tv Charlie Rose PBS June 30, 2016 12:00pm-1:01pm PDT
>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with the aftermath of the terrorist attack at the istanbul airport in turkey. we talk to ian bremmer, richard engel and steven cook. >> everywhere you look around, you have two and a half million refugees sitting in turkey. and that they're paying are to. it's of course one of the reasons they continue to have a bigger issue with terrorism every day, lots of fore infighters coming back from syria and iraq. i mean this is a witch's brew, and if you're president erdogan who? the best of stays has challenges governing in a sustained way, you're not going to have an easy time. >> i think isis is recognizing that it is getting much more propaganda value in its external attacks than it ever gets in its internal attacks. if you just look at cost benefit analysis, if you're going to send a group of suicide bombers
to attack an assad checkpoint or kurdish patrol, no one will notice it, really. maybe a youtube video can be generated that gets barely any attention. but if they are able to carry out an attack in paris or brussels or istanbul the world takes notice. and as they lose territory at home, those kind of attacks become more and more important. >> and we close this evening with the remember ans and preeshes of the great pat summitt, a coach of the lady balls at the university of tennessee who died at age 64. >> charlie, the thing that i like so much about coaching is that i get to teach on a daily basis. i get to influence. i get to listen. no two days are ever alike. so i love the fact that i am working with different individuals and personalities and now i'm trying to mold them into a team. it's a challenge but what great
rewards when you see little girls become young women. when you see them go from being shy, nonaggressive to being really strong and aggressive and just really, they gain a lot of self-respect themselves. >> rose: the aftermath of the terrorist attack at the istanbul airport in turkey, and remembering pat summitt when we continue. >> funds for charlie rose is provided by the following: captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose.
we begin this evening with a terrorist attack in turkey, three suicide bombers killed at least 41 people and wounded more than 200 at istanbul's tuesday. turkish prime minister said there were indications that isis was responsible. here is tonight's report from the cbs evening news. >> these people sprinted for their lives, captured on security video just before one of the blasts tor through istanbul's main airport. and one of the attackers is captured in these shaky images after being shot down, he wrights on the ground before also blowing himself up. the attack was coordinated and bloody. three separate locations hit by three suicide bombers who apparently arrived by taxi. but it is just the latest in a spait of deadly bombings here in turkey. >> we came downstairs. >> thomas kemper of atlanta
georgia was waiting for a connecting flight. >> that really woke me up from this short nap. and then the shooting. you heard really gunfire. and then the people started running immediately. and you just ran, you just ran richard kalman of connecticut told us he and his wife spent three hours trapped inside the airport. >> there was really no place to go. no place to hide. hearingbout explosions and gunfire but not being able to get out is a frightening feeling. a feeling of terror. >> reporter: there's an extra layer of security at this airport. before you even get into the building. but it doesn't seem to have stopped two of the a tangors are from getting inside the terminal and then blowing themselves up am one of them just over there. >> that blast was in the arrivals area. another was at the entrance nearby. and a third was upstairs in departures. turkish media claims these images show one of the attackers inside the airport. and another dressed in a thick quilted jacket in the middle of
summer which would have aroused suspicion. >> tuesday's attack followed the announcement on sunday that tur quee and israel had restored diplomatic relations after six years, president erdogan also took steps to reconcile relations with russia this week after turkey had downed a russian fighter jet in noafer. president obama addressed the attack during remarks at the north american leaders summit in ottawa earlier today. >> we know this is part of our broader shared fight against terrorist networks. and we will continue to work closely with turkey to root them out. meanwhile we're going to do what is neses to-- necessary to protect our people. i'm confident that we can and we will defeat those who offer only death and destruction. and we will always remember even as there are those who are trying to divide us that we are stronger when we come together, and work toward a better world toblght. >> joining us is ian bremmer the founding president of eur asia
group. we will be joined by richard engel, the nbc news correspondent in is stand beul and has been reporting for nbc nightly news and from washington steven cook on the council of fore en-- foreign relations. we begin with ian bremmer here at the table. >> tell me about turkey, a place you and i both know well. >> it's been a tough year for them. i was actually just with the deputy prime minister yesterday. and in china. and he was feeling pretty good. it was literally hours before the attacks and he was finally they made some progress. they got erdogan to apologize to the russians. they felt that that was going to move on getting the economic relationship back on track. they've moved towards normalization with israel. he told me that he feels like a deal with cyprus is coming soon. i agree with that. it was the best day they would have in years if you are erdogan right now. you are, i mean, of all of the g-20 economies you are probably in the most geo political
