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tv   Quadriga - The International Talk Show  LINKTV  May 14, 2016 2:00pm-3:01pm PDT

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♪ talks turmoil. hope or fear? that is our topic today on "quadriga." negotiators from the u.s. and europe working around the clock, trying to finalize a transatlantic trade agreement. they thought they were working in secret until a large chunk of th notiatingound itsay on the internet. could that spelled the end of tpp? the planned agreement is bringing more onto the streets in protest. europeans are worried about consumer protection and environment all standards, especially after greenpeace
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leaked damaging information from the talks. investors and companies are eager for a deal. the german chancellor and the u.s. president both stand behind tpp, saying it will encourage economic growth and trade. votes orraise all benefit only wealthy corporations and the elite? that is what we want to talk about with 3 experts following it. the head of the apartment of external economic -- of the end of external economic policy. she says german industry giveves that tpp will committees better access to the u.s. market. but it's aborted that it remain -- it's important that it remains ambitious. editor of the opinion page. he says tpp will most likely boost economies on both sides of
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the atlantic and strengthen transatlantic ties. european fears about decisively lower food environmental standards are overblown. the head of greenpeace's political unit in behind last week's major-league. he says tpp has to be stopped because in the agreement, consumer and environmental protections are less important than business interests. >> aren't business interests pretty important for europe at the moment? growth here is lacking. unemployment is drastically high. can europe afford to walk away from an agreement that would create the biggest free-trade zone in e world? >> negottions ha so far en coletely bind clos doors. even elected members of parliament could not talk publicly about it. we just opened the floor for
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public debate. if europe decides whether to continue these talks or to skip them, i would not say this is the moment. this is up to europe. >> clearly greenpeace is of the opinion that what is at stake certainly does not justify an agreement of the kind that is shaping up. >> yes, we are critical towards ttip. we think this is the kind of trade deal which we don't need. there has been a lot of ongoing relationships between the u.s. and europe in terms of economic trade. we don't think that, as is his set up, it can really boost standards. to the contrary, it will probably lower the standards we already have in europe. and some th are higher in the u.s.. end, we don't expect very
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good things to come out of this. >> we will take another look at the standards. but isn't slightly lower standards perhaps a justifiable price to pay for getti more jobs? >> i do't think so, no. we suld not wer conser protection and environmental protection standards. these are things we have worked for hardly over the last decade. these are hard standards worldwide. i don't think we should put it at risk just because some corporations need a bit more money. >> according to classical theory, it only brings prosperity for all if the gains from opening markets are used to compensate those that lose out -- those seeing their wages fall. that almost never happens, which is why trade is an issue on major size of the atlantic. what is the experience we have se with angreement like nafta? doesn't it indicate that, in fact, those gains rarely get redistributed? >> no, we don't agree with that observation. if you look at the history of
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germany or european union, we see clearly that trade has boosted economic growth. it has boosted income. it is a very important foundation of our wealth. i would say also for the north american area, for canada and the u.s. and mexico. looking at germany, every fourth job in this country depends on trade. in industry, it is every second job. trade to gp is almost 86% -- to gdp is a most 86%. that is massively important for our wealth. we depend on open global markets. we believe that ttip is something we we should not walk away from, especially looking at some of our european neighbors who have not experienced such sound gwth as wdid in t pastears. they need a new growth impulse. this is a chance we should take.
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ttip is not just important because of economic growth and jobs. we believe that trade agreements are much more today than just about opening markets. it is about how we want to trade with each other. it's about global rules, really. >> let's come back to that in just a moment. we have one con voice, one pro voice. you can be the tie-breaker here. you said in your opening statement that you thought ttip would probably boost the u.s. and european economy. a somewhat conditional statement there. the u.s. is already germany's greatest trading partner. terrace already pretty low. already pretty low. would this justify the risks? >> i don't know that it would justify the risk. countries that already have agreements don't need another agreement. we have a european union. we had agreements between
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germany and spain, and other countries, and we still think the european uni, forming hugeunit of cmon tradnd lel res is a good idea. i think that it is in principle a good idea. the gains are dependent on if we have ttip light, for the -- or the originally planned reement. let me make twoore points. one, eopeans havekepticis it is geany, atria, an luxeourg. other 2member stes of t european union have a majority for ttip. the next point is secrecy. does green priest -- does greenpeace -- are agreements on the summit paris done in public? no it's not even made a political afr that, which is done with ttip.
