tv Charlie Rose PBS September 20, 2017 12:00pm-1:01pm PDT
>> rose: welcome to the program. the 72nd united nations' general assembly opened today. president trump made headlines with his threat to north korea. joining me to talk about the unga and president's speech is ian bremmer, president of the eurasia group, also zanny minton beddoes, editor-in-chief of the "economist." >> what the typical u.n. speech is not the kind of speech that audience is used to. if you compare it to his campaign or inauguration speech, i think he was less america first even than one might have expected. on the campaign he basically said the u.n. was a disaster and why on earth would anyone want to do with it. today he said it was an investment worth of making. >> rose: we look at the friend "victoria and abdul" with director stephen frears and star
judi dench. >> there she was in her '80s, she says all her friends are dying, and still the weight of sovereignty on her shoulders and getting more difficult every day. god knows we feel it at our ages, more and more difficult every day to have to carry out her duties. and then quite suddenly this young man turns up, a and that feeling that has obviously always been in her, that kind of huge zest for -- not perhaps for life but for enjoying somebody's company, at ease from everybody else. suddenly, it was reawakened. >> rose: ian bremmer, zanny minton beddoes, stephen frears and judi dench -- dame judi dench -- when we continue.
>> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by the following: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: leaders from around the world gather today for the opening debate of the 72n 72nd united nations' general assembly. in the most anticipated speech to have the session. president trump addressed a global forum for the first time. in his 40 minute speech, trump threatened to totally destroy north korea and called iran a rogue nation. >> the united states has done very well since election day last november 8th.
the stock market is at an all-time high, a record. unemployment is at its lowest level in 16 years, and because of our regulatory and other reforms, we have more people working in the united states today than ever before. we meet at a time of both immense promise and great peril. it is entirely up to us whether we lift the world to new heights or let it fall into a valley of disrepair. the united states will forever be a great friend to the world and especially to its allies, but we can no longer be taken advantage of or enter into a one-sided deal where the united states gets nothing in return. the united states has great strength and patience, but if it is forced to defend itself or
its allies, we will have no choice but to totally destroy north korea. "rocket man" is on a suicide mission for himself and for his regime. it is an outrage that some nations would not only trade with such a regime but would arm, supply and financially support a country that imperils the world with nuclear conflict. the iranian government masks a corrupt dictatorship behind the false guise of a democracy. it has turned a wealthy country with a rich history and culture into an economically depleted rogue state whose chief exports are violence, bloodshed and chaos. the iran deal was one of the worst and most one-sided transactions the united states has ever entered into.
frankly, that deal is an embarrassment to the united states, and i don't think you've heard the last of it, believe me. we cannot abide by an agreement if it provides cover for the eventual construction of a nuclear program. and above all, iran's government must stop supporting terrorists, begin serving its own people and respect the sovereign rights of its neighbors. >> rose: the president also said that the united states was prepared to take further action on venezuela. joining me to talk about all this, ian bremmer, president of the eurasia group, and zanny minton beddoes, she is the editor-in-chief of the "economist." i am pleased to have them both back at this table. welcome. >> thank you. >> rose: the president's speech. what did you think? >> at one level, it was vintage trump. this is sort of what you would expect. the great "rocket man" is on a suicide mission, totally destroy
it. it's not the typical u.n. speech, not the kind of speech that audience is used to. having said that, if you compare it to his campaign speeches or inauguration speech, i think he was less bellicose and america first as one might have expected. on the campaign he said the u.n. was a disaster. today he said it was an investment worth making. >> even though the u.s. paid a lot more than every other country. >> in many ways, it didn't go down -- i think the swedish foreign minister said wrong speech, wrong time, wrong out yens. but if you compare it to trump on the campaign trail or at home, this wasn't particularly surprising or out of the ordinary. >> rose: ian? if trump's speech to the join session of congress was an a and let's say riyadh his first international speech was an a
minus this was a b or b plus. i agree, there are a few bits the media will have its hair lit on fire about but in general this was a well-read, well-crafted speech. they didn't have the steve bannon economic nationalism, or the identity politics you got in warsaw, but you got a lot of steve miller on iran and north korea. >> rose: north korea is understandable but to take off like he did on iran. >> they have clearly been projecting they have been getting ready for this some time. >> rose: for riyadh. exactly. i think the bigger issue is the united nations is an organization formed by the americans in our image. it's our values, liberal democracy, universal human rights, it's things we stood for and got our allies behind us. there have been presidents who have had challenges with the u.n. historically, but trump is sort of antithetical to the u.n., right.
