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tv   Charlie Rose  PBS  January 26, 2017 12:00am-1:01am PST

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the first week of the trump administration with a conversation with julie hirschfeld david of the new york time and robert costa of the washington post. >> what we're seeing is the culmination of action the president was talking about in the election address and the populism has been put into policy through executive orders working long side senator jeff sessions and steven bannon a controversial aid at his side. >> and look at a report stock market performance with bryon wien and michael regan and dennis berman.
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>> now they're expected to go up to 125 or 120 to 125 but there's been little earnings improvement over the last few years. under trump's program if he cuts taxes, dismantles regulation earnings can go to 130. the market can sell at 20 times that. that's 2600 on the s&p 500. that's a 10% move from here. >> and a preview of the 2017 best picture academy award nominees announced yesterday. >> it's conflict and compromise and very very excitable. >> i got two girlfriends. >> and today we remember mary tyler-moore who died at the age
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of 80. >> i have done television until carl reiner read with me that audition and he just heard something he wanted to hear. >> politics and washington, stock market in new york and best films in hollywood and remembering mairy tyler-moore when we continue. >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by the following: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> charlie: we begin with our
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continuing look at president trump's first week in order. he signed an executive order to begin construction of a border wall with mexico. it's part of the president's signature campaign promise to fight illegal immigration. the made an address at the department of homeland security. >> we're going south borders. the unprecedented surge of illegal migrants from central america is harming both mexico and the united states and i believe the steps we will take starting right now will improve the safety in both of our countries. it's going to be very good for mexico. a nation without borders is not a nation. beginning today the united states of america of america gets back its borders. >> the president is expect to meet with mexican president next
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week at the white house. joining me from washington julie hirschfeld david and bob costa of the washington post. it's only wednesday but the president seemed to be determined to fulfill his campaign promises. he said he would build a wall and initiated now. what's the difference between the initiation and the beginning of the wall being built having funds as well as mexico paying for it. >> good to join you, charlie. what we're seeing this week in regard to immigration is the culmination in action in terms of what the president was talking about in his inaugural address. this hard-line populism he articulated has been put into policy working alongside jeff sessions of alabama his nominee
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for attorney general and steve bannon. they crafted the executive orders because they want to get started quickly in particular on the wall. they're using current federal funding available to them through executive authority to begin the construction project. meanwhile they're starting to have talks with mexico. a government that remains very resistant to the idea of funding any part of this wall but it's all part of trump's ambition to get started on his immigration policies now before congress gets cold feet and too many things come his way. >> charlie: he's evidently determined to get a whole lot accomplished very early across the boards. >> he certainly is. and this is somewhat different for a republican president. i was at the capitol all week and many republican lawmakers at the house and senate are privately and publicly are telling me he's not using all the executive authority.
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it echos one of the criticism they made of president obama but they know trump as someone so outside of washington is working with congress and going to be at the retreat thursday but working as a loner with his staff to make sure his campaign promises are fulfilled and they're not all mainstream ideas they're trump proposals. >> charlie: is it steve bannon that has the most influence with him? >> i see a populist orbit around trump and his speech writer, steve bannon, jeff sessions, the deputy chief of staff that was chief of staff to sessions are long on the fringes of republicans and now they have power and having power they don't want to lose it and move on things they know make many people in their party and many
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democrats uncomfortable. >> charlie: julie, your assessment of what's happened in the three days of the trump presidency this week? >> what we've seen as a real activist approach putting in place unilaterally some of his campaign promises and what we saw with the border executive order is donald trump will try to use all his authority and everything at his disposal both to appear to be carrying out the promises in a strong way and try to prod congress to follow him. many of the things he called for in the orders today, the building of the wall, the hiring of more border agents and border enforcement officials will take congressional acting and funding. he's playing out a predicate with the health executive order the evening he was sworn in saying this is the direction the
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country is going and i want policy to go and follow me and we can get it done. what's not clear is it if he can get these things accomplish border wall will be very costly. we're already hearing the president of mexico may cancel his trip to come to the white house and talk to donald trump about this in the coming weeks of the anger the proposal has inspired. what we see from trump say real activist posture but it's unclear whether he'll be able to follow that through and we'll have to see. >> charlie: tonight as we speak who's the likely supreme court nominee? >> i think judge gorsach and you have pryor close with senator sessions. he's part of the main three. i hear it's gorsach and anything relate to president trump can chang
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change. >> charlie: senator sessions has real power he doesn't he? >> he does. in trump he found someone he can sell an ideology no one else but sessions was selling the populism about nationalism and trade and protectionism and tough borders. no one else was talking about these except the breitbart website and trump comes in with the whirlwind of celebrity and embrace the sessions ideology and now sessions in power can help trump turns the populist instincts into policy. >> charlie: there's a sense he believes he has caught a wave which is the movement which is
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the populist revolution around the world and that he is simply the expression of it in america. >> absolutely. we heard him in his inaugural address people of the world and talking about the movement they've built and he's just a messenger and the power's returning to the people. he can talk about the message of a populist movement and put out orders for unilateral action but what we have yet to see if he'll be able to build a coalition and he'll have to do that with mitch mcconnel and paul ryan and one thing the supreme court fight coming up that will allow him to do is establish channels and team up win capitol hill for getting that done. if he can do that effectively it will bode well for the policy agenda he want to execute. but right now this white house is at its very beginning stages. they don't have much of a coalition's operation.
