tv Quadriga - The International Talk Show LINKTV May 28, 2016 2:00pm-3:01pm PDT
>> welcome to this latest edition of "quadriga." this week, we are talking about developments in turkey among fears that president tayyip one-manis creating a state. the german chancellor has been in istanbul, expressing what she calls s her deep concern about turkey''s commitment to democracy. in the meanwhile, the rest of europe are increasingly dependent on erdogan.
as the turkish leader has threatened to scrap a deal about migrants. the topic, is erdogan our friend? to discuss the question, i am excellentthree observers. beginning with maximilian popp who is a turkey expert. he says the refefugee deaeal is wrong. refugees of their rights. also with us is andreas kluth of the economist and he believes the only thing worse than sticking to the deal is not sticking with the deal. turkish journalist.
i'd lilike to be in with you. i'd like to begin with ongoing merkel's visit to istanbul -- angela merkel's visit to the stumble. she spoke to members of civil society. i wonder what impact those kind of initiatives have in turkey? is anybody listening? deger: i have seen almost no article on the meeting about civil society. host: censorship? deger: i guess the press wasn't invited to the press conference. she wanted to get the message to the german media. a colleague of ours wrote an article where merkel said it is not up to her to fight for democracy in turkey. it is the duty of the turkish
people to do that. course, it is important and it was expected from the pro-eu circles in turkey that that eu politicians would do something to support them. it is not merkel who is going to change turkish politics. meetingiscussed at that and welcome that she at least met civil society members. host: what do you say about that? people get angry when erdogan intervenes in german politics. maximilian: i don't to get would help the turks much. i don't think an intervention from the german chancellor wilil change t the humuman rights situation. no intervention in the past is going -- pleaded at t her in the past -- no intervention in the better.de it tha
you see people getting uncomfortable with merkel being so quiet about human righghts violations. host: when people feel that discomfort, it is because a lot of politicians have been saying mr. erdogan has autocratic ambitions. do you share that view? andreas: i think there are tendencies, definitely. i feel uncomfortable myself about the discomfort of the people when we speak about turkey. we care so much about like the way merkel talks to erdogan. we talk so much about the question about whether merkel is in the hands of erdogan. but we talk about too little is
the situation of the refugees and the consequences the deal has for refugees. doubleuffel standards -- standards. when we talk about president erdogan, people in germany 10 to act as if he is a despot. what is his perspective? rdogan? andreas: in a few senses he reminds me of vladimir putin to read even characters in german domestic politics. his relationship, his view on us in germany, over the past year is i think he felt hurt and humiliated. like a child almost, psychologically, that is how i view him. as putinin as well.
he felt rejected it and he feels it is up to himself that he can take revenge. specifically when angela merkel iname chancellor, she -- contrast to her predecessor, she gave turkey the cold shoulder. in rejecting their ambition to join the eu. was notcorrect, erdogan an autumn on autocratic want to autocrat wannabe that he is today. part of the explanation is as simple as that. host: we are talking about whether erdogan is a friend of germany's. whether he should be. whether we should be engaging in the refugee deal. what you make of that analysis? deger: i agree.
