreciated. that i want in my president. >> rose: but at the same time, people talk about lyndon johnson as the best friend african-americans have had in
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the white house. >> i think there's a lot of truth to that. especially during those times. >> rose: john louis says that. >> well, he was there. >> rose: andrew young says that too. >> yeah. and they were very helpful coming to the play and being supportive of the film. being able to tell this story as honestly as possible. you need consultants like that. you need people who were there, who knew the man, dorris concerns goodwin, dik goodwin, bill moiers, joe, it goes on and on, people who helped us and helped me personally. >> did you talk to each of those. >> yeah. >> just and read the books and you know, they opened their hearts and their minds to me. and allowed me to pick their brains and ask what it was like. and you know, to try to get a sense of the man so i'm not doing an impersonation. but i am paying homage to him in the most honest way to be. >> rose: yeah, but you're not doing an impersonation of him
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for sure but at the same time through the wonder of what it ever it is that happens for two hours before you go on stage t is a remarkable physical resemblance. >> thank you. she had thin lips and beady eyes so thank you, charlie. >> rose: that's what it was. >> yeah, i'm sleully closer to-- . >> rose: beady eyes, thin slips. >> he had the scwinty eyes, thin lips. in makeup you can actually do a lot of i had cheek-- implants. >> rose: right. >> i had a chin added. i had a nose. i had ears that poked my ears out but also elongated them. >> rose: yeah within and i put on a bunch of weight like 15, 16 pounds to get his girt. and i was in lifts that almost added three inches to me. i was completely done up. >> rose: were you not the same person. >> it was not the same person. but it was an honor to slip into those shoes. it really was. >> rose: i never met him but to see all the video that i have
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seen and then to see i. >> it was really remarkable. >> rose: and it boxers. >> yeah, it does work. it's-- and it also shows the complicated relationship that he had with martin luther king, that our film that is written by also the playwright robert schedge-- schenken, he shows the political acumen of both men and how they jockied for position and trying to feel each other out and realized the two men i believe in my research that they had-- they knew that they were trying to get to the same goal. but their agenda and scheduling and timing was always different,. >> rose: dr. martin luther king, jr. says to lyndon john sorntion you tell lbj in no uncertain terms there can be no more changes to this or else he will look embarrassed in front of his own people and he can't have that. everything would be turned upside down. so that was it but martin lustre
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king knew very well that the real jewel in the crown was the voting rights act that happened in 1965 a year later. >> rose: with that you can change politics. >> that you change everything. because instead of the african-american community begging to be included now they get a voice. and then the politicians have to come to them and appeal to their sensibilities and their intellect. and it changed things. unfortunately, things stay the same and they change. and we have suppression of rights and ease ability. we have jerry mannedderring that is going on. and the intent of the law has been abused and hopefully that will change back so that we realize the value of each person having a voice. that's what we should stand for. that's what should be our
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hallmark. >> rose: the relationship with moier, friend of mine, i worked with him, is the most interesting and complex and undefinable for me. people who were close to lyndon johnson said he was like a son. >> uh-huh. >> rose: but he left, he left the white house. >> he did. >> rose: john sorntion you know him better than me. >> well, i don't know if i knew better than you. because you knew bill so well. he's a terrific man and a brilliant journalism--ist. and i was able to silt down with he and his wife judith. a story that judith told that was relayed to me and to robert schenken, and we didn't have it in the play but we put it in the movie, to show the impact that lady bird had on lbj. and it is a moment when you know back if the day, in our yowlt,
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there were significant represents on every coffee table in every house. >> rose: right. >> and so the rant was the same. and at one point, lb swrrks would pick up a cigarette. and light it and just start smoking. land lady bird wouldn't dare want to embarrass him or scold him or anything so she just would in front of company pick up a cigarette herself and light it. as soon as she did, lb swrrks saw that, he did not want her smoking. so she is smoking and he just-- put his out. and then she would put hers out. not a word was spoken. >> a great story. >> but bill moyers was very helpful. he has a wonderful quote, 11 of the most interesting people i have ever met was lyndon johnson. >> that's great. and do you feel that way yourself in terms of trying to understand him? >> i think. so he say complex man.
