tv This Week With George Stephanopoulos ABC January 17, 2016 10:00am-11:00am PST
sprint to the finish. just two weeks before the voting starts, and we're face to face with donald trump, hillary clinton and bernie sanders. as the gop race tightens, can the billionaire seal the deal and what he's saying now about his battle with ted cruz. >> he's a nasty guy, nobody likes him. >> we're on the trail in new hampshire with donald trump. plus, hillary feeling the heat. >> the clinton campaign is getting very, very nervous. >> could this underdog shock the political world in an upset for the ages? hillary clinton and bernie sanders are both here, live. plus, insights and analysis from the powerhouse roundtable. it's all only on "this week." from abc news. it's "your voice, your vote." here now chief anchor george stephanopoulos. it is on. just two weeks before the first votes,
history. the clashes continued this weekend. after cruz attacked trump's new york valls. donald seemed to score with a powerful defense of his hometown. but now, cruz countering with this video. >> i'm very pro-choice. i hate the concept of abortion. i hate it. still, i just believe in choice and again, it may be a little bit of a new york background because there is some different attitude in different parts of the country. and i was raised in new york and grew up and work and everything else in new york city. >> and here was cruz in south carolina. >> i recognize that what donald trump says on the campaign trail today is fairly conservative. but voters are far more discerning. they've learned over and over politicians don't tell us the truth.
when i met up with him in new hampshire on saturday. we began with the news breaking, the release of those american prisoners from iran. so, we have some news, four american hostages including jason rezaian released by iran. happen, you blamed obama, ready to give him credit? >> absolutely not. i never said it was never going to happen. i said if i got in, it would happen immediately. we give seven we get four. i have to see what the deal is. this should have happened years ago, we're giving them $150 billion, this shouldn't be happening now and i understand that in addition to the $150 billion they're getting hostages also, or they're getting prisoners released. we're taping this a little bit early and it's not sunday morning like your viewers probably think. so, have to see what the deal is. this should have happened years ago. >> let's talk about the race, it's now a two-person race between you and ted cruz. >> no, i don't think so. i don't think ted cruz has a
>> he's doubled-down on this issue of new york city values. he lumped you in yesterday with hillary clinton, andrew cuomo and bill de blasio. and he said he apologized to the millions of new yorkers let down by liberal politics. >> the truth is, he's a nasty guy. nobody likes him. nobody in congress likes him. nobody likes him anywhere, once they get to know him. he's a very -- he's got a edge that's not good. you can't make deals with people like that, and it's not a good thing for the country. very nasty guy. >> he's also circulating that clip of you on tim russert. in 1999. where you said i lived in new york city all my life, okay, so my views are a little bit different than if i lived in iowa. those were your words. >> a long time ago, and he's taking money from people that are very much into the whole gay marriage situation and he's taking money from them and he's
he got caught the other day on a tape where he was raising funds at a law office, talking about things and priorities -- >> are you saying he's a hypocrite? >> he's a total hypocrite. how about his fund-raising and his personal financial disclosure form? he doesn't put on it that he's borrowing money from goldman sachs. today, it comes out he's borrowing money from citibank and he doesn't list it. he wants to look like he's the one protecting the ones from the banks. and he's not disclosing it which is illegal. >> how about you? those were your words. talking about how you were strongly pro-choice, and your comparison of new york values and iowa views and it's led a lot of conservatives to think, boy, maybe he's going to switch >> it doesn't matter what thinks. it doesn't matter. they understand me. they understand trade. we're talking about labels. i consider myself to be -- right now somebody -- so you're
>> i'm conservative. but when it comes to different elements of what i believe in, i'm going to solve our trade problem, i'm going to solve our military problem, i'm going to get rid of isis, i'm going to create boarders. >> but they're afraid you're going to abandon conservative issues. >> i don't think too many people are afraid of that. because, if you look at the polls, i'm leading ted cruz by a lot. even lied about that. the polls are showing that i'm on the upswing, he's on a big downswing. but if you look at what he said and the way he said it and the scorn toward new york, i think it's a disgrace. in light of the world trade center and in light of all the people that died, think about the firemen, the firemen that went up those buildings and they were killed instanteously and they knew those buildings were coming down and they're going up to save lives. speaking of iowa, which i love, and i'm leading in the polls in iowa, we had firemen from iowa which was so beautiful and many
trade center to help. you had people from iowa and particular the fire department coming all the way from iowa to help with the world trade center and here's ted cruz putting down that and the great, you know -- >> he didn't put that down. >> no, he's putting down the great people of new york. you've been there. very few people could have done what new yorkers did under that unbelievable circumstance. >> let's talk about some of the judges would you appoint, will they be conservative? what does that mean to you? >> well, first of all, we have a appointed. we have a lot of openings in i'm very happy about that to be honest. i think appointing judges is a very important element of what -- >> ted cruz said he's going to appoint conservatives with a paper trail. with are you going to do?
