tv Charlie Rose PBS November 3, 2017 12:00am-1:01am PDT
>> i'm going because paid to have a poan of view. >> developments in the new york attackment and annie leibowitz leibovitz when we continue. >> funding for charl yea rose is provided by the following. > >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by the following: >> and by bloomberg, a provider >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> two days after a vehicle attack in lower manhattan killed eight people and injured many others, details are emerging about the history and possible
motives of the 29 year old suspected. sayfullo saipov who came from uzbekistan in 2010 on a littery visa told authorities he carried out the attack for isis, new evidence suggests he had been planning the attack for up to a year. federal authorities on wednesday charged saipov with terrorism saying his attack was trait out of the isis playbook. president trump twice tweeted he should get the death penal. joining me is devlin barrett, covers for "the washington post" an with me in new york michael daily a special correspondent with the daily beast. welcome to you both. michael, let me start with you. what do we know now that we didn't know yesterday. >> what do we know now that we didn't know yesterday, i don't know if there was anything dramatic. you have more of a picture of the guy, this man who, the computer choas him. he is sitting, he is working for a hotel, at home in uzbekistan,
he's 21 years old, and he wins, whether or not he wanted to do it i'm sure everyone said you won the lottery, like he went to the corner and played mega millions and he won, he comes and stays with people in ohio. he has an idea that he was a book keeper in a hotel back home, reasonably good hotel and thought he might do it here but the problem is he doesn't speak englishing, there aren't a lot of uzbeki hotels in america. so the guy he was staying with was driving trucks so he started driving trucks. you can see this guy kind of solitary driving all over the united states in this truck, coming back to his family. he gets married. he has two daughters. and then his wife becomes pregnant with a third child. and if you think that he is planning this for a year, that means that whole time that she is pregnant, he's coming home, and he's planning something like this. while the son is coming in to being. or the summer the son is born,
that doesn't change anything. and while the son is born and starting life, daddy is collecting videos of beheadings isis beheadings, torture and murder on his cell phone. one of the things noted by where he was living in new jersey, this fellow, the kid's toys out front, one is a little fire engine. and you know, if you come from the city of new york and you look at a fire engine you think of the fdny and that makes you think of 9/11. yesterday there was a truck from 1010 which is the fire house right next to the world trade center driving down the path that this guy took, washing away the blood, where the with a police helicopter above it. i think there has been nothing we've learned about him that you dnt kind of know the minute you heard that it happened. i mean another kind of loan loser, a guy who picked up stuff from isis. if you follow the isis magazines
at all, you kind of knew. i mean the cops that night were talking about the isis playbook and even isis even talked about you should throw leaflets, this guy's idea of leaflets were two pieces of printer paper he had written the same message, the idea of distributing them were like ten feet from his truck. he did everything except for the end where he is supposed to martyr himself, suppose to inflick more casualties, he had a fake gun, couldn't get to his knives so he ends up not doing that and he doesn't martyr himself. now you have the president of the united states saying he ought to get executed. you know, maybe that doesn't-- isn't going to break this guy's heart. >> devlin barrett, this is a case that we're hearing about radicalization that happened after he was here in the united states. yesterday, in the papers, we're talking about 90 videos, 3800
images recovered from his cell phone and other places. >> right. yeah, and what he has described according to the court documents, what he has described lot, that they sort of bothdeos encouraged and i think probably you know got him more accustomed to the notion of taking lives and hurting people. because the videos he is watching are obviously pretty grew some. and it seems like he was using the videos and some other things to basically psych himself up to this. that is the description we're getting from folks working this case. and it is as mike said, it is an incredibly sad thing but it is also in some ways very predictable in the sense of he had flashed a bang of what they call about a year, meaning he starts thinking about this a year ago, two months ago he starts to get very serious about it. and we were told in recent weeks that he had been practicing driving these kind of rental trucks to make sure he knew how to handle them. >> also he was driving for uber, you can imagine a guy coming to america thinking glory, now he is driving an usual uberment
problemly isn't too happy. what is he doing wile driving an uber, he scouts that route. and you know, this guy is driving along the west side highway of manhattan, one of the most beautiful things you can see, people biking and jogging and walking and living their lives along the water. with the statue of liberty off to the right. and the freedom tower rising there, it is this beautiful thing and he's driving his uber through this and he's thinking what he is going to do to kill people. and radicalization, i don't know if that is the right word because i don't think it's religeon or when you get down to it, it is not really religion, it's people working out their own personal pathologies grabbing on to something. i mean you know, i ity this of mo hamad atta who flew the first plane into the trade center when they went to his father, and said he had done t the father's reaction was oh, he couldn't have done that, he's too weak. you say okay, well, you think bin osama bin laden, his father's 53rd kid but his mom's one and only boy.