he doesn't support the values. in fact, he thinks value-based alliances allow our allies to treat us like patsies, take advantage of us and make us pay for things that we otherwise wouldn't be actually willing to pay. to have someone like that who is truly a unilateralist who says this is all about sovereignty deliver that on the u.n. stage, that's bigger turn than the north korea or iran stuff. >> rose: fair enough. i think what's interesting, kudos to steve miller for trying but not succeeding -- >> rose: we assume. but it was written, there was an attempt to remake history to suggest that actually the u.n. had always been a place for benign nationalism and that's what the u.n. was all about and in some sense i listen to it and say wait a minute does he actually know what the u.n. is founded on? if you listen to president macron today whose speech was
about multi-laterallism, that was never uttered by the president, and the president gave a vision of the u.n. i suspect nobody in that audience recognized. >> rose: he defined america first as being sovereignty, security and prosperity, and then right after that he said, look, we've got some problems that threaten us all and we need to work together on those problems. that's the multi-lateral part of it. >> yes, but we need to work together and it's all about putting our nation first and ourselves first, and his vision of what the u.n. is about is a kind of group of countries that come together and, you know, perhaps try and solve problems where he thinks problems are to be solved whether iran or north korea. but there is nothing about the brutal internationalist order so many people think the u.n. stands for. >> you find problems that are big and if you can come together on transaction and engage and
frankly on north korea that trump approach has borne fruit. 15 countries sitting around a table as round as this but bigger agreeing to move unprecedented levels of sanctions against the nortkorean regime. the trump administration deserves credit for that and so does kim jong un for forcing it to happen but that's different than talking about what the u.n. is for. the u.n. is for trying to stop wars from happening. the u.n. is trying to build a better planet like unicef. >> he said the u.n. was like a possie of cowboys going after the bad guys. >> rose: is he wrong when he says a country should act in their own interest is this. >> no, he's not wrong about that, but i think the general review of the american -- the postwar order was it was in america's interests to set up an international order of institutions and rules and
depends on what you mean by a country's enlightened self-interest. the view trump has is right here, right now, this country, this situation. >> rose: let me give you an example -- >> fiduciary responsibility, you can say you're a captive industry, you say i have is it fiduciary responsibility to maximize shareholder return this quarter and i'll do everything possible, i'll be like mack the knife,ly do everything i can. or you can say my fiduciary responsibility is to be a steward of this company for all the people who invested over the long run. trump's definition of stewardship in the united states is the former. it's the fiduciary duty of someone who understands real estate deals. >> sometimes and maybe with iran that would be okay, but climate change, that's where this transactional approach is short. he looks at one deal and says this is not in our interest,
we're out, whereas the broader multi-laterallism in the u.n. epitomizes that's the best thing that's come up. >> rose: two ideas over the weekend, maybe the united states may be relooking at the paris accord. h.r. mcmaster suggested that's possible in this weekend interview. same thing about suggesting also they wouldn't necessarily withdraw from the iran nuclear deal. >> i think certainly the latter is plausible and possibly the former but the interesting thing is -- and there is clearly a move from a lot of bombast at the beginning of the administration, creating uncertainty, what was going to happen, what was the unilateralist america first approach. amongst the u.n. delegates in the world broadly, there's a sense that actually there is not as much dangerous stuff to it as we feared. but people aren't quite certain and no one's really sure because the transactional twitter-bound president, no one's quite sure where he's going next or what's
happening next. so i agree with you, in reality, the change in u.s. position has been much less dramatic than one might have expected seven, eight months ago, but some of the uncertainty creates its own damage. so i think if you're outside the u.s. you worry about whether you can rely on the u.s. now. >> and i take on the iran issue, certainly. which is that trump has said on many occasions that this is a horrible deal, we're bamboozled, swindled, need to get out of it, the iranians are cheating. he particularly hated having to certify that the iranians have so far been living up to the deal. even though the state department certified it he said well they're really not, not the spirit and probably not even the reality. behind the scenes, i have heard that the white house is trying to come up with a mechanism whereby they don't certify but they actually pull out of the deal and allow trump to say see we need to be doing this. but the french, saudis, israelis