challenging position. and-- . >> rose: because? >> because you've got sir dwran war-- syrian war which is not ending. you've got this kurdish crisis inside your country as well as increasingly moving towards independence in both syria and iraq, has the potential to tear your country apart. you continue to have challenging relations politically, economicically and militarily with the greek, the russian relationship continues to be some what challenging. hopefully that's going to improve. everywhere you look around, you have 2.5 million refugees sitting in turkey and they're paying for. it's of course one of the reasons why they continue to have a bigger issue with terrorism every day. lots of foreign fighters that are coming back from syria and iraq. this is a witch's brew, and if you are president erdogan who in the best of days has challengings governing in a sustained way, you are not going to have an easy time. >> they launched strikes against isis, did they not. >> they did, a number of strikes, over ten isis targets
in syria. but i will tell you, i've spoken to a number of senior washington officials. i've asked them do you think right now who is working more closely with the americans in the fight on syria, the turks, our nato ally or the russians. and to a person they say russia. >> rose: is working more closely. >> yes. >> rose: with the united states. >> believe it or not. more alineed with american interests in syria. >> rose: how do they define their mutual interest? >> well, i mean-- . >> rose: other than stopping this horrendous destruction of a country. >> it's more willing to focus on isis it's more willing to talk about a destructive diplomatic path. it's more willing to accept that there are rebels on the ground that could potentially be part of some unified government over time. the turks are still fore most concerned about the kurdish issue and isis has really been an afterthought. some in the administration
believe that turkey initially was actually facilitating isis to a degree, certainly in terms of getting their oil out before the americans were am booing that. it's a tough time for the turks. and let's be fair, it's a tough time for everything in europe, turkey plays into this. >> rose: i want to show you a conversation i had with joe biden talking about russia, suggesting essentially-- well, here it is, suggesting that they really would like to get out of syria. >> vladimir putin is in real trouble because of-- es he trying to figure out how the hell to get out of syria. it's costing him billions of dollars. the rest of the world is observing his fighters aren't that capable. they are showing where is he. they have a great problem in ukraine and europe now. his economy is in not-- almost free fall. this is a guy who's not winning anything. >> rose: but he's a player in the world. >> well, look, i mean he's a player in the sense that he is
engaged in practically, as a practical matter, sporting a dictator-- dictatedder who is il killing tens of thousands of his people. and so if-- if you call that a player. but is he influential in the world, no. >> a willingness on the part of russia to talk about a new constitution in syria where assad is still there but he doesn't have as much power, that's something that the russians have been willing to engage in with the americans. and i think that secretary kerry and the foreign minister have had some useful conversations. the russians though they said mission accomplished on syria a few months ago, they are still militarily engaging in a very serious way, including including in-- aleppo in the u.s and you saw who they believe will be secretary of defense under president clinton if she became president saying actually she would be able to support military engagement of the united staights directly in syria to try to stop assad from some of these attacks.
now i mean-- she wouldn't say that if it wasn't for hillary, no question. >> rose: let's assume she is secretary of defense and let's assume hillary clinton for this question is president, what would they do to stop? >> they said that they would have american forces that would be providing direct support to rebels in trying to reist -- resist some of these to make it more challenging. >> rose: how is it different than what they are doing now. >> it sounds like americans would be directly engaged in fight on the ground. >> rose: so boots on the ground so to speak. >> the potential for americans to be engaged directly in proxy war with the russians under that scenario. now she was careful to talk about the desire to continue to engage with the russians through this process. but clearly a sense from clinton and her folks, her surrogates that the willingness of the americans to escalate in syria should be greater than what we see presently in the obama
administration. then you have the issue of the kurds themselves moving towards independence. at some point it is clear the kurdish regional government in iraq, the kurds in syria, are moving towards not just awe ton me but their own states. whether they were declared states recognized or not. that clearly bleeds over into kurdish aspirations within turkey as well. >> rose: interesting i raise that question again with the vice president. here is what he said about par titioning. >> i still think it's the only way. and that is to have a capital-- capitol called baghdad that had control over the borders and foreign policy. but each of the regions which is the sunni region, the kurdish sunni region and the shia region which is in baghdad south, each of them should have the same kind of autonomy that california has. so to have a national army, that is kind of like our national guard made sense.