all these guys, you can see a certain pathology at work. and what they do is they latch on to that stuff. and it's out there for these guys. he's got a whole phone, two phones of this stuff, right? two phones of these kind of twisted ways that he can fill everything inside himself that might feel empty, that he's not just a guy driving some truck through this bizarre country called america. that you know, he's got power, he's connected into something big, it wasn't a mistake for him to leave home, right. and i think ultimately he wanted to prove he really did win the lottery, you know, i am a winner, i did win something. because you know, i'm with isis. he wanted-- he wanted, he talked to the cops about hanging an isis flag in his hospital room. i mean, that's a guy who is nuts. that is not a guy who is radicalized, that is a guy who became nuts, i think.
>> devlin barrett, you combine the pathology there with almost the manual, it is written and published in what, june of this year. almost terror by numbers. and he follows the check list. >> sure. and what you are have seen here is as terrorism has evolved since 9/11, you know, 9/11 compared to this was incredibly complex and sophisticated, this is literally find a big heavy vehicle, and just find some pedestrians and bicyclists and plow them down. there is a-- you know, a detect nol giization of this whole thing where now as the isis propaganda says use a rock, use a car, anything you have, and that will be enough. and you know, for the, you can call pathological, you can call it broken people, you can call it just people who have some serious, serious problems. you know for them, that's enough. >> what about this idea you
mentioned a couple of times, the lottery and the visa program now. yesterday the president during his preses conference went out of his way to say he could have, this individual, the attacker would have brought in, or he was a reference for a number of other people, what do we know about that, michael? >> that i'm not clear on now. that stuff i think is really dangerous. because then you start going well this guy came in on this plane with this guy and went to this wedding and was seen with this guy. d you know, that's like going to a mafia wedding and you think, well, you know, this guy was seen coming in here and he later went to dinner with-- i think that stuff is a little dangerous. i don't think that this guy was like, you know, the center of some cell or something, or-- he may have, in the mosque, some people in the mosque nghtsed that-- noticed that he was getting a little extreme, and the more conservative, the more reasonable people told him he ought to cool it i'm sure other people who were hot headed noticed, they probably passed remarks or something. but it doesn't seem to me, this guy's plot consisted of going to
home depot, taking the 19.95 deal deal for 75 minutes, i mean, and putting down $50 deposit. he leaves his car because isis said don't take your car, get a truck. and then he goes ands do it. that is his whole plot. >> devlin barrett, what about this idea that as the actual caliphate gets smaller and smaller and faces more intense military pressure in that part of the world, the virtual caliphate seems untouchable and seems to grow rapidly. >> yeah, i think there's a lot of truth to that i think certainly the virtual caliphate, the notion that the ideas themselves can be infectious for a small percentage of people in the universe, i think that's very true. and that you don't really need the-- a coherent state to make that happen. and just to your other point, as far as the points of contact and the 23 other individuals, just if it helps people understand, so he was-- we are told he was listed as a point of contact for
about 23 other people who came or wanted to come from uzbekistan to america. that is not the same thing as sponsoring someone. he was a green card holder so he can't actually sponsor anyone to come here beyond his wife and his children. so i think there has been a lot of misinformation as to what that 23 people point of contact thing means. and i think frankly it doesn't mean a ton. however, we do know that in the douser-- course of the last year or two, the fbi was interested in a friend of his. and that is how he had sort of come up on the radar, ever so slightly before any of this stuff happened. but what has been said to me is they were really not focused on him, they were really looking at someone else. and the thing that has been said to me is the uzbek community is such a small immigrant community in this country, that a lot of them know each other and a lot of them have, you know, use each other as references or just have, you know, two degrees of separation. so we're being cautioned by sources to not read too much into these things because it is just a very small immigrant
community. >>. >> that's absolutely true. >> andrew comb owe i-- cumo said there is no evidence to suggest a wider plot or scheme. >> i don't think you can con fierm-- confirm it but there definitely is a plot that isis put this stuff out. their plot is if we put all this stuff out, if we put this recipe out. i mean they put out a recipe for a pressure kooblger bomb and the next thing, you have the boston marathon. then they put out okay, we're not going to dot pressure cookers any more with the christmas tree lights. we're going to do trucks. and that happens, i mean that is a plot. that is someone set something in motion. figuring that someone else will do it. i mean that is a plot. and it is a very large plot in a sense. it's not-- the individual involved, not necessarily involved with other people, but you know, it was a scheme. and for them it works. and you don't really know, i mean if you go down, if you walk down where this latee thing