behind the scenes are telling trump, yeah, yeah, bad deal but don't pull out of this deal because if you do everybody else is sticking with it and we'll be in a worse place. i think the trump administration understands that. >> rose: do you think that's the reason they're moving to not pulling out. >> yes. >> rose: because the allies don't want them to? >> unlike other things, trump understands he doesn't know what he's doing. when trump vonning for president he's like n.a.t.o. is obsolete. he gives an interview after he's president saying i'm committed to n.a.t.o. and the rest. he said, look, back then as a businessman no one would talk to me about n.a.t.o., i've changed. i've never seen trump admit he doesn't know anything ability health care or taxes before or even trade, but on big national security issues, i do think that he's more willing to let the generals kind of do it and, frankly, that should give some comfort to a lot of the allies that aren't so sure about the unrelenting tweets and the fact that we don't really have an
adult, you know -- >> the other interesting thing about this is we should all welcome an administration more normal or less dramatically different. but outside of the u.s., particularly amongst countries and cons that have traditionally been allies, the trump brand is now such a toxic brand it is domestically much harder for those governments to avertly be seen to be too close to trump. if germany now in the german election, angela merkel is almost certainly going to win next weekend, but the chief guy on the opposition has been hammering her for saying she's too close to the president. so there is that way in which america under president trump has become part of domestic politics in allied countries in particular which is not helping. >> mexico, south korea. i mean, this is becoming a serious problem. >> rose: in terms of countries simply don't have credibility -- the president doesn't have
credibility and they have trouble believing him? >> yes, and it's affecting the politics inside those countries. you can, as an opposition member to a government, you can use as a club to help yourself the fact that you're more anti-trump and more anti-american than this president whose actually really caught in with the establishment and just doing it to line his own politics and whatever the reason happens to be. licies actually end up being if much less america first isolationist than people feared. and i think you're right in that the administration is becoming more normal and, charlie, you are, too, and less dramatic in its changes. but the damage politically amongst allies is already done in that public opinion is anti-trump. macron was hit hard, one of the reasons his popularity plunged because the french said what are you doing inviting the president over on bastille day.
>> and trump says he wants to have a parade like the shoafts and north koreans. >> rose: where are you on north korea. >> we have statements by nicki haley who says their running out of rope, i think it's fantasy land. i don't believe we have realistic military options against the north koreans given our allies in the region and what we would be exposing them to. but i do believe the process of trying to coral the largest possible group all of which see north korean option antithetical to their own progress -- in a world that's fragmented and cert gutierrez made it clear today, as fragmented as the world is, it's almost impossible to get a 15-0 vote on anything in the security council and we're
consistently doing it on north korea and that the not because of trump, it's because everybody recognizes this is the only process that has a glimmer of working. >> rose: what do the 15 votes suggest if sanctions don't work? >> they suggest we maintain the sanctions, eventually we probably start trying to engaging and enticing them with carrots. eventually, what happens with north korea is we live with the fact they have nuclear power as with pakistan -- >> rose: nonproliferation in japan and. >> not so much. as long as the americans are continuing to provide a feasible and believable nuclear umbrella with troops, i don't think -- the japanese are very opposed to nuclear weapons, but i do think that the potential to do a deal with north korea is not until the north koreans feel like they've hit enough technological capacity that they're safe from
any plausible first strike attack from americans. >> i think that's right and i agree with you that it's probably less dangerous than we have been worrying about in the last few weeks particularly, but that said i'm perhaps not as sang -- sanguin. i do worry even now about the possibility of miscalculation. i don't think there is a military solution, i don't think there will be any sort of big preemptive strikes but perhaps as sanguine as it sounds, there are people who say we cannot get there and need to let them act. >> rose: do you think the north koreans do this because they don't take the u.s. threats seriously and the administration may be accurate when it says, you know, we have to do
something, say something to make them to get their attention that we're serious about this? >> i have no idea. i've never met kim jong un and i'm not at all a korea specialist but it seems to me that there are several things going on. one is that this is an individual whose entire family for generations now has built itself up in part in opposition to th graceiation of the united states. it's a huge -- it's not just that they will stop if they feel that the united states is taking them seriously. i think it's a very big part of what north korea is which is why the idea that they will be stopped from reaching nuclear capacity seems to me to be somewhat unlikely. >> we have to remember allies, too. i thought it was very interesting the last time the north koreans tested a missile that went over through japanese airspace you know here in the united states, biggest headlines