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they don't even have much of a communication's operation beyond a press secretary. they have a lot of work to do. >> charlie: the washington post had a fascinating piece i think yet, robert, you got an inside look at how it is both trump with his pen circling articles in the papers he was interested in and wanted action on or a response to. give us your sense of his modus operandi in the white house? >> trump sees disruption and tweets as power to rattle washington. he's creating challenges in his town with his m.o. we look at the new controversy about voter fraud with tweets he
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mentioned monday night. he's talking about issues beyond the policies of health care and immigration and taxes. that's alarmed privately some lawmakers i've spoken with. they wonder why trump can't get more focus in his agenda in the first week and part of the things that's been reported about his m.o. is he's waking up early every day and getting all the printouts about him and marking them with pen in a sharpie marker and watching television every hour and every minute and keeping his antenna up and his aides tell me that's what is does and it's taking up a lot of his time and the executive orders and monitoring the media, being part of the media and giving speeches so we still see him adjusting to the office. >> charlie: julie is he a guy most comfortable in combat?
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>> i think he's most comfortable when he's punching back we saw that in his first full day in office when protesters were in the street and he was in the white house watching on tv and feeling very attacked and we saw him hit back and his press secretary hit back sean spicer in his appearance and he's is sitting watching tv, watching his coverage and the reason some republicans are put out by the off-message nature of some of what he's saying is he can't resist hitting back when he sees something he think is unfair. when he hears that people saw pictures of his inauguration and it wasn't as crowded as for barack obama he'll pick it up and be out in the media and be on twitter and make statements
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and that's not what he want to be talking about necessary or what republicans want to talk about but that's the nature of donald trump. >> charlie: thank you, julie, thank you, robert. back in a moment. stay with us. we begin with the dow jones soared above 20,000 for the first time in history wednesday afternoon and the s&p and nasdaq have surged in infrastructure. joining me bryon wien the vice chair of blackstone and michael regan a senior editor at bloomberg.