with great reputations, that are great with the legal profession. >> like? >> you know, a judge who's totally underrated about not spoken is justice thomas, i mean, if you look at some of the judges that we have on the supreme court, justice roberts turned out to be a nightmare for conservatives. >> what is your criteria -- >> by the way, ted cruz was the one who really wanted justice roberts to go on the supreme court. you know that? have you heard that? he was pushing him hard. justice roberts gave us obama care. obamacare would have been terminated twice if it wasn't for justice roberts. first time 10 on%. justice roberts could have killed obamacare and should have based on everything. ted cruz is the one that was promoting him. ted cruz and also jeb bush, but justice roberts was the man that gave us and remember it. he gave us obamacare.
>> lot of conservatives skeptical of you, saying you support taking private property away giving it to real estate developers. >> let me tell you about that decision, eminent domain, without that, you wouldn't have roads or highways, you wouldn't have schools, you wouldn't have hospitals. you wouldn't have anything. you have to use that. the pipeline, the keystone pipeline they have pages devoted to eminent domain. every conservative. and i'm a conservative. every conservative wants the keystone pipeline. it can't be built without eminent domain, you wouldn't have 25 feet of the keystone pipeline. eminent domain you need eminent domain. i'm not in love with it. but you need it. you wouldn't have roads or anything. so, when people criticize me on
what it is, lot of people don't know what it is, but without that power you wouldn't have the kind of things that you need to survive as a society and as a country. >> so, how are you going to make sure that you're not going to get a justice roberts? >> excuse me, excuse me, how are they going to make sure? bush appointed him and cruz was the biggest advocate. cruz fought like hell to get justice roberts in there. justice roberts turned out to be an absolute disaster. he turned out to be an absolute disaster because he gave us obamacare. you tell me, ask cruz why did he push -- >> i'm asking you. >> i'm asking you, why did he push so hard to have a judge who has absolutely set the conservative movement back and set everything else -- >> when i interview him i'll ask him. how are you going to make sure you're not going to get betrayed by your appointees? >> i will study it carefully. i will work with people i respect, conservative people, we'll appoint judges that will be good.
justice roberts. >> let's talk about immigration. senator cruz has come out against your deportation force. he said i'm not going to take boots to knock on every door in america. governor christie said this would cause an increase a 50% in the arrest rate. your response? >> senator cruz is very weak on illegal immigration, he only got strong over the last little while. the other day, i heard him say he wants to build a wall. where has that been? all of a sudden he wants to build a wall. we're going to create and have a country again. that's what we want. we want to have borders, to have a country you have to have borders. we don't have borders right now. we have people flowing over freely. >> are you going to enforce it? >> having babies on our land that we take care of, called anchor babies, you need a
don't. you probably need just a vote of congress and you might not even need that. i said that from the beginning. the real legal scholars that say as an example that cruz has a real problem with his place of birth. and there are many people who are saying that right now. in fact, since i spoke to you the last time, he's been sued. >> the person who doesn't have standing -- >> a lot of people who have standing. >> you have standing, why don't you file a suit? >> that sounds like a very big case. ted was so nice to me, i said he's not a nice guy, he wanted to goe, so nice, so nice. when is it going to happen? it happened during the debate, because he lied about the polls. because i was going up. the poll came out with a headline, "trump way up, him way down." he lied about that.