the next morning. in japan i was looking at n.h.k., their lead show, and there were six top topics. it wasn't one of the six. and i think that, you know, the fact is that the japanese and the south koreans have been living with a north korea that has the ability to decimate them for a long time now, an now that their principal ally the united states is paying attention, they say wait a second, you can do that, but if you have the about to hit the united states we have to take action, that doesn't play well in that part of the world. zanny and i have talked about the fact that the united states, the ultimate policies are probably going to be not so different than they were but the way that we're approaching them, the america-first language that it's all being couched in is leading to a much faster unwind of a lot of these alliances. >> will there be an iranian reaction to what they've heard
today? >> there may have been one all right, which i haven't seen. >> rose: it's a rather strong denunciation. it was more than evil empire. >> it was a strong denunciation but i think against the backdrop as ian's laid out of the general view that the likelihood of precipitous action by the united states is going down day by day. i suspect there will be a calibrated response from iran. >> i saw president ru are you rt this today. >> rose: he heard it? he knew what was coming. it was if the americans pull out the conditions by which we decided to nonproliferate will be different. he sounded the way the chinese
sound when responding to the original taiwanees phone call, showing they were angry and strong but not doing anything precipitous unless they saw action. >> it's terrible but actually if the president moves away from blowing up the nuclear cord iran is sitting pretty because the rest of his u.s. strategy toward iran is muddled. on the one hand he wants to blow et up because he wants to partly undo president obama's legacy, if you look at where iran is gaining influence, it's like syria where the u.s. has no way of thinking how to respond because they want to get out. >> rose: he's having a problem with obama's legacy because on the one hand he was not able to repeal healthcare, he may go back to the paris accords, may, and thirdly, may leave the iran nuclear deal. those the three tenants of the
obama success. >> i don't think he' go back on paris. >> rose: there is two years till it goes into effect. >> there is that and there is the issue so many states and corporations in the united states say we'll uphold it anyway, doesn't matter what you do. so the ability of trump -- you and i talked about this after the election, we said at the end of the day, as much as trump is off the rails ideologically, the about of presidents to move the needle on policy is much less and we're seeing that. >> rose: has china stepped into a vacuum? >> no, china recognizes they have greater opportunities in their backyard because trump is not consistent on things like trade and not consistent on what he says on security. but the chinese, number one, they're not ready to be the global leader. they don't want to step their head over the parapet yet and also the chinese are deeply concerned about instability that could come from trump in the way
the russians like it. >> i found one thing we can disagree on because you're right they're not stepping into an overt leadership role but they are very much there and making the most of the vacuum created by the u.s. whether in one belt one road, their whole infrastructure expansion -- >> rose: in their region, too. in their region but beyond their region. >> rose: here's an interesting thing the three of us we're sitting at the same event over the weekend and we heard i thought an intelligence voice in the american military say, you know, the most important relationship for the united states may very well be with india. >> i thought that was extremely interesting, i also think it's a very long-term horizon in the sense that over decades, you know, it's a democracy, it's a very fast-growing country. i would say in the next decade, 15 years, i wouldn't give up focusing on china. i think there's a hugely -- >> rose: accelerate your opening to india.
>> yes. india's been one of the wins -- >> rose: you talked earlier about allies. the point is the u.s. needs to focus on its allies, thinking about western europe. >> and india wants more of us, no question. but modi just had a summit with abe. couldn't have gone better. taking about security cooperation. so the indians are playing more of a geopolitical role. i was surprised as you were when we are heard the official comment about india, but that also depends on a united states that in 10 or 20 years-time that wants to play the global strategic role and play for it that we have an historic role and i don't know that i would bet on a lot of that. >> that's the biggest question, which is the trump administration has taken a step change in america's attitude to as extreme as eight monthsnot ago but very much a step change. the question is -- two
questions, firstly, does the world move on sufficiently that even after the administration, you could go back to the status quo. secondly, does america want to do that or have americans view of what america's role is changed in a way that, for instance, you know, america's traditionally been the champion of the global training system. i can't see very many free traders in either party now. either domestically or in terms of where the rest of the world is, i'm not sure after this administration, whether after three and a half years or seven and a half years, we go back to what everyone has talked about as being the kind of america. >> i think this is exactly right and i think there are very large piece toffs american power establishment that believes once trump goes we could get back to status quo ante on both of these things. and i am deeply skeptical given how past the world moves, how fast our allies are starting to think not sure about all this and where the average american is that the 2020 and 2024 results are going to allow us.