happened and you look at the freedom tower and you go over and look at the two memorial pools and you see the names of all the people murdered that day, then you say to yourself, well wa, do we do about the names of these people who got murdered on halloween, these eight people. where do we put that in our national history? that wasn't herl harbor day, it was smaller but it's certainly not smaller to each one of those families. and it certainly seems it's going to continue on. and the way you can combat the hijacked airplanes, you can like throw up, you know, you know, tsa everywhere, and you search everybody, and you go through underwear and do all that. what are you going to do about-- what are you going to vet everybody at home depot who does the 19.95 deal? i don't know how you defend gengs that. >> there was quite a bit of back and forth on whether or not this individual should be sent to guantanamo or should be tried in civilian courts. and a lot of that came from the
president himself. >> and i think what the dynamic you are seeing here is the justice department is basically plowing forward with its case. the fbi is plowing forward with its investigation and to the extent they can they really have been tuning out that sort of white house running commentary that has been going on at the same time. i mean one of the oddities of this whole thing has been first the president tweets that he should be sent-- or is i says he thinks he should go to gitmo. and then overnight seems to have a change of heart, no, no, definitely keep him in new york and try him there. and the whole time that is going on, the prosecutors are doing their case, the fbi are doing their case and the two things aren't necessarily speaking to each other in any meaningful way. so as much as the president seems to be, you know, all over the map as far as the policy issues here go, the straight
line of the d o.j. and the fbi seems to be pretty clear at this point that they are preparing for what may very well be a death penalty case and that doesn't so far seem to be really ite house.f washington or the >> michael, what about trying to find a jury that doesn't know what the president thinks should be done. >> well, most jurors probably wouldn't pay any attention to what this president says. >> he's got 41 million people. >> we're in the city of new york, i mean, the-- i think it was a great victory too have this guy appear charged as a murderer. not as an enemy combat ant, not as some part of the war on ter roar-- terror. this was a guy who murdered innocent people or accused of murdering innocent people, excuse me, i'm running ahead of myself. and i think it's a victory. there comes that moment when the judge comes in, all rise. this guy is going to rise one way or another. and the proceeding goes, he's going to get a fair trial. the jurors, i mean in any city, i think, jurors work really at
being, at doing their duty. most jurors are beautiful things to see, it is one of the great things of america, i think. and that the-- and our response i think will be right response. i would rather see him in manhattan criminal court, personally. i would not-- i would rather not go the fed way and have him be on likers island to introduce him 20 what he should do but the m.c. c is no happy place to do either, that is the federal lockup. i think it was a victory to see that. and the worst thing that could have happened would be to send this guy to gitmo as an enemy combat ant. he's still got chal i had sheikh mohammed, all those years, 16 years after he murdered thousands of people in downtown manhattan he's sitting down there, with kool-aid and still hasn't gone to trial. >> michael daily, devlin barrett, thank you both. >> thank you. >> we leave you tonight with an
interview charlie taped earlier this month with the iconic portrait photographer annie leibovitz. her latest collection of work is called annry leibovitz portraits, 2005 to 2015. >> rose: tell me, annually leeb vit 2005 to 2016. why this book now? what is the story of this book. >> well, charlie-- charlie, you know that i have done over the years books that sort of are works that are accumulated over a period of time. i did a book in 1990 called 1970-1990. and then i did a book in 2005, it was 1990 to 2 o 005 which was photographers life that had the years that i was with susan sontag am i was working, over a year ago, must have been tawg like three months before the election. and i was working on a show for-- that was going to be in
this summer at this brand new incredible foundation, this brand new museum of the world. and it was, my work from 1970 to 1983 was the work i did with "rolling stone" magazine, it was over 8,000 photographs. i saw so many-- so many images that sort of repeated, history, seeing history repeated. i was thinking of all the work, it was august. i was thinking of all the work i had accumulated since 2005, photographers life, and i thought you know, i should try to do an edit on my work now, that would include the work i also did on an updating of the women's project as well as a series i did on artists. and it would end with hillary clinton in the white house. that would be my ending. >> that was your plan. >> that was my plan. it was not an end, it was hillary clinton in the white house was going to be a beginning. so it was-- it was, i put all the work together.
