tv Charlie Rose PBS April 25, 2013 11:00pm-12:01am PDT
>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with the question of the syrian use of chemical weapons and we talk to representative mike rogers, she chairman of the house intelligence committee. >> this, my fear is, charlie, if we let this go and it widens in use, that chaos, the refugee problem, the humanitarian crisis that it causes, the sheer deaths outhere, horrible violent debt of chemical weapons all further destabilizes a region where we have lots of al his and lots of responsibilities, and we can do small, and effective now and prevent big and ugly later and we ought to do that in a way again this is not a military operation, i want to make that very clear, but we do need to step up to the plate when it comes to leadership, both for
the opposition and our arab league partners. >> also this evening a full conversation about online education, something called math open online courses. >> we talk to anant agarwal, amy guttman, tom friedman and joel klein. >> i do think that the blended model is the one that we can say with certainty is revolutionizing higher education now and actually k through 12 as well. i think it is still, we are not online. because it takes an exceptional person to be so motivated and so creative to do something online and get the same thing out of it as wow wld get wth having a master teacher. >> i think what online learning and moocs has done it has put education front and center of the national and international eco, i think people are discussing it and i think
teachers are becoming rock stars and i think education as a field i think is becoming exciting and i think people who pay a lot more attention to it and i think that is really good thing. >> rose: syria and chemical weapons, online education, taking new strides. when we continue. funding for charlie rose was provided by the following.
captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> we begin this evening with the story of syria, and the possible use of chemical weapons. today the ite house announced its belief that the syrian government had used chemicals weapons in a statement to reporters, to chuck hagel said their findings call for a full investigation. >> this morning the white house delivered a letter to several members of congress on the topic of chemical weapons used in syria, the letter, which we made available to you here shortly, soon george gets it, we will give it to you. states that the u.s. intelligence community assesses with some degree of varying
confidence that the syrian regime has used chemicals weapons on a sml scale in syria. specifically the chemical agent sarin. >> as i have said the intelligent community has been assessing information for some time on this issue. and the decision to reach this conclusion was made within the past 24 hours. and i have been in contact with senior officials in washington today and most recently the last couple of hours on this issue. we cannot confirm the origin of these weons,ut weo bieve that any use of chemical weapons in syria would very likely have been originated with the assad regime. >> president obama declared the use of chemicals weapons would constitute a red line for united states action in syria, joining me now from washington, d.c. is congressman mike rogers, he is the chairman of the house intelligence committee and i am pleased to have him back on this program. welcome. >> charlie, thanks for having me.
>> so what do you make of this and what do you think it should -- what action should follow? >> wl, you know, lastugust i think it was august 20th the president said hey if they are moving these chemical weapons and putting them in position to use, if they use them that is a game changer, and think about where we are, charlie, so i said about a month ago i believe that reviewing all of the intelligence over the last two years from multiple sources, that some quantity of chemical weapons has been used, the british have now come out and said they believe it, the french come out and said they believe it, the israelis and now the acknowledgment from the white house which i think is an important step. but this isritical. there isestabilization happening around that region, this will only inflame that in a way that will cause a huge humanitarian crisis and i argue a national security destabilizing crisis in the mideast. this is the red line i do believe the president talked about, and it really can't be a dotted line, this has to be where u.s. leadership steps up
and i am not talking about big military operations charlie i think you know that but bringing our leadership and unique abilities to the table with our arab allies. >> >> rose: do you believwhat has taken because because, because of the intelligence you have seen and your conversations with me about your assessment of that, or are they saying simply well we need to take a look at this further? we need more exclusive proof? >> are they at a different place than you are? >> well i will tell you the intel wrens is not in a different place. now, as a policymaker you can use that to make decisions, i get concerned that they keep changing the standard here, and as reason no do something. and listen, there i is a very senior middle east leader in town who is has expressed great concern over the destabilizing factor of lack of u.s. leadership and again, they really immediate somebody to put around the table that can show
the leadership and has the kind of capabilities that the united states has when it comes to intelligence and intelligence packages and training and leadership for these arab league partners, they are a little fraction naturalizing but have the same goal, that's what we are talking about .. and my fear, arlie, is if let this go and widens in use the chaos, the refugee, refugee problem, the humanitarian crisis it causes, the sheer death by a horrible, violent death of chemical weapons all further destabilizes a region where we have lots of allies and lots of responsibilities and we can do small and effective now and prevent big and ugly later and we ought to do that in a way, again this is not a military operation, i want to make that very clear but we do need to step up to the plate when it comes to leadership, both more the opposition and our arab league partners. >> rose: i know two leaders in the middle east i am not telling you who you meant one is can