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do the two coalition parties have open discussions about how they form agreements? no. all this is me behind closed doors to make secrecy the top. -- i think to make secrecy the top point of ttip, i think that is overblown. >> i think you said under your breath that you don't internally agree in terms of the dissolution of opposition. >> first of all, let me at one point. growth so far isn't the promise of ttip has been delivered. the european commissioner says the growth rate would be 0.5% over 10 years. it is practically nothing. that is not growth. on terms of transparency, nobody is expecting politicians sitting at the market place in brussels and disclosing it publicly. i followed the climate negotiations. they are much more transparent than ttip has ever been.
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host: even now? the european trade commission has set up rooms. they said this is the most transparency they are provided on diplomatic negotiations. >> sorry, but a reading room were a member of parliament can only enter under gardens is not -- under guidance, and is not allowed to take copies, or take an expert with them, and should not talk about anybody afterwards -- has to sign a paper on this -- this is not the high stage. >> so that means you have official russian and chinese docunts saying what kind of point they are going into? >> of course. if y ou know them, that is another point. can they even participate in the negotiations as observer? you cannot contribute to the discussion. you can follow the negotiations point by point. that is a different scene of
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transparency. i don't understand why a trade deal needs this type of complete secrecy. i prefer the understand there needs to be competent between the parties negotiation. -- be confidence between the parties negotiating. host: let's get back to the geographic issue. she is shaking her head now. clearly you don't quite agree on the point about growth or transparency? [laughter] >> actually both. with approval ratings, a new poll done twice a year. the last one in november should pretty clearly that for europe as a whole, the support wave is still pretty high. the majority of europeans support ttip. it's actually four countries where the majority are against ttip. one is slovenia, if i am not mistaken.
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the debate we are having in germany is pretty specific. host: we do have a report about that. but give us your view on the growth point, and the point about transparency. >> we believe we already trade a lot with the u.s. uldre is a lot of gain we co utilize by getting rid of excess in trade barriers. he said that tariffs are already pretty low. taking into account how much we trade, even removing those barriers with the two quite an impact. -- barriers would lead to quite an impact. i'm not talking about environmental standards, but technical barriers to trade. t issue oransparey, transparency is really vital for the legitimacy of the negotiations. we always have supported that the negotiation dates with the
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public. --negotiation mandate would be public. we believe the needs to be room for negiators tet together and negotiate. i am pretty sure you wouldn't like us to be in the room in the negotiators, breathing down their necks. i think there needs to be a room of protection for them. host: what do you say to the charges that there might be opposition in some european countries, but it is strongest in germany. it has brought tens of thousands onto the streets. why is that? >> there is a strong consumer and environment or movement in germany. germany's environmental policy has a high respect in the population. it's a growing skepticism all over europe. seeing reactions in france, for example. chancellor merkel did not say
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the same thing as president hollande. there is much stronger opposition growing. specifically in germany, we are very sensitive if environ mental standards are put at risk. and also consumer protection -- these are important issues. thear as ttip stands, in regulatory corporation, these are not put at stake. host: let's look at some of the things worrying german consumers. ♪ >> many germans have fears about ttip. they are scared in the future they will have to eat chlorinated chickens, or gm corn. two symbols for what many view as lower consumer safety standards in the u.s. others are worried about social dumping. that's good jobs in germany with social benefits would be replaced by more precarious once with longer hours and lower wages. some are afraid of environment a live next --environmental impacts. fracking, a controversial method
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for obtaining oil and gas, could be extended. or renewable energy could be viewed by the u.s. as a trade barrier. then there are fears involving culture. the u.s. is against book price fixing and film subsidies. it says cultural fields distort competition. are the fears justified? will ttip bring europe more problems than solutions? host: is this just another case of german and, or is there much would -- german angst, or is there more to it than that? >> it is the perception of ttip. it is combined with perception of america in general. the greedy companies who wait for class action to be taken. we have w in for mentaand food standards. -- low environmental and food standards. reality speaks the opposite. if we look at the fifa schedule,
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or all that is brought up, it is in the united states. host: it is begotten states that brings these -- the united states that brings these scandals to light. >> yes, and car manufacturers, things like that. host: interesting that you make that point. it seems that many americans believe their own standards are higher than european ones. you lived in the u.s. for 5 years. what is your impression of the standards there? >> the standards are quite high. and the punishment for companies that violate these standards is even higher. if you have bp exxon petrol scandal, they paid billions and damages for that. the volkswagen scandal, they will tell -- will pay billions for that. the punishment is high if you violate standards. the other point, why is it that in germany -- germans do in fact