>> rose: you've heard people say if trump fails we may see a more extreme populist from the left or the right. >> yeah, and i don't think either of those would be signing up to the american-led international order in the seam way that we -- and a lot of foreign policy elite in this country think that's still there to be gone back to. >> i think if bernie had been president we would not have an expansion of afghanistan troops the way we are now under the trump administration. >> rose: that's an interesting idea to leave for the next session. thank you. >> thank you. >> rose: thank you, sannie, great to see you. back in a moment. stay with us. >> rose: "victoria and abdul," dame judi dench plays queen victoria a role she portrayed in the 177 film mrs. brown. the film focuses on the
friendship between queen victoria and indian servant turned teacher abdul kareem. here is a look at the trailer. >> i'm 81 years of age and have almost a billion citizens. i have been in office 62 years, making me the longest serving monarch in history. ( snoring ) are we finished? >> abdul, you will travel to england to the royal household. you will present the queen with a ceremonial coin. >> whatever you do, you must not look at her majesty. >> there's a famine in india. prime minister, you really are terribly depressing. >> yes. our majesty. i suddenly feel a great deal better. >> she has requested mr. karim be her personal footman.
>> how do you like your scottish costumes? >> they are very scratchy. everything in scotland is scratchy. >> what can they be talking about? >> what is a mango? a fruit. i would like a mango. they only grow in independence cay. >> i'm impress of india, so have one sent. no one really knows what it's like to be queen. >> mother -- are you spying on me? everyone dice and i just go on and on. what is the point? >> service, your majesty. we are here for a greater purpose. >> you are a servant no longer. you will teach me erdue and the qur'an. >> it will upset the order of everything. >> drop this indian peasant or we will have you certified insane. >> treason! treason. i am cantankerous, greedy, fat. i am, perhaps, disagreeably attached to power, but i am
anything but insane. i am queen of england, impress of india -- empress of india. abdul has risen on his on merits. now he is my friend. i haven't been as happy as this for years. >> a little surprise. what is it? a mango, your majesty. it's -- off. sir henry, this hang mango is o! >> rose: i am pleased to have dame judi dench and director stephen frears back at this table. wwelcome. >> thank you. >> rose: this sounds like you miffed an idea and said let's write a book about it. >> no, this story was uncovered recently. i'm innocent, they just turned rose: i asked you about queen victoria when we were
waiting and said how would she feel about:queen elizabeth. you said she liked very few people principally john brown and abdul karim. >> yes. this film might prove the thing we say about her, we are not amused, i think she was amused a lot of the time. >> rose: you get that idea from the relationship. >> and that's the feeling she had for albert and john brown and she had it for other people and probably laughed a lot actually. >> rose: where does she stand in terms of the memorable characters up portrayed on screen either fictional or real? >> i don't know. >> rose: you don't know. i never know. i never know, you know. i do it and he tells me how to do it and i get up and do it and then i see it and then i want to change it. >> rose: we'll get to him in a moment. so tell me how you see her.
>> well, i see her just in terms of the fact that i had an opportunity to play her 20 years ago, so i'd done that kind of homework. and then i knew the story about her. then very, very surprised to fiend that there she was when i -- you know, in her '80s and she says all her friends dying and still the weight of sovereignty on her shoulders very much so and getting more and more difficult every day. god knows we feel it as our ages, more and more difficult every day to have to carry out her duties, and then quite suddenly this young man turns up and that feeling that has obviously always been in her, that kind of huge zest for -- not perhaps for life but for enjoying somebody's company, at
ease from everybody else, suddenly it was reawakened. >> rose: so what was it about him that made him interesting as a companion to this powerful queen? >> as i understand it, she liked him standing behind her because it made her look good. but i think she was interested in her subjects, and suddenly a man appeared from another part of the world which she was empress of india by then, and this idea of learning urdu arrived. i'm only guessing but that seems to be the area. >> he's such a good looking young man. >> i made him good looking. >> rose: but john brown was really good looking wasn't he? >> he was, looked like billy connelly, didn't he? ( laughter ) >> sorry, you were saying... >> rose: what was the magic between them? they just liked each other, could talk to each other?
