tv The Ed Show MSNBC February 24, 2012 5:00pm-6:00pm PST
back then and did it first, here are a couple words of tribute. hail caesar. one virginia republican lawmaker makes a sexist joke about state-sponsored rape. you will see the tape exclusively in the entirety right here. this is "the ed show," let's get to work. 62% of the kids who go to college with the faith commitment leave without it. >> rick santorum cite as bogus study makes a stunning charge against president obama. >> i understand why barack obama wants to send every kid to college because they are indoctrination mills. >> franklin graham is warning christians voting for obama is
compromising their faith. barry lynn has reaction. in the best example yet men don't understand women's health the war on women in virginia takes an ugly turn. >> trans-v this and trans-v that. >> women's activist lizz winstead and now's terry o'neill is here. >> i drive amu mustang and pick up. >> mitt romney blunders through his speech. >> outrage in chicago continues over school closings. rahm emanuel is dismissing protest as noise. the reverend jesse jackson is here to respond. thanks for watching. the attacks keep coming on president obama from the right wing culture warrors led by rick
santorum. last week the former senator of pennsylvania accused the president of the united states of having a phony theology. last night, he took it to a new level in an interview with psycho talker glen beck. he combined attacks on public education with his attacks on the president's faith. he lumped them together in one big giant sound bite of crazy. >> 62% of the kids who go in college with the faith commitment leave without it. >> um-hmm. >> i understand why barack obama wants to send every kid to college. >> oh, yeah. >> they are indoctrination mills. absolutely. and i floated the idea and am trying to figure out how we can make it work of somehow or another requiring colleges and universities who receive public dollars to have intellectual diversity. the indoctrination at university level --
>> they are hiding behind tenure. >> santorum things university educated students are a harm to our economy and country. this may be the most radical conspiracy theory we have ever seen from a presidential candidate. rick santorum is staying the president wants your kid to go to school and lose his or her faith, the connection with god. he's basing his indoctrination argument on a bogus survey. he says 62% of college students lose their religion? he is quoting a survey from the cardinal newman society the catholic group that led the failed effort to stop president obama from speaking at notre dame university in 2009. of course the expert on bogus analysis is on the board of directors of that society. rick santorum relies on false information to push his obama bashing anti-university conspiracy theory. it isn't the first time he's
mentioned it. he went on the attack as soon as president obama said this in the state of the union address. >> higher education can't be a luxury, it is an economic imperative that every family in america should be able to afford. >> the day after the state of the union santorum gave his interpretation what the president meant when he said all americans should be able to afford college. >> no wonder president obama wants everyone to go to college. the indoctrination is one of the keys to the left holding and maintaining power in america. i bet you there are people in the room who give mon nae to colleges and universities undermining the very principles of our country every single day by indoctrinating kids in left wing ideology. stop giving them money. >> i had no idea morehead state screwed me up so bad. santorum's level of absurdity puts michele bachmann to shame.
president obama is talking about shared sacrifice, everybody gets a fair shot in america, where is that country, advocating workers rights, civil rights, equal rights, trying to revive the middle class. important part of reviving the middle class is access to quality education, everybody gets a fair shot. rick santorum thinks the president wants your kids to go to college because they will be indoctrinated against faith. he commanded his supporters to stop donating to universities. he argued that he should be the republican nominee because he represents the best contrast with president obama. for once, i agree with him. please, michigan, please vote for this guy. i want santorum to win because i want to see the debate between the president of the united states who thinks everyone should get a fair shot and rick santorum who is against your kid getting a college education. get your cell phones out can
tonight's question, do you think president obama is trying to indoctrinate your college-age children? text a for yes, b for no, to 622639. go to our blog at ed.msnbc.com. we'll bring you the results later in the show. we're joined tonight by reverend barry lynn, executive director of americans united. reverend good to have you with us tonight. >> nice to be here. >> maybe i'm interpreting this wrong, i don't think i am, but rick santorum is condemning our university system across the country saying that they are the e pitome of moral rot. >> that is about as out of the main stream you can get and be out of the water. this is based on false information. even in the polls that say there are kids and there always have been kids that go to college and then it's not they lose their faith, they just don't become as