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byron, i'll give it to you first. what's going on? >> investors are taking trump at his word. they believe he's going to improve the economy. the economy was bumping along since the recovery began in 2009 and at less than a 2% growth rate. he promises something considerably more than that and the pro-growth outline you gave delivered 3% growth and when i went to school 3% is 50% more than 2%. most people think it will start to kick in in 2017 but you'll really feel it in 2018. my view is trump is an impatient guy and he's going to press to get these changes done earlier rather than later. >> charlie: and will be successful? >> i think they'll be effective. i think there's some negatives associated with them that we can
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talk about. one is it's going to take a lot more workers to produce 3% growth and we already have 4. 7% unemployment rate and two, i think the tax cuts will reduce government revenue faster than the additional income will flow and increase the tax revenue. >> charlie: michael. >> i think that's exactly right. trump had a huge wish list of items he wanted to do and the market reacted very positively much to the surprise of people. people thought there would be more volatility because there's so much uncertainty around trump. he's very unpredictable on purpose. >> charlie: most these people believe in trade and free-trade. i suppose trump does or says he
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does but doesn't think it's fair. >> he started equity friendly building the pipelines and not only that saying we'll use american materials. even building the wall is bullish for commodity produce ers. ultimately it's how the bond market reacts. bonds haven't broken up to the upside like they start to after the election. it's clear that trump is going to push for a bigger deficit in the u.s. so that coupled with the inflation that's going to be caused by these policies will cause upward pressure on interest rates -- >> charlie: is that going against republican orthodoxy? >> absolutely. you kind hearing animal spirits are attached to it and a certain amount of his wish list will get
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accomplished but march we'll be looking at the debt ceiling again and will the deficit hawks in congress who pushed so hard against expanding the debt ceiling in the past will they fall in line behind trump on this or will there be a little bit of friction? that to me is the next litmus test. >> we've had almost a decade of incredible policy in the united states and around the world. it's like we almost forgot the reality. >> charlie: it's kept rates low. >> and pumped money and stimulus into the economy. but that said, even ben bernanke was pleading with congress, guys, spend a little more. >> charlie: and there needed to be a fiscal response. primarily with infrastructure or what else? >> primarily with infrastructure. it will be interesting to see military spending whether he
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thin thinks a jet fighter should be whatever price it is. >> the blocked shot of the federal reserve and bank of england, european central bank and bank of jp if you combine them they were $3 trillion in 2008 and they're $13 trillion. the market has been propelled by monetary expansion. now at least in the united states we don't have that expansion. i don't think the federal reserve balance sheet won't be shrunk but we won't have the monetary push. we need the push from earnings. we'll also have interest rates going the wrong way. >> charlie: explain it because everybody doesn't work at blackstone. explain how that comes about because of the effect and what
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the increase of earnings are across the board. >> earning have been trapped between 115 and 120 on the standard and poors 500 for the past 15 years and now they're expect to go to 120 to 125 but there's been little earnings improvement in the last few years. under trump's program if he cuts taxes and dismantles regulation earnings can go to 130. the market could sell at 20 times that. that's 2600 on the s&p 500. that's a 10% move from here. >> to me charlie there's still an important constituency that has to be convinced that's the boards of directors, ceos of companies around the country. for the past eight years they've taken money in and bought back
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stock. there's a ceo at herboard do they say we want to go for it? we want to spend money in ways we weren't comfortable before because there's an opportunity we don't want to miss and so far the they haven't really gone for it? >> are they wrong? operating rates are 77%. there's plenty of slack capacity in the system. you don't have to go out and build a new plant. >> then you may not have the same effect trump want with the reality byron's talking about. >> to get back to the buybacks and dividends which help the stock market a lot of that was fueled by ultra low interest rates. to me he hasn't even started talking about what i think is the most bullish aspect of his platform the tax cuts and the repatriation of u.s. earnings. u.s. companies have -- >> charlie: a couple trillion? >> i've seen hundreds of billions, a couple trillion.
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$3 trillion. >> charlie: that companies have overseas they have not bought back of the tax rates. >> some will be used over there. >> they're not bringing it back for free they will pay some taxes. >> charlie: what is it now 35%? >> they pay around 27%. >> that right there is an instant adrenaline injection to the stock market. what i don't get is how much is the stock market discounting that being a done deal? that's the easiest thing to get through to congress. having a one-time holiday to allow -- >> i don't think that's a big push. i think the big drivers of the market are lower corporate taxes on income not on the
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repatriation and the dismantling of regulation. regulation has cost companies an enormous amount and it's hampered their operating activities. those are the big pluses. he's got to get those through. >> charlie: he'll have paul ryan's support on that for sure? >> paul ryan will support him but he's a deficit hawk. he wants whatever program trump implements he want to be revenue neutral. you cut taxes on corporations and individuals you'll have to find other ways to generate revenue to have a balanced budget or something approaching -- >> charlie: what's that have to do with regulation? >> it costs companies money. if they make more money they'll pay more taxes. >> can i paint a more bearish case to byron's view of ceo's
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i've met in the past weeks they're excited about what michael is talking about but there's a creeping fear which is rule by fiat may affect their decision and border adjustability if you want to get really boring we can go into that and it's a way of putting tariff on goods that come in -- >> charlie: and a trade war is a product of that? >> richard haas is so he will went on that. who are people buying u.s. products? people in mexico. we send energy, natural gas and oil to mexico. there's all sorts of things we haven't begun to explore if we break into reduction of the free trade regime. >> and the profit margins on u.s. companies -- >> china will be a big part of it and we have europe with its own problems and brexit is a
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part of that and we have our populist wave sweeping over the world. you may see some elections going the wrong way -- >> charlie: like germany, italy, france. >> it makes europe which is an important customer of ours a wild card. >> charlie: and an important customer of china too. >> the whole post-war dynamic like a rebate you become our preferred trading partner we'll cut you slack on nato and pay for your defense. that was the implicit bargain and what trump's inauguration speech said all deals are back on the table. america first and perhaps china makes a better accommodation with europe than the u.s. has. >> thank you. >> charlie: thank you. we'll be right back. stay with us. the nomination for the 89th academy awards were announced yesterday. jimmy kimmel will host sunday
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february 26. the musical la la land leads with 14 nominations including best picture, best director and actress and director and moonlight and arrival were also widely recognized with eight nominations each. here's a look at the nine films nominated this year for best picture. >> two options, you either follow my rules or follow my rules, capiche? >> thank you very much. [♪] [mel a [melancholy music] [♪] >> you're fired. >> i see the decoration. good luck in the new year.