but to allow more autonomy in the region. >> rose: it still makes sense in your judgement. >> it still makes sense. >> rose: is that the realistic look. >> there is no question. i mean it's hard for me to imagine that a central iraqi government is going to be able to assert authority over sovereign borders the way they exist right now. let me make a broader point on this. so my firm eurasia group, we probably have spent 95% plus of our time talking about states aspirins pal actors in determining political outcomes on the ground. i think in the middle east today that percentage is more like 80. and in the next five years it's probably going to be closer to 50. >> rose: of nonstate actors. >> the regional actors for example like the kurdish regional governments. some of them are businesses, some of them are religious leaders, sectarian leaders, people like sus tani, some are terrorist organizations but when you have a bunch of failed states and also have states that
have nominal governance but can't really provide the legitimacy that is required to effectively govern their citizens, it's not a complete vacuum. there are other actors that matter. this is happening all over the world. but it's happening much more quickly with much more dramatic implications across the middle east. >> rose: what about china. what do they think about this. >> on the one hand it is a great deal of friendship and we're aligned on everything. on the other hand, didn't talk about brexit at all. it's so interesting to see how the chinese think of themselves first and fore most as an economic and commercial power. but publicly every other leader in the world has something to say about this. and putin and xi jing ping don't. i think it's prg, because they don't agree. >> rose: putin has spoken about it, not in china. >> putin has been generally well disposed toward the idea of the brits going their own way and a weaker europe that allows him to have more influence over individual countries. >> rose: and he hopes a weaker
nato. >> of course, a weaker nato, a weaker europe. the brits out because they have been taking one of the harder lines against the out of european union in terms of weakening sanctions. >> rose: harder than the germans. >> probably roughly about the same. i mean for different reasons. you know, in the case of the russians, the brits you have a lot of russian emigres. >> and the assassination, things like that. in the case of germany, there is rule of law, right, was a big part of it. ukraine was a bigger part of it. >> rose: speaking of what happened in the brexit vote, there are always suggestions that they may not be alone in wanting to exit the european union. there is obviously talk in france, there is obviously talk innetterlands, there is obviously talk in other places where there is an unhappiness about globalization. and there are populist politicians wanting to take advantage of the mood. >> the first point is that the
orientation in the media on this has been about all of these nasty populists that want to get rid of europe. and i accept that but we also need to recognize that europe has not been governing anything close to effectively. ever since the 2008 financial crisis when we talk about europe, we talk about kicking the can. which means we go from crisis to crisis and we come up with suboptimal outcomes that don't fix anything. if the brits had stayed in, they were going to stay in not just with an imperfect union but a union becoming more imperfect by the day. >> rose: what might they have figured. >> in terms of coordination-- . >> rose: fixed coordination. >> on the refugee shoorks for example, shengin is breaking down. a longer-term resolution on greece where there would have actually been a sustainable get situation for them and they could have gotten out from a fiscal perspective. none of the big crease ease that have been hit in terms of the europeans have actually been resolved. they have all been either push add side or not even half measures, right? and so while that's been going
on, there is a more significant problem which is within each of these countries, the social contract is falling away. and large numbers, increasingly large numbers of these populations are saying we do not trust any of these establishment leaders. we do not trust europe. we don't trust brussels. >> rose: you don't trust the idea of globalization. >> we don't trust the superra national identity that europe was meant to espouse and we don't trust our elites. so we want something other. >> rose: is the european union a failure? >> i think a couple of things that it was meanted to accomplish have failed. the creation of a set of common values that would hold true across europe in terms of governance. so things like rule of law, liberal democracy. a sense of super national identity where people would believe themselves to be european, and that would be
meaningful to them. i think that has inexorably failed. we can't look at a country like poland or hungary whose governments increasingly admire openly admire big aspects of russian political governance or chinese state capitalism. and say, and within the european union, and say that europe functions. originally europe was not meant to be an economic union. originally it was meant to be plilt kal-- political to ensure that you never want to war again. >> rose: do you think that chinese fake capitalism is a growing role mod snel. >> i wouldn't call it a role model. but when i was in china, one of the biggest things i did was have a panel the the general who runs the asian infrastructure investment bank, one belt, one road which is the trillion dollars that they are intending to spend sort of across the region and more broadly on infrastructure. the chinese are highly aware that they're building institutions.