engaged in church-related activities as they might have been when their mom and dad were forcing them to do those activities. one thing we know from the barner group, most respected evangelical polling group is that when young people go to colleges, they learn about science and they tend, therefore, in many cases no longer to take the bible literally. they learn science, they were not taught science in home schooling which rick santorum did for his own kids. the other thing is they learned to live with other people, including gay and lesbian students, they don't hate them anymore. university education is about debate, dialogue, discussion, it is not this fantasy world where somebody is trying to indoctrinate your children. that is completely false and as far as the undermining faith connecting it to higher education, you get to a point you have to say rick santorum apparently doesn't want kids to think at all because maybe that
will make them more docile and can't tell truth from the falsity. >> he's saying the president of the united states wants people to be indoctrinated and wants to take people away from their faith. i find that absoluteoutrageous. does his type of rhetoric work with any religious group in the country or any time of believer out there? >> there are people who hate universities, they hate critical thinking. that is the idea you balance certain issues against one another, you make thoughtful decisions, because they are afraid that if you start to think critically, you might not believe everything you hear like from the very right wing politicians that they hope you vote for. and i'll tell you i was at the national religious broadcasters convention when i joined from you nashville, there are a lot of people there sitting in those seats when i was having a debate about hate speech on campuses,
who didn't seem worried about hate speech at all, but they are worrying about the fringe issue, barack obama taking away religious freedom. barack obama has not taken away anybody's religious freedom. that may be more their methodology, it's not the truth. but there is an audience that is very receptive, the religious right never died, it's still 21% of the american electorate and when the pundits said after barack obama was elected we got rid of those people, no, i'm glad there were folks still fighting this ideology because it's non-sensical but would lead, if they would implement it to very, very dumb, unprepared students and that is the last thing we need. >> rick santorum is not the only one out there that is attacking president obama on religion. franklin graham, he's out there again, back out questioning president obama's faith.
here he is on radio today. >> i'm asked, you know, if the president is a christian. i don't know, i mean he says he is so i guess he is and that's what he says. but at the same time, tony, there are the policies of the president and the administration that go against god's teaching and that is abortion. the bible is very clear on this, and i cannot support the president or vote for him because of his support for abortion and same sex marriage. for a candidate to actually oppose god's standard and then to vote for that person, you are compromising, you are joining in with them. >> reverend, is he telling christians they are compromising their values if they vote for president obama? what are your thoughts on this? >> i think he's taken it one step further. he's saying look, if you see sin and you in any way cooperate, this is another long-standing decades-long argument, if you
vote for a candidate who doesn't see the world as a religious matter exactly as you do, you are in fact violating god's law. i got to make this clear, ed, the trifecta of untruths there. number one, the bible doesn't mention abortion for example. that what is that comment was about. second, the book of exodus says if you cause the loss of a fetus, it's not murder and third, even if those things were true, we have a constitution in the united states of america, it's not based on christian thought, it's not based on islamic thought, it's based on commonly shared values that all americans ought to accept. so it's more bogus stuff, franklin graham, piling on with rick santorum, piling on with newt gingrich, who of course doesn't like the court system, thinks there is a war on religion as does mitt romney. it's all nonsense. >> you put all these stories together, reverend, you have this story, the attack on the
president's faith, the indoctrination when it comes to the talk of education, not funding education, the attack on women's health care, the attack on workers, the separation of income in america, it's amazing what is unfolding in the country right now. there has never been a more important election in this country. reverend, great to have you with us tonight always appreciate you coming on the program. thanks so much. answer tonight's question gs share your thoughts on twitter, we want to know what you think. next, one republican lawmaker in virginia that mocks the very legislation his party tried to ram through. we've got the video that you simply will not want to miss and we'll play it in the entirety. lizz winstead and terry o'neill will weigh in. republicans in the heartland, they want the poorest to pay more money while the rich get the big tax cuts. frank thomas will tell us what is the matter with kansas. [ male announcer ] this is lawn ranger -- eden prairie, minnesota. in here,
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coming up, the republican war on women's health, believe it or not, gets cranked up a notch. the shocking lockerroom talk of virginia republicans will be exposed for the first time, next. mitt romney kicked off the next phase of his campaign in a nearly empty football stadium, i'll show you romney missing wide right. the attack on poor schools in chicago, i find absolutely appalling, and america is talking about it. jesse jackson is here he said it's educational apartheid. we're right back. [ man ] i loved my first car... sometimes the door gets stuck... oh sure. ooh! [ man ] ...and then, i didn't. um... [ sighs ] [ man ] so, i got a car i can love a really, really long time. [ male announcer ] for the road ahead, the all-new subaru impreza. ♪ experience love that lasts.