king abdullah and qatar and the emir has been to see the president. what is the lack of leadership, whoever said that is asking for that do they want the united states to do? >> and i visit with all of the leaders of that region and their military intelligence leaders and their defense leaders. the frustration level is through the roof when it comes to our arab league partners and turkey and others and pa t problem is, all those folks are equal partners when they sit at the table, they do need that -- you know, that senior leadership of the united states sitting there to work through some of the most delicate issues. so you have other nation states who are participating and arming the rebels to different degrees of efficacy and we need to have a unified effort, we need to make sure the people who are receiving this have good intentions once the assad regime is gone, that's the kind of value the united states brings, and that special capability still that we can make them more
effective in those operaons. thats really what they are looking for. they don't want the 101st airborne division and big naval forces they want the leadership and in those few special capabilities that we can provide to actually bring the regime to a close, and/or, charlie, establish our ability to be able to negotiate a diplomatic solution. right now we don't have the credibility, really from the opposition or the arab league because of our lack of leadership to do that. once we re-establish that and it is easily done, i think we can have a much more important role to bring this t a peacef conclusion and try to stem the chaos that is going to happen after the fall of the regime. >> rose: do you think the president, certainly the president would not agree about the lack of leadership but he might want to have a conversation about what he sees as the dangers of doing, of getting entangled and engaged in ways that might not over the long run be helpful for the
united states. >> absolutely. and those have been well vetted two years into this since we started, and aga,thes are small and effective things. we are not going to own this thing when it is over. very rarely do you have the arab league partners that we have in that region all asking for u.s. leadership, asking for us to be a leading voice at the table. again, they are not asking for big military roles at all, i would oppose and that would be a disaster for us, that's not what we are talking about here, but, you know, outsourcing it to the united nations to do an investigation of which we all know will take a long time is not the answer. they are looking for us to sit at that table, provide the thin that we tked about in a way that is meaningful to the conclusion so that we can empower the arab league partners to take the lead, so when this is over and there is that chaos it is not going to be u.s. forces in there, it is going to be arab league forces in there bringing stability and security to a post assad syria. >> repeating myself but i want
to do so in terms of accuracy. clearly you believe that britain and israel and other countries have -- are convinced that syria has crossed the red line proposed and suggested by president obama? there is no ubt your mind that they believe there is enough evidence of syrian use of chemical weapons to have crossed the red line that the president has spoken to? >> yes. and i want to make sure, on august he said move and put in a position to use and use, i believe that -- that particular set of standards has been met in the use of those chemicals weapons. i believe when you look at all of that, charlie, all of the intelligence over the last two years, i also conclude that some small quantity of chemical weapons has been used. that is basically what britain is saying france is sang, raels sayg, and now you have a bit of an acknowledgment from the white house that is happening, yes, exactly. >> rose: what is leadership? >> well, again, it is bringing a
coordinated effort from our arab league partners and the turks to the table, and that really hasn't happened yet, so they all sit there as a unified -- as equal partners, you need that kind of head of the table to help bring them together, we offer that, we offer in a way no other country can, and they are asking for it, that is what is very different here, and we have the other special capabilities, training, intelligence, vetting. >> rose: right. >> those kind of things to make them much more impactful and nobody trains to the rule of law of war like the united states. those are the kind of people you want trained to go back into syria to do good things and that is a very unique capability that the united states can bring and we ought to employ it. >> rose: but my impression was that was one of the purposes of john kerry's trip to the region. >> well, clearly and obviously it hasn't been successful if that was the goal of this rticar tp and part of the reason is you c't just go and talk about it. again, remember it wasn't that long ago that the opposition
forces didn't even want to meet with the secretary of the united states of america. why? because they felt they had been abandon and they didn't see anything of value that they were doing either with the arab league or others and believe me when the arab league when you meet with them one on one they are not very happy with the united states right now, they think they have been abandoned with this u.s. leadership role. we have to just engage at that level. we can't disengage from the world and hope for the best. if we engage at that leadership level, we can make a tmendous difference in stopping the violence. this isn't about escalating violence, it is about deescalating violence and find a way out of this that doesn't slaughter another 100,000 people and more importantly, charlie and you and i talked about this. those conventional weapons that are all over syria, if that falls in the hands of al qaeda, or hezbollah, the destabilizing faferkt there factor there does impact the safety of the united states, it destabilizing the middle east and southern europe, we really are in a position to
try the stop and d do d that, nt with big military but smart power decisions and leadership at the arab league table. >> rose: the question remains, the president, let's assume the president exercises leadership, he engages the arab neighbors, he engages a range of people to say this red line has been crossed, at some point, the results of this has to be action and what is the action? >> well, there are strong interests on behalf of some arab league partners to take some action. that would be their role to do it if that w the line we deded. we also have a unique capability to make sure if we know that they are using chemicals weapons and put them in a position for use, we have a capability to make it less likely that they would be successful, and i argue we should deploy that as soon as possible in order to make sure that more people aren't slaughtered with chemical weapons and then destabilize with this huge humanitarian refugee crisis that you know would follow the use of any larger scale chemical weapon.