they're spending money. outside their borders. the americans and europeans are not. literally the day that brexit was announced i was on the 65th floor of my hotel looking out the window and watching these massive towers getting built floor by floor 24/7. i think that that visual-- . >> rose: don't they have a huge overcapacity. >> they absolutely do. that is one of the reasons they are increasingly spend on infrastructure abroad is they are trying to create more markets for it the chinese are the one shoe that has not dropped since 2008. has been china. we have had-- we had the u.s. financial crisis. we're in the throws of this extraordinary. >> don't know what you mean of the shoe that has not dropped. >> otherwise, everyone has talked for such a long time about china hard lining, china political instability. so far in 2008 we haven't had these problems at all. >> we have had a dramatic downsides sizing of the growth rate. >> of course. >> rose: from double digits to
perhaps left. >> they say 6.7. the reality is surely lower. but if are you in china today what you recognize is consumer sentiments is still very high. patriotism is high, xi jinping has consolidated power it is not in anyway like the kind of problems we're experiencing right now in the u.s. and europe. and yet i came away from this trip for the first time in many years with a little bit of trepidation. >> rose: trepidation about? >> well, you know, the c.e.o.st i was talking to were carrying the party line. the government line, much harder, more consistently than they were before. implies a little bit of insecurity. >> rose: and you think what has changed? >> well, the growth rate is going down. and they're concerned about the global market environment. i mean europe falling part is good from the russian perspective. it's not good from the chinese perspective. >> because it provides markets in markets and markets. >> yeah, because if you are russia, your role in the world is much more about defense and zero sum. if you are china your role is economic and you actually want a
more stable market place, more robust market place. the chinese actually want a strong europe, right. they don't want a europe that is going to challenge them. but the europeans aren't challenging them. they are able to go in and have deals with germany, with britain. >> do they make it more of a level playing field between state-owned enterprises and others, even if they are chinese owned privately. >> i would say in some areas where they know they need the help, so you know, the stimulus that you see in china today is overwhelmingly towards the consumer. and so if you are talking about health care, you're talking about building out the ability to provide better pengses, people that can support that, anything that can support growing middle class consumption, hotels, for example, i think those american companies, western companies going into china are doing incredibly well, they have great opportunities. but where i see places where the chinese feel that they actually see them as strategic sectors, and particularly, i mean,
information technology broadly design-- defined, things that involve big data, the cloud, both surveillance and also the ability to determine who sees what, who buys what, that's an area that is becoming much harder for the americans and europeans and japanese to actually function as equals in china. that market place is becoming much more difficult. >> rose: can you imagine circumstances in which there is a right-wing populist uprising take over,s ahead of state in france? can you imagine that. >> not in the next election. i think that right now willpenn is out in front of xu pei and holland, in a second round environment where the other votes turn to whoever the remaining centrist candidate is, i think it's pretty clear that willpenn loses. so i'm not as worried about a referendum in france. i'm worried about a referendum in the netherlands, smaller country, but any of these places that have one suddenly it's one
more headline everyone has to focus on it. because you don't want a knock down effect. in the netherlands you have the freedom party and they are out in front now. you have elections coming up in a year's time. and while he is unlikely to win, he is likely to be the king-maker. in other words, whoever wants to govern will need him in a coalition. and his negotiating stands will-- stance will be i want a referendum. well then there is a good chance that the netherlands gets a referendum. if we see mr. rensi in italy, if he fails in his extraordinarily important referendum on constitutional political reform. >> rose: we saw what happened in rome, didn't we. >> in rome and in turin, the movement took over and took over big. now local governments in italy at the end of the day, not that important. but a pretty big slap in the facial for him. he handled it with his relentless optimism as he always
does, is he a floor entien. >> rose: they all have relentless optimism. >> you have been, yes, they do but are they going to be able-- if they don't get this win in october, and the polls right now are about 50/50 on it, then he's out. and the five-star movement by 2018 in italy could be governing. and they want a referendum in out on the euro, not on the european union but on the euro. in austria you could easily see a referendum. i mean there are growing populist movements in every one of these countries. and while i don't think you're going to see wins for these right-wing movements in the main european governments, at least not most of them, i do think it's going to effect the politics in every single one. the main thing that this means is the negotiations with the brits are going to be exption-- exceptionally sharp, they have to be. >> rose: so what do you think
the admonishment of angela merkel will be? >> well, she's of course the grownup in the room. she has-- in a sensed least to worry about dommestically, even though her popularity is down a lot from the highs, even though the finances. >> mainly because of migration. >> mainly because of migration, absolutely. but wolfgang is taking a much tougher stance on the brits. the alternatives for doachland which is the euro sceptic party in germany up in double digits consistently now. so she does have to worry about that populist flank. but it's less about that. if we could have a negotiation between a unified and sensible british government and angela merkel, we could end up with a norway style agreement where the brits have access to a common market, where they get rid of the promises to close their borders to immigrants, and where the markets are sensible. we all take a deep breathe and say okay, we dodged that bullet. but if you look at the way they've handled every
negotiation over the course of the past year, whether in cyprus, greece or any other country they had, the idea that this europe with this u.k. is going to have a nonacrimonious negotiation that will end in something economicically sensible is not a bet you want to make. >> rose: do we assume bore is johnson is the next prime minister or not? >> you know, now that michael gove who is with him on the leave campaign has said that he wants johnson, i think it's more likely than not. but it's not a slam dunk. johnson has not looked good since winning brexit. he has been defensive. he said oh, i don't think that immigration is what people were actually voting for. i mean it's like he was chasing the car. now he's got it, right. and what do you do? i think that there is a decent chance that we end up with someone else, theresa may, is who most of the brits in the tory party are talking about.