we realize there was different kinds of ultrasounds. what i recommended to the general assembly they adopted the other day is let's make the requirement for the abdominal ultrasound. >> that was virginia governor bob mcdonnell, still trying to dig his way out of a political mess over women's health care. mcdonnell originally supported a bill that would require women seeking abortion to undergo a highly invasive trans-vaginal ultrasound. no exceptions, even in the case of rape and incest. after pressure, the governor caved and asked lawmakers to remove the requirement from the bill. republican delegate dave albo wrote the bill's compromise. albo's compromise requires a less invasive but mandatory external ultrasound to be performed. this has been a very divisive and extremely personal battle on women's health care across this
country. and in the midst, in the very midst of this highly charged and emotional debate, albo, mr. compromise, took to the floor of the virginia legislature and turned the idea of state-sponsored rape in a punchline. >> the gentleman from alex san dree yeah apologized, but he owes an apology to me. because let me tell you what happened. on tuesday, after our contentious session, i went home, wanted to go see my kid and my wife. so i drove back home, i got home in time to see my boy, read him a story, put him to bed. and went down stairs to relax in the living room and my house, i have big, giant screen tv like 46 inch, probably as big as that. so, i say you know what i'm really rich, yeah. so i thought wow, the boy is in
than me. got my theme music going, i start flipping through the channels. through the channels you have to get through the stuff, all of a sudden comes this big thing and a picture of a bill that has albo on it. i went wow, holy smokes, my name as big as a wall. the very next scene was the gentleman from alex san dree yeah's face going trans-v, trans-v this and trans-v that an they hate women, we didn't go far enough. goes on and on and on. and i'm like -- the show is over and she goes "i got to go to bed." [ laughter ]
so if the gentleman's plan was to make sure there was one less republican in this world, he did it. i expect an apology from you later. in person on the house floor. >> well, it's the good old boys club, isn't it? in virginia, women's health care sp reduced to a joke. it underscores the fight women have in this country in 2012. let's bring in the president of the national organization for women, terry o'neill and co-creator of the daily show, lizz winstead, author of "lizz free or die." lizz, your reaction? >> the boy's club tone was completely shocking. the man couldn't even say
trans-vaginal. this is this invasive procedure that even mcdonnell said would probably violate the fourth amendment, he can't say it. they look like men-boys. like children who have no idea the ramifications of what they are legislating or any of it. dplchlt what about the attitude, the free willing attitude like it's no big deal for women? >> that what is it fees like it's a joke, the trans-this and on the big tv, now my wife won't have sex with me. are you kidding me? this goes on in the virginia legislature in. >> terry o'neill, what does this signature to women across the country about the attitude some lawmakers have? >> we have work to do. the word is vagina, his state sponsored rape law required a trans-vaginal probe and trans-vaginal ultrasound.
his so-called come rpromise is violation of women's rights. the fourth amendment? search and seizure? the law would have sponsored what have forced doctors to perform a rape, penetration without consent, that is how the fbi defines rape, that is what it would have been. and the compromise is very important to understand. governor mcdonnell i don't think we should have an invasive procedure as a requirement before another procedure can be done, but governor mcdonnell is fully in support of a medically unnecessary very costly non-consensual procedure as a legal requirement to be done before a woman can have an abortion which by the way abortion is still legal in the country and governor mcdonnell was way off base. >> terry, how gross was that what you saw on tape?
