tv Quadriga - The International Talk Show LINKTV June 30, 2016 7:00pm-7:31pm PDT
>> hello. a very warm welcome indeed to "quadriga" where this week we are talking about what else, brexit the vote by the british people to leave the european union. now,ast week's referendum has sent shock waves out across the world and the u.k. is in disarray. the country needs a new prime minister and could be facing the prospect of an early election. the e.u. is also reeling among the many big questions being asked, will other member countries now follow the british example? so our question here today on
quadriga is after the brexit, after the brexit shock, what next? i've got three seasoned observers and analysts here in the studio to discuss that question with me. we have the director of the european democracy lab who says the brexit is a wakeup call and we have to start thinking about a very different europe in parliamentary terms, democratic terms, and social terms. lso with us today is andreas klust of economist magazine believing the e.u. should first strike for a lenient and gracious deal that keeps britain close to the continent and second reform itself in a hurry. welcome too, keep calm and carry on. england made a mistake but now both sides should work hard to avoid this turning into a disaster. my first question has to be how can you possibly expect anybody to keep calm in this situation of huge uncertainty?
towell, i think the i issue is reduce uncertainty now and that means if you take the referendum s a victim which couldn't be returned to partnership or e.u. membership for england you have to deal with the referendum, with the outcocome, and have to try to come as fast as possible to negotiations to deal in terms of economic issues, t trade issues, security issues, and migration issues. >> that all sounds very sane and sensible but there are huge worries out there. you know, the u.k. could unravel. e.u. could collapse. u.k. could plunge into recession. we heard president obama coming out and saying the british vote raises longer-term concerns about global growth. what's the biggest worry? >> i think the biggest worry is about growth and stability of the financial markets and about security.
>> she is saying be calm, stay calm, relax. it's all going to be fine. >> i couldn't say all is fine. but try to make it. >> i understand. stay calm. >> no, i think stay calm, obviously we stay calm but stay calm to think and to think better and make a better europe. i think this is really the wakeup call and unfortunately what nobody seems to be doing. because yesterday it was basically said the question for the brits, as if you coululd punish a peoeople which sounds absurd and then thehere is no space for really creative, new reflection. i think this is really the wakeup call of what is happening because what we can see first is that the u.k. is not alone. we had a similar situation in austria. we have a divided people.e. let me say that sentence. the british wanted to play a strong national part against the european union. what they earned now is basically the implosion of the british nation. that might be the wakeup p callo
reconsider the way we frame and think about europe and let's be reminded that the foundnding fathers of europe, what did they say europe is to overcome the nation state? what we see is that basically now with the scottish question and all that in place we need to reconsider the very question, who is the sovereign of europe? who is the sovereign in the european democracy? we should answer that question very calm without hurry but with strong reflection. >> andreas? >> well, i don't disagree with anything that's been said. first of all, i am going to try to keep calm. i have been panicking for about a week now. so that's enough panic. as far as uncertainty yes we'd like to reduce it but it is all uncertain and will be for a while. we have to keep calm amid that. that is just life too. i looked up where the phrase keep calm and carry on comes from. it comes from a war time poster as the bombs were already falling.
>> just instruction for the worst case. >> right. brits were telling their own people keep calm and carry on. now, clearly there is so much to say. i mean, the fact that boris johnson just said he's not even going to attempt to become prime minister now to me proves how irresponsible he was throughout and he is, symbolizes the entire irresponsible movement that they didn't even mean it and i think they regret what they did. that they all saw that they created a tone and a media disinformation campaign that they now regret. i'm h hoping calmness prevails eventually and in the house of commons this week it was -- it already came up. some members of parliament said we are still a parliamentary democracy not a direct democracy. and for this reason the founding fathers of america decide, you know, james madison, alexander hamilton said direct democracy
is the road to hell. therefore you have a representative democracy. i think the way to legitimate exit from brexit would be to call an election, all the parties in britain wouldld haveo sort themselves out because they're in chaos. that's part of the uncertainty. but have a general election and make that the issue and then have thehe parliament that represents the people make the decision. at the moment the department doesn't want to exit it. >> that would just bring more uncertainty for the upcoming months. i think you have to admit there has been a referendum. there has been a decision. what europe has to do is come to a decision. can there be a way out, what would be the way out. what if the government would just call for an election a and afterwards not accept the referendum?