we ought to do those simple things and the actual effort of getting into secure it afterwards when the chaos breaks out and thlead is gone would be led by the arab league but it can't be led by the arab league if there isn't a clear leader at the voice to provide assignments according to capability when assad falls and right now that is a missing part. that's where the united states can be so valuable and it is so important that we have that leadership role and we ought to do it now to prevent a further catastrophe. >> rose: the united states is giving serious consideration to this right now and appreciates the red line has been crossed, and the time to exercise leership is upon them. >> i don't feel comfortable that that is happening right now. i know earlier in the day, there was some discussions about going through the, you know, panoply of options but we have had that discussion for 18 months now. so i don't have any indication today and i don't -- i just wait
for them to tell me it is my job as chairman of the intelligence committee to go find out that there is something brewing there that would lead me to be comfortable in the sense we are going to have this leadership role. including by the way talking to many arab league partners who also don't bliev this is gng toappen any time soon. so -- and i think they are walking their way back a little bit charlie when we say well we have to further investigation, that is just, candidly i don't understand that, that is just code word for me i don't want to make a decision today. this is never an easy decision but it is an important decision, i think he would have bipartisan support to do this, i know he would, we want the president to make is decision, that's why we have been calling on him for some time, we better do the smart small thing now before this thing gets really big and ugly later and we are going to have more difficult decisions to make. >> rose: mike rogers, thank you. >> thank you so much, charlie. >> rose: congressman mike rogers, chairman of the select committee on intelligence for the house of representatives. back in a moment, stay with us.
>> rose: millions of students will take courses taught by the best american universities but many will never step foot inside a classroom, they will study using massive open online courses, moocs, online classes have changed the way people arn, they are part of an ongoing debate abo place of technology in education. joining me now to talk about the future of online education, anant agarwal, he is a ceo of edix 1 of the first online learning platforms, amy guttman, joel klein and ceo of amplify and tom friedman of "the new york times", i am pleased to have all of them here, because tom and i have talked about this, i will begin with him. is this at long last an idea whose time has come? >> definitely, charlie. you know, i think all of the forces of connectivity have reached a point where we can now really
not only dream about but actually deliver the best teaching from the best teachers from a whole range of universities to people all over the world at a speed, scope, scale and price that was simply, you know, impossible just a decade ago. a couple little things they have to still overcome, not little but i think they are imminently overcomable, one is the security issue, did that person take the course, take the tst, et cera d i think they will overcome that and the second is certification, did you not just take the course but did you learn something and can we certify you learned something? and i think everyone here will give you, you know, much more than i can about how they are overcoming those problems and when they do, i think this goes to scale. >> rose: sounds like a business to me. >> it is much more than a business. i think even more than overcoming problems, i look at the opportunity. i think that there are things we can do with online learning technologies that can dramatically improve the quality of education, so for example,. >> rose: the learning
experience will be better. >> will be much better, a regular classroom as an instructor, i know very little about how my student are learning, i like to view what you are doing with online learning, i call that particle accelerator for learning where we can use the data and get these analytics and research as to how students are learning. and overtime, provide them with much more of a personalized learning experience overtime, the real exciting part is the opportunity much more than the immediate problems which an engineer can solve. >> what are you doing? >> we are 12 kindergarten, 12 to twelfth grade and wereoing a combination, what anant says is twakt exactly right we are taking data for the first time and really to inform instruction, personalize it so kids can get what they need, not just get the common approach. first of all we have now a tablet that is being used in schools. it is a learning platform. it is not about the tablet, it is a way the teacher can control the classroom, orchestrate the lessons get the content to the
kids and the third thing, chlie is building a curriculum i think will change the world and i think what an that said is very powerful here which is, we need to use this dramatically improve the teaching and learning experience in our classrooms, teachers are embracing it and excited about it, and the kids are responding to it very, very positively, one of the kids we interviewed said you know, education i is is goig to have a, it factor education has a factor of fun gets us more engaged and excited and we can do all of these things and the great thing is, we are in the earliest innings of a game that is just beginning but the potential is absolutely enormous. >> rose: are you ready for this, president guttman? >> we aroff d running and excited about it. a couple of things. to what joel said, really, it is really important, it is not what we teach, it is what really counts is what our students learn, and there is no doubt that the learning experience of