>> it was really gross. gee, i don't want to say the word vagina, i just want to control women's reproductive lives, what they do with their own reproductive lives. it's offensive and it shows that we have an awful lot of work to do to remove delegates like this gentleman from the virginia legislature, certainly to remove governor mcdonnell and across the country to remove these extreme right wing ideologues, playing politics with women health or think it's okay to deprive women of health care. >> this week seven republican state attorney's general filed suit challenging the obama administration on the birth control policy, they claim the policy violates the first amendment, legal experts ait's a political stunt. lizz, what is your response? >> scalia said it 20 years ago,
not everything that offends your religious beliefs is necessarily unconstitutional. this isn't asking one particular group or singling out one particular group it's saying you have to comply with everybody. and so it's a big -- again, a big waste of taxpayers money on the backs of women begging for dignity because they happen to be sexual beings. >> next week the senate will be voting on the blunt amendment which will be put in of all places the transportation bill, and the democrats are are saying bring it on. this is a political fight they definitely want and right now women's reproductive organs in the country are the biggest political football out there and become a joke on the legislative floor in the state of virginia. i find it absolutely amazing. terry o'neill, lizz winstead thank you for joining us. appreciate your help. mitt romney gave a speech in a football stadium today, the
result was a fumble not a touchdown. later, a surprise announcement from bill maher, we have the tape you don't want to miss. you're watching "the ed show" on msnbc, we'll be right back. ♪ [ kareem ] i was fascinated by balsa wood airplanes since i was a kid. [ mike ] i always wondered how did an airplane get in the air. at ge aviation, we build jet engines. we lift people up off the ground to 35 thousand feet. these engines are built by hand with very precise assembly techniques. [ mike ] it's gonna fly people around the world.
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the stadium seats 80,000 people. only problem? he had 1000 people in the crowd. the campaign couldn't even fill all the chairs in the audience. the speech was overshadowed by images like this. romney's campaign, they should have learned a lesson from the obama campaign in 2008. if you want to have a campaign speech in sports arena, fill the dog gone place up like the obama camp did four years ago this month in hartford, connecticut. also in madison, wisconsin. and also in cincinnati, ohio. romney tried to make light of the stadium blunder during his speech. >> i want to thank the folks at the ford field for making this space availableable for us. i guess we had a hard time finding a large enough place to meet, this certainly is. >> they are just overly optimistic. organizers say the secret service won't let romney give the speech at a smaller location within ford field.
romney only has himself to blame for putting his foot in his mouth once again. >> i like the fact most of the cars i see are detroit made automobiles. i drive a mustang and pick up truck. anne drives a couple cadillacs, actually. >> that is kind of h his way of supporting the automobile loan? the guy with at least four family cars, really knows how to relit to the working folk of america, huh in he makes gaffes when he goes off script. but the things he says on script caused hundreds of auto workers to protest the speech outside the stadium. romney was bad mouthing the auto workers union from the football field. >> in my view, the industry got in trouble because the uaw asked for too much, management gave too much, made other mistakes, and the government cafe standards hurt domestic automakers and provided a benefit to some of the foreign automakers. >> how in the heck could that have happened on the heels of
eight years of bush? an electrician, stacie stuart. what is your reaction to mitt romney handled the automobile loan? >> it is very disheartening, almost a joke at this point now. he's trying to back pedal and make himself sound good, it was all his idea, that obama did everything he said. no, obama did the opposite of what he said. now he wants to get credit for the loans working for us and no, all the credit goes to president obama. >> why were you protesting today? >> can you repeat that, i'm sorry. >> why were you protesting today, why did you feel the need to protest and go out there? >> i'm taking it personal. i'm taking it very personal, my job was jeopardized, i was on a long, lengthy year-and-a-half layoff before the bail outs
happened and after the loans were given to chrysler and gm i went back to work like a week-and-a-half later. i didn't know if i had a future coming and i do and here is someone from michigan, a politician, dogged the auto industry, dogged the american auto industries and union, it's like he's cursing us out, the american people, we pay very good taxes, why would you not want me to go back to work when i'm playing large taxes. >> are you offended at how he portrayed the unions today? >> i am very offended. i don't know what gm, chrysler, ford plant he has been in lately for him to say the unions are running the company i'm in a plant five or six days a week, that is not the way it is. the unions are protecting us, we're not taking money under the table like he tries to put it and adding extra cost.