>> so -- >> listen, let me just say, i don't think he's going to do very well. >> put your money where your mouth is. if you really believe in this, you should file the suit. >> i'd like to talk to ted about that. when i file suits i file real suits. >> you're really unloading on him today. >> i'm unloading because he's been very dishonest. he didn't put down the banks but yet he criticizes the banks and he's going to be robinhood and take care of the banks. he didn't the public to see he borrowed money from goldman sachs. he doesn't want the public to see that, the reason is, because he wants the public to think that he's this wonderful guy protecting him from the bad, vicious bankers. well, he borrows money from the banks and he got personal guarantees and why that's not done in his personal financial, he said, he made a paper
oh, really. he made the mistake with goldman sachs. but he also made the mistake with citi bank. i have a hundred pages, almost a hundred pages talking about billions and billions of dollars, i didn't make a mistake and they have been gone through by everybody, i didn't make a mistake. couple of pages with a couple of loans and he forgets the main banks, two banks he got, and he can't put that down? that wasn't a mistake. >> let's talk about national security, rubio versus cruz on national security. rubio says this usa freedom act could have been written by lobbyists for isis. cruz says it's the best way to both protect national security and private privacy. who's right? >> i come down on security. we have a whole thing going on whether or not we want to protect our freedoms. to me security is freedom. i'm on the side of security.
if somebody is listening to my calls, i'm not going to like it. when it comes to me personally, i would rather have that, i want security. >> you're saying rubio's right? >> i would go with the rubio side on that. >> it sounds like you're worried about cruz. >> i come down on anybody that doesn't tell the truth. he didn't tell the truth during the debate. he didn't tell the truth about new york city. i mean, new york city is a -- very few places on earth could have done and suffered the way they suffered. remember this, george, that was the greatest attack in the history of our country. greater than pearl harbor, because pearl harbor they attacked the military. here, they attacked civilians and these two massive buildings came down on top of the rest of the city. thousands of people killed and the day, an hour later, we started the process. great people started the process. people coming in, firemen coming in from queens knowing they may
up those buildings. they all died. we have this guy, who falsifies his personal financial forms, we have this guy criticizing -- >> it caught the attention of mike bloomberg. you and hillary in it, sources say, it would show a competitive race. does that worry you? >> i would love to have michael join the race. first of all, he's a great friend of mine. i'd love to, because he would be, i think, take a lot of votes away from hillary, it's going to be hillary. you tell me. she's like your best friend. >> she went to your wedding. >> she had to, though, you know why, because i contribute. she probably went to your wedding, too. >> she didn't go to your wedding. >> so, here's the story, i would say if michael came in, he would take a lot of votes away from hillary. you know why, one of the reasons, guns.
i'm very pro-second amendment. >> you'd welcome him in the race? >> i'd love to have him in the race. very late for anyone to join the race right now. i know the filing requirements and for anybody to come in right now is very late. >> in "the boston globe" yesterday, a woman named rebecca o'donnell has a 9-year-old son, paying attention to the son, he's adopted internationally, he asked her if he and his brother would be taken away from us if donald trump became president. she went on to write this in "the globe." my son feels that trump is speaking hate against him because his skin is brown and he's afraid. trump claims that he will strike fear into hearts of our enemies instead he strikes fear into the hearts of our children. what do you say to rebecca? >> why don't you pick out a positive letter, we're getting so many positive letters. people want to take back their country. that young man will be fine, okay, but people want to take back their country.
we don't have a country right now. we have people pouring in, they're pouring in and they're doing tremendous damage, if you look at the crime and the economy. the real number in terms of unemployment, if you look at the real number, it's over 20%. it could be as high as 25%. because people look for jobs, they give up and the real number is a disaster. and if you think 25,000 people come to my rallies because we're doing well, the reason they're coming to my rallies because the country is doing poorly and that includes the economy. now you're seeing the stock market. >> final question, martin luther king day this week, what do you say to african-americans who believe his dream hasn't achieved in this country? >> oh, i agree with them. and especially under president obama. we have an african-american president, the african-american youth has essentially never done worse. you look at the unemployment in
african-american people that are 30 and 35 and 40 in the height of their strength and their lives and they're doing horribly. president obama, an african-american has done a terrible job for african-americans. donald trump will do a great job for african-americans. i'll bring back jobs from china and many other places. i will be great for african-americans. more from donald trump in just a minute and then the democrats. hillary clinton and bernie sanders both join us live this week ahead of tonight's big debate. the attacks are coming hard and fast. >> announcer: "this week" with george stephanopoulos brought to you by pacific life. for life insurance, annuities and investments, choose pacific life. the power to help you succeed. and investments, choose pacific life. the power to help you succeed. because getting there requires exactly that. a plan for what you want your future to look like. for more than 145 years, pacific life has been
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last several months. a little more disciplined, a little more focused, what have you learned about campaigning in the last several months? >> i think i did very well in the beginning. don't forget, i have been at the top of the polls from almost the very first day. i'm an intelligent person like you are, we're intelligent people, probably i toned it down a little bit sometimes. but sometimes you can't tone it down. when you're dealing against china, who's just killing us and you're dealing against mexico they're sending us and other groups of people that are doing big numbers on us and we're losing a fortune as a country and we're losing our heart and we're losing our soul. you have to be pretty strong. you don't want to tone it down too much. >> you're all in now? you're going to do everything you can? shake every hand? >> i'm here. i'm number one in every single place, including iowa, by the way, all of the latest polls
and i have a great relationship with the people and the evangelicals and the tea party. no, we're looking to do very well. it's going to be very exciting. february 1st we start. >> what do you think of that theory if you lose iowa, it all spirals down? >> i think i'll do well in iowa. if i don't make it at iowa, at a minimum i do think it's going to be close, but i think i'm going to win iowa. i think i'm going to do fantastically in new hampshire. south carolina, it's going to be great. nevada. i think i'm going to do well. democrats up next, both hillary clinton and bernie sanders here live in just two minutes. the future belongs to the fast. and to help you accelerate, we've created a new company... one totally focused on what's next for your business. the true partnership where people,technology and ideas push everyone forward.