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>> i just heard you play and i wanted -- >> we keep running into each other. [upbeat music] [♪] >> write your own rules. write something as interesting as you are. >> is that going to happen every time? [♪] >> how are you going to be a revolutionary if you're a traditionalist? you're holding on to the past but jazz is about the future. >> maybe i'm not good enough. >> yes, you are. >> maybe i'm not. >> this is the dream. it's a conflict and compromise and very very exciting.
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[♪] >> that's where you're from. >> calcutta. >> aii'm adopted. i'm starting to remember. >> a life i've forgotten. >> are you ok? >> i had another family. a mother, a brother. i can still see their faces.
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>> i have to find my way back home. [♪] >> how long? >> a couple days. >> a couple of days? >> every day my brother screams my name. >> i always thought i could keep
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this family together. i need you. >> i don't have a choice. >> every night i imagine i'm walking the streets home every step of the way. i whisper in her ear, i'm here. >> when i first met this woman i latched on to her. i told her, baby, i don't want to marry, i just want to be your man. rose told me --
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>> i told him if he wasn't the marrying kind get out of the way. >> you're blocking the view many of move out of the way so i can find me a husband. >> i want him to help me with this. >> it ain't going to get him nowhere. >> he'll be all right. two men never played baseball as good as you. >> what did it ever get me. >> how come you don't like me. >> a man is supposed to raise a family. you fill your belly with my food so don't go through life whether somebody likes you better be
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sure they're doing right by you. >> i want him as far as away from my life. >> you can't be nobody but who you are, troy. that's all you got to measure yourself against the world out there. >> i have something to tell you -- i don't know how to tell you this. >> you ought to know. >> i don't want to know. >> you never done nothing but hold me back afraid i was going to be better than you. >> everything that boy do he do for you. >> it's not easy for me to admit i've been standing in the same place for 18 years. >> i have been standing with you. i have a life too. don't you think i had dreamed and hopes too? what about my life? what about me? >> what you gonna do?
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>> some people build fences to keep people out and other people build fences to keep people in. >> you just drove down here? [♪] >> at some point you have to decide for yourself who you
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going to be? ain't nobody else can make that decision. >> you strong. >> i haven't seen you in like a decade. what'd you expect? >> dollar
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>> there are days that define your story like the day they arrived. >> i'm with army intelligence. >> you'll be working with me. >> they took him in a medivac. >> every 18 hours the doors open up. that's where we go in.
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>> dr. briggs? >> now that's a proper introduction. >> they have landed around the world. >> we need to make sure they understand the difference between a weapon and tool. >> it's possible. >> it's more complicated. >> how is it more complicated. >> they are keeping their secrets.