they call her, you know, sort of britan-- britain's merkel which you would think might not be so attractive from a british perspective but actually it's mebt as a compliment. and would certainly allow for something that could bring the conservative party more closer together. >> rose: there's also this question when you go to china, wherever else you travel, do they ask you about donald trump? >> yeah, everyone asks about trump. >> rose: what do they ask? >> the chinese, interestingly, anywhere you go in the world, again except russia. russians like the idea of trump, not just because he says nice things about putin but also because he would represent a weakening role of america in the world. and the russian was welcome that. but everyone else you talk to in the world thinks trump would be an unmitigated disaster, right. and-- . >> rose: the chinese. >> the chinese a year ago when i was talking to members of the chinese leadership, they would say consistently we don't want hillary. the one country that truly didn't want hillary because hillary was considered a hawk,. >> rose: they don't like
hillary because they think she's a hawk within the chinese think-- . >> rose: thought. >> she s i mean she is, but she was the one that was the architect for the pivot to asia, more american military in the region. >> rose: that is more the president than it was her. >> you know, you look at curt campbell, you look at hillary. they really believe that a lot of that-- and hillary's speech on economic statecraft, she was talking state capitalism, the concern of that model. obama has never actually brought that up, not once as president in seven years. that's interesting am but i tell you, you talk to the chinese now and certaiy on this trip, like you know what, we want hillary. and that's a good thing. it's really, it's not that we should all want hillary. but what i find really interesting is you know, the chinese as the world is becoming more unstable, the chinese are becoming much more of a status quo power. sure they still want the south china sea moving in their direction. they are still going to push against the tie want ease new nationalist government, on hong kong. but globally, they want a strong
europe. they want a strong u.s they don't want anyone rocking the boat. >> rose: i want to go to turkey and istanbul, richard engel from nbc news is there. richard, tellme what we know at this moment about who did what and where they are in the investigation. >> well, i think at this point we know mostly how they did what they did not necessarily who exactly. the suspicion in the united states and here among government officials is that this was an isis attack. and it was quite a coordinated attack. a rolling attack with the first militants, they aive radioed according to the prime minister of turkey in two taxi cabs. three militants got out. they were dressed in plain civilian clothe, not wearing masks. and then they opened fire at a security checkpoint. one of the checkpoints you need to cross to get into the
terminal itself. one of the suicide bombers detonated there at curbside as well. the gunfire, the explosion created panic, confusion, it allowed the other two attackers to get into the terminal itself. one of the attackers then blew up by the arrival station where people wait to receive their visitors, receive their loved ones. the other attacker on foot got a-- got not far from the business lounge by departures. and he was shot actually by police and blew up his device. but by then he had been shot, most people had been cleared away. so quite a sophisticate cod mannedo style assault which is one of the big reasons people think that isis was responsible. but so far the turkish government hasn't released any of the names, the forencics, the specifics of the investigation. >> rose: why didn't the isis take credit for this? why wouldn't it be in their interest to take credit?
>> isis very rarely claims credit for any of the violence that it carries out in turkey. primarily because turkey is an important homebase for isis. it's an important staging ground. this airport that was attacked is the main gateway for isis to the world. so isis when it has attacked in turkey in the past, it has done it to send a message to the turkish government. don't upset things. don't rock the boat. we are here. isis is here. and isis can create tremendous problems for turkey if turkey decides to go after it. and turkey over the last six months has really stepped up its campaign against isis. it has tightened up the controls along the border. it has made it much more difficult for isis members to flow in and out of syria. and i think isis is trying to tell turkey, unless the pressure stops, it's going to burn this country down. >> rose: and what is stur key going to do then?
well, i think turkey has already made its bed at this stage. it has decided to go after isis. and now after this devastating attack, i think it's going to go after it much harder. you've already seen a flavor of the response so far. the airport is open again. remarkably, within hours of the attack, the airport opened up, even as crews were in there cleaning up the glass, cleaning up the bullet holes from the walls, replacing panels. people were walking through with their bags, wheeling their luggage carts around construction crews, around investigators to get to the check-in counter. a very bizarre scene but one that is deliberate by the turkish government to say we're not going to accept this. we're not going to let isis shut the country down and shut down this critical transportation hub. >> and so what does this do for erdogan-- erdogan and his own administration.