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>> well, look, i'm pleased like i hope everybody is that, we have american citizens coming home this morning from iran. they were unjustly held there and i did a lot of work on these issues when americans were being picked up, falsely charged and imprisoned to get them home, i applaud the fact that's happened. we still don't see bob levinson coming home, so we still have unfinished business. i think this is a part of what we're going to be pursuing, persistent, patient diplomacy, today is also the day that we have verified the iranians have followed through on the requirements under the nuclear agreement. they have shipped out the vast majority, i think it's up to 98% of their enriched uranium, they have poured cement into one of the reactors we worried about because of a plutonium potential threat.
so, this is the kind of smart diplomacy i was proud to be a part of in the first administration of president obama. we have a lot of problems with iran, their aggressive behavior, their destabilizing of neighboring states, their continuing military support for assad and so much else. but the fact we put the lid on the nuclear weapons program, the fact that we got our prisoners back, i think is reason for good news. >> let's get to the campaign right now, strange series of events yesterday. the super pac coordinating with you put out word they would demanding the release of the sanders' health records. your campaign disavowed it. it appeared to go away. what is relevant here and what's not? should aging health be an issue in this campaign? >> oh, look, i put out my
you've been around long enough to know, george, this is all part of expectation. but, i think it's fair to say i share a lot of the same goals with senator sanders about what we need to do on behalf of our country. but we have differences and that's what i'm focusing on now, we're going to have a spirited debate, i expect tonight, in charleston. certainly, senator sanders has been pointing out differences. one issue i have drawn a stark contrast on is guns, i have pointed out repeatedly because i think it's a critical issue that senator sanders has for years voted many times on behalf of the nra gun lobby position and one of the most egregious of those votes was to give immunity all liability to gunmakers and sellers. -- well, he flip flopped last night saying he would sign on to a bill that is currently pending in the house and senate to
change of heart. i think that's all to the good. now, i hope he'll take a hard look at what we call the charleston loophole, that's a provision he also voted for that gives a gun to a potential buyer after three days whether or not the background check has been completed and it's called the charleston loophole because that's how the killer in charleston got his gun. if there had been a little more time, information would have come to light to show he was prohibited. he used that gun to murder nine faithful people at bible study. so, i want to see movement against the gun lobby because we cannot continue to lose 90 people a day, 30,000 a year, to gun violence and i welcome senator sanders moving on one of the issues he was wrong on. >> we'll ask him about that in a few minutes. another big difference is health care.
are you against that, because it's a bad idea because it's not practical, would a single-payer system be better if you could get it passed? >> well, first, i share the goal of universal health care. you know very well that i threw myself into that back in '93 and '94 and still have the scars to show for it. so, the goal is, we want everybody to have access to quality affordable health care. but i think we should be defending the affordable care act. this is a historic achievement for this country and president obama. we are making progress. i want us to protect it, to defend it and improve it. the republicans keep trying to repeal it and offer nothing in place of it. so, rather than tear it apart or get rid of it and start all over again in a contentious national debate, let's do what i'm proposing to get costs down, get
face big medical costs let's deal with the rising costs of prescription drugs. that's the right way for the country to go and certainly it's what i'm advocating. >> you also have your differences over wall street. i was struck this morning, american crossroads, the super pac founded by karl rove has just launched this online ad in iowa. >> hillary clinton has gone 54 times more money from wall street interests than all of iowa. hillary rewarded wall street with the $700 billion bailout. then, wall
street made her a multimillionaire. >> i represented wall street. >> yep, you sure did, hillary. >> that echoes the points being made by bernie sanders and his campaign. are you worried that your ties to wall street are weighing you down? >> well, first, let me say, it shows how desperate the icans are to prevent from becoming the nominee.