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>> it's global war. >> how do we clarify their intentions? >> we go back in. >> what the hell is your delay, captain. >> we're waiting. >> waiting for what? >> private dos. >> who is private dos? >> i dreamed of being a doctor. i can't stay here while all them can't fight for me. >> you think the war is going to fit in with your ideas. >> while everybody's taking life i'm going for saving it. that's going to be my way to serve. >> this is a gift by the
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u.s. government designed to bring death to the enemy. >> you don't kill? >> no. >> you have to kill in war. >> private doss does not believe in violence. do not look to him to save you on the battlefield. >> i think this is cowardice. >> i say you can go to prison? >> how can i live with myself if i don't do what a believe. the world is so set on tearing it apart it doesn't seem so bad to me to want to put a little bit back together. >> you afree to run into the hell fire of battle without a single weapon to protect yourself. >> i'm going to get you out.
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ain't nobody going to help you. >> please, lord. help me get one more. >> the bank loan is just enough to keep your mama poor and take her land. >> it's a big bank. >> that's what she said. >> now they can foreclose on
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friday so come hell or high water get the money to the bank on thursday and you are free and clear. >> let's get that money. >> open the door. >> you a gun on you, old man? >> you're damn right i have a gun on me. you're going to take my gun too? >> you may get to have some fun yet. >> i have one heart left in me. >> everybody down. >> you been here a while? >> long enough to watch the bank get robbed that's been robbing me for 30 years. >> how do you watch a man stay out of prison? >> it's been difficult. >> these boys know exactly what they're doing. they're trying to raise a
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certain amount. that's my guess. >> let's go. >> howdy. >> go every step of the way. >> you want some advice go see the boys. why did you agree to do it? >> because you asked, little brother. >> i think i got these boys figured. >> you got no record, you've never been arrested. you don't fit the bill, marcus. >> whatever i hear i don't believe. >> you believe it. i did all of it. >> i love you. >> i love you too.
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>> y'all going to end up riding around in this pile of junk. >> your welcome to join us. >> i'll sit in the back. >> you have identification on you. >> nasa, sir. >> nasa i had no idea they hired -- >> they have quite a few women. >> least i can do is give you an escort. >> three black women are leading a white policeman down the lie way in 1971. that's a god-ordained problem. >> with the launch of the russian satellite the president is demanding an immediate response.
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>> we can handle the numbers. >> this is about the math. >> what do you do for nasa? >> calculate. >> i have the right to do it in every color. >> do you wish to be an engineer. >> i wouldn't have to be. i'd already be one. >> i don't know if i can keep up. >> make that pencil move faster. >> we have it figured out. >> there's no protocol for women attend. >> there's no protocol for a man circling the earth either. >> every time we get close they
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move the finish line. >> we make the rules. >> you are the boss. you just have to act like one. >> we get there together or we don't get there at all. >> we're in the fight of our lives, people. >> we have to do the work. >> more than 16 million americans watching. >> there's a real fireball in here. >> if you can pick one guy on an island with you and knew you'd be safe because he's the best man to keep you mappy -- happy between me and your father who would you pick? >> my daddy. >> i think you're wrong about that.
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>> i don't understand. >> what part? >> i can't be his guardian? >> the idea is you'd relocate. >> here? >> it was my impression you'd spent a lot time here. >> i'm just a backup. >> nobody can appreciate what you've been through and if you really feel you can't take this on that's your right. >> are you going to the orphanage. >> lock the door. >> you can decide you can always stay with us if he want to come on weekend. >> do you want to be his guardian? >> he doesn't want to be the guardian. >> hello? >> hello, lee. i want to call and say i'm sorry. how's patrick doing? >> have you sex with these girls? >> i'm working on. -- it.