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have high expectations towards ecological standards. but something else happened in the past. the nsa, the national security agency scandal. the fear they need some kind of revenge. they think it is more in the interest of the americans than the europeans to have this kind of deal. there is this kind of perception. it's that perception that says no. if we say no, we teach the americans a lesson. issue.o the standards let's start with chicken. the u.s. chicken colored with chlorine. european chicken often injected with antibiotics. is that much better? why shouldn't consumers be permitted to choose whether they want a chicken poisoned by
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chlorine and poisoned by antibiotics? [laughter] >> it's not being against america or anything coming from there. i may remind you, this was founded by americans and canadians. even some standards are higher in the u.s. take the logic and oxide emissions, for the simple. we would be happy to have them in germany. -- the nitrogen oxide emissions, for example. it is all about the same problem. the problem is, if an industrialized agriculture with gmo food, with hormone treated some chickenay be and chlorine -- this might not be the biggest problem, but this type of our culture taking over, -- type of agriculture taking over, we have a problem. we have big profits, but also small regional producers. the standards in europe, especially the ecological standards, are quite higher than
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they are in the u.s. so we should keep them. standards mean higher cost. the system you advocate is a paternalistic system. not all consumers can and want to pay more for their food. isn't it somewhat presumptuous to say that those of lower income should not have the right to choose cheaper food that is not quite at the same level? >> well, we don't say that. people can do that today. we don't need more imports from the u.s. to do that. we don't say that everyone has to buy eco food and no other food will be allowed. what we say is that the industrial eco-culture has a lot of flaws. it has a disastrous impact on the environment. it is the number one problem in terms of biodiversity, in terms of water pollution. we all know that. we should strive to get a better agriculture. this is not the agricultural model that is used in the u.s.,
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which is the large-scale industrial model. we should strive for other models. i don't think that ttip will be any improvement here. host: it has been suggested that ttip will replace european social market capitalism with something more like the.s. sino capalist mel, puttg corpations ithe drivs seat, grepeace said wh it leaked theocuments is there an element of truth to that? >> we don't think so. first of all, i wanted to say something on the agricultural market in the u.s. i don't think it is correct to say that it's only industrial agriculture, which the u.s. has. it has a huge market for small and medium-sized firms, and also organic farming. the organic firming market in the u.s. is bigger than our market. the criteria for organic firming is just as high as here. they are even stricter with the use of antibiotics in meat production. this painting of black and
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white, that is something we shouldn't do. the u.s. has higher standards in some areas, we have higher standards in others. will ttip lead to a lower standard, to a lower common denominator? we don't believe so. of course, most of our coomer -- consumer- most of our protection standards are under law. why should parliament ever agree to a ttip that will take away what they have fought for? on the other side of the atlantic, congress has fought, and president obama has fought for higher standards for the environment reduction agency. why, ever, should he agree on the lowest denominator and lowest standards? i just don't see that, not in a democratic system. host: let me take us into the future, the very short term. the ttip negotiations are new moving into what the negotiators call the endgame.
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the rush is on to get the agreement settled by this summer. the big question is -- can the goat negotiators -- the negotiators come over one issue when it comes to arbitration? >> for four years, the international center for the settlement of investment disputes has been imitating -- been trading an explosive case. a swedish giant is suing germany. the company says it lost money because the country decided in 2012 to phase out nuclear energy, to force it to take nuclear reactors off-line early. the firm says it has been treated unjustly, and that investments are now worthless. it's demanding 4.7 billion euros in reparations. the case has heightened fears that if ttip comes under law, foreign companies could have national laws overruled by the court at world bank in washington. do such course -- such courts
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pose a threat to national sovereignty? host: what do you think -- threat to national sovereignty? and if so, can a condi rice be -- can a compromise be found? these are commercial arbitrations. >> by the rule of law, they have laws. they follow up and they need to see if they were obliged to them. in the last 20 years, i think there were 17 cases that the americans brought like that. you can give these courts regulations that minimizes the risks we have justs een. the eu commission has made a counter proposal for the eu-u.s. trade court that would be the estate entity. can greenpeace live with that? >> we don't see it as a compromise.