turkey, when you look at and the eu, the reform process started in 1999, there was a consensus between different groups and ideologies. goal. was a common you had less dispute. erdogan came into power in that time. they all agreed on the common goals. it was a huge mistake by merkel, i guess, when we look at that time now. i don't think erdogan forgives her. we know he feels betrayed. he is disappointed and doesn't trust merkel. we can see that merkel knows it because of the statement she made lately. words, deepes some
discussions based on confidence. words,u elaborate on the that means there is a lack of confidence. she is trying to explain she is open to discussion. post: when we talk about turkish membership in the eu, there is a critic that says turkey is pretending. the eu is pretending. is that a fair a analysis? it is a missed a chance. if we look back to these days, decisionfrom now, t the of m merkel at 2005 4 2006 to tn away from turkey, to only s spek about this prprivileged papartnership, we will remembert as one of the crucial
foreign-policy mistakes of her chancellorship. t: let's go back to turkey itself. the country is coming under pressure from the president. >> the presidential system is a request. to the systemse the country finds itself in. anyone who doesn't agree is going to pay the price. when the ousted prime minister grew to independent -- too independent, erdogan showed him the door and replaced him with a more loyal lieutenant. he has also taken a hard line
with the opposition. opponents have been stripped of parliamentary immunity. erdogan use all kurdish politicians as terrorists. the turkish press is forced to remain silent. u up in court. is turkey on the road to dictatorship? host: is a question we have to talk about. you have been on the s show oftn have reflected on this. is he moving towards becoming a dictator? andreas: i think he is. the word dictator comes from rome. i wrote an essay on how populism, which also originated in rome, produces little caesars. he is one of the people we see a lot of. trump would like to be a little
caesar if he could. it is part of a trend. after his perceived rejection, he decided like prudent to turn away from the west that rejected eo-ottoman,ld a n regain a certain standining. just asng in the past, putin removes opponents. that has always meant you were trying to become a dictator. the question is how far his society will let him. host: the prime minister was recently forced to resign. tell me what that tells us about turkey, about mr. erdogan. maximilian: the performance was not that bad. he was a loyalist. host: he had become too
prominent? maximilian: and maybe too successful. it was right after the eu announced the visa liberalization was on track that he was removed. this was like the biggest success in his whole foreign-policycy carareer. a few w hours after that, , he s out. int shows there is no place turkish politics for a second man next to mr. erdogan. host: perhaps a one-man stateten the making. at the beginning of the short report, there was an trysting statement -- interesting said the from erdogan situation demands the of a presidential system. what situation and might he be talking about? deger: he usually talks about,
you know terror threats. he talks a lot about terror. it is really well-known, eu bashing. western bashing. rhetoriric that we know. you talk to people in turkey, you ask questions. yeah, the westerners. they don't want us to live peacefully. they support terror. it doesn't just count what what theays, i it counts party members communicate. there is a fear in society that turkey is left alone. yes, turkey is left alone and isolated. lots ofst of --
intellectuals have been calling on europe to send a signal. when is enough enough? the red line i think has been crossed. even before the refugee deal.. the developments are disturbing. whether it wowould help to officialally announced a redline. we saw what that meant in syria when obama declared a redline. i'm not sure how much they help in politics. before, the troubling the toolsor europe, to intervene in turkey, to put pressure on the turkish government are very little. they are in a position where they can only watch. theeas: i agree and i think talk about red lines in this
conflict is naive. redline and then what? what would you propose the west do? he finds himself in a difficult neighborhood. what is he trying to do? i find it shortsighted. i think he is driven more by psychology than strategic thinking. where is he trying to take turkey? i think he would like to bececoe the suntoman leader of ni world. but he is picking fights with everyone. to become the powerful person he wants to be, he has to find a lie somewhere. -- allies somewhere. that.not doining i see there is a limit to his ambition at some point. host: turkey very isolated, lost a lot of friends. have any dialogue
with any other leader other than merkel. host: that is the ironic point. alternative?s the if you definepenn redlines? i don't think that is a solution to anything. i read an article on the policy related to russia. it is a selective engagement. when you look at what is going on between turkey and the eu, it is selective engagement. to be realistic, turkey and they u are cooperating in fields where they have common interests and nothing else. andreas: what else would one do? doing businesst with turkey.
-- we are doing business with turkey, the refugee dealal maximilian, you have called it a farce. maximilian: we are doing dirty deals. the problem is the refugees have toto pay the price. the highest price is paid by the refugees. that is more the fault of the europeans than turkey. it was promised, and promoted, the deal was promised and promoted as something that would create an alternative to illegal migration. the refugees wouldn't have to step on the boats anymore and crossed the edgy and -- cross the aegean. so far, there have been a few people resettled. already, there is trouble.