when you talk about acceptance i want to come back. you're from the economist magazine and they wrote something i thought was very interesting. they called the outcome of the british referendum a senseless and self-inflicted blow. i thought it was a very interesting use of language. it seems to suggest that the british people when we're talking about acceptance were almost duped. and the question is then, duped by whom? > well, i think i alluded to it. they weren't served well by the media and by weak and even bad and irresponsible leaders and i want to stay on brexit but i have written in the past in california about how direct democracy has almost destroyed that state. in ancient history it destroyed athens and then led to a war they regretted. direct democracy. james madison and alexander hamilton had a lot of quotes about mobs cannot be trusted. when the emotions prevail and
you force complex issues that no one understood and still understands to a binary question you can --. >> it can't be -- you have to decide what -- whom to believe it. >> i agree. i see this and trump among other things, i see brexit as ultimately a revolt against perceived elitism. this would further that narrative. that is a cosost and i understa that. i'm saying you are choosing between bad options now. i am still hoping, it is my least bad option would be to exit from brerexit. if we can't then i'll accept it with you. i'm ready right now to talk about what then. i'm ready to accept it. there is still a glimmer of hope. >> you've been very patient. >> i think that andreas is right because basically the -- let's just say this. basically in all democracies we
have a 2/3 majority for really strategic decisions and that is a constitutional decision which normally in all democracy a very is now rity -- half complaining and so forth so there is reason to put into place this option of perhaps .aving a new campaign so if the parties come up with a strong leader who would say exit from brexit in a way. let't's go deeper into what is stake here. this also points to the fact that if we want to have a wakeup call and learn lessons from what happened, in a way we do not want to ignore people i do not want to ignore people. i just want to function. in a way we need to respect some of the points said when the campaigning was i am not in control in the european union,
if in essence, right, the european union has a democracy in which you have no parliamentary rite of initiative, you do not control decisions by the people. it is not a government by the people but for the people which is the flaw of the european union and i would argue even the economists trashed the european constitution in n a prorominent issue so the media were also basically criticizing the european union and now do the so-called pop list because the system, the european system is not taking that very serious that we need to reform the -- or europe in a parliamentarian way. >> before we come back to all that and we will, i just want to rewind a little bit and go back to the actual election in the u.k., itself. young british voters were the focus of much attention before the vote. e.u.voted to remain in the by a large margin.
turnout was low. let's begin in london to hear what they are saying. >> we are an internatitional ci and i am really proud of that. it might not be the cais in 10 years. >> i have a law degree with account anssi -- those are things i recognize and say i was to go in practice in frank furtwengler or paris those qualifications may no longer be recognized. >> i'm not happy. this isn't going to do our generation any good. we'll have to live with this the rest of our lives. >> getting investment now i presume will be quite difficult. >> i'd like to say it's the older generation and it's really unfair what you've done to the younger people. we feel really let down by the older generation. we've grown up as europeans and having the freedom and now it's taken away from us by people who won't have to live with the consequences as much as we have to.