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we see it as a cosmetic attempt to get ttip down the road. it would also create a justice court in parallel to the already existing, democratically legitimized system. we don't need that between two very developed groups of states. if you do an investment in a country that has a bad government -- developing countries still have corruption -- i understand that investors want to have an assurance, some kind of possibility to make lawsuits against the government. but this is not necessary between the u.s. and europe. we have a perfectly developed system of justice. we don't need private arbitrators to do the job. forng no possibility ordinary people and ordinary courts to claim that position. host: there has been u.s. suggestions to sideline the
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issue and go with a leaner version of ttip consensus where it can be found. you say you don't want ttip -lite. why not? >> because today trade is not just about shipping goods from one country to another, trade comes different from 20-30 years ago. it's about trade and services, it has something to do with data. trade has to come -- has become a different animal. so we need new rules, rules that we don't have yet. it would be great to have these through the world trade organization. but since 200-, they have not delivered these rules. we need to see how we can test them with partners close to us. a chance to as shape these rules. by the way, investment section is one of these areas -- investment protection is one of these areas where it could be a
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good case. host: the window is closing both for the show and for ttip. negotiators want to get it done by summer, because after obama's term ends, there might not be any pro-trade person at the white house. will it happen? >> 60% yes. i might underestimate the recent -- the resistance in europe. host: do you think it will go though? >> i don't think so, to be honest. i don't think the european trade agreement should see light of day either. >> it will be tricky, for us, the content is more important than time. host: thanks very much to all of you for being with us. and thanks to all of you for tuning in. see you soon. ♪
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♪ michelle: hello and welcome to focus on europe where we take a look at stories from across the continent that are impacting the lives of its citizens. i'm michelle henery. thanks for joining us. coming up on today's show -- turkey's pipe-carving tradition goes up in smoke . holidaymakers fear clear -- holidaymakers steer clear of belgium and survivalists in poland prepare for disaster. for the people who joined
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colonia dignidad, a secretive sect, secluded in the andes mountains of chile, there was no escape. founded in 1961, by germans, most of them former nazis, there horrifying events unfolded, including torture, slavery and child abuse. at that time , german diplomats in chile did nothing to stop the atrocities. now its victims, including erick zott, hope that germany's decision to declassify files about the group will finally help them get justice. reporter: this is erick zott's first visit to berlin in years - , a trip in decades past he would not have been free to embark on. his time trapped in the infamous colonia dignidad cult has left him traumatized, not least because of the torture he was subjected to. >> colonia dignidad remains something that i can never forget.
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attitudes towards it have improved today, as has the will to investigate what happened. but the experience is there, and will stay forever. reporter: zott was among those who openly challenged chilean leader augusto pinochet. critics of the dictator were swiftly rounded up, and colonia dignidad was among the regime's torture centers where they were held. the commune had been founded by german immigrants in 1961. the cult's leader, paul schafer, brainwashed adults and sexually abused their children. isolated from the rest of chile, the inhabitants were essentially reduced to slave labor, while the the colony's basements saw appalling atrocities. >> the electric shocks never ended, and for a long time without em even king
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estions. i suppose the point was to break any last remaining emotional or physical resistance. reporter: erick zott came to berlin last week at the invitation of the german government, together with other victims. many of them accuse the authorities of west germany and then unified germany of turning a blind eye to the reports about colonia dignidad. german foreign minister frank-walter steinmeier has acknowledged that mistakes were made. >> the embassy failed to insist the that german nationals, which the majority of colonia's residents were, be allowed to speak to consular officials. the foreign office and embassy lost their way in a conflict of interests -- maintaining sound relations with the host country and protecting human rights.
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>> not the apology victims had been hoping for, but the german government will now be declassifying files on the colony. erick zott is happy to see berlin now taking these steps. >> i value what the minister said. i think it's a new start on this front. >> not all of the victims invited to berlin see things that way, however. >> what's missing is an undertakg to comnsate us i ft the cony a dede ago, and we're still waiting. reporter: and they're waiting for the perpetators to be punished. hartmut hopp was paul schafer's number two in colonia dignidad. also head of the hospital, he is said to have used psychiatric
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drugs to pacify residents. in 2011 the chilean authorities sentenced hopp to five years in prison for aiding and abetting the sexual abuse of minors, but he'd already fled the country for germany. his citizenship here has protected him from extradition. so far. >> there's been very little progress in terms of prosecutions in chile, and practically nothing in germany. some of the perpetrators of colonia dignidad are fugitives who have been sentenced in chile. people like hartmut hopp have fled to germany to escape justice, while investigators here are not doing enough in my opinion. >> born in chile, erick zott now lives in austria. his entire time in colonia was as a prisoner of the chilean secret police. the least he hopes for is that one of the culprits from back then shows remorse.