combining online education with interaction with your students is better for ther on campus experience and at the same time what we are ready for in our mission is going to be more fulfilled is the amplification of access. access to some of our courses is going to expand -- is expanding exponentially, i will give you an example, rob greiss teaches single variance calculus, not a sexy course you think, 50,000 students from 60 countries signed up for it, and he is flipping his classroom, a pen and his student love it because what he can do online, he says just makes the blackboard look dull. >> so are you ready to give degrees? >> we give degrees right now, charlie. and it is not a substitute for the campus based experience but rob greiss's course has been certified by the american council of education, and there will be places that give credit
for it, and we are, ourselves may give credit, you know, bc calculus, advanced placement credit for it and that is just the beginning. the beginning in just this past year, just penn, half a million students have signed up for our courses, and it just has huge potential. >> rose: just a moment to look at history. why has it been slow come something. >> technology had to reach a point, charlie, where you could simply get the pipes to a speed, of scope and scale basically where someone in india, in egypt, in africa would have the bandwidth, regular electricity and the cheap enough computer or tablet in order to participate, and what happened over the last decade is we got that amount of enter connectivity, that was a huge revolution, great inflection and disguised by the sub ime crisis in 2,000 -- so
what are the problems here? >> so we should be damage totally clear about this, right now there isn't a business model for what we are doing. we are doing it because we are mission driven. we believe, as thomas said this very eloquently and forcefully if we don't do it we are going to be dinosaurs and our faculty, are really -- they really love it and they want to do better, but thereisn't a business model right now. right now we are funding this with expectation that given the demand there will be, we will be able to have a sustainability. we don't want to make money, we want to have it sustainable, so we can drive the costs down. >> i want a mooc, a chair in mooc learning or is that something that could happen in the future? >> i think that is something that will happen in the very near future. (laughter.) >> that is certainly on my
priority list. >> as we speak exploring a number of business models, and i think our challenge is going to be not what is the business model, but which of many exciting business models to pick from. i will give you one example. so edix we license our courses to university and use a blended model on their campus that is one example, license the course to san jose state university in california in the fall of last year to very good success, early results but much success. so much the entirecal state system have decided to adopt edx campuses on 11 campuses this fall of the cal state universities will use a blended model on their campuses and the schools overtime will pay a license fee for these courses so you can think of online courses as being, think of it as the new textbook, i mean it is not exactly, much more than a
textbook but think of it as a new textbook. in the past people are completely acceptable usinthe top friedman course ok, now i think professors will use courses from other places and the professor will be up leveled from spouting content from the stage with the back turned to the class from a blackboard, but rather, work with students, teach them ethics and how to learn, but teach students how to process information, so we go from spouting content to processing information, and i think this will be a win-win for teachers and the students. >> i'm sorry. >> a really critical point. people who figure, will figure out a business model, i have no doubt of that. the real question is will you improve the learning experience. >> exactly. >> and if we do that we will have done something very exciting and powerful, and the potential is there and you are beginning to see it, but simply to put courses online doesn't make it a better course and better learning experience, and what we have got to do and we are starting to see now and people are starting to write
about how do you change the learning experience? we can change the business model, and that is what is going to happen. >> and it has got to be, if it is going to be successful, and i believe it is going to be wildly successful, very different from a textbook, because textbooks didn't replace or didn't even transform, come close to it, they are not interactive, so if you are a math whiz you can learn calculus from a calculus text, very few people that is not increasing access to what these online course accounts do and the reason that this is the real wave that can make a difference is they have interactive capacity,s they have feedback loops on them, again, not a substitute for all of the other things you get on a campus based experience, but, boy, there are millions of young people who cannot have a campus based experience, and so they can have a campus based
experience at the same time it will increase access, and let me just give you one example. we all know about there are kids in swaziland who are now online, but there are also autistic college age students who learn at penn now through our online courses in american poetry and greek and roman mythology because they can learn better online than they can in the classroom. >> rose: tom, you wanted to say something? >> i know it is be being a little shy, because these example you gave at san jose, i wrote about it, is the basic circuits and electronic course mit teaches and what they did is with a control group, they thought the class the traditional way and traditional professor and the other with basically put the lectures online, mit lectures, and kids could, you know, watch whatever they wanted, then when they came to class the entire experience is working with therofessor and goeryvery good results as far as the timing of all of
this where we are at, alta i sta, that was the search engine before google, we are at the alta vista, right now, google hadn't been invented yet and, you know, to amy's point. >> rose: google -- >> it might be, i had the pleasure because joel shared with my wife anne is a teacher and myself his tablet. >> right. >> it is like nothing -- >> it is just -- >> it will knock your socks off. >> not paying attention and your eyes rove. >> one click, eyes on teacher, it will knock your socks off, it is something you have never seen before. >> rose: so who can do it? who can qualify and do i have to qualify to take your courses from mit or harvard or berkeley or ut austin? >> i think that is the beauty of it. and i think you hit the mail on the head. if you look at the existing education system, it is such for people who already have something, so, for example, if you have admissions to