>> there's a lot of frustration already because the perception is that erdogan has fights on so many fronts. has a fight with the kurds. has a fight now with isis which many people in this country believe, many nonerdogan supporters believe that erdogan's government was partially responsible for creating. that erdogan policies allowed isis to flourish here, before the gun treaty started to crack down. that he was not just turning a blind eye to isis, but that he was allowing islamic extremists to function here knowing they would go into syria and fight against assad which was an objective that erdogan wanted to do and now there is a sense that his chickens are coming home to roost. that he allowed isis to set up a base. then he went after the group, and now the group is too diseeply entrenched to easily yeup root-- uproot. there is also a bit of intelligence that i think is important to understand in all
of this. about two weeks ago we reported on nbc nightly news that there had been a specific bit of intelligence. we were told by u.s. counterterrorism official that isis had staged, had advanced staged 35 actually more than 35 of its fighters from syria into turkey to carry out attacks during the month of ram dan. and-- ramadan and i was told that this attack was highly likely to be related to that deployment of isis fighters to carry out attacks in ramadan. and the big concern is ramadan
is this attack go to be on erdogan to try to work more closely with the americans and europeans, we saw this with the russians. simply with sanctions from the russians, with tourism, basically disappearing. dealing with two and a half million refugees, they are paying for. and the knock-feblghts on the war in syria and internally. now they have taken this terrorist hit. if they are going to start fighting isis in a more serious
way, are they going to be working more closely with the americans? are they going to be able to actually implement this deal between themselves and the germans, the eu on refugees, on visa liberalization, so far the indications have been very negative. will this attack be enough to push erdogan away from all the ego and say you know what, i'm going to swallow that. have i to work with these guys, or is it going to make him dig in, i would be very interested on richard's and steven's view on that. >> rose: richard first and steven. >> i think erdogan has dlready given indication that he's trying to change his policies a bit. that he reconciled with israel, burying the hatchet after that flot ila incident which had been a long thorn between israeli and turkish relations which in years past have been quite good. he's burying the hatchet with puttin. there was by all accounts a
friendly conversation between the two of them today and russia actually even to fight this attack lifted its recommendation that russian citizens don't come to turkey for holiday. will he then improve his relations with the yeunded states and go after isis? i think he probably will. and he already has been going after them in a big way. the real-- over the last six months or so. but the real problem is, are they so deep rooted in this country that by going after them, he finds that this country, or parts of this country have been like pesha-wa. that once you going the main gateway t is very hard no matter how much will you have, to get rid of this problem after it is so entrenched. >> rose: steven. >> i certainly agree with that. let me add another dimension to erdogan's trouble here. he certainly has without, it goes without saying, demonstrated a practicing mat -- pragmatic streak at least this week. but that's israel, that's russia. we're talking about isis, isis
at home which is a threat, but in order to accommodate himself to american policy, erdogan has to climb down from first his declaration that bashar al-assad must go and that united states and its allies must do something about it. and he must accommodate himself to working with syrian kurds, the people's protection units known as the ypg. this group has been an effective ally of the united states in the fight against isis. but it's widely regarded to northbound turkey an arm of the pkk, the terrorist organization that the turks have been fighting. can they climb down from this question of fighting the pkk, and ypg. that's going to be very, very difficult in turkey's political environment. >> well, i would say that a lot of people have been tempted to try and ride this tiger in the past, using the passion, the discipline, the focus, the violence of islamic militant groups to a-- achieve their
objective. and it never tends to work. sadat used them in egypt to try and establish his base and make himself look different from nasser and the militants went around and turned around and assassinated him. they used them in pakistan with help from the united states and saudi arabia to topel the soviet's out of afghanistan it ultimately lead to the 9/11. erdogan used these militants to fight against president assad and he like all the others before him, has been unsuccessful in trying to ride this tiger. >> rose: richard engel, thank you for joining us. we continue with ian and steven, steven, what is the next step do you think in this question of where goes turkey now? >> well, i think that there is no question that the turks are going to ramp up their operations against the islamic state if that's in fact who they
believe is responsible for this. and as richard pointed out over the course of the last six months, they've been more directly targeting the islamic state. there have been drag nets that have picked upician lambic state sim pathizers. at the same time i expect that the turks will also continue their military operations againsted pkk. the problem here is that everything that the turks are going to now do are things that they've already been doing. they may have been doing them ambivalently. but there's no real assurance that they can arrest this kind of deterioration in their security. as richard pointed out, there is an extremist infrastructure that has grown up along the syria border there is a well developed military forces in the form of the pkk that is keeping the turkish military busy in the south eastern part of the country. i'm afraid that no matter what steps the turks take, they're going to be confronted with more blood letting in their streets.