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>> if just somebody would say sorry for something. that would mean a lot to me. we all deserve something like that. >> colonia dignidad is now known as villa baviera. and that rebranding as a "bavarian village" includes bizarre attempts to attract tourists, with events including a munich-style beer festival. the colony is currently home to around 150 people with perpetrators and victims living as next-door neighbors. nothing, neither a museum nor even a commemorative plaque, now reminds visitors of the horrors this place witnessed. michelle: you might be excused for thinking that smoking laws in europe were relaxed. after all what would a gallic shrug be without a galouise?
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but europe's anti smoking laws are becoming increasingly tough , with turkey having some of the strictest. the country bans smoking inside public buildings and workplces and is contemplating extending the ban to outdoor areas as well. this has not only stopped people from lighting up, but has also proved devastating to the country's meerschaum pipe industry. renown for centuries, te material is mined in northwest turkey and the pipes made by hand. to better understand the impact of the industry's collapse, we travelled there and met with one of the last pipe carvers. reporter: burhan yucel belongs to a dying breed. for over 60 years he has been carving miniature busts, figurines and pipes from meerschaum. it'a craft that requires supreme patice and precision. >> in europe meerschaum used to be called "white gold". pipe-smoking is olfashione and on the we, but t worst
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thing arthe antimoking ls, and not just in europe. my sales have dropped by 70 percent. >> eskisehir in northwest turkey is the cradle of the industry. hundreds of families used to make a living from fashioning meerschaum pipes. meerschaum, german for "sea foam," is a mineral stone that is soft and therefore easy to carve, and, crucially, non-flammable. eskisehir has craftsmen such as burhan yucel to thank for its prosperity. but the future looks anything but bright for the master carver. even here in his home town fewer people are now smoking meerschaum pipes. at the same time, stricter anti-tobacco laws introduced in 2008 mean that in some places even smoking outside cafes is banned. turkey's president recep tayyip erdogan has been personally heading a campaign against what he calls the "vices" of alcohol
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and tobacco. he once relieved a man of his cigarettes in front of the media, urgg him to kick the habit. but many men and women on the street do not take kindly to being told what to do: >> you can't smoke anywhereow! and yet there's a certain sophistication about pipe-smoking. you don't smoke on the street. you need an accommodating environment to enjoy your pipe. >> the meerschaum filters out 80 percent of the nicotine. but most of the anti-tobacco people are unaware of that. >> the store yucel runs with his daughter struggles to sell pipes nowadays. they manage to make ends meet selling jewelry made from meerschaum. and meanwhile, cheap rival products manufactured from meerschaum chips are making life even more difficult -- as the government looks on, or rather the other way: >> sadly, pipe smoking is
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decreasi. but we hope we can at least exportur carvepipes as corativebjects, d art. but for that we need support from the government. >> meerschaum carver yucel gave u such hopes some time ago. just outside eskisehir are the pits where the valuable mineral is mined heretoo, busess has owed to a fraion of i former capaci. on now andgain do workers descend into the ramshackle shafts 25 meters underground. all in all a sad sight for burhan yucel. >> you won't find a stone like it anywhere else in the world. old customers om the us have told me there's meerschaum in
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kenya as well, but that it's not as white as in turkey. >> for 200 years meerschaum from eskisehir was considered a decent alternative to ivory. but as both the mineshafts and workshops close down, pipes crafted from the "white gold" from turkey are likely to die out after burhan yucel. as we head into summer, many of us are planning holidays abroad whether it be a city break, a trip to the countryside or a visit to the coast. but tourists are shying away from europe this year. and in particular, belgium. in the aftermath of the terrorist bombings that took place in the capital, brussels, travellers are afraid it could happen again. this fear has left many of belgium's most popular destinations, like the stunning beaches near ostende deserted. belgium's coastline along the north sea is 65 kilometers long.