universities, you know, places like harvard admit under ten percent of their stent body, most universities have a very small fraction of the students that apply and those who apply tend to have good background, and they are from generally from appeals that can afford to send them to sat prep school and gone to good schools where they had a chance to shine in poletics and a number of thgs so a small fraction of students can get into good schools. with what we do with online learning and moocs at places at edx and others i call it flipping the funnel, instead of having an entrance test and allowing students into a small entryway is opening up the funnel, anybody with an internet connection and the will to learn, anywhere in the world, geography is no bar, income is no bar, you can come in and take a course, it is the ultimate democratizer of education. and if you can cut it you will even
get a certificate, i think it is the ultimate democratizer. >> think of this in terms of a place like africa what it can do for the continent. >> well, you know, chaie, ma'am we have the aid, that gives foreign aid basically for human development around the world, 1 $14 billion a year, it takes more than people realize. imagine what aid do in a country line egypt, in a moocs world, they could rent a room in afut, upper egypt, put in 50 computer terminals, rent -- we will pay for high speed satellite internet up link, hire and english arabic speaking teacher to be a coach and an aide to students, and invite anyone who wants to come the best courses at penn or mit. and suddenly, for pennies on the dollar, we would be able to leverage, give these young
people what so many young people around the world who have been either in revolution in the middle east or not in their countries really want. the potential, the ability to realize their full potential. >> rose: exactly right. you can unlock the future. >> it can unlock the future. so i am, for th reasonable, i am very excit about it. >> i think education is a basic human right and can solve, not only economic problems and provide opportunities for people, but i think, i think it can promote world peace and also really good opportunity for even in healthcare, on our discussion forum, when i was teaching the circuits course which had thousands of students from 162 countries taking the course on the discussion forum i saw a student from pakistan, a student from egypt, columbia, u.s., new zealand having a discussion together on the rum helping eachthernd lvin each other's problems, imagine what the world is going to be like ten or 20 years ago, years from now where they helped each other right from the get-go. >> correct me if i am wrong
155,000 students is more all of the mit alum my in the history of mit. >> i mean, you can get the greatest, take the ten best professors in the world, you know, take what michael san dell does on justice, if you have sat in on his class, it is a life changing experience, every kid in the world can have access to michael sandell, it is so powerful. >> >> rose: so what are you doing at amplify? >> now we are working with the k to 12. the different between, i must say the university challenge is important, but it is so much harder in the k to 12, because you can't just give a kid a lecture card obviously, you need content. we have done gains now and we know that the kids who play the games that are aligned with the curriculum, a game on science, puts you literally inside the cell, fighting off viruses and these kids we see learn a lot
better. and the visuals. >> it is fun. >> most of us went on in education because it was fun. >> because it was fun and the vicious. and we did this thing, we tested this with kids, kids who were having trouble complex books, they now have the common course standards in america one of the things is important we have to get our kids to really read difficult texts it is a big part of education, it is not easy, kids get bored and tuned out what we found is we have great actors to read the first chapter with them. and they do it visually and they get so excited, th guy has starred in 42, the jackie robinson thing did the first chapter of frederick douglas and we watched kids respond and it is like you light up my life kind of experience and they want to read the the second and third chapter. >> rose: you have had part of your life experience having to deal with teachers, what does all of this mean for teachel3÷ and public schools today? >> teachers have embraced this and if they don't embrace it it won't work, the teachers are an essential part of this, what the teachers love about it it freeze
them to focus on the things they wantnd it isonstarter and givethem iormation and data, remember, i know how hard the kids are working on the tablet and i know which lessons work for a kid, engaged him and how much time she is spending and teachers get all of this information in simple reports they can then use to focus the classroom, to ask the tough questions, so the whole thing, this is not one where it is going to be a we, they, fight, this is one where it is going to be i think a win-win for teaching and for kids, those are the solutions we need in k to 12. >> you need teachers to fill in the motivation factor, i me, you can -- most kids and most adults are motivated not only by the technology, what is available on the technology, however great it is, but seeing the passion, and the inspiration, and the expertise of a teacher who can answer questions and -- >> and that is the next question. there is always one more question that a great teacher