it was kind-- it was actually fairly simp toll do that because there was so much work from 2005. >> rose: then we had an election. >> and then we had an election. and i was like everyone else, i was-- i was in shock. and i actually, i guess a week or so later. i mean i was very lucky because i happened to be with gloria steinham, the women's show was opening opening in new york. and she was so incredible. i was very lucky to be with someone who had been through so much pain, so many, seen so many things, you know, go wrong, you know. and sort of has come out of them and we were sort of walking around like lost sheep not really knowing, you know, what had happened. what-- you know, it was pathetic. i mean so i actually told-- i
don't want to do the book. i don't want to do this. >> rose: even though you put a lot of work into it. >> i mean, yes, yes, but i didn't have my ending. and i-- you know, i love my books because they, they tell a story of the time, you know, it is a collection. it's what i don't get the opportunity to do, you know, working for the magazines. the magazines are wonderful, you know, luxury vehicle to take my photographs. but the books tell these stories. so-- . >> rose: and the story you wanted to tell wasn't there. >> it wasn't there. i floundered. you know,ifieden said come on, you can do it, and i was literally, i will tell you, i think the book falls apart towards the ends. i really do think in the last 20 or 30 pages it's like you can feel me just like not knowing where to go, what to do. i was throwing everything in there. i shot kate mckinnon, throw her in, i shot oprah, throw her in, i shot bruce springsteen,
thrown him in. we had to pick ourselves up. i mean i didn't, you know, i tried to photograph people who were doing good things. >> rose: one of the things you wrote is i guess you could say, they were years when the culture was shifting ways that we didn't quite take it. >> uh-huh. we didn't. we didn't. >> rose: from 2005 to 2016. >> i think when i think about this period, it is such a beautiful period, also because of the obama years. and he was such a great elegant man. and mrs. obama. and but my job is not just politics. as you know. is to look at us overall.
and you know, there's definitely some, i mean we were thrown topsy turvy. look at, you know, the photograph at the beginning of the book of melania trump and donald trump. it's like he was an amusing, an amusing pop culture character, that became the president and then you had this great, this great woman who should have been the president of the united states. rdz it still bewilledders people, doesn't it. >> it is still bewilledderring. >> rose: she is here now with a book. >> you and i have been alive a long time. and we know we are going to right ourselves, i really feel this. i think the women's march, which was really a march of humanity, where everyone came out, and i think that i mean, i go home at
night. i have dinner with my kids. you know, i have the choice of am i going to see what trump did today, or am i going to watch vietnam which is incredible. >> rose: there is a new series by ken burns. >> an incredible series. should i watch, which hillary clinton interview am i going to watch tonight. it is just that i have to believe, i believe in us as people. and i just, i know we will-- and gloria steinham said this, that we will, you know, that we are a movement, we're not one person. and we're going to, you know-- . >> rose: and america as an idea too, as bono has said to me. america is an idea. this country in 200 years has gone here and here. and in terms of conflict and challenge. but you have been a witness to all of that, too. you really have.