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the seaside resorts are small but they are the region's most important source of income. drawing some 28 million hotel reservations and 17 million daytrippers, it's usually the most touristy part of the country. but the recent terrorist attacks triggered fear that the industry could face financial losses. half an hour away is picturesque bruges. it's usually a tourist magnet. but the carriage drivers have nothing to do at the moment. they've never seen their city so empty during this season. >> no, we've never had this kind of a standstill. there's hardly anything happening. >> it's been very calm since the attacks. it's very noticeable that people are staying away from bruges and the whole of belgium. reporter: bruges has a problem, and not only bruges. there have been thousands of cancellations since the terrorist attacks. from all over the world. >> our guests ncome from
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britain, from the us, from japan, even from australia, and china. they've been frightened off by what happened and are staying away for now. reporter: over 12,000 jobs in brussels are in the hotel sector, thousands and thousands more depend on the wider tourism industry. the few visitors who are here at the moment aren't necessarily interested in tourist knick knacks. yousef zideian is feeling the pinch. he's been drawing on the grand place for 18 years. and he is not the only one. reporter: i heard from my friends, which is the horsemen here, flower sellers, or many shops and restaurants around, i know i have many friends which have restaurants and they said they have much much more less
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people. >> according to the hotel association, reservations have fallen by between 30 and 40 percent. not only because of fear. since the attacks, brussels airport, belgium's biggest airport, has not been functioning at full capacity. the post-attack consequences are like aftershocks all over the country. in bruges, it's mainly overseas visitors who are staying away. >> now we're sometimes going out with only two people. usually the boats are full and there are queues. but that's not the case at all now. reporter: those who do make it to bruges can enjoy the city without masses of tourists. even if they can't quite forget about terrorism. >> terrorists are everywhere in the world you see and these attacks can happen anywhere so i'm not scared of them, the
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motor for them is to scare us. i'm not scared. >> there's a european study which says that after an attack, the situation returns to normal within six weeks. we hope that we'll soon be welcoming many tourists again with open arms. >> bruges would like to see more tourists braving their fears. and so would the rest of belgium. voters in britain are about to make a decision that has the -- michelle: voters in britain are about to make a decision that has the potential to affect the lives of millions across europe. next month they go to the polls on whether to remain a member of the european union. some experts fear that if the uk chooses to leave, the decision could begin the process of unraveling the eu. othemember cntries mht me forwa with spial demas that cld weakethe coherence the blo yet thmore immiate efft coulbe the bak-up ofhe united kgdom itsf. while lls in eland shothat the upcong vote ll be cle, majorityf votersn scotlandlike bagpe maker
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alanaldron, el closeies to the continent and want to stay in the eu. reporter: african blackwood from tanzania. alan only uses the best for his bagpipes. he makes scotland's most famous instrument in his workshop. painstaking work for tradition's sake. >> i want to be scottish within europe. the concept of britishness isn't a really good thing for me. >> alan not only feels connected to the continent of europe in emotional terms but also for business reasons. his workshop is in the small central town of stirling. but most of his customers are from other more far-flung parts of europe. a third of his bagpipes go to germany and france. he's a bit worried about the upcoming eu referendum in the united kingdom.
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>> for my business it would be a lot of headache, the administrative, the hours i would have to put in for extra sales of things which go to the european union countries, it would be really problematic. >> alan is one of many scots who want to stay in the eu. according to polls, two-thirds of the country do. in many ways, scotland is different from england further south. much of the population is more socially-minded. much of it wants little to do with the elites in westminster. >> some people would say that there's a tradition in scotland of greater engagement with the continent. for centuries, france was scotland's ally against england and some people say that that basic worldview still remains in scotland to some extent. >> two years ago, scottish voters opted against independence from the united kingdom in a referendum. the head of the scotish national
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party who had led the "yes" campaign stepped down. but his successor nicola sturgeon has been rising in the ratings ever since. proud and self-confident, she's also been flexing her muscles in the eu debate. her party is currently very pro-eu. >> if scotland were to vote in favor of eu membership and the rest of the uk were to vote to leave it, if scotland in other words were to be outvoted, then there is a real chance that that could lead to a second referendum. >> many people still hanker after independence, so the upcoming eu referendum could be a means of bringing the subject back to the table. not all scots want independence. this group feels more connected to the united kingdom than to the eu. the right-wing populist ukip party and labour have joined forces to call on scottish voters to leave the european union.