can ask to push to further no matter how many you build in the great teacher said, you know, now think about this. i mean, that is what teaching does. always say the most important thing whena d leaves the courtroom, is he thinking about the classroom or his date for friday night and wow want him to be thinking about -- >> give an example of an instructor from san jose state, he is a professor of san jose state where they use the edx course on campus and he said i am going to lecture and i am going to lecture, what am i going to do with the teacher and if you talk to him today he says his life is transformed because now he gets a chance to work one on one with his students, ask them questions, and then help them how to learn as opposed to standing in front of them and lecturing to them he is really sold on it. >> aked is a good story because we have to acknowledge, there are skeptics out there and i like to give the example of the
skeptic who said, you know, this new invention is to be mistrusted. because it gives the impression of wisdom rather than wisdom itself. and that was so crates about what was socrates what was he talking about, it was a new writing, rather than memorization, so he really thought if you don't memorize, you don't learn, and we found out you can learn from writing and a textbook came and the textbooks were going to put us out of business. and it takes an embracing of the new and i have to credit our faculty for doing that. >> what is the next step? >> well there are two things that i think, there is a certain sociology around this, charlie i think we need to keep in mind and ben it is the same world that deliveredou th platformthis aowing moocs is, i think, doing two other things. one, you know, i like to say it
is a 401-k, i will mix sot metaphors here, it is a 401-k world where everyone has to take the bar. what do i mean from that? we have gone from a world of defined benefits to defined contributions so it is, what is great about this platform they have described, it really works in some ways, but it requires a little more self motivation, i have to go to joe's tablet and take a course, i have to -- you know, do a test. it is not quite -- it is just the -- the meter moved just slightly and like in the wider economy we learned from a defined benefit, we are going to learn from a defined benefit world to a defined contribution world, and not everyone is up for that defined contribution, not every student soy think we have to think about how we coach, enable, empower, those students .. where self motivation doesn't come so easily, at the same time, what is going on, walter russell mead has a nice way of saying it, we are going from time served to se learner.
>> so the business world doesn't want just to know your degree, they want to know that you really know it. they want to say, everyone is going to have to pass the bar now, no matter what you do, you can graduate from penn, you can graduate from brandeis or mit, in the old days, okay we will train you and you got your ba that was a signal and now nobody has time to train in a global economy, no one has the money to train everybody, so the workplace is increase my demanding to know that your degree translates into real skills, so everyone -- >> it is good. >> i don't you have to pass the bar whatever you do and i think that is the big trend here that is also, i think moocs' role serves that but i think it is going to be a more demanding world. >> all although i think you would free, tom, that passing the bar isn't what defines the best legal counsel. >> sure. >> >> great job. >> so the element of creativity and innovation that this is not sufficient for, but certainly
gives a necessary base of, a knowledge base for, and then you can spdyour time as a student really becoming creative. >> that is the upside. that is the upside. >> rose: you also learn arizona at your own pace so if you want to accelerate you can accelerate? >> absolutely or if you want to slow things down. when i was in college, usually, i wasn't as smart as the other kids around me and around the five minutes mark i would stop following the teacher and then i would just sit there scribbling notes, trying to catch every word the teacher said and hopefully catch up on it later, so i think for some it will slow down and others speed it up i think learning at your own pace is a really key part of it. >> i want to highlight a point because it is really important. people now are not asking do you have a degree? they want to know the bank of knowledge and talent and amy is right, creativity is part, chancellor with ibm, created a school nine to 14, in other words, took a traditional high school,
traditional tw two-year communiy college, put them together at the end of which you had to be literally certificated by ibm and they look at creativity you pass that test you to t top of their list as placement of a ibm technologist so that kind of model, skill based model is going to replace a degree based model overtime. so it is not going to happen quickly. tom's point, the other point he makes which people who are watching should understand, we are at the alta vista point, this is so early in the game and five years from now it is going to look entirely different. >> yes. >> >> rose: two things, one, aren't there some numbers i have seen which a lot of people drop out? >> so i think this relates to a point tom made earlier, ich is, you know, in my mind the single biggest challenge we face is that of motivation, and commitment. which is students will sign up, when you are in school the teacher holds your hand and guides you through and asks have
you done your homework? then kids go to college and in college, they leave you alone and some oversight but not a whole lot, you have to be motivated, online learning takes it to the next level, and requires a level of motivation and, you know, which is much beyond what is required today. today in a classroom you sit there, for better or worse and you just swallow information. here you have to go and pace yourself, wrote have you to go and submit homework and you have to note hate yourself and i see that as one of the bigger challenges and i think even though we have in some courses, the course is very vigorous, as we grow the campus course you may see a five percent pass rate, but all of all the courses you may see higher pass rats, at but what we are finding in the blended model where the course is offered on a campus where the professor augments it the results are potentially much better, in the san jose experience for example in our pilot study in the experimental course, the results went from