flattering comment on their anxiety, because they know that not only will i
stand up for what the country needs, i will take it to the republicans. i have a track record which shows i know how to stand up to them and i will win. i think this just proves my point that i'm the strongest candidate to go up against any republican. with the back and forth on wall street, i think it's, you know, look, i have stood up to wall street even though i did represent new york. i have advocated for changes. but what i find sort of strange is, number one, the ad that senator sanders ran was against all democrats who took contributions from anybody associated with the financial industry, that would include president obama who took more than anyone ever had in 2008, that did not stop him from turning around and imposing the toughest rules on wall street
same with barney frank, who has actually written about this. that is just a false charge. but in addition, i think it's important for us to look at our respective plans, in fact, everyone who has offered an opinion on the plans that senator sanders put together. they say mine is tougher, more effective because it tries to get not just at the problems of yesterday but the potential problems tomorrow, going after shadow banking and investment banks and big insurance companies, like what we saw in '08 where lehman brothers and aig were principal causes of what happened to us. finally, i have gotten maybe, less than 3% of my contributions this time from anybody associated with financial industry activities. i have gotten so much more from
contributions are from smaller donors and 60% from women. so, i'm just -- you know, i didn't know about karl rove's ad against me, but it kind of boosts me up, because it assumes i'm going to get the nomination. he's trying to interfere with the iowa caucus to confuse people on their way to caucus for me. >> madame secretary, thank you for your time this morning. bernie sanders is up next. later our powerhouse roundtable takes on the rowdiest week yet in this always-surprising campaign. >> announcer: the powerhouse roundtable is brought to you by vote4.energy.org. let's get these dayquil liquid gels and go. but these liquid gels are new.
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certain fungal infections are common, and if you've had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores. don't start humira if you have an infection. raise your expectations. ask your gastroenterologist about humira. with humira, control is possible. we just heard from secretary clinton. we're joined now by senator bernie sanders. thank you for joining us again this morning. senator sanders, covered a lot of ground with secretary clinton. let's go over some of the issues with you. first of all, that back and forth yesterday whether that super pac was going to demand the release of your health records. in the end, that didn't happen. secretary clinton has released all of her records, will you? >> absolutely, of course, i mean, i think she released a two-page statement on her health records. we'll do the same.
support now of this gun liability legislation. called it a flip flop. and also said time now for you to closing this charleston loophole, will you? >> well, first of all, george, as you know, i have a d-minus voting record from the nra, in 1988 i probably lost an election because i was the only candidate who said we should ban assault weapons. what i said months and months ago is that there were things in the liability bill that i liked and things that i didn't like, wanted to take a look at this bill, now that's going to be introduced to review it and make changes to it. i think the bill makes a lot of sense. so, what we will do is be supportive of this legislation, there's an amendment, though, that i want to see incorporated that's noncontroversial, which monitors
rural america. bottom line is, i think that when a gun shop sells a gun legally to someone and then something bad happens i don't think it's fair to hold the small business -- waiting, the person gets the gun after three days of waiting no matter what. >> we'll take a look at that as well. the issue is, my view has always been and most important is that we have a strong instant background check, i have supported that from day one. i want to see that expanded and improved. look, at the end of the day, what almost every american understands we need to keep the guns out of hands of people who shouldn't have guns. >> on the issue of health care, you shouldn't tear apart obamacare. people should be defending the affordable care act. you haven't put out your details for medicare for all.