>> andreas, you're nodding. young people there are saying -- >> very emotional and very moving. >> they feel let down. >> that was very moving. nobody could say it better, more eloquently than the lady at the end. >> what they are talking about is a sense of exclusion that is the heart of i think the european moment. part of the reason why the e.u. lost this vote effectively. >> not only this. and you wanted to defend a nation you run for an i irish passport it adds to sort of the future concept of what a nation is. if something is exploded today then the british nation all against the young as we saw, a rule against urban city of london, against scotland and vice versa so it brings me back to that point of serenity. if we want to reorganize europe based on whahat these youngster have said we need a functioning european democracy to take people serious when they say we need a say in the system and then you care for r europe. this is one of the lessons
learned as she said it in your little movie which is we have grown up european and we need to organize how we live together in a system which is no longer shaped by national states meaning a european council and the european system. >> well, i think if they would have been, up to the time they had gone voting, the reality is the use, the british use -- they didn't sign up --. >> privileged british youth, winners, and the british kids, the youngsters who have been left behind. >> if you would ask all over europe, young people, how do they stand for the european values. how do they think about the european union you would have a
divided situation. the well educated young people who go to the universities who are part of the programs, they would all be in favor of europe and say t that is our reality a our identity. if you look at the less educated young people, if you look at other perspectives, they didn't even recognize that there are europeans. that is right. but this can only happen because basically what we do see is the same split between the losers and winners of globalization. if you happen to be a young person in the country side, you have a high chance to be a loser of -- then you believe the international story because the story tells you you would win in the national story. it is still fiction it would help you but it is sad that we do not educate these people better. >> if you call for a referendum you have to respect the whole
population. >> i respect this. i am just claiming that, i mean, first we have the data. data for instance the workers of north england, ya? what is happening is they will be losing in relative terms much more from not being in the single market than the city of london. the city of london can go offshore, whatever, but the english workers will not survive and despite that fact they voted u.k. because they were told that they would win. there is the slogans. they don't have the answers. that has much to do with losers of globalization which are simply not educated enough to understand the complexity. therefore you have these results. it is pitiful. i agree you would have a better use which is standing up for the future. >> the populace might not have the answers but they have the momentum. more and more people across europe are turning to empty e.u.
parties. what should be the response from brussels? >> this is possibly the time, so far we've been talking about the british isles but what should the e.u. do? we all agree and everyone says the e.u. must reform itself. hat does that mean, however? my worry is you have at least two camps who are diametrically opposed to what they think that means. in german politician among the social democrats as opposed to angela merkel's party they are aligning themselves with the federalists in france and brussels and saying, well, now then the remaining club must get even closer together, deepening it is called sometimes, integration --. >> mantra of the ever closer -- >> now the brits are gone. therefore let's -- they're wrong. >> they do not buy into that or accept that. they reject it. >> exactly. i think that would further or
exacerbate the trend you just asked me about which is it would drive even more euro skepticism in these countries including france. where antieuropean feeling is very high. >> then you answer with the very old sentence. it needs to be set. the problem of the current discussions we only offer more integration of the same or exit. and the real task is how to think europe differently. to answer the question of a serenity, different kind of parliament, and to go beyond the shaping of the discussion with nation states because this is at the origin of the brexit disaster, at the origin of the dutch disaster. let's move out a little bit. it is not only the brits which are the problem. it is because the e.u. is flawed. we have the same sort of referendum with the dutch a couple weeks ago when they had to vote over in e.u., ukraine secession agreement which is completely absurd because why should only dutch people vote over an agreement with the
ukraine? we need to move out of that national framing in the discussions we want on a european level and that comes to the very fact that nations are not sovereign. we need to understand this. people are sovereign. you organize a new european democracy around the serenity of people and not nation states. >> but that will not happen. if you want your way, you will need a referendum in france to do that to, just because we should reframe the treaties weefment should come to new agreements. for new agreements you need a referendum. you need one in ireland. you need one in france. probably one in the netherlands. >> one referendum in all european countries --. >> you can't have a referendum on that in germany because it is not in the constitution. if you respect -- >> good point. the european pect