this is already the maximum number we can reach. this is not a credible, realistic alternative to illegal migration. the deal right now is outsourcing the responsibility for refugees to another country. europe has done that in the past. in libya. they are now doing it withh sudan. they are repeating the same thing with turkey. host: meanwhile, we are listening to what next million has to say, the german government has been arguing there is no alternative to the refugee deal. is that really true? rder external board an agency is patrolling the eastern mediterranean heavily. closed.an route is fences are a determinant. the eu is considering plans to
give funds to greece. that could help the greek government set up a functioning infrastructure to provide adequately for the influx of migrants. asylum applications could be processed at these new hotspots and applicants who are turned it down could be returned to their home countries from greece. u stilill need a refugegee deal with turkey? question. maximilian says the deal is a farce. you said, the only thing worse then sticking to the deal is not sticking to it. andreas: at heart, the deal we have does represent outsourcing thee problem to that country jut outside our borders. host: out of sight and out of
mind. andreas: however, what is the alternative? outsourcing it to another member of the eu which is having a different crisis, greece. the mysystic pressure, she e got herself out for the time being because of something she did not want which was a solution that the balkan states shut their borders. that dried up the refugee flows. there was a spectre they would all congregate on greece. esbos and other islands would become refugeeee camps. she said, what is the next best option in ththis real world? the only way she had, the only thing she had was to do a deal with turkey. sharelian: i still don't
this view. i'm troubled by the fact that we the saying that there are only two options. the europe offensive and the turkey deal. there is a third option, follow our laws. the european constitution, the german constitution, they state refugees have the right to apply for asylum. please, let's go back to this and work on a third way. solutions asese solutions. there must be another. andreas: the law is a problem. the quote is you can apply in europe, the first country get to. if you enforce the law, you return the problem to those countries in crisis.
maximilian: that t is a regeguln that you has to work on. it cannot be changed inin a wayt means no more refugees in europe. that is denying any responsibility. host: the refugee deal, what is the alternative? what is the best way to move forward? deger: i don't think there is an alternative. if the deal fails, it would have tremendous consequences on turkey germany relations. also, turkey would get more unpredictable than it is now. i fear the consequences. i don't think there is an alternative right now but i agree there should be alternatives respecting huhuman rights.. respecting refugee rights. at the look at it bilateral level between turkey eu, itmany and thae will work with changes.
october forit until the visa liberalization. both sides have accepted it. o erdogan willl put forward his own interests. merkel will do the same with her political ambitions. she will focus and elaborate on her ambitions. we will watch a very tense negotiations. they will talk, they will continue to talk. the tension will remain. andreas: we will have interesting timing.
theboat is berg -- interesting question is, let's say he does scuttle the deal. what will be refugees do then? they go where they expect success. whatat will their r next route ? everyone is looking for that. that is what is going to make the summer unstable. sober analysis. erdogan and autocrat? the way he governs the country is autocratic. host: should we be doing business? we do discuss with autocrats, i have no problem with that. we have to set up a deal with refugees. give me your vision, your idea of where german turkish
relations are likely to go in the next couple of years. there are summoning people here in germany, good people with roots in turkey. is one of theis dramas we dodon't talk about muh right now. it is why i agree, if the deal fafails, the consequences wiwile bad. because i think this is one of the last chances those two countries, the eu and also german turkish relations, they have. mistrust will the be even bigger and i think dark times ahead. host: dark times ahead. thank you. we have given you plenty of food for thought on relations between germany and rkey. come back next week. bye-bye.
passions are running high. the country is stuffed in an economic crisis so the government wants to push through economic reforms. but many fear that means eroding workers rights. for months now, nelly rallies have been held -- nightly rallies have been held in paris. they are not simply all young evil with romantic ideas of revolution. some of the participants have very concrete reasons. reporter: re: spent nine hours cleaning apartments. despite that, she is here. she has been coming here for weeks for the social movement, arise at night. she brought up for children on her own. now she barely manages to keep yourself above water with her cleaning job. she is fighting for justice, even within the protest movement.
course i don't completely agree with what's been said. >> what is at stake is the continuation of this movement. without the evening general assemblies, it will lose its impact. people won't come. reporter: for him i came to paris two years ago. some of her employers let her stay overnight and shower. she can't afford to rent a place of her own. >> i have very precarious jobs. 30 hours with one client, 20 with another or even only 10. that doesn't look good if you want to find a place to rent. that is why nobody is accepting my application. reporter: fahima usually lives in this swat, where there's no electricity or hot water.