rate go to pay for it, when will those details be here? >> well, those details will be out very, very shortly. here's the point, bernie is going to dismember health care in the united states of the america, he's going to do -- millions of people will no longer have the insurance they have, that's nonsense. what everybody understands is that a medicare for all program is guaranteeing health care to all people. we still have 29 billion americans who still don't have health care. we're the only may juror country on earth doesn't guarantee health care to all people. we spend far, far more per capita on health care than other countries. what i want to do is fulfill the vision of people like harry truman and say health care is the right of all people. i would hope that secretary clinton would join me on that saying that and to tell the pharmaceutical industry they can't continue to rip off the
the highest prices in the world. >> isn't it fair for voters in iowa to know how you're going to pay for it? >> yeah. well, you know what, george, i mean, sometimes, the discussion becomes really absurd is that, we will increase medicare premiums that is true, but we are doing away with all private health insurance premiums, and sometimes, it disappoints me that the clinton campaign is kind of sounding like republicans. the truth of the matter is, we spend far more per person on health care and second of all, a medicare for all, single-payer system, it would lower the cost of health insurance for the middle class of this country. so, to say yes there will be medicare premiums, yeah, of course there will be, it's not free.
private health insurance costs. >> don't voters have a right to those details before they vote? shouldn't this come out before the iowa caucuses? >> and the answer is yes and they will. the answer is -- bottom line is, yes, and they will. >> secretary clinton's campaign has been making the point of electability electability. she seemed delighted that karl rove's campaign is now running an ad against her. in a campaign past positions are going to get scrutiny, so, i wonder how do you respond about ads circulating about your past positions? you urged congressmen to give serious thought the nationalization of the oil industry. in the long run, sanders said, all utilities must go under public ownership. >> george, that was a long, long time ago, before i ever was
i was mayor of burlington for eight years. i have been in congress for 25 years. they can go back. people can go back and look at the fact that hillary clinton was as i understand it was a supporter of barry goldwater. who cares that's a long time ago. >> i was going to ask, what was your thinking then and what changed your mind? >> what i said 40 years ago is less important. you talk about electability. if you look at all of the polls -- almost all of the polls out there today, today, what you find is that bernie sanders defeats donald trump by a much larger margin than does hillary clinton in the last national poll that i've seen, we beat trump by 13 points. if you look at the battleground states in new hampshire and iowa, we beat him a whole lot. our appeal is not only to democrats, young people, working-class people but to independents as well.
the american people are concerned about which candidate has the best opportunity to defeat right-wing republicans i think you're looking at him, it's bernie sanders. >> so, those positions you completely disavow them? >> you know, george, i have been an elected official for 25 years. yes, those positions are what were before i assumed any office. i have a record of eight years as mayor of the city of burlington. 16 years in the house. nine years in the senate. i'm very proud of that record. going back 40, 50 years, that's fine. i don't think people give much credence to that. >> senator sanders, thanks very much for your time this morning. >> thank you. our powerhouse roundtable in just 30 seconds.you.
just 30 seconds. >> announcer: the powerhouse roundtable is brought to you by vote4energy.org. vote4energy.org. time time now for the roundtable. i'm joined by jon karl, republican strategist sara fagen. who worked george w. bush, now supporting his brother jeb. ej dionne from the washington post and kevin madden and keith ellison who has endorsed bernie sanders. welcome to you all. let's begin with the republicans.
race between trump and cruz? >> it sure looks like that. absolutely in iowa. george, i have to say when ted cruz came out with this new york values attack, it looked like it was a gaffe, what it's done since, it's driven everyone back to that interview 20 years ago with tim russert, where trump is pro-choice. prohgays in the military. it may have been a master stroke by ted cruz. >> it's clear that these guys are going to go at it the next two weeks. who's going to get the better of this exchange? >> i think the person who may get the better of this exchange is the person who finishes third in new hampshire. think about these establishment candidates. there are five points that separate marco rubio and jeb bush and three in between candidates in between, christie, kasich and cruz. this is so early right now. it feels late and yes, there's
but the thing is far from over. >> it's far from over. kevin, you look at iowa, right now marco rubio in third or fourth place, if these two go at it, trump and cruz, is it possible he could rocket up at the end? >> i think the iowa race is between trump and cruz. to jon's point, i expected they would drop the new york values attack. but the biggest risk for trump right now is, no one has been 20 on the attack. none of the information has been new. this feels like it's new at a time for a lot of voters making up their minds in the last 14 days before the caucuses that the idea of a new york liberal could be their nominee would start to worry them. >> keith, so far anyone who has tangled with trump has gone down. >> new york liberal? trump? news to me. well, let me tell you, i have to stand back and say they're all anti-immigrant. they have tried to divide based
it bodes well for the democrat ic candidate. i support bernie, but any democratic candidate that can compare him or herself with these guys is >> let me bring that over to ej, because the republican establishment appears, coming around to the idea that one of these two could really be their nominee. and not their first choice. >> it's amazing. i think what it speaks to is the transformation of the republican party that i talk about in the book. the party made promises to conservatives that they couldn't keep, rolling back cultural change. lot of working-class republicans are mad, they voted for the party having not gotten much out of it. trump is the revenge of those voters and if you look at the primary electorate liberals have left the republican party, moderates are gone. that's why we're talking about cruz and trump. >> it's hard to know what the establishment is now. >> lot of them have gone over the tea party.