>> and this is precisely why erdogan ended up having to back down against the russians and israelis. i'm sure that, it took himself enmonths on russia. this was clearly not something he wanted to do. but he felt increasingly vulnerable and he cut a deal. the question is, is it too late and is the challenge too great. right now we're talking about the international front. but he also has the domestic problems. you know, he just lost his prime minister, who was a strong guy and also a loyalist. but he couldn't lack it any more because erdogan was just mono maniacal saying i'm going to make myself the next sultan in sur key. and the fights he has internally against the gu lanists, and internal with anyone in his party with anyone who doesn't show 100% loyalty to him. >> indeed, social media et goes shut down immediately as soon as one of these attack, and anyone
that is remotely in civil society or a public intellectual has decided that they are a more tal enemy of erdogan at this poifnlt he has dug his own grave politically from a domestic perspective. so i think if it were just the international front and if he had a strong group around him, he would have a desent shot at. this unfortunately he's really fighting both a war internally to try to change the system. because this is a guy, let's keep in mind, if he's not able to get much greater powers for himself and immunity, that you know, he ends up either in exile or in a books box. it's very hard to see how he will have a democratic transition to the next person. he has far too many enemies he's gone after dommestically. so it's really difficult to know-- . >> rose: what about the military. >> the military is reasonably supportive of him right now. >> rose: even though they put him on trial. >> he did but what they don't want is a war in syria that
enormously unpopular to the people and the they don't want to fight it and erdogan as a consequence hasn't been able to go there. i think if it wasn't for that, you would probably have a buffer zone on the other side of the syrian border. >> rose. >> how do you see the circumstances today in syriain terms of the last six months of the obama administration? >> i don't think there will be much change in american policy towards syria. we're going to the last six months of the obama administration. the president has clearly made his decision. i do think though that turkish effort to reconcile with the russians and the israelis presents a number of intriguing possibilities when it comes to syria. the fact that eds wan had to climb down on the rush arnes raises the possibility he may have to climb down on assad. if he does that there is always the possibility that a diplomatic opening could emerge. there the fact of the matter is is that you have isis, a slew of-- slew of other extremist groups, the other parts of the
syrian opposition, and the assad regime that are all determined to fight this thing out. so that regardless much what is kind of leverage the russians may have now that the turks have reconciled with them or what the united states is or is not doing. ultimately the political actors are those people on the ground, the isis and other extremist as long with the assad regime, hezbollah, the who are erm didded to protect their equities in syria. so it strikes me that as much as this change in turkey's posture and the prospects that tur de is going to become much more directly involved member of the antiisis coalition are good things, but it may not necessarily make significant material difference in what is happening in sya. at least for the last, for the next six months. >> intriguing possibilities, i agree. but i also go back to what steven said before which is at the end of the day the turks are most concerned long-term about the role of the kurds both inside their society as well as
in syria and iraq. those trends are directly undermining turkish stability over the long-term and i have a hard time seeing turkey move enough so that they are actually aligned with the united states on the kurdish issue, can they align on assad, yeah, i think they might be able to do that. but that's a different story from saying that they are okay with the americans providing arms to a group that the turks directly consider to be terrorists. i can't see the americans and the turks really getting on the same page in syria any time soon. >> and what is happening in syria, just to underline what ian just said what is happening in syria is actually a nightmare scenario for the turks. the united states, turkey a major ally, the western power has essentially mid wifed a terrorist state on turkey's border in this western kurdistan n this territory that syrian kurds now control.