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>> you don't want to be my guardian it's fine with me. >> all my friends are here and i have two girlfriends and i'm in a band. you're a janitor in quincy. where the hell do you care where you live? >> my heart was broken too. >> you don't understand. there's nothing there. >> that's not true. >> there's something wrong with me. >> do you want he to call a friend? what do you want me to do? >> i don't know. >> just sit there until you calm down. >> i'm calm now now please just go away. >> no. >> charlie: mary tyler-moore died earlier today and garnered
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acclaim for the dick van dyke show from 1951 to 1961 but when the start in the mary tyler-moore show she became a national symbol for single professional women. later handling dramatic roles with the same comedic skills in addition to a career he was a passionate advocate of the juvenile diabetes foundation and was on the program three time and here's a look at some of those conversations. >> i have always taken very seriously everything i do. i mean there's nothing as serious to me as a laugh. >> charlie: that's hard to do. >> it's hard and something that has to be crafted and prepared for one way or the other and make it look like you don't care. that's the best thing of all. to have been able to go to
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college as i did on the dick van dyke show -- >> charlie: it was your education? >> yeah, i had done no comedy until carl reiner with me that audition and heard something he wanted to hear that very first time and within 24 hours i had the part and we started rehearsing three days later. >> charlie: have you ever had an acting lesson in your life? >> i went for about 20 minutes to a school that was a part of 20th century fox. >> charlie: like me in therapy. >> really? no, let's talk about that. >> charlie: what would you like to know? have you done therapy as well? >> oh, sure. >> charlie: all right. we'll get to that later. >> you went for 20 minutes. >> 20th century fox had what they called a talent school a
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hangover of the olden days when they had people under contract and it was hoped you'd go to talent school and learn to be a tree or teapot and somebody would put you under contract. it was a very brief soldiering for me and a went on to be a chorus dancer which i still think is my true calling and from that moment to acting. >> charlie: so when you look back who's made a difference for you? who's been really important other than your husband or husbands made a real significant difference in terms of lessons and helping you? >> without question my aunt birdie. >> charlie: who is that? >> my mother's sister. she lived with their mother, my grandmother and during my teen years when i was growing up it began as a tiny baby they'd have me to the house and stay a couple days at a time and as i
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grew older they were the ones who encouraged me to take the dancing class and sing and made my costumes and drove me to the shows we put on. she was definitely a most important influence. >> charlie: did you know then you wanted to be a performer? >> when i was 3. my grandfather said of me this child will either end up on stage or jail. fortunately -- >> charlie: aunt birdie made sure. when you look back at the events the dick van dyke show and then -- >> i think it was a big turning point for me but who ever knows. >> charlie: who were your heroines then? >> if you look at the first-year episodes of the dick van dyke
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show there's a very definite hepburn tone to my voice especially, oh, rob. oh, darling. >> charlie: you were caught stealing -- >> i didn't know what i was doing so i channelled catherine hepburn. >> charlie: did you think you had talent or hoped they didn't find out. >> total insecurity. i can just knock them dead but why would they keep me. >> charlie: i hope they don't find out. >> it's true and i think you'll find a lot of people are like that. >> charlie: huge egos and huge confidence and other times -- >> a big dent in the brain. >> charlie: tell me your sense of mary. when you look in the mirror what do you see? >> i think i see a good sport
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and someone compulsively truthful. >> charlie: that's true. someone said what are mary's asked she will not die. compulsive, it will just come out. >> i've always liked you. i watch the show every night. >> charlie: you said to me i was your second favorite person -- >> surely i wouldn't put it that way. >> charlie: that's exactly. >> well tonight you're my first. >> charlie: i will survive. at 15 or 16 you were ready to take it on the road. >> i got married at 17 -- no, 18, excuse me and had my first, only child at 19. i was eager to get out on my own and prove myself worthy of somebody's attention. >> charlie: when did you do that? >> i don't think i have yet and back to the point where i don't
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think it's important anymore. i remember a quote from darcy parker who said what other people think of me is none of my business. as long as i'm respectful and mindful of other people's feelings i think i can take that as my own model. i learned that in the book too i'm going to stop judging and look at other people and they have to do this or that. let it be. let it be and do your best. >> charlie: are you still looking for some peace, some sense of coming full circle that after all you have been, after all the highs and all the lows there's still something you're reaching for? >> sure. i think happiness is an evolution and sometimes it's at a low end and sometimes it's back in your life. >> charlie: when you think about
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career, any great regrets you have? career. >> no, maybe one regret and that is after ordinary people which was a wonderful time for me it was a great role and great director and great actors and a lot of attention and people sent me scripts to look at and i read them thinking they should have been in a certain shape ordinary people was in when redford gave it to me very little change from the script to filming and i think down a few things had i been willing to get in there and work with the producer or director -- >> charlie: you could have turned a rough script to a good script that would have been a continuation of the performance you saw in ordinary people. >> and i'm sorry that happened and that's a result of my not quite understanding the business
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but listen, that's the worse thing that's happened that's ok. >> charlie: mary tyler-moore dead at 80. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org
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>> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. >> yo
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announcer: support for "kqed science" is provided by... support is also provided by the members of kqed. sethi: the business of growing food has always been tough.

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