>> it's been a privilege, actually, to spend my life photographing our times. and i feel responsible. you know, i will con is a film. >> rose: we are are doing a similar thing. >> redoing a very similar-- i thought that too. i think it's interesting that you took yourself out of the studio. >> rose: yeah. >> and it's not dissimilar to go on location and go out in the field and see what's going on, you know, out in the field. p>> rose: we're telling the story of our time through the stories of people who inhabit our times. i mean you have said famously that give you enough time and you can find the essence of a person. and i believe. >> let me move in and i promise you we will find your soul and within a few weeks we'll
definitely have your soul. but you know, we don't have that amount of time. i don't expect that from the people i photograph. and you know, those really beautiful, incredible soulful pictures are few and far between but you can still document it fairly well. >> rose: you have said before, the photographers life is really the closest to who you are. that is your signature. >> photographers life is very interesting that you bring that up. because it was so important to me when i did it, i-- when i discovered the story of knowing susan and my children being born and my father dying, and. >> there was nothing that would stop me on that collection of material. the assignment seemed irrelevant to me-- you know, not important. >> rose: this was an astounding time of your life for all the reasons that you have talked about and we have written
about. >> i came out of a photographers life. and as the years went on i realized that i wanted to work on was my portrait work. and that i felt very-- that i had let my family, my children, susan, it was too vulnerable. i actually, i don't have a regret about it. i think it's very strong work. i just-- you know, susan said, that photography, you know, interferes too much with experience. and i think that she could be right. she could be right after all. i wonder what she would say today about, you know, what is going on with our-- . >> rose: so was there something missing from a photographers life that you thought should have been in there? >> no, but i-- the thing about
being a photograph certificate that photography is the experience. it is, that is what is interesting. no, i became-- . >> rose: photography is the experience rather than the photographs? >> well, i knew when i was younger that all i wanted out of an experience were the photographs. i didn't want anything else, and i was really-- yes. and so i don't think susan was wrong about, you know, but unless you are a photographer, unless you are a photographer. >> rose: going from artist to athlete to landscapes to whatever, is there something that unites them in your mind? >> well, i do like to, i do like to admire people. and i do like to you know make points. and i like to sell stories. you know, i think that in pill grimmage, the picture that pops up is the store room of in
yongers with which by the way a lot of that material was put in the basement and destroyed in sandy. >> in sandy. >> when the water rose. >> so those photographs of like the nogucci material, in the trunks and all that, i don't think much, i mean, they are kind of history now. but i always wanted to photograph martha graham and i never had the opportunity to do it. and i found the remnants of martha graham in that store room, and it was just like that. i walked in and everything was like that. and i just took that photograph. and you know, her life and in those trunks. >> rose: but do you think of yourself as much journalist as you think of yourself as much photographer? for every bit of you as photographer, are you also artist, journalist, story teller. >> well, i have been doing this for over 45 years.
so the thing is photography is broad and big. and it has many possibilities. and it was interesting to look at the work from 1970 to 1983 because i really just photographed everything i saw. i just-- you know, everything i saw, it was where i was. i always had a camera with me all the time. i was taking photographs, you know, all the time. it's kind of a tour deforce that worked from that time. it's like a young man, i mean 1920-21. out there having that energy and strength to go out there. and shoot like that. in the 80s when after rolling stone you know, i went to "vanity fair." and senior brown was running "vanity fair," she was trying to pull it up and bring it back, and have it survive. and she, you know, i started, i
had already started before i left rolling stone doing portraits, you know, but the journalism hasn't left. the journalism is. there i understand journalism. but i left journalism behind because i felt strongly that i was going to have a voises in my photographs. you know. and, and, and i felt that you are not supposed to do that with journalism. you have to stay objective. and i then sort of said okay, i'm going to be a portrait photographer because it is okay to have a point of view. in the photograph. but journalism is definitely, definitely there. i mean when things happen so fast, i think that's journalism. i think when you know you have a little more time, to think about it, it becomes, it can become something else. >> rose: it becomes art too. >> well, art is great. i mean, you knowk i love art and i admire. i mean the cover of the book is
supposed to be bib i will kal. >> rose: this cover. >> yes. >> rose: it is bub i will kal. >> yes, because it started off, i wanted to work on a series on the bible, i wanted to do-- . >> rose: the stories of the garden. >> yes. and then it turned into, she is probably the last person in the world you would want to be eve. she turned into maria bromowitz with a snake is what it turned into. >> rose: when you see that photograph, what do you say? >> well, i'm impressed with her as a performance artist. i really enjoy performance art. and i think that it is-- but what is sort of saves it to me is you turn it over. that is james franco. >> rose: yes, the two of them. >> it's just a little bit-- . >> rose: adam and eve. >> yes strks adam and eve but it's a little bit-- off, just a
little bit off. i hope. >> rose: have you been influenced by the great editors that you have worked with at rolling stone? >> i have been so lucky. my life and my work, you know, started off like sum-- we were both young, he built rolling stone from scratch. you know, he was, it was hunter thompson, tom wolfe, gonczo journalism, you know, we were out there. it was, and going from yawn to tina brown who, you know, had her own, you know, quirky way of looking at things. and was fascinated with popular culture. >> rose: how did they influence you. >> she turned, then you go to graden carter who is like the mature older, you know, actually graden and i are the same age.