is a state in the making that is closely alines with the pkk. to the turk this is a nightmare scenario and something that they have been worried about forever. it places their, the integrity of their country in general ardy. so sernlg moving the turks in the dreksz of the anti-isis coalition and as i said a more direct way, is positive. but when push comes to shove, really what gets the turks attention is kurdish nationalism. >> rose: on that note, thank you so much, great to you have here. thanks again. my thanks again to richard engel and my friend ian bremmer. >> great pleasure seeing you again. >> rose: we'll be right back. stay with us. we turn from terrorism and international politics to a story of courage, toughness and leadership. pat summitt the winningest coach in college basketball history died tuesday morning. she was 64 years old.
her death came five years after she was diagnosed with alzheimer disease. in 38 years at the university of tennessee, summitt won 1,098 games while leading the lady volunteers to 8 national titles. her team reached the final four 22 times and made an unprecedented approximate 1 consecutive appearances in the ncaa tournament. her influence extended onthe basketball court. all of her players who completed their elig ability at tennessee graduated from the university of tennessee, to make, a former play are and wnba star said of summitt's coaching, we learned about what it takes to be a leader. what it takes to be a great woman. what it takes to be a great lady. what it takes to have character. what it takes to have pois. that summitt was a guest on this program in 1998, and here say part of that conversation. >> rose: do you think people like you are made or born?
>> i think i'm a product of my environment. i really do i think it's a result of my childhood and actually having to work every day. i didn't particularly like it at the time i thought all my friends had it made and i was being tortured at the time. and then it just within that system, i developed an incredible work ethic. and a competitive one. i mean i played pickup in the hayloft with my brothers. we played two on two and early on i could not stand to lose. i couldn't stand it. it was like well, we'll play tonight after we finish our chores, you know. >> rose: we'll go until i win. >> we'll stay until i win. i'm going to sleep a winner tonight. you about you know i think that's just my life. >> rose: my philosophy. >> that's right. >> rose: that's what i believe in. >> it is. >> rose: and you just got it from growing up like that and having to compete. but i don't-- i don't know.
i probably said the genes, some of it is there. >> probably, i think some of it is there. i think my father motivated me a lot. by challenging me and saying you know, you are going to be an olympian after i had a acl-- . >> rose: said you will be an olympian. >> my daughter is going to be on the olympic team so let's fix her knee, simple there were days i didn't want to work out. and i thought oh, my father, i've got to do it. can i not let my family down. so i worked. >> rose: it was the edge. >> okay. >> rose: you have ever gone over the edge, pushed too hard, felt like i better pull back-- pull back because. >> because i might snap? is that what you-- . >> rose: yeah, you might snap or you know, you-- you dob worry about that?
>> there have been times i really thought i was too tough on kids an i would go home and i would beat myself up over that. >> rose: would you really? >> i would. i would worry about that. and maybe i would drop them a note, put it in their locker the next day and just reassure them that i was doing it for their benefit. or you know, to hang in there, that the tough times won't last and the tough people do last. and but yet, for me, pushing too hard, no. i think that there was a time in which i let losses just eat away at me it was unhealthy. i mean i couldn't eat, i couldn't sleep. i was miserable. and i blame myself. and i think-- . >> rose: what is the cure for that? >> a cure for that is-- . >> rose: winning. >> the cure for that swing. to be realistic. you don't win every time you compete. you're not always-- i used to think i could control everything that happened every day in my world. and a lot of things are out of your control. >> rose: what can't you control. >> well, sometimes you can't control what goes through the minds of an 18 year old. you can't control the injury factor. you can't always control how the
opposition performs. you can influence it. but you can't have total control. >> rose: what is here that is porchlt for all of us to know about your experience. >> well, the reason that i wanted to write this particular kind of book is we have really tried at tennessee to come up with a system. i think you need a system whether it's with your family or in the workplace, and i think it's just, it really is basic, developing the basic life skills and allowing individuals to understand how they can be successful, individually and with a team. because that's what we do. we develop individual players and people but yet we try to incorporate a team concept, which is what you have to do in life. you have to figure out somewhere along the way how you get along with people. but first i think you have to
understand yourself. and how the self-respect and self-discipline, assume the responsibility and know that hey, i'm accountable for me. and then when i am working in a koorption or when i am living in a family, or when i'm on a team, then i have responsibilities for the team. >> rose: pat summitt, dead at 64. thank you for joining us. for more about this program and earlier episodes vits us online at pbs.org and charlie rose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by
captioning by vitac, underwritten by fireman's fund announcer: the following kqed production was produced in hi-definition. ♪ >> it's all about licking your plate. >> the food is just fabulous. >> i should be a psychoanalyst for the amount of money i spend in restaurants. >> i had a horrible experience. >> i don't even think we were at the same restaurant and everybody, i'm sure, saved room for those desserts.