traditional 59 percent of people passing the course to 91 percent of people passing the course. so these are preliminary results but i think as we learn more about the whole blended model i think people will understand how best to motivate students in a much better manner. >> rose: what can be said about the difference in cultural learning experiences from country to country to country? >> i think there are huge differences and i think we are gather ago lot of data and we know where the students are from so we can actually study what the differences are, so for example, we have data on the -- right now and the paper is being published by my colleagues at various universities on where students are spending their time, they know how much time they are on the textbook and when they do an exam are they looking at the textbook or watching videos, when they do homework we know whether they are watching textbooks or watching videos, we know exactly what resources they are using and i think we can study from a gentleman photograph cal standpoint how different cultures .. use different media in order to learn and think by learninghat we could
potentially in the ture customize the learning experience based on cultures. some cultures prefer to watch videos. some cultures read textbooks. >> of course, sarah's courses 60 percent of the enrollees are nonamerican, and i think from every country it is -- there is now course -- there are now courses being done in russian, as well as english, but the great thing about online is that there is usually people on those courses who will translate for other people. i do think that the blended model is the one that we can say with certainty is revolutionizing higher education now, and actually k through 12 as well. i think it is still -- we are not in the google phase of the purely online, because it takes an exceptional person to be so
motivated and so creative to do something online and get the same thing out of it as you would get with havg masr teacher. >> what you just said, it is very interesting in a lot of these courses like sarah, students do their own translation and put up their own sub titles for other students for free. >> i mean, we take it for granted but that is -- >> they are helping each other, it is just amazing. >> and the k to 12 space, it is really important, it is essentially a blended model. of course i think parents would be legitimately concerned if you said we are going to put all of the kids on a computer, excuse me, and leave them tre. instead, these are things that arhapping right in the classroom, what the with the teacher's ability to click and say now we are going to move toward a discussion of this, and offer the tablet and so forth and it is that capacity and the ability to enrich it, plus extended days, we had kids who are homesick and now they can go right into the classroom and so they -- >> absolutely.
>> rose: and is it always-- going to be free? >> i think the free is not the key issue here. i think at the end of the day there has to be a sustainable model for students and ihink the key question is that, we need to focus on, are we providing value? and if you provide value to students and they are getting a lot more than they are today, that is a good thing of and we would like to make our courses free or maybe in the future the cost of a certificate per capita so there is a small amount of money that may come in but at the end of the day i think, you know, if you want to increase access that we have to keep the courses free or very -- >> they are not free, somebody is paying for these courses. and the question is, what is the sustainable model? >> rose: exactly. >> and i think it is not just one, i think there will be many ways of making sustainable models here, one of the great things, joel about that we are learning about online courses we are learning more about human psychology too, so most of the
courses on kocer a&e dx are not for credit and thousands of people take them and for the joy of learning and we find on the quizes and we find out they cheat, even though they are not getting graded and they are not doing it for cred. >> they want to -- i mean, there is some percentage of people who can't help but want to do better than they are actually doing. >> rose: convince themselves -- >> what we do is we are getting great data which will make a difference in how we go forward in learning -- >> rose: this is one more example of what the internet has achieved which is personalization. >> yes. >> rose: give you control. >> personalization, scale, a whole level of quality, that you wouldn't normally have, and that is what -- so what is so exciting, i think what this is going to do for higher ed and amy and i talk about this, it is
going to bring pedagogy back into the discussion, that is, you need to actually get a certificate to teach kindergartners in this country and second grade but not to teach physics, i believe at mit, so how good of a teacher you are doesn't really matter, you can get up there and i have tenure at mit you are going to listen if you like it or not, somebody lucky like the math teacher amy talked about, some days you got castor oil but now every ofessor th is competition. how many are in your mooc? >> rose: professor shopping. >> yes. >> yes. and when i first joined mit teaching is a big part of our business, one day, go show up at 11:00 o'clock and you lecture and i go there and students are sitting in front of me and i am like a deer in the headlights, i never lectured or taught before and this is what you do today, and i think what online learning and moocs has really done is i think it has put education front and center of the national and international ec i think
people are discussing it, i think teachers becoming rock stars and i think education as a field i think is becoming exciting and i think people will pay a lot more attention to it and i think that is a really good thing. >> what about the idea of accepting courses from other universities and to -- for a degree -- >> we already do. we accept transfer students from other universities, we have advanced placement credits that students get, so why not? it will take time, we don't know exactly how that model will work. but i think it is a ral plus that faculty can see what else is going on in teaching advanced along gras and algebra and it is competition because you can take rob greiss's course and teach it as a course at a camp and really supplement it by personalizing instruction for your students, and it fits in the hunger we are