and so we, you know, to work with graden and then anna wintour who is really understands popular culture and fashion and art and theater. >> rose: but how did they define you? i mean from juan went tore tina brown, to graden carter to anna wintour. are they they part of the definition of annie leibowitz-- leibovitz after 13 years at rolling stone it was hard for anyone to tell me what to do. >> rose: it was probably hard for anyone to tell you what to do for a long time before. >> and they understood, i think they were smart enough to know, to let me go do what i do. and find my way. >> rose: were you tough enough to be able to do it. >> i loved my work. i mean i-- you know, every now and then they, listen, something like caitlyn jenner, that's,
that's gradeen, you know, having the courage to run caitlyn on the cover. but he doesn't come to the shoot, and we don't talk about what is going to be. >> rose: so what was his contribution? >> that he has the wherewithal to run something like caitlyn jenner on the cover. >> rose: an i would say, he has the confidence to trust you. said to me the definition of a good editor is being able to recognize a great writer. that's it. and a photographer is a great writer working with a camera, rather than a pen. >> she gave me, when she was working for "the new yorker" she gave me the o.j. simpson story. and i was like, oh my god, you know. i remember watching it at night on the news thinking i'm just so glad i'm not. there and then i get a call from
tina and says go out and, and, and shoot this. and it was-- . >> rose: just go shoot it. >> yeah. no one tells you, i mean i had a hard time getting into the court room, like i was trying to go the standard way with all the-- with all of the you know get on the pool, get into the pool, and then the pool turned me downment they wouldn't let me go into the court room. and then it turns out that the judge was a fan of my work. and he said well, this is my court room. you can come in. and i just photographed schapiro who was trying to work out something with o.j. to take his picture. and all the rest is blah, blah, blah. >> rose: but here is the point. at what point did you shooting it, what point did you become a star? so that as the judge at o swrrks simpson, the idea of adding annie leibovitz take the
picture. >> you know, in that work i talk about this story. because it is kind of a turning point where it's kind of thankless to be well-known and do what i do on some level. and sometimes it works to your advantage. and that is the advantage, and in that particular story. in fact, it did help. you were in hollywood. you were in l.a i mean it helped, all those little things, you know, sort of matter. it doesn't matter in the long run, what matters is your work. you know, i mean, what you do, how you do it. i mean it is perplex -- perplexing to me to be well-known about what i do. but i also have a theory that, because i work for over 20 years. in a vacuum. hi no idea. i didn't really know that people knew my work. the first book i put out was 1970-1990. in 1990, and then it was people
knew my work. they didn't know who, you know, who i was. >> rose: these were the rolling stone years. >> no, this was-- yes, included rolling stone at the beginning of ann "vanity fair." but so it was-- you know me. i'm still a bit awkward, you know, like last niem i-- time i saw you i said i'm really nervous doing this. you said suck it up, you know, you can do this. come on. >> rose: we got something to do here. so you know i make my way, now have i children and it really doesn't matter to me. >> what reasons that i can present myself or present the work and present what we do. you know, what i do. and, and that really matters to me. i mean the women, i was so proud of this traveling global women's show that went around the hast year and we had all this new work. >> rose: because.
>> for my daughters, for my three daughters, quite honestly. that-- and for the rest of the children. >> rose: you wanted them to know a how much their mother was appreciatedded. and how much their, the value of her work was celebrated? >> because we want to do good things. we want n the long run we want to do things that matter. i mean why bother otherwise. why bother. >> i couldn't agree more, why bother. you know. so when did you get that? when did you get to that point? was it the kids. >> no, i think when i was young i was very brash and you know,-- . >> rose: were you born brash. >> no, i don't think so. no, i-- i didn't-- charlie, i was not born brash. i was actually so naive and so you know, not exactly stupid but i was kind of like bright eyed. i kontd believe like you know
everything that i was walking into. >> rose: you mean did that begin with rolling stone. >> rolling stone. >> rose: were you hanging out, two of the biggest rock incomes roll stars ever. >> i went on tour with the rolling stones in 1972 for two or three cities and in 1975 i was the tour photographer for the rolling stones. i hung on to my camera for dear life. >> rose: really? because what, it was your security blanket. >> no, because it-- scared the hell out of me. i mean it was-- you know, i took my tennis racket. thinking oh great, we'll still at a good hotel. i was so naive, you know. >> rose: but you got caught up in the lifestyle too. >> i got caught up in the lifestyle. >> rose: did that almost end it for you. >> yeah, it did, it is very, very dangerous it was very bad. first time something overcame me. >> rose: it was bigger than you. >> it was bigger than me. and you always think when are you young you can take any of this stuff. and you are just, it is basically stupid.
