tv Quadriga - The International Talk Show LINKTV October 31, 2015 2:00pm-2:31pm PDT
agreed on measures to bring order to the chaos. up,ols will be stepped refugees registered, and deportation procedures accelerated. that raises the question, will your build new walls to keep the refugees out? coming to you from berlin, "quadriga". >> will the latest plan to manage the crisis work? hollowdoes, will it out core principles? that's what we want to find out today. judy dempsey is a columnist for the international herald tribune and works at carnegie europe. she says the walls are being built, physical and mental.
alan posener with us again. german commentator for die welt, and says that if we want to keep the free movement of people, we have to keep those we don't want out. either new walls without or within. a pleasure to welcome janosch delcker, a political correspondent for politico europe in berlin. he says holding walls won't help. europe needs to address the reasons that makes refugees leave their home countries in the first place. judy dempsey, a new plan joins the pile. let's remember one of the other recent ones, the one that sought to redistribute 120,000 refugees fairly. 900 of those have been transferred so far.
that in mind, what are the chances that this plan will be implemented in time? judy: it won't and it can't be limited. it can't be because it involves the balkan countries. the european union and member court's signed 20 --rs ago -- a courts mismanagement in kosovo. albania is functioning, but rule of law is weak. montenegroth greece, , but essentially the rule of law, governments, and state building is too weak. these countries are too poor. sunday, other eu member countries to say that we will give you money. we will set up containment
centers, registration centers, so that you can wave the refugees through. theoretically, the support would be there. judy: this is a spectacular common eu solution. said, it iselcker the origins of the problem that have to be tackled. german chancellor angela merkel knew that the agreement didn't go halfway towards what we wanted. we know that germany needs peace in syria. >> may i add to that question mark i think the eu is less willing to throw money at the root causes of migration than these concrete measures trying to implement in the balkans. >> i want to come back to root causes later. let's take a closer look at this plan. even if it were implemented, janosch delcker, how much
difference would it make? german chancellor angela merkel did say this is a first step at best. janosch: those people are on their way. , and one thing to propose another is the question how effective walls are. >> it proposes creating a registration center. those are not walls. janosch: that is true. one step back. what was agreed upon on sunday was that the countries work with each other better than before. this will only work if there is some sort of coordination. what we are seeing now is slovenia mentioning that they will build walls for croatia. we have had these talks, went back-and-forth with austria building a wall, so it is
shifting to that debate now. >> even if they were to set up these registration centers with the supposedly money that would be flowing from countries like germany, how much good could that possibly do in terms of reducing the numbers of those who do eventually get asylum, given the huge size of the tide? alan: i don't think these registration centers are intended to reduce the tide. >> aren't they intended to filter the stream? to sort out those without legitimate claims? alan: they are registered with a fingerprint, and all the police forces and frontier agencies of europe are equipped with the software that can recognize this. registered inwas croatia, then comes to bavaria
and says i've just arrived from syria, they take the fingerprint and can show that we know where you have been. at least they know who has been where, claiming what kind of benefits. this is just managing the problem. it is not reducing the number, but it is important because the fact is that we don't know who is where. we don't know who is claiming benefits where. we don't know who came from where. there may be 100,000 people in germany illegally here because they have not had a chance to register. so, ok, this is a small measure, but one that has to be done. we will see if it works. if it works, fine. that's a small step in the right direction. >> correct me if i am wrong. are taken intoo these registration centers are not consent on their way to where ever they want to go. the idea is that they would
first of all have to apply for asylum, and once they received a silent, they would then be distributed officially, not necessarily to their first country of choice. now that will but not be attractive to a number of refugees. what is the likelihood that it will really slow the tide of those who take it upon themselves to cross rivers, climb fences, and get to the countries that they see as germany and sweden. we will have to wait to see, won't we? all this talk, people saw german chancellor angela merkel saying you are welcome, so they set off from baghdad. they are also seeing people in the winter in the balkans, the lines in front of the registration centers in berlin. they also see asylum centers being burnt down. there can't be any feeling in baghdad or damascus or aleppo