talking about teaching. >> how many college professors did what joel has had to go in the new york school system which is show a great teacher showing fractions to first graders and other teachers, how often did that happen with college physics? i doubt it happened often. >> economics, it may have been threatening the way textbooks are threatening at the beginning but many use it themselves, expert teachers but these online courses are, i think, going to travel, because there is no cost in them traveling. so there are marginal costs. >> rose: with respect to the teaching important, does this meaning thathat y teach and how you teach will be as important as how much you publish? >> well, you know, on a friday afternoon, a sun my friday afternoon this spring, we had a conference that tom was so kind to speak at, and martha cantor from the department of education was there, and other, daphne of
kocera and rick kurland of the university of maryland, there were 450 people from all around the world that came to talk about teaching and even more, even a greater number of penn faculty and students were there. i can't think of another time where the topic was teaching that so many people came together to talk about something that so excited, that is so exciting to them as well as to us as educators. and we don't know -- i call it a bold experiment because we really don't know how the experiment is going to work out, but it is going to work. manager is already working, so it is not a question of if, it is a question of what. rose: there is also this. iean this is something that i think, actually believe in myself, there is much to be learned not just from a lecture but also from being able to eavesdrop on conversation, you know, so the idea of a gifted teacher being in the hands of a
gifted conversationalist, you know, it can billions a place where stuff you learn becomes crucial. >> go ahead. >> absolutely. i think, you know, it may be an obvious question we should be teaching how to teach, and to put our money where our mouth isyou ow, edx we create add course called edx 101 which is an on heine course on how to teach. online and as part of that, sal con my old student from mit contribute add video to it which is a kahn style video, tablet console video on how to create a video so i think we need to create courses on how to to, how to teach and in many parts of the world, in india for example, one foundation is focused on teaching teachers how to teach and teaching,ringg t -- and it is not just for high schoolers or k through 12. i think it is important for
college level education. so on our platform we have online virtual laboratories where students go from the angle they can build-up experiments like leg goes and having a lot of fun .. >> i think it is important that these online courses are not just the science and engineering .. and computer science, so -- american poetry has 34,000 people signed up for it, and greek and roman mythology, 54,000. and these are star teachers, peter struck, al reiss, there are star teach in other words the classroom and also star teachers online, it actually does translate. >> the focus on making teaching a better experience in the classroom will happen at multiple levels. the first thing that will happen, as you said before which is true a lot of people are dropping out but we learn pretty quickly what they drop out of more quickly and what they stick to and why, what is it this person is doing which is keeping kids engaged and taking them to the new level and this is going to open up an
opportunity, because i always thought in the universities that i went to, the teaching was uneven, some of it was really terrific and -- >> rose: popular courses and nonpopular courses. >> this is going to put a focus on it. >> rose: one last question by you and amplify, do you spec to move beyond k through 12? >> that's a question we are looking at, charlie, right now we are so focused on k to 12 because it is such a huge challenge and all of the issues have really, connectivity in the schools, partnering, chain management for teachers, so that's our front and center but there are a lot of other things we are looking at. >> there is so much work to be done in k through 12. >> exactly. a. it is so important.nd the bee more advantageous it is to the student who would otherwise drop out. >> absolutely. >> excellent teaching is a hugely powerful -- >> that is part of the discussion. places like penn, really, we need to get more and more kids who come from challenge and disadvantaged families going to the great colleges, and that is something that is a serious
challenge. >> what does this mean for a place like china where one of their national goals to build between now and 25th two great universities? >> 2050 in? >> for china as much as for brazil, as much for us, it is just going to give that many opportunities to see best practices at a totally different cost structure. and there is going to be a language issue as well, but, you know, your question really reminds me, charlie, i studied arabic and middle east, and i am a correspondent, why am i here? i am here because i read about foreign power and power, where does power come from? power comes from innovation, strong economy, growing workplace, where does that come from? education. that's how i got here. i got here working backwards, they got here working far wards, we met at the same place, so i have always said i wish i had studied education in college and not arabic, middle east history, because traveling around the
world i see, everywhere i go it is the biggest foreign policy issue, it is china, brazil, the middle east, it is really the number one issue, and what is really interesting, everybody his they are bin, you go to singapore and they are killing us on the math tests but they think their kids can't invent the hula-hoop and you go to, you know, japan and they are all worried, china, they think they have got this part of it but not that part of it, you come here, you know, johnny and suze can't read but billy has a ring in her nose and a tattoo and they just invented three new ipad apps. aall have to work on it. >> rose: thank you all. thank you very much. great to have you. thank you for joining us. see you next time.