tv The Last Word MSNBC April 2, 2012 7:00pm-8:00pm PDT
immediately and michigan you are so epic this year. we are reporting the story fully and we will have the full story 0 in coming days. now it is time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. have a great night. president obama has a huge lead over. and the latest developments this the killing of trayvon martin. trayvon martin's parents will join me. >> i'm doing this for god and trayvon. >> the family of slain teen trayvon martin is renewing calls for federal involvement to investigate the police department and the state attorney's office. >> the fbi goes to the scene. >> fbi agents are now on the location where the shooting took place. they are conducting what's being called a parallel investigation. >> they are investigating a
possible civil rights violation. >> the feds can certainly step in and file charges here. >> experts saying the boy's heard calling for help on those 911 tapes. >> they believe it's not zimmerman. >> demands for justice are only growing louder. >> we need to judge this, judge the evidence in a court of law. >> is in the week the 2012 general election begins? >> it is now game on in terms of the general election. >> mitt romney tries to close the deal. >> will he finally seal the deal? >> i think governor romney is a little out of touch. >> in swing states, barack obama is leading. among women, president obama is crushing romney. >> the president taped a video for planned parenthood. >> when some professional plixs say they will get rid of planned parenthood. >> professional politicians a kx a mitt romney. >> planned parenthood going to
get rid of that. going to get rid of that. >> mitt romney is a clown and i want to stand next to him. >> as new details emerge in the killing of trayvon martin, the fbi is out, in force, publicly investigating the incident, at least four agents and clearly marked fbi shirts went door to door at the scene today. apparently looking for potential witnesses. a bureau official confirmed to nbc news that agents from the tampa field office had begun their parallel investigation in to the case, specifically focusing on whether trayvon martin's civil rights were violated when he was shot to death by george zimmerman. the official said agents are seeking information on zimmerman's background and whether he was racial ly motivated when he pursued trayvon martin. we now have a fire department audio from the night of the shooting cancelling an ambulance that was en route to the scene
for george zimmerman referred to in the audio as the second patient. >> you can cancel second rescue patient. in the audio you can hear dispatchers saying a second ambulance was not needed to go to the scene and as you can hear rescue workers asking, they are asking for a medical helicopter for trayvon martin. >> contact air care and ask them to respond. >> we are on the line with air care. air care not available. >> in what could be one of the most important developments in the case, two forensic voice identification experts say the cry for help on the 911 call, on the night of the shooting, was not the voice of george zimmerman. joining me now are tom owen, forensics expert and chairman emeritus of the american board
of recorded evidence and ed -- an audio engineer and forensics expert. first tom, to you, tell me what you established and how you established it with these audiotapes. >> well, lawrence, i attempted to do a comparison of a known voice being zimmerman and an unknown voice being the person who was screaming. i manipulated the tapes in such a way where i took out everyone else, in other words the 911 controller, the background noise, anybody else or any other noises other than the voice itself. then i compared the two together in a biometric program called easy voice biometrics and that was able to discriminate the difference between the two and come to a conclusion of whether it was or it was not zimmerman. >> and the only thing that you could achieve here, tom, is whether or not it was zimmerman.
you don't have a way of determining whether it was trayvon martin. >> that's correct. i had no samples of trayvon martin's voice to compare against. >> you need to compare audio to audio. what ed, what method did you reach to if come to the same conclusion. >> i listened to the 911 recordings and listened critical listening skills that i have developed over the last 28 years of my career. the voice is like a symphony and used my skills to determine what i have already declared. >> ed, you are using an old-fashioned piano tuner's method, the human ear, highly tuned and trained for distinctions. tom, the test you have run, would they be admissible in court? >> yes. i have already testified and admitted this software and
methodologistology in the state of connecticut. a murder trial involving a 911 call. >> and ed, what is your level of satisfaction with your finding? are you 99% certain, 70% certain? >> i'm in the 90s lawrence. i would love to have an exact kpamp lar of mr. zimmerman's voice to compare to those screams and i could come up with some stein tisk evidence to prove whether it is or is not his voice at that point. >> let me go to the other controversial element of the tape, of what zimmerman's own 911 call, where he uses potentially a racial slur. some people hear it. some people don't. ed, first you. what do you believe he said? >> lawrence, i'm hearing it pretty clear. i've listened to it and i've walked away from it and listened it to again. i'm not comfortable repeating
what i am hearing but it is -- >> it is that racial slur fing and then the racial slur for black people. >> tom owen, on that point, do you have a finding on what he was saying at that sgloint i was not asked to make any finding but i will attempt to do that and that will come out in the near future. >> okay. just to clarify. to go forward, would it be helpful for you to have a tape of trayvon martin's voice and what kind of tape would work? would a voice mail or something like that be usable so that you could try to use your systems for determining whether that is his voice that we are hearing crying for help? >> in cases like this, lawrence, in cases like this i would love to be able to review as much family archive video footage as possible and find a section of trayvon's voice in an elevated
mood like playing a video game perhaps or being at a party in a high spirit or laughing or yelling across the room. that's the type of energy that's behind the voice that's very fearful on that call and calling for help. >> tom, quickly before we go, if this case goes to trial, would you expect the defense to hire their own audio expert to make a countercase about what is on that audiotape? >> i think both sides will hire their own experts. >> thank you for joining me tonight. ed primeau and tom owen, audio experts who have listened to those tapes. >> thank you very much. >> joining me is charles blow from the "new york times." this is the kind of thing we have been wondering from the start. i think all of us listening to the screaming on the 911 tape, screaming for help, just in our experience, it sounds like a younger voice. it sounds somewhat possibly