that they will be welcome in germany. so there may, realization to these people that i might be better off in belgrade in spite of everything than berlin. i might be better off goodness knows where, turkey. i'm not in favor of sending bad messages, but these people can read, use the internet. they are seeing that they are not welcome here in germany. they would have to react. >> are they really not welcome here in germany? -- news surveyie out that shows that three quarters of germans, the most in europe, are still saying that we are happy to take in those who have a legitimate claim. it is remarkable how public opinion has been
maintained. you have various parallel sections of the society, political elites quite divided over this, and german chancellor angela merkel's conservative bloc is wavering. there are state elections coming up. you have the older people, but to be fair, all the people in germany feel uncomfortable with this, the older generation, that the comfort zone has been punctured. then you have a younger generation who has discovered civil society, reawakening, spontaneous, break through the bureaucracy and help people. they have had enough of this. they have seen this war, on television, on social media, iraq and syria, and said it is now time to help. this is remarkable. this is german chancellor angela merkel's strength of the moment. >> and yet many people are
saying that if the germans remain so positive on immigration, that undoubtably is the macro effect. do you think that is right? janosch: i think she had an impact on that. she said that we will manage. >> she is still saying that. janosch: even though she is adding subclauses now. thatas a certain amount goes through her, yes. this one, exactly like the decision she made about the energy shift. there is no going back on this. you can't. and this is german chancellor angela merkel's huge crisis, because it is visible. the euro crisis was not entirely visible for the public. or russia's invasion of eastern ukraine. we are getting into a very
complex idea here. the idea that for one section of the population, the idea of europe changing and being open, and these people, and another section feel that this is a threat. german chancellor angela merkel sees this as an opportunity. others see it as a threat. >> does she see it as an opportunity or necessity? she has told the leaders who met last sunday that effective measures not taken, the end of europe. those are strong words from a chancellor putin -- chancellor not normally given to hype. janosch: if we can't manage as europe to managed this crisis. she is forced by the popular wing of her own coalition government and by public opinion
to close germany's borders, and the rest of europe is putting up --ders, hungry has done so hungry has done so, britain is -- ilping, france is in don't know what would happen if they had to take numbers like this, pollens elected right-wing government, so that if this happens, yes, europe could fall apart. i think it is important to we can do it. we will manage. it was not just a humanitarian gesture. it was also a political move. she understood from the beginning that this influx of refugees can be stopped. -- can't be stopped. ago andspeaking a week said we live in a globalized world, goods circulate, people circulate. they can't be stopped if they are coming because of war.
>> german chancellor angela merkel would definitely answer, no, walls are not the answer. she has said it explicitly. she said that the crisis could wind up eating the end of europe if it is not managed well. critics say that some of the new print -- plan provisions and spell the end of europe, or at least its core principles for the asylum of victims of war and political persecution. let's take a look at two examples. ♪ >> number one, afghanistan, refugees could face repatriation. they would be sent back to a country where germany is still involved in a military mission. human rights activist and aid workers say security in afghanistan is worse than a decade. police officers and civilians increasingly being targeted. the taliban and is on the advance, threatening not only women, but everyone claiming the
right to an education. turkey,number two, critics say the turkish president is responsible for the growing destabilization. they see turkey on the brink of civil war and pick -- dictatorship. president recep tayyip erdogan is not only fighting the kurds, opposition is being targeted. the german interior minister said that germany has given afghanistan millions in development aid. it ought to be considered safe by now and people should stay there. ?sn't that rather cynical say it is.ld
i would say it is dangerous to send those people back there. i talked to and afghanistan refugee this week. he told me those people are being sent back, a majority of those people will get into the hands of the taliban because the country is in economic hardship. these are the only ways for them to make 11, joining the taliban or isis. , joining theing tele-ban or isis. >> the government is once again going after the kurds. can we see the turks seeking refugee -- refuge in europe don't deserve it? judy: i think turkey is going through a dangerous time. president recep tayyip erdogan is doing everything possible to destroy the remnants of
democracy. it was thriving. the rule of law was taking shape. now going back would be an invitation to prison. we have a real problem with turkey now. german chancellor angela merkel discovered that when she went to visit president recep tayyip erdogan, pleading for help. it's going against our own principles. >> resolve the paradox for us. german chancellor angela merkel has been seen throughout this crisis as the voice of reason and moral principle. why would she have agreed on sunday to these two questionable repatriations? janosch: they are necessary. it does not mean we can give everyone everything and we will be fine. it means we can manage the crisis and help those most in need.