everybody is uneasy around her and here is somebody who was at ease around here. >> absolutely. what i liked about the script was the empire was so ridiculous and the pomp of the court was so absurd and suddenly there was some who wasn't part of it. >> rose: take a look. this is when queen victoria is asking abdul to become her teacher. >> i think we are not here to worry about ourselves. we are here for a greater purpose. in the qur'an, it says we are here for the good of others. >> the qur'an. i know the qur'an by heart. >> isn't it long? contains 16236 verses. you know every word? many muslim people know the qur'an. >> i thought you were hindu. am a muslim, your majesty. i learned the qur'an from my father, he's my munshi, my
teacher. >> well, we would like you to be the queen's munshi. >> but i'm only a servant, your majesty. a servant cannot be a munshi. >> well, you are a servant no longer. you are my teacher. you will teach me urdu and the qur'an and anything else you can think of. >> rose: what a great scene. i think she must have found him exotic. >> rose: exotic? yes, exotic like the mango. >> rose: what do you mean by exotic? >> i remember my friend said you liked it all because it was exotic and i was forced to acknowledge he might have had a point that somebody comes from another country, another color, dressed in these extraordinary clothes. >> rose: interesting because he's different? >> different is that yeah, brings something new and fresh to the scene.
>> absolutely. >> rose: yeah. how -- >> when i met him, he came into the room, by the time he left, i said well, i could see why judi would like him. >> rose: you just see her as queen victoria. >> i'm afraid so. it's not difficult. she played it already. i don't get much for imagination. i said i'll only make it with judi. >> rose: is that right? they suggested other people and i said don't be silly. >> rose: don't be silly. if you want me you have judi. >> yes. it's a ridiculous idea to make it with someone else. >> rose: yeah. but does she remind you -- has she achieved this place -- you're going to hate me for this -- has she achieved this place in england that she's almost like royalty? >> judi or queen victoria? >> rose: judi. queen victoria was the most powerful woman in the world, so you have to have someone who can do that. >> rose: who can be believable
as powerful. >> she also appears to be a teenager. >> rose: she does. the film was also mischievous, so here is an actress who can play somebody powerful and is mischievous. >> rose: what do we know about how she felt when she became older, but she was then queen of all she could see and beyond. i mean, did she change as she got older. >> i think she only changed because of her relationship with abdul, and i think that gave her several more years of being alive. >> rose: wow. simply because here was somebody, as stephen said, who could teach her to write urdu, to speak it, i think she could say things, have a joke. i mean, how wonderful is that when you're, you know, surrounded by people saying yes and no and backing away from you and suddenly to be able to say actually i don't want any of you here, i quite like to go off, and i'd quite like to take him
off to this cottage up in the islands and we'll just have a quiet time there. >> rose: did she see him in a romantic way? >> i think every kind of aspect of everything she saw him. i think every aspect of anything you could feel affection or love as a mother -- i mean, she wrote him five times a day sometimes, and she sometimes -- >> rose: queen victoria wrote him five times a day. >> yes. >> rose: if he was away? no, if he's on the other end of the corridor. >> oh, yes, if he was there. but she would sometimes -- sometimes be mother. it would sometimes be friend. so i think it was every kind of aspect of affection that she felt for him. >> rose: when someone offers you and especially stephen this kind of role, do you just instantly say yes? >> yes. >> rose: it doesn't have to meet any test. >> no. >> rose: the test is met as your friend as a director you've
worked with before. >> he knows tha i'll just do -- untrustworthy. -- did you say untrustworthy? i know he's untrustworthy would employ me and i don't care what the part is. >> rose: what is the dynamic of this relationship? >> i admire her, love her. >> rose: it's easy -- she's a very good actress. there is very little to say. >> rose: there's a lot to say. no! >> rose: she's not just a typical british actress. >> yes, i am. i'm judi dench. i haven't played queens all my life. i played queen of the fairies three times, elizabeth the i, queen victoria and cleopatra in 60 years. then i played a lot of sluts and
people who behave really badly. >> rose: which ones do you prefer? >> those who behave badly, of course. >> they all say, can i do a film and be the bad one. >> rose: they prefer that? they were the fun. >> rose: because you can have more fun with it. >> ashamed to say. yes. oh, yes. because, you know, very often you get constantly you play a part and then somebody will look at that and think, oh, i know this old person of 80 she could play. i don't want to play an old person of 80. i want to play this afghanistan woman who learns to walk the tight rope and turns into a dragon in the last act. few got that part charlie anywhere? >> rose: no but for you i'll have somebody write that story tonight just to see you do it. >> she's got the power and she's mischievous. >> rose: she's got the power and mischievous. >> everything i like. >> rose: will you go back on stage? >> who knows?