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and one thing that really triggered for me, as an actor the character is outside of you. and until you do all the research and all the time and energy put into it, you hope and trust that that character will at some point seep into your soul through osmosis for lack of a better term or accurate term. and until that does, you're constantly working. on the second time i went to the lbj library in austin texas which is a terrific library, by the way. i noticed a letter from jackie kennedy addressed to the new president, five days after the assassination. and she wrote dear mr. president, thank you so much for walking behind jack on pennsylvania avenue. behind the kason. i know you didn't need to do that. i'm sure the secret service told you not to. please don't. but you did anyway. and it brought love and respect to the man. thank you also for taking the time to write two letters to my children about how your love and
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respected their father. they don't know it now but in time they will. and i thought this man who ascended to that role after that tragic condition took the time to write to two quhirn when the responsibility of the unbelievable burden of the presidency, taken over like that, is on top of you. and he wrote these two letters. that meant everything to me. it seeped into me and i said there's the soul of that man, the goodness of that man, as crude as he may be on the outside, as rough around the edges as he may be, that's his center. and it meant a lot. >> rose: and he also understood continue out in america. he wanted her in a photograph from the plane. >> yes. >> rose: when he took the oath of office. >> yeah. he felt it would be terribly disrespectful if she was not included. of course she's in shock and everyone is upset. and no one really knows the protocol or what to do or how we should arrange things or where do we sit or do i have-- so it
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was a mess. >> rose: how do you come to understanding him on vietnam. because we know there were conversations. >> uh-huh. >> rose: with russell. >> uh-huh. >> rose: richard russell, chairman of the senate armed services i think. >> uh-huh. >> rose: on the phone. cuz russell had been like a father to him in the senate and had helped him are respect to the south although defending his own position. >> yeah, that's the saddest chapter in his life is that he was a domestic man. he really didn't want the burden of the international foreign relations. he wanted to focus on making america better. >> and things were handed to him. >> he was built-- he inherited the situation of vietnam from the kennedy administration. robert mcnam ara was very much of a go getter, hawkish kind of i guy, i believe in what i have read is that in every move it
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was advised that if we do this sa sawlt, we do this escalation, we will break the back of the north vietnamese and it will be over. and he reluctantly said do it. and it didn't work. mr. president, this will do it, do it, and ultimately if he-- he is responsible. and he knew it he failed in vietnam. >> he knew what it was doing to his presidency. >> he knew what it was doing. he could not find the answers. and he also must admit that i think he also had the political hu bris that he didn't want to be the first president to lose a war. >> rose: he said it. >> yeah. >> rose: i think he said that to richard russell. >> yeah. and but he knew instinctively that this was a bad deal and there is a no-win situation here. and yet because of that hanging over him, he continue-- it continued. >> rose: here is what i don't understand about lyndon swron
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son in part. he went and received a silver star. >> uh-huh. >> rose: there were a lot of people who made greater sacrifices, risked their life differently. he was a member of congress. and you would think that he would know. >> yeah. it's sad. of course in retrospect-- in retrospect you look and you go thats with a mistake, clear, clear and simple. have we learned from those mistakes, not always. hopefully clearer heads will guide us in the future. but i think it's fair as we said in the outset thatafter all this time is to revisit his legacy. both in what he was able to achieve dommestically and honestly look at what he failed at in his foreign policy. >> rose: has this in anyway, may have been at a high level before, whetted your appetite for history and biography. >> i love it. i love it. i-- you become like a mini nerd
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for a short period of time. but unfortunately, i am then charged with okay, that's over. now i have to go do this. and you study this over here. and then someone asks you a question about the presidency and you go ooh, wait a minute, i forgot that part. you know. you have to bone up on it again. and it is fascinating. and here we are in 2016 with the most unprecedented presidential election ever. >> rose: unbelievable. >> the question is is it transform tiff or an exception. will it be different because donald trump has such mastery of social media so far. we now see a series of celebrity candidates or is he an exsemtion and whatever happens to him. >> well, i believe a few things. first of all, i don't hesitate to think that donald trump loves this country. i believe he does. >> rose: i do too. >> i absolutely believe that what he believes.
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>> rose: and does hillary clinton and-- bern. >> i think for all of our sake let's give each other that much breathing room and respect off the top. once you do that, i think it's hard then to say he's destroying, he's going to-- you know, then the finger pointing say little-- is lessened, i think. the. >> rose: at the same time you could ask a series of questions having to do with all candidates and not specifically donald trump. what are they prepared to do and what line are they prepared to cross in order to serve their ambition. >> right. that is the big x factor with donald trump because nobody knows. not even donald trump. >> rose: i agree with you. great to you have. >> thank you, charmie. >> rose: pleasure, bryan cranston, all the way on hbo, premiers saturday may 21s, this saturday at 8 p.m a remarkable lyndon johnson
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understanding history. thank you for joining us. see you next time. for more about this program and earlier episodes visit us online at and charlie 7 captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh
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>> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide.
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man: it's like holy mother of comfort food.ion. kastner: throw it down. it's noodle crack. patel: you have to be ready for the heart attack on a platter. crowell: okay, i'm the bacon guy. man: oh, i just did a jig every time i dipped into it. man #2: it just completely blew my mind. woman: it felt like i had a mouthful of raw vegetables and dry dough. sbrocco: oh, please. i want the dessert first! [ laughs ] i told him he had to wait.


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