reality you have to look at the situation we are in. even if you say europe only makes progress in crisis that may be true. we can't -- we are experiencing constitutional meltdown. that is actually happening in front of our eyes in the u.k. because, you please, the scotts want to enter and so forth. this is basically constitutional melt down. the real question is we are not stuck in a system, the systems are never stuck. we do not know this. we do not know. nobody knows. the only thing now is we are in a cata clism where the time will come that we need to rethink the system because the system may not survive. >> we need to take a break from
the conversation. we are in a very, very difficult and troubled passage in the history of the european union and the history of the united kingdom. some people think brexit decision is an opportunity. let's get an angle on that first. >> politics in europe have grown interesting. a positive aspect of the debate that led up to the brexit was although the topic was divisive it also demanded commitment. believevers and remainers fough passionately for what they thought was right and it helped revitalize democratic culture in europe and has reawakened enthusme for the e.u. among many citizens. are antie.u. parties stronger now or weaker? euro skeptics like marie la penn from france's national front are buoyant but it could undermine populist movements in the long run. britain has been plunged into
economic chaos and that could scare vote earsway from parties that want similar referendums. the e.u. is pulling together. britain has always had a unique position in the e.u. successive governments didn't want the euro but did demand special privileges. with britain out of the picture it will be easier to reach consensus in the union. could the brexit actually strengthen the e.u. in the long run? >> cot brexit strengthen the e.u.? i i don't think so. england is leaving. it is a european power is leaving. scotland is joining with its problems. so the economimic power, everythingng is a loss for euro. so europe will not be winning at all.
what may be happening is that think and we aree thinking euroe cocould includude -- why do we or think to need that close nion in terms of political integratn in terms of france e not only economic but social integration? if you ask yourself why didid w think so, that was alwayss the case becausese it couldn't be managed otherwise. it was always the p problem how could you manage economic social things without just going closer together? and nowadays we do have a lot of opportunities because the management capacityies enlarge a lot. >> what i worry about also in our debate is one side of people who want to save the e.u. is going off into yet another debate about the structures, the
institutions, and i think -- >> where should they be going? >> they should not be going there. i think because it's, it was always abstract. people never understood it. people actually had no interest, the people in north england where you come from that voted for brexit neff bothered to understand what the council as opposed to the commission and the institution with the court and the euro group, no. i think what he seems to think is do less and do it better. pick two or three things where the e.u. can cooperate and make it clear and a visible and immediate effect in people's lives and don't get bogged down in the weeds of this other crap frankly. those things must be things as they mentioned the right ones. security. we're afraid of terrorism. let's cooperate there. let's cooperate on closingng or cocontrolling the borders aroun that is a big part of this anxiety.
possibly some new push to create growth so people out of jobs in the southern countries don't go off to the wrong side there. create fewer losers from globalization. so three simple things. don't worry about the carve chur of cucumbers and all the stuff they made fun of. >> the thing is that the european union failed because it was not about politics. now we have a trans national market and currency and we need to include a trans national democracy. it is a simple thing about basics and what the founding fathers of europe were claiming since the 1940's which if we need to have a trans national democracy. this has much to do with who is the sovereign, not the nation states but sovereign. not the european council which is basically playing national cop all over the place. if you say people don't care that don't understand i agree but they do not understand the council and the parliament because the system is not clear.
if you want good politics we need to fix the engine room. >> what is the structure you're proposing? ?> what are you proposing all this corporation talk hasn't worked for 25 years. we tried to do corporations on terror. we never did. where would you like the e.u. to be in a year's time? >> i would like us to be more pragmatic and down to earth and not just trying a new national state even larger than the ones we have. >> i am not saying this. >> okay. we have to leave it there. thank you very, very much for a wonderful discussion. i hope we've given you plenty of food for thought. thanks so much for joining us here on quadriga. do get in touch by social media or mail. we love to hear from you. until next week, bye-bye. ñ;úcúcñ
[applause] nalini nadkarni: thanks. we bioneers hover at an epic moment of environmental destruction and environmental healing. we've come to this amazing conference in san raphael to seek truth, truth that will lead to the visions and actions that we need for that healing. i believe that that truth may be found in trees. trees actually represent many truths. as a scientist, trees are known as a perennial woody plant having a main trunk and a distinct crown. to o a poet, a tree literally