>> rose: but you would do it in a moment if the right thing came along. >> yeah. >> rose: so you don't need to work, darling. >> i don't need to work. i do actually need to work. >> rose: you do? for your psyche, income, mental health? pocketbook? >> for my life book. no, certainly not my pocketbook. >> rose: she's rich, too. for my sanity. >> rose: for what? well -- >> rose: for your happiness? no, for my force of life. it's what makes life interesting. >> why give up if you're lucky enough to do a job that you have chosen to do and you can be employed at? why? if i was doing -- >> rose: you're looking at the wrong person. i'm with you. >> well, you understand where you need to be. >> it's convincing.
you don't look at though. >> rose: you had me at birth. i'm all there. all in on this idea. ( laughter ) that the more you do, you know, the better you feel, the better you are. >> isn't life interesting. yes. satisfies your curiosity. >> rose: but is there anything you want to do, any role that you -- no, nothing. you just want to do -- >> do something different or something. just be employed. >> rose: yes. that's all i want. be employed, learning something new, preferably. >> rose: learning something new as you -- you -- >> learning and writing urdu, all those things. >> rose: do you have a desire to travel a lot or already done that. >> you're asking me at the wrong time. we have been in venice and we have been in london and we have been in toronto and here.
so we're all in for a lie down for 24 hours. >> rose: you think about royalty -- i think you once say it's idiotic. >> i think the system is pretty think, you know, for some reason the queen has been rather impressive. you know, she reminded -- when we made the queen, she remeaned us all of our mothers, dutiful, conscientious, all those things working as a motor mechanic, which i think was the happiest moment of our life, so i admire the woman. almost a queest. >> rose: you're a queenist? a queenist. though george vi wasn't too bad. and prince of wales became a good king, stopped the first world war. >> rose: but then gave up the throne. >> no. >> rose: prince of wales? no, the one in the film. the one eddie izzard plays.
>> rose.>> rose:. it was absolutely scandal sitting next to a servant and a hindu to boot. >> the munshi is a muslim scholar an knows the qur'an by heart. for your information he's a servant no longer. he shall be given a staff of his own. >> what do you mean a staff? the little fat one. oh, this is absurd! letters, invitations, you're treating him like a member of the family. >> no, i like abdul. lady churchill better get used to the fact. as a munshi he's coming on holiday with us as a member of the household. >> you can't take a muslim to florence. >> i can take a muslim wherever i like. good night, berty. ( laughter ) >> rose: he just said that should be written on the statue of liberty.
i can take a muslim wherever i like. >> when i read it, i just thought, this is wonderful. >> rose: you must think you would have loved the queen, just queen victia, you would have liked her. she has these -- she knows who she is, she's a bit firm, she's -- >> quite firm. >> rose: quite firm. has a sense of humor or not? >> yeah, i think she did. she must have had a sense of humor. she missed out a bit, i think on her relationship with all her children. >> rose: really? i feel very sorry -- when berty says, i've only just arrived. she says, actually we're going to go away and he's coming with me -- he says, i've only just arrived! poor berty didn't get much change, did he? >> rose: why was that? she was like that with all the children. >> rose: but she had duties of state. >> no, victorian mothers, that's how people were brought up. you saw children 15 minutes in
the morning and evening. >> rose: and that was it, until -- >> until a revolution came, until you americans arrived and the revolution came. it was dreadful. >> rose: are you doing other things coming up, my dear? >> i've done murder on the orian express coming out in november. >> rose: what's your character in that? >> princess dragamiroff. she has arrived in very nice clothes, a lot of jewelry, two dogs and olivia coleman. she's very, very nice indeed to do and a lot of very glamorous actors. >> rose: let's assume there is a blaisplace where you go after you die and let's assume there is somebody and says what have you done to deserve coming here? follow me? what would you say? would you say, have you seen my performance in -- would you say -- >> you are terrible. that's a terrible question.