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but it's not always easy to convince people on the street. >> what's going to evolve from this stage to the next? have you got a set agenda, and a plan or a structure or an identity to bring forward?" >> there's a lot of mystery with the future of the european union. no-one can predict the future, they can plan for it, for everything. but i don't think the current situation in the european union is what was expected 10 years ago. for example, britain has looked after itself and has been a democracy for hundreds of years. >> harking back to the past, if the future is unpredictable? there are lots of ifs and buts at the moment. if the united kingdom leaves the eu, will scotland really leave the united kingdom? al voted ifavor ofcottish indendence t years a. hetill wan it toda and he alsoefinitely wants scotland
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to remain part of the eu. should the uk end its membership in the european union? let us know what you think about that or any of today's stories by getting in touch on facebook, email or twitter. stripped of all the trappings of modern life from electricity and running water to supermarkets, could you survive? a group of people in poland, called preppers, think they could. these survivalists hoard food, water and supplies, so as to be prepared for impending disaster. some say that the country's tumultuous history has left the fear of catastrophe deeply rooted in the polish psyche. now, as social anxiety grows over terrorism or war with russia, survival courses have become more popular than ever. katarzyna mikulska leads a little troupe away from
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civilization and into the wilderness. >> by the oak tree back there. that's a good spot! reporter a good spot to learn : how to survive 5 days in the woods. 100 people wanted to take the course, but there were a limited number of places. first off they build a hut, almost entirly without tools. they learn what to do when disaster strikes and they have to flee. >> in our survival training, we show people how to get along without anything, without electricity, gas, our belongings, or food. the danger can strike at any moment. reporter: every prepper knows that birch bark burns very easily. there are survivalists all over
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the world, but the scene is particularly active in poland. that's partly because the country's history is full of catastrophes: it was partitioned three times, invaded by the germans at the start of world war ii, and later ruled by the soviets. that's left its mark on the polish psyche. this is home to urban prepper konrad operacz. he always has a stockpile of food. if he uses something he replaces it right away, like his grandma did in the post-war era. he dries meat and stores 50 liters of water in his flat. he's not surprised poland has so many preers. >> it's typical for poles. we've experienced so many terrible things and expect the wot to hapn at anyime. history can repeat itself. and today we have refugees from syria and eastern europe. anything can happen. reporter preppers are always : taking about terrorism and the many muslim migrants who could potentially flood into poland. though that seems quite
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irrational, as poland has hardly taken in any. operacz is an it specialist who maintains a company's computer systems, but preparing for disasters is his true calling. when disaster strikes, he knows that the first 72 hours are crucial. he's worked out several evacuation routes and hidden two survival kits along each one. >> right on top there's a map with the route and strategically important points. there are certain staging areas that we all know. who knows, we might have to spend three nights here. we have ((02:47)) bandages and a bright red garbage bag so we can show where we are or leave traces behind. reporter adolf kudlinski is : completely self-sufficient. he's proud of his independence and his abode. it's huge and boasts lots of
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storage space underground. here we have sausages dating from 1995. but i bet if we opened them up they'd still taste good. >> kudlinski became a prepper after the chernobyl nuclear disaster. he's been hoarding food ever since. >> i have more containers here. i'm a little crazier than polish preference. 50 people could survive on my farm for a year and a half. reporter: he leaves nothing to chance. some seem to be cure all. >> this one here helps with gastric disorders, lowers blood pressure and combats depression, too.
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reporter: back at the survival camp no one's had time to become depressed. they've been too busy, fashioning their own kitchen utensils. the last day of training has finally arrived. it gets pretty cold here at night and trainees only get to eat what they can scavenge in the forest. >> i learned that your hunger diminishes. eating once a day is actually enough. reporter many preppers are : secretive about their activities, but not these ones. they're proud and eager to show off their survival skills. other would-be preppers will have to wait -- these courses are booked up far in advance. mitchell: we are eager to hear your views. for now, it is goodbye for me and the whole team. see you next time. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit]
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carolinmiranda:o many outside, culturin los angeles is something that begins and ends with the movies, but the city has always been home to radical voices and new ideas that have stirred things up in art, in literature, in architecture and urban life. in recent years, the city's artistic profile has grown bigger and brighter with new cultural institutions, new approaches to art, and new ways of thinking about the landscape. join me as we hit some of the city's most important cultural nerve centers. i'm carolina miranda, culture writer for the "los angeles times," and this is "artbound." woman: los angeles is an infinitelsp


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