we took away costs from the cars. >> s thfthank you for joining u "the ed show." the michigan and arizona primaries are coming up tuesday, we'll have full coverage here on msnbc. let's turn to wdtw radio host, my friend tony trupiano, good to see you again. >> a pleasure, been too long. >> it has been. what happened there today? what is the mood of the people going in tuesday, toward romney and santorum? >> well, what happened today the american union worker, organized labor led by the uaw stood up to corporate mall fee sans, it was empowering to be with these folks. we often talk about our military heros. one of the things i've recognized we have another kind of hero in america and that is an industrial hero. people that work for the auto
industry and related fields, ed, have sacrificed, get this, get this, between 7 and $30,000 a year in under these new contracts to keep the american manufacturing system growing strong, ed. this isn't just about the out industry. it was empowering. >> how is president barack obama being received in michigan right now, this is an important state for him. >> it's clear that this state loves him. i'm not going to say he has nothing to worry about, he takes everything seriously, everything in the way he should, he understands that what he's done is not -- have been is not going to accept it wholesale. the one thing we know that happened in the last 14 months or so as the economy is beginning to rebound, as michigan is beginning to grow, the president visited us in the
last six months, seven or eight times. he understands the critical nature of what is happening here and i don't want to make this sound just about michigan and the uaw and organized labor, but at some level what is happening here is an outgrowth of what meeds to happen all over the country. i think the president recognizes the success of what's going on in michigan is something that should and will happen all over the country. >> is the cadillac comment going to be a problem for mitt romney, what he said today? >> absolutely. just shows how arrogant he is, you said in your introduction, he fumbled the ball today, the political football today. our lions thank god have been playing better ball, they are not fumbling much. >> i knew you would get a plug in for the lions. >> i had to, ed. but let's remind people even the players association has themselves a strong union. so the president is doing well,
listen, this is a good time to be a progressive radio talk show host as you well know, ed. >> tony, great to have you with us, thank you so much. tony trupiano with us from detroit. now you want to take our education away. >> teachers and students are under attack in chicago. schools are being shut down, and the mayor is just shrugging it off. the reverend jesse jackson is here to respond. in the heart of america, republicans want to increase taxes on the 99%. and give the 1% a massive tax break. thomas frank is here to tell you what's the matter with kansas. i would like to tonight announce a donation to the obama super pac. >> bill maher joins the super pac donors club. writing a huge check, we'll have the latest. ♪ ♪ you and me and the big old tree ♪
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welcome back to "the ed show." let ee go to the middle of the country. in kansas, more than half a million people make less than $25,000 a year. but republicans want them to pay more in taxes and the wealthiest members of the state to get a nice fat tax cut. you got it, kansas house republicans want to pass a plan raising taxes on the lowest income residents by $72. people making more than $250,000 would see a tax cut of $1500. republican governor sam brownback and former senator has his own tax proposal on the table. it's worse. the poorest kansas residences would pay $156 more each year, and the people at the top will pay $5200 less. democratic state senator anthony hinsley said i call throb in had no reverse. in my 36 years in kansas politics i have never seen anything like this and anything as regressive.
let's bring in harper's magazine columnist thomas frank, author of "what's the matter with kansas" his latest book is called "pity the billionaire" mr. frank, good to have you with us tonight. >> hey, ed. >> you wrote your book about the people of kansas voting against their own interests eight years ago and it was a smashing hit, it opened a lot of of eyes and a lot of people were saying yeah, that's right. why doesn't this message get across? here we go again in the middle of the country. >> isn't that -- that's the big question, isn't it? you should know i'm not making fun -- the idea of the book wasn't to make fun of people from kansas, i'm from kansas myself. it's to talk about the culture i grew up in, and the funny thing is, not funny, everything there has gotten worse and worse and worse and worse since i wrote the book. why doesn't the message get through? ed, that is the great question
of our time. maybe if i had my own tv network, i don't know. >> why would any state think it's okay to raise taxes on the poorest people and cut them for the rich right now, the richest? >> they probably weren't -- i doubt they were trying to sell it that way. i mean the whole point of guys like sam brownback and the rest of the kansas republican crew is two things. first of of all the culture wars, okay? sam brownback is a man when he was in washington d.c. talked on and on about how values are much more important than material issues and we shouldn't have sort of material worldly ambitions. he wanted to measure at one point gross domestic piety, he wanted to have an objective measurement of how pious we were as a nation. that is the kind of politician he was, when they do something like this of course who he serve
is mammon. the parties they serve is the local business community, cut the guys taxes and lift the burden from them in any way they can. and at the same time they also if they have a way to somehow stick it to somebody else so they don't run the state too deeply in the hole, they will do it. so what they propose is to simultaneously cut taxes on the wealthy in kansas, and then take away the earned income tax credit which is something that helps out people who earn less. >> and how much does this have to do with the group called alec. american legislative elected council, are they operating in kansas? >> yeah, they were when i wrote "what's the matter with kansas" they're very big players there h. among the sort of republican members of the legislature. i don't know about this
particular effort but it sure wouldn't surprise me. but this would take, if these plans pass, it would take disposable income away from those who need it the most, when you have half a million people in the state that make less than $25,000 a year and they want to raise taxes. >> remember, those are the people who would spend it immediately, okay? one of the funnier in a black humor sense, the funnier parts of the story, at some point two months ago they brought art laugher to topeka, he came up with the idea if you cut taxes, you'll actually miraculously increase revenue to the government. so you don't need to worry about deficits. this is what allowed the reagan administration and the bush, jr., administration to run those massive deficits by cutting tacks because everybody knew it didn't matter. the curve get you off the hook. they brought him to topeka to give his blessings to this idea.