that we're not talking about it, independents can pick up a republican ballot. >> and a democratic ballot. >> certainly put that question to you, as i said, you did work for president george w. bush. as you talk to your former colleagues, if they're forced to choose between trump and cruz, who do they choose? >> i think they would support ted. >> that's a tough call. >> here's the thing -- you know, ted is a brilliant man, he can be very abrasive. but we also forget that, you know, outside the beltway people don't know any of this. what they see is a young conservative who's very articulate on issues that they care about. and people inside the beltway gets caught up this the personalities and the cocktail parties. i don't think that's going to matter to the average primary voter. >> but you did see, kevin, this
haley to give the response to for the republican party. she did have that direct shot to donald trump. >> right. there was also a backlash, so many voters out there felt like they were being scolded by this establishment, that they feel there's a cannon between them and the republicans in washington. they feel like their anger is legitimate and that their voices aren't being heard. they don't want another establishment leader in washington to tell them their anger is not legitimate, that's why you saw so much in the talk radio world and also so many among the grassroots conservatives start to push back on nikki haley. >> trump showed restraint when he didn't go after nikki haley, actually praised her. that was disciplined restraint. >> more and more polished as a result of that. >> i thought kevin made an excellent point earlier, when he
introducing this new york values argument, i think this was very smart by ted, it was strategic and it allows an avenue to put forth new information about donald trump which there is much, which his record is quite liberal. >> new york used to have a lot of republicans. >> democrats in south carolina tonight, keith ellison, we saw from the interviews with hillary clinton and bernie sanders, they're going to go at it on what are you most concerned about? >> i think bernie can hold up under any of these questions. i mean, he's been very clear that he recognizes the problems with guns. he supports president obama's position. i think he'll be fine. but i think the bigger worry is, how do we really address the real problems of the american people?
that the whole system is rigged against them, i mean, anyone associated with that, they got the main problem and bernie sanders is picking up on this. you mentioned and i think that some of these conservatives should look at bernie, he's straight up, honest. >> the other thing he has going for him, ej dionne, this des moines register poll showing that 43% of democratic caucus goers in iowa identify themselves as socialists. >> i don't think that's shocking after the wall street crash. they have all gone out to see "the big short." i think right from the beginning i think it was a mistake to think that bernie couldn't win iowa, as you know, those are very progressive democrats that show up at the caucuses. in new hampshire he's right next door. and i think clinton has to
bernie sanders voters for her, i need you now, don't just send a message send a precedent. >> she's got to win. right exactly. >> bernie sanders is in this. he's legit. the numbers are showing it. i think that this argument that there are some inevitability to the outcome has to be wiped away. >> her best answer to me was, if karl rove is going after me they must be worried about me. you'll have to find them on a milk carton. >> 9:00 on the weekend. >> hillary clinton has been at her worst playing prevent defense. looking like she was inevitable.
not engageing. now, she's realizing, look, bernie sanders can win in iowa and new hampshire, she would be still the front-runner in south carolina. >> let's not forget, nevada come comes before south carolina. so, you could have a scenario where bernie sanders wins three contests. for a month, she hasn't won a contest. if she loses three contests. it's going to be hard for her to recover. >> i like the fact the bernie sanders and hillary clinton are competing on the issues that americans care about the most. i feel good about where we're at. >> and one is calling for a massive tax increases which the country can't afford to pay for any of this stuff. >> i want to bring to you, kevin, a little bit of time left, a lot of people are going to look at this and see bernie sanders and hillary clinton on the democratic side, donald
republican side, michael bloomberg is going to take a look at this, does this make a third-party run inevitable? >> if donald trump is a nominee, you'll see an incrennel amount of pressure from the establishment to see someone who who's more electable, someone who can actually govern. many of those establishment republicans particularly the donors, i think they believe not only is donald trump bad for the party but for if the country. >> ten seconds. >> rather trump lose and split the party than have him be