the other squatters don't like her much. some semester windows and kicked in her door. >> the squatters on to the middle class. they have lawyers. they know the procedures. but they do everything to marginalize the ones that are in the most precarious situation, the poor people, because they are scared of them. reporter:fahima was lucky that she has friends who support her and were able to lend her money to repair her windows at her door. the others in the building refused to talk to us. >> your clowns. you can tell just by looking at you. your approach, though a look, you listen to go and do your clowning elsewhere, please. thank you. have a nice day.
reporter: famihima continues her struggle for those who have a struggle letter. summer students. -- some are students. some have barricaded themselves in a trade union been living -- union building. fahima thinks this is a bad idea. >> the general assembly is taking place over there. we are starting ourselves from the movement. >> we need more structure. we need all these ideas to make sure something emerges. people the knowledge themselves on day. it is about being on time. >> sometimes i can come earlier. sometimes a common afternoon. reporter: fahima is angry.
she says the country is run by the country leads come even within the movement. >> we need a framework to talk. they think they are still at school. they spent too much time there did -- and do not want to leave. they need a bench in a chair. otherwise, they are lost. reporter: on one side of the square are students under the site is a soup kitchen. those in the queue are mainly immigrants. she hopes the movement will bring about more social justice in france and says that it has already triggered an important interest in politics. >> people have left their homes, burst their bubble, overcome their fears, their -- they have a voice and they are try to
do something. so there is hope. reporter: fahmia has long been on the bottom rung of the social ladder. she is ready to resist. whether the others wanted or not, she is ready to keep speaking out on social justice. anchor: in fact, protests are continuing oliver france. the demonstrators say they will weaken workers rights. what do you think ? the biggest challenge facing europe is how to do with the enormous influx of refugees and how to stop people risking their lives try to cross the mediterranean from africa. over the past year, the eu has been deployed warships. their main mission is to track down traffickers and destroy the votes they use. but critics say it could be making things worse.
reporter: the german military vessel gets ready to rescue another group of refugees. a a rubber thing a c crowded wih peop hasas come fromom the libyn coasast and is nowow in distres. one at a timime, they are askedo board the boat. the entire operation takes two hours. most of the refugees are from africa. they are exhausted and many arae traumatitized. for the first time in months, they are safe. for r now at least. the paramedics on board the ship now been to work. christina and her colleagues give the refugees a quick memedical checkup, measuring the heart rate and temperature. the goal is only to determine if anyone needs urgent medical attention.
>> i responded quite nerve-racking before hand. what sicknesses they have. it's always a surprise. reporter: but the ship is actually here as part of a european combat operationon. it is one of five naval vessels charged with finding the traffickerss, arresting them, ad destroroying their votes. but in recent mons, the germans haven't seen a single trafficker. >> i think this plan n s drawn upup before it was known how the traffifickers would react. when we have learned is that they are actually able to adada. at the start of f our mission, they were accompanying the refugee e boats until ththey wee outside the libyan waters. but when they discovered there were military vessels here, they stopped coming out.
reporter called as a result, the navy can only rescue those who have been trafficked but never sees the traffickers themselves. the refugees are given blankets, water and food. since the operation began a year ago, the military has rescued around 14,000 people. today, the frankfurt has pickedd up over 3500 people. they started during the night and have been out on the water for over 10 hours. thisis group is from senegal. >> i was so afraid. the boat was rocking from side to side and spinning. some people fell out and had to climb back in. reporter: the e mission is being coordidinated by an aircraft carrier. the commander says the problem is that the ships are only allowed to patrol in international waters. he would like to expanand the mandates right up to the libyan coast. >> in that condition, we will be
able to control the movement of the s smugglers and to interact anand prevent them from being active at sea. reporter: the frankfurt takes the refugees to sicily. during the trip, crew members k the refugees about the smugugglers. they find that the smugglers are using the naval vessels as part of the business. >> they told us come in soon as we were in international waters, we would be picked up. reporter: christine is just relieved that there are no serious injuries among this group of refugees. even though she knows that traffickers are using the military, she believes the mission is still worthwhile. >> passing s ships are always requireded to pick up anynyone n distress. and that is what thehey are doi. i think they are better r than that, but they are trying anyway. reporter: christine's d deploymt on the franknkfurt will in shortly.