stupid. >> rose: and when do you realize you are in over your head, that you are addicted? >> i wasn't really-- you know,-- i think after i got off the rolling stone tour in 75y, you know, it was like, it took me awhile to get off the tour. >> rose: right. >> but i always knew i wanted to get off. it wasn't something i really-- it's not attractive. >> rose: so you weren't addicted to the lifestyle. >> yeah t was-- no, it was-- you know, when you take photographs and you don't have a life, you know, basically are you just taking photographs all the time, you go between assignment and assignment, it was something to fill in between. >> rose: have you had. >> having a life is so important. building a life. i didn't know how to build a life and i had to work on that wz . >> rose: and what started that, susan? >> susan was very helpful. >> rose: in building a life. >> i was determined to-- to you
know when i met susan i was-- i was sort of interested in several, several relationships. and susan was the one-- i was waiting to see the one to call back. susan called back. okay. >> rose: you were waiting to see who would call back. >> well, several thing were going on in. and she was, you know, very-- you know, and i kind of thought about this relationship with susan. and i thought oh god, this is going to mean i'm going to have to get-- i'm going to have to be good. this is going to be about my work. this is what it is going to be. >> rose: because. >> she wouldn't have it any other way. >> that's right, that's right. she's tough. she was tough. she really wanted-- . >> rose: she set a bar for the quality of life. >> she dispt have to do much to set a bar. i mean she was the bar. you know. you know, she was an
extraordinary woman. and you know, and if we miss her right now, it's because we-- someone that could talk about this time. >> rose: she could define the time. >> i don't hear anyone like that rrs when were you going through this process of living, and doing, did you have anybody that was a role model for snu was there somebody that oh, i mean was there somebody, was it somebody like. >> we talked about this bmplet i love photography and i have admired photography. >> rose: were you. >> cartier brison, and robert frank when i was going to school. >> rose: the great ones. >> avadon and penn, you know. >> rose: irving penn and richard avadon and helmut newton and diane arbus. you know, sally man, i love sally man, i lovlin davis. i mean i love photography. and i just eat it up.
i feel like i'm an encyclopedia inside of this photography. and it is just, it's so great to have it in your head when you go off, you know, when i was photographing the queen and said well, i really in thinking about cecil b as i'm taking your picture. and she said, airchie, you've really got to find your own way. >> rose: is that the way to talk. >> annie, you must really find your own way, she was very disappointed because i sort of based the shoot on cecil b. >> rose: isn't this greats. here is the queen who sits for you. didn't she sit for lucien ford portrait. >> yes, that was a very strange, interesting painting. it was more crown than it was head. but i-- that is such an important point you are bringing, just to bring up the fact that she sat, she really understands who she. is in that respect 679 and she
gives herself over. she knows she is going to be, you know, interpreted in so, so many ways. and she liked the lucien ford painting. i mean you know, if i were her i don't know if i would-- i love him but that was a weird painting. >> rose: yeah. >> it was like-- . >> rose: so how do you feel about celebrity? >> you know, whenever i hear it i cringe. i just think it's too nothing. >> so somebody thinks that show at some point categorize you as someone who takes photograph owes of celebrities you would pounce on them. >> probably if they were in the room but i would just-- i mean listen, i think there are so many different-- oh, god, you know, i mean i'm a photographer.
and that is what i am. >> probably so. >> and i think that more than because the digital work is so interesting now. there is more involved in creating the picture, you know. >> rose: so the first word for you is artist, not photographer. >> thank you, yes. i would like that, but i don't know if it will-- it will get there, but yeah. >> rose: do you really doubt that? >> i was just going to say thank you. and rock-- . >> rose: who uses the camera,
you are an artist who uses a camera, that is your brush, that is your penn. >> it's come to that. i have had many different stages of photography, as there are many different ways to take photographs. but i feel now, i am in that stage of my life where i use the camera, you know, in that way. which is why this book was for me a brave thing because it sthoas the style of this portrait work for right now. and it's different than any other work i have done. >> rose: i think you have said this, and i hope you have. >> me too. >> rose: you welcome age and learn from age. >> have i said that. i think it's not talked about enough, how interesting it is. >> i really do. i mean i. >> it is really exciting.