>> how do you answer that? >> rose: i mean, what would you choose between, among to say this is what i want -- >> i've behaved badly in a great many plays and films. ken brannen said recently he said somebody said something like that to him and he said, well, you know, on a playground there are groups of children, there is always a group of children at one end behaving really badly and he said she's the leader of that. >> rose: now, is this a woman you know behaving really badly at the other end. >> appalling. >> rose: really? thank goodness. >> rose: what's an example of that? >> oh, my mind's gone blank. ( laughter ) you just know it. >> rose: she will as someone once said, she is the straw that stirs the pot. >> yes. yes. no, it's just -- there is suddenly a lot of laughter and you think, oh, god, she's off
again. >> rose: leading the pack. literally at my experience. always at his expense. >> rose: anything that you have not gone that you really wanted to do? or you have no time for looking back at anything? >> i look back very fondly and -- >> rose: at the life you've lived? >> at the team i've had and the good fortune, really good luck, you know, it's not i tell young actors, it's nothing to do with good actors are employed and bad actors are not employed. it's not like that. it's actors who are employed just happen to be lucky because they happen to be in somebody's eye at the time. it's true. it is absolutely true. not being modest. it's absolutely true. and if you just happen to get some kind of a break and you can go on and learn from et and go on and maybe get another job, that's how it is. there's no guarantee with
acting. none at all. and i just -- you know, i just think -- i just think it's good luck, and you meet great people along the way to have a laugh with. >> it's all been a nice -- i first saw you in 1957. >> at the vick. >> rose: at the vick. yes. >> rose: what were you doing? playing ophelia. >> rose: oh, my god. and playing mariah and walking on. >> rose: and when you saw her? i get terrible notices. >> rose: what did you think about that? >> john neville said don't read those. i said, okay. >> rose: well, did you always have confidence that it would somehow turn out okay? >> no. >> rose: no?
no. no, i didn't have any confidence. i give the appearance of it, that's acting. >> rose: you have had this long career. i mean, you have gone from one kind of performance to another, from james bond to queen victoria, i mean from the films that you did in india. you know? you worked with the best directors. >> i have. >> rose: you know? i have. she was always -- am i allowed to say? she was always very good at doing new things. the truth is you started working films really after mrs. brown. when did you get cast at m. in bond? >> i don't know when it was. she suddenly went into something new. olivia, the entertainer of the royal court. something completely new. she had the courage to say, i'll stop doing that, i'll go do this. >> rose: i'll stop doing shakespeare and do entertainer.
>> yes. >> rose: he said once he didn't want to sing and dance on stage. >> he did. >> rose: he did want to. yes. who wouldn't? he used to sit and say that's one i would really like. >> rose: did you know olivier. i knew him. the only time i worked with him is when we joined the e.u. and there was a huge concert at covencovent garden and you had wonderful singers and had everybody, all europe represented in the arts. it was glorious, and sir lawrence and max sabian and i were the links between them all. >> rose: never had a chance to be with him on stage? >> no, that was maggie. >> rose: speaking of her, the friendship between you two is
that a deep and long friendship? >> it is. we were in the vick in 1958, so we've had a long, long time together. it's very nice. >> rose: do you still keep up with each other? >> yes, i had a text from her the other day. i sent her slippers because i know she likes them and it was from a hotel she used to stay at. >> rose: in venice. yes, i sent her the slepters. >> rose: that they leave in the hotel? >> yes, the chippy slippers. very, very good. >> rose: it's always great to have you. >> it's lovely to be here. >> rose: oh, thank you. bring your little pal every time you come, okay? >> it's good, isn't it? don't make jokes about that. ( laughter ) >> rose: "victoria and abdul" opens in theaters friday september 22nd. i think you know by now you do not want to miss it. thank you for joining us. see you next time.
>> mommy, enough is enough. you will drop this munshi business forthwith, do you hear me? did you think the council would have such an insult? >> i will not be disobeyed. have put up with you over 50 years! you will drop this forthwith or -- >> or, or, berty? -- or we will have you certified insane! and removed from office immediately. here are the papers signed by dr. reed. >> rose: for more about this