but she will leaeave with a good feeling, knowing that the number of refugees has been cut in half since the patrols began. dan: for those of us were bridges, the story right now is the referendum over whether to stay in the european union or not. that is because many british people have become disillusioned with the eu. right now, the pulse are so tight that it is difficult to predict who will win. but not all europeans are becoming euro skeptic. in slovenia, many are all too aware of the benefits. >reporter: a celebrated bass baritone will be performing in his home village. anan w wt better venue than t idyllic church overlooking the village in eastern slovenia. joseph is in charge of his
village's arts program. the arts center has been recently. revamped. >> we could never have done it just with local funding. . the village council would not have agreed to have our money agreed exclusively on the cultural center. that's why the subsidies are so vital. reporter: in addition to the library, the village now has a concert hall, a modern theater, and a cinema. because the mayor apply for all manner of eu funding. >> we have already made a lot of public buildings energy efficient. and now it is the library's turn. it will cost a little over 100,000 euros, most of which will be covered by the eu. >> he has been busy making the
most of the new opportunities t -- opportunities and funds made available ever since slovenia joined the eu. cutting-edge money-saving technology. russell's covered most of the construction costs. although -- brussels covered most of the construction costs. >> it was really difficult. mainly because of the slovenian government, not the eu. there isis a bit too much dedemocracy, but we accomplished it with a bit of determination and persistence. reporter: and the village is still battling for further assistance. it has joined forces with five other villages to launch a water supply system. part of f the funding they need was prpromised by the slovenian government.
but with a country still not fully recovered from the economic crisis, the money has been not -- has not been made available. >> yes, the villagers had to put up the final installment from our budget. and now we have an audit to deal with. but we hope the issue will be resolved soon. reporter: weddings s are alwaysa sign o of optimism. and people also believe their marriage with europe is a happy one. slovenia as a whole still appears eager to play the model soon roll, well behaved and eager to impress. most people in the country are impressed to be in the eu. not that they have forgotten when times were tough here. just five years ago, the village was language in -- was like pushing under high unemployment
-- was languishing under high unemployment and few opportunities. >> it can't be perfect. but a lot of things are better. >> there's a lot of renovation work. the new mayor is more active. >> yes, it's good. but eventually, we will have to pay it all back. reporter: he has been telling farmers in his cooperative to not become codependent on cheap loans from brussels and to be competent in their own potential. farmers largely produce milk, meat and wine. they have made substantial investments so far successfully. >> modernization is ok. but we can't farm the way we did 30 or 50 years ago. neither do we have to immediately match levels of germany, for example.
moderation is the best strategy. reporter: that seems to be paying off for the residence here. big supporters of the eu and not solely for a pragmatic reasons. there are further plans approa,f course. at sunset, the church fills with villagers for the concert. it is a village with a bright future. danny: the joys of the eu is that something you hear much about these days. the first time i went to the portuguese capital lisbon, i was bowled over by how beautiful the city is. it is hard to believe it was recently plagued by a devastating heroin epidemic. nearly 70% of the population was addicted to it. in 2001, the governments of
drastic and controversial action rather than, clampdown on drugs, they decriminalized them and decided to treat folks on heroin rather than punishing them. we have been talking to those affected. reporter: every morning at 10:00, the van from the state run program stops in this district. heroin addicts can get methadone for free. possession of up to two grams of heroin is legal in portugal, but many want to give up. >> my dose, please. reporter: ricardo follows at the methadone with lots of water. he used to live e in the u.s. ad that is where he started using heroin. he was a dealer and nearly went to prison but was deported back to portugal instead. >> to me, it was a blessing because i got separated from my family and everything but i never would have gone out of the prison system there. i would be on drugs and in and out of prison.