and it doesn't mean you are going to necessarily take a better photograph but you know what you are doing. and it, it is just great, i love it. 3 i just love it you know when you-- -- you known when he does something really, really great. and has there been any dim anythings in your enthusiasm? >> no, because i am photographing people and i just-- every time t is a different experience each time. and there is-- you know, there is just different aspects to every single, every single shoot. i mean i do, i push myself, one of the reasons, i have gone through three or four studios, you know, in this, in new york city. i have had a glamorous big studio. i, on purpose have an office because i want to go out.
i want to be on location. i want to be where the person lives if i can, you know, like have something to do with who they are. so it keeps it, like it keeps it really you know, interesting. i am into this. you also didded me about other people. i mean all these photographers did-- all these photographers that i admired until they dropped, one way or another, that is really a great example. i mean this is a funny example but carsch of ot a wa, 88 years old, has a little room in an apartment here in new york. would come down from canada every month and take portraits. you know it is-- i'm that it, you know. i'm going to do it until, you know, and-- . >> rose: until you can't do it any more. >> yeah, hopefully. >> rose: when you put this together, what part of it, what
part of it are you the proudest of? >> i didn't expect to like it as much as i did with all-- i didn't-- it was such new work it was done so fast. that usually i have more time you know like 1970-1990. that was like 20 years to look at something. this is like since 2005 which seems like it wasn't as long a time to look at the work and really understand it. and i-- and we literally in order to get the book out, you know, we had to put it together by the seat of our pants, seat of my pants. and basically i was all over the place about what should go in and what should go out and how many pages. and i didn't want it to be so big. i wanted it to be a smaller volume because you just can't pick up the book after a certain
point. ar bus life weighs nine powntds. i kept waiting for someone to tell me to easyity. no one wanted to tell me to edit it is such a big book. in the long run your attention span, no one really looks at a book page by page, they go in the middle and find a spot but in the long run, i'm-- i'm, you know, it was frightening for me not to have the journal, not journalism but the more reppertaj style work and just do pure portraiture which is why i called it portraits. i wanted to be really clear that, you know t wasn't photographers life. all the other books have had different styles. and this was, this is one style, you know, throughout. so i'm still trying to come to terms with it myself about what it looks like and what it is. >> when have you been the most vulnerable? >> i think the financial thing was a long time coming. you know, it's like i just lived
by the seat of my pants more or less and just kind of went. and i would do assignments and pay for them myself and you know, had no regard for money. had no regard for business. if you are an artist, you know, all the stupid things where you think are you not supposed to be, are you not supposed to be engaged in that. well, that is completely not happening any more. and it is like you get a good kick in your pants and you, you know, there aren't going to be any people, i said this before, but whitehorses riding in to save you. i just work really hard and picked it all up and put it back together and understand my big so much more. and things are better than ever in that regard. i didn't really understand susan's illness, you know, that well. and i, it was a great lesson about dying. >> what is the lesson about
dying? >> well there are good deaths and bad deaths. you know, there are ways. susan wanted to live so much. she didn't want to die. and i wish i had-- i don't know if anyone could have helped her because she was-- all of her friends, she was so determined it live, you couldn't talk to her about dying. and i'm not too sure that was right in the long run. my subsequent deaths of people who really matter so much, like my father or mother they were beautiful deaths, my father died with, you know, my mother holding him and my mother died with us as a family, you know, all around. so i just didn't, you know, when someone first dies that is very close to you, you don't know what you are doing. and everyone treats you so differently. so i regret that i didn't know
what i was doing, when-- i thought i was doing the right thing. i thought it was helping her, that it would get her out to seattle for the bone mar row, you know, sit up, and everyone, you noarks i was sort of like a camp director where i was setting up, people coming in and out, making sure she had everything she needed. >> rose: do you think will you find that kind of love ever again? >> you know, i-- z i think i'm so busy between my children and my work, i haven't really, you are not the first person to ask me that. and it throws me. it really throws me because i haven't really-- i mean i don't think, i honestly don't think too many people can put up with me, you know, quite honestly because i'm so, i work so hard. i have my children. i love my children. that is a full-time-- i had no idea what it meant to have children when i had children like everyone else. and it's full on. and between that, i'm-- if someone wants to jump in with that, you know, i'm interested.
i don't know, who knows. i don't know, this could be a good way to sort of take applications. >> well, yes, it could be an announcement, thank you. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: this is great. >> it is so good to see you. >> rose: thank you. >> really, really, i men that, i really mean that. >> rose: thank you so much. for more about this program and earlier episodes visit us online at pbs.org and charlie rose.com. #r captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org
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