up next, bill maher puts his money where his mouth is. in the big finish, reverend jesse jackson will shine a light on the plight of the suffering chicago public schools. is what they're doing really hurting the poor? don't forget to tweet us using #edshow, we're right back. [ johan ] hello, piper. nice up-do.
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year that they have been running for president, i've come away with a revelation. there is no bottom. >> welcome back to "the ed show." that was comedian bill maher. with the republicans swim flg money maher decided to help the president out and give him a financial boost. take a look. >> i would like to announce a donation to the obama super pac which has the name priority usa action. i know it was named by borat. but tonight i would like to give that pac one million dollars. >> pretty amazing. next story, he called it educational apartheid, jesse jackson, the reverend joins me on chicago's school disaster. stay with us.
it's a very dangerous model in my opinion. it will happen all over the country if we don't watch out. chooim mayor rahm emanuel declined to join us tonight but here is part of his statement. i understand the real anxieties that come with change but i also know nothing is more disheartening for a child than being stuck in a failing school. by investing in principals who are accountable and tachers who are committed, we have seen our children succeed, doubling average test scores, gains in our turn-around schools. under the plan, six schools will close or be phased out. ten schools will go in so-called turnaround. let's bring in the president of the rainbow push coalition reverend jesse jackson from chicago. reverend, i've spoken with you on this you've called it educational apartheid. what is wrong with this and how serious is it? >> i wish the mayor would be on
the so we could discuss the matter. there are 150 schools in the city, 160 don't have a library. black, brown and poor educational apartheid. the neighborhood schools are outperforming the turnaround schools. you close down the public schools put extra money for a private charter or turnaround school and there are factors operating like something called poverty, where in the schools 90% of the kids are on free lunch program, so this kind of quick fix turnaround is a very expensive problem, it's not working. >> well, it seems to be unfair to the teachers, you can't tell me there are 600 teachers in chicago that are terrible all in one spot and need to be shut down and they happen to come from impoverished neighborhoods.
>> ed, you have 25% of the african american teachers law is up 50%, half of them are tar getted to leave the school system or be fired, which is a kind of cultural disconnect. they are taking out choirs. whitney houston came out of school and choir, jennifer hudson, you cut out music, art, this is not a healthy program. >> the mayor of chicago, rahm emanuel, quoted martin luther king saying he was driven by the fierce urgency of now. what do you think martin luther king would say about chicago today? >> he came to chicago on the issue of public education, equal high quality public education for all. within the city you have the payton high and down the street
you have a set of schools at a very low investment. the poorer the schools are the less investment. so you have a funding -- investment gap in the schools and in the suburbs there is an investment gap. they take the same test, some score higher, lower. 17,000 children in this city are homeless. you have to take into account poverty and race but smaller classrooms, with better instruction, and food and reading glasses and dental care. these things matter. >> i want to ask you this as well. are you considering a civil rights lawsuit? >> we are going to, we would rather more engage with the mayor, the only district in the state that has an appointed school board, so the board is accountab accountable. we want a school board that
happens in every other district, to engage parents in the process. second piece because we have the disparities in economic investment and in the race, this is a classic civil right case. we're going appeal to the department of justice and the department of education to consider filing a major civil rights case for equal protection in chicago. that is not much to ask, we want equal protection and one set of rules. >> were some of the schools deliberately starved for necessary resources to go elsewhere? >> the data shows poor performing schools less likely to get funds. you induce them leaving. you close the schools down, what pops up next? a private school in the walls bit for a public school. subsidizing the private schools turn around at the mom in not. sometimes they work, often times there is a thing called a change -- >> an issue of fairness and