reporter: one of the poorest cities in europe introduced one of the most liberal policies. addicts are treated not as criminals, but a sick people needing help. >> this project is aimed at minimizing the risks. we work on the streets. that m makes it easier for us to reach people. every day, we are at five different locations in lisbon. reporter: they look forward to their that i -- that addicts don't have to hide anymore. >> people who take drugs look for places where they can
consume them safely. places like this whole year -- hole here. there are still no projects for assisted drug taking because the government hasn't had the courage to introduce that yet. but i think we need to talk about it very seriously. reporter: since the 1990's, there has been a recurring public debate in portugal over how to deal with the country's drug problem. arsina works for the portuguese drug ministry. >> we had politicians whose children and relatives had a drug problem. we had doctors, journalists and lawyers who were affected by it. perhaps that is why it was introduced, decriminalized drug consumption, because all levels of society was affected by it. reporter: today, portugal only
has three deaths from drug overdose per one million inhabitants. that is way below the eu average of 7.3 deaths. social workers help heroin addicts on the street. >> we try to have a good relationship with all of them so they can say the truth to us. >> is there anyone there? reporter: soria and andrea exchange new syringes for old ones. in 2014, the figure dropped to 4%. >> do you want more? l >> yes and i've got more here. reporter: the state doesn't force the addicts to come off drugs.
but if they want to get clean, they can receive help anytime. dan: one of the things that i loved about living in london in the 1990's was the club scene. today, things are very different. many of the clubs i remember have closed it down. that is partly because of rising rents. but also because young people in britain just seem to be going tonight labs -- nightclubs -- going to nightclubs less. the financial pressures are greater. they. would rather spend more time on the careers rather than on the dance floor. that doesn't mean people are not going out. instead, they are making useful contacts. a members club is back in vogue. reporter: it really does it get any more british than this. the royal overseas league is a private members club that was founded over 100 years ago.
>> the clubs express the british soul in a way because they are very traditional and british people are very traditional and have a strong sense of history. and also, a club is somewhere that defines your class to some extent. and there nothing a british person likes more than defining their class. reporter: perspective -- prospective members have to be proposed by existing members. many young people want to become members. for example, jackie. >> one thing with london that one has to learn is that it can be quite a lonely place. club, while it is exclusive in his ways, it has a clubhouse and is a membership base. it is a community. reporter: you can read the paper, take afternoon tea or just chat.
the calm atmosphere is far removed from the hectic world outside. >> the digital revolution has changed everything. the job market is uncertain. somewhere like a club, you know what to expect. it has been the same for hundreds of years. it is unlikely to change for the next. a sense of roots and belonging as well as lots of wine and good food. reporter: but something is changing. just a few blocks away, there is another private members club. ththe hospital club is a self-proclaimed center for london's creative community. designers, writers, musicians, actors, producers meet here to go to exhibitions and concerts or to eat and work. the have been members for two years.
>> taking meetings with some distributors or actors a want to take them to a nice environment. you want to make them feel you are not in a small office in the middle of nowhere. because london is really expensive. so you have a nice central london location to meet people. reporter: many members use the club as their office. so the annual membership fee, which is equivalent to, a thousand euros makes sound business sense. >> for me, the main value is that, for the same price of an office for a month in central london, i paid that for a year to be a member here. it is really amazing value for the money. reporter: the building houses workspaces, editing suites and even a tv studio. but it's the networking that counts. >> you can talk to anybody. sometimes you're in a lift and you're talking to some in you find out they are the head of a massive corporation. and sometimes links are made
like that. >> new private members club's are quite different in many ways. they feel like a bar or a restaurant. they are more commercialized. people go there to work more openly with their computers, go on their phones perhaps in thehe club. but what they have in common is that they are exclusive. in order to get in, you need to be a member. and that i think is attractivee to a lot of people. reporter: modern or traditional, a private members club remembered -- remains unexcused of domain for like-minded people who can afford to b bong. danny: back in my day, members clubs would not have done well. the idea of exclusivity was not looked at well at all. do feel free to get in touch in a time with your thoughts and comments. goodbye from me and i look forward to seeing you next week. same time, same place.
miranda: to many outsiders, culture in los angeles is something that begins and ends with the movies, but the city has alwayays been home to radicl voices and new ideas that have stirred things up, in art, in literature, in architecture, and urban life. in recent years,s, the city's artistic profile has grown bigger and brighter withth new cultutural institututions, new approaches o art, and new ways of thinking about the landscape.e. join me s we hit some of the city's most important cultural nerve centers. i'm carolina miranda, culture writer for the "los angeles times," and thihis is "artbound." woman: los angeles is an infinitely inspiring city. it feels like you u can just exploe