and we can only do it if we have help. europe has not helped german chancellor angela merkel. she turns to turkey. indeed, europe is promising turkey a fast track to membership and other goodies which mean turning a blind eye to turkey and whoever is president. someone remains that who seeks asylum doesn't have the right to choose where they get asylum. you may flee from someone who is trying to kill you, but you can't say i would like to go to germany because the benefits are better there. i can understand that, but it is not right. if we say there are parts of afghanistan that we control, you can go there. we have a right to say that. ifwe say that within turkey, you are an opposition journalist you can stay if you like, but if it is an area that is curtis,
you can go somewhere else where there is no civil war. let's face it. these people do not need asylum in germany. for the public to continue to support german chancellor angela merkel, they will go along for refuge for those who genuinely needed. german chancellor angela merkel recognizes this. the message has to get out. ,> as judy dempsey mentioned the chancellor is under considerable pressure within the political elite, including her own sister party, the christian social union. leader has given her an ultimatum saying that if she doesn't come up with limits on immigration by next sunday, there will be trouble. it is unclear what trouble exactly, but does that explain her cave in on this at all? >> at least partially. i think this points towards the
porting afghan asylum-seekers. it is part of a strategy to stowe -- show strength. this strategy has been targeting so-called economic migrants from the west balkans, and now it is shifting to afghans as the numbers of asylum seekers from the balkan countries are decreasing. when hehook your head says that partially explains it. judy: explain her shift. german chancellor angela merkel is alone in this crisis. she is alone at the top, not only germany, but alone in europe. so much for european solidarity. german chancellor angela merkel brought the europeans together with sanctions over russia, and the eurozone, and somehow the europeans are saying that you
look after this. so much for solidarity. heaven forbid if something went really wrong in ukraine. would europe open the door to ukrainians? >> let's take a look at another potential pressure that european leaders in many countries are facing. a number of countries are seeing the rise of right-wing parties riding a wave of anxiety and fear about migration. let's take a look. ♪ >> there is a move to the right in europe. the most recent example is poland. to victory on an anti-migrant ticket. it opposes taking in muslin refugees and rejects refugee quotas. in switzerland, the right wing svp also scored a victory.
it called for stricter immigration rules, including quotas on people moving from the eu. its liberaln for asylum policy, saw a racially motivated attack at a school with immigrant pupils. observers say it is a sign of a growing radicalization on the right to the far right sweden democrats have stored -- sort in opinion polls. poland, switzerland, sweden, just three examples of how right-wing parties are gaining ground in europe. now germany does have its own anti-immigration movement, alan posener. we talked about it last week. it is based in dresden. it also has the alternative for asd party.e
how much of a threat is that to german chancellor angela merkel and the political elites in the mainstream? alan: we were talking about the populist tones going national, which was the threat behind -- and they are worried in the thet-wing of the csu if become a strength in politics. actually, as much as i personally dislike the csu, it might be a good idea to have a bona fide right wing conservative party rather than the dodgy afd. so this is a normal thing. you have the party which is now in power in poland. why not have --
>> you are saying that under german chancellor angela merkel it has radically changed. the party that hasn't changed is the bavarian-based csu. and german chancellor angela her party pushed towards the center. maybe we need another write-in party? let's see if they can survive without german chancellor angela merkel? >> yes. >> very briefly, come back to your opening statement in which your needs to become better in addressing the reasons that make refugees leave their countries in the first place. you share that opinion with the chancellor. she has said we need to address migration at its root causes, but let's be realistic. germany is a small country in the middle of europe. do you think it is going to manage to put out the
conflagration in the middle east? >> germany by itself isn't. europe as a whole, there needs to be more european solidarity in dealing with this crisis and the root causes. in practical terms, i think there needs to be more money for those places where migration pressure is emerging. that is the important part. >> we don't have that cooperation. we seem to have a prisoner's dilemma. everybody would be better off if they cooperate. if one builds walls, then the others will as well. >> that is a possibility. i'm waiting for the next u.s. president. maybe he will do something decisive on syria and europe. >> thank you for being with us this week. see you next week. ♪
♪ damien: hello and welcome to "focus on europe" - with some of the very best human stories behind the headlines. i'm damien mcguinness. and we've got a really great program lined up for you today. free speech in the spotlight in turkey. russia inching forward into georgia. and feathered friends fight loneliness in british nursing when it comes to the refugee crisis, all eyes are suddenly on turkey.