higher pitched than an adult male's voice would be. but fix for us in the elements of the story as we know it now how important it is, if we really do have a finding to a 99% certainty, that that is not george zimmerman's voice crying for help on that tape. >> here are the things that are important for me, as an observer to find out about those tapes. whether or not there could be two people at any point during that 911 call. because it goes on for quite a while. and you can imagine a circumstance under which somebody could yell for help to subdue someone while someone else yells to get this guy off of me or whatever. so that is important. the other thing to remember, lawrence, is when i interviewed trayvon's mother and
grandmother, they indicated to me that they do not have a single video of trayvon martin. i asked if she had any voice mail messages of him saved on her phone. she said she had none, and the only voice that she could recall or think that there maybe of his is of his voice mail message, if you call his phone, he doesn't pick up and the answering machine picks up. so you may not be able to get a piece of video from trayvon martin in an elevated kind of state of speaking. so that may be a handicap here in this case. so, the first thing is, can you eliminate george zimmerman all together? second is, is there enough of trayvon martin's voice left in the world that you can get a match of trayvon martin's voice. if you get that, that does go
one step further in the family's defense that trayvon martin is a person who is fears for his life, may be being attacked. that doesn't answer all of the questions, but it goes a step further in that direction. >> charles m. blow, thank you very much for joining us tonight. coming up, trayvon martin's mother and father and the city manager of sanford, florida, will join me with more on the killing of trayvon martin. and in tonight's "rewrite" mitt romney was asked today if he thinks it's a sin for a white man to marry and have a child with a black woman, which for a mormon turns out to be a more complicated question than you might think. later, an explosive device goes off in a planned parenthood clinic. but that doesn't stop rick santorum from attacking planned
to every school and every child. not to sacramento. it's the only initiative that can say all that. check out our online calculator and find out how your school would benefit. visit ourchildrenourfuture2012.com today. the fbi is investigating an explosive device set off in a planned parenthood clinic in wisconsin two days before that state's presidential primary. and president obama is doing better in swing states now, thanks to a surge in support among women. next, more on the killing of trayvon martin. we will talk to his parents and the m
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it's just another way you'll be traveling at the speed of hertz. parents of trayvon martin, tracy martin and sybrina fulton along with their attorney benjamin crump. thank you for joining me tonight. >> thank you, lawrence. >> i want to the take us back to the first thing we ever heard from the other parents in this case, the father of george zimmerman. he wrote a letter to the local paper down there. it was very short. it had some emotion in it. in it he said, out of respect for the ongoing investigation i will not discuss specifics. then he went on to say one specific thing about the evidence. at no time did george follow or
confront mr. martin. tracy martin, as the other father in this case, when you read that and then you hear a 911 tape of george zimmerman huffing and puffing as he is obviously chasing your son, what would you like to say back to mr. zimmerman about this first assertion of his that his son didn't even chase your son? >> i would ask him did he actually listen to the audio? and was he listening to the same tape that we were listening to? >> and i want us all to listen to a piece of tape of an interview that mr. zimmerman then did. by the way, at the end of that letter, that he released weeks ago, he said the zimmerman family will have no further contact with the media prior to the resolution of the investigation. the family's obviously changed their mind about that going out there, doing a lot of media. i want to listen to something he
said in his television interview that was recorded there in florida. when he was asked, do you think that being a judge that mr. zimmerman was a judge himself, do you think that that, in any way, affected the way the police handled this case last night? that night. let's listen to his answer to that. >> no one knew that i was a retired magistrate judge. i didn't mention it to the police. i didn't mention it to the state attorney's office. >> sybrina fulton, i'm struck in that by him saying, i didn't mention it to the police. i didn't mention it to the state attorney's office. that, to me, is an answer to the question of did he talk to the police and did he talk to the state attorney's office. it seems to me, within that answer, is the obvious implication that this former judge was there at that time and that night and having
conversations with the police and the state attorneys office. is that what you think you just heard him say it. >> implies that he did speak to them and it imlies he may have talked about certain things but he mentioned that this is not one of the things he did not mention, his position. but i'm pretty sure they knew who he was because they knew the son. >> sybrina, as the mother of the victim that night, would you have liked to have gotten a chance to talk to the police and the prosecutor that night? >> i would have loved to be given the opportunity to talk to the police department, just to find out what was going on, exactly what happened. and it probably would have eased my mind a great deal but by us not having a lot of the answers, it bothered us. >> when we have an nbc news
interview with mr. zimmerman's lawyer, just taped yesterday. i want to listen to some excerpts from that interview that i have cut out, specifically because i'm struck by his phrasing. he repeatedly refers to this case will be litigated in court. it sounds like he expects to go to court on this. let's listen to the way he said that. >> i think that all of the evidence will come out when it goes to court and it will be litigated at that time. it will be litigated one time and it will be in court and by the rules of criminal procedure and under the laws of the state of florida and that's when i will answer those questions when we get to that point. when it comes time to litigate this casely litigate it. again, the case will be litigated in court and when it comes to that point i will argue. >> benjamin crump i have heard plenty of lawyers in that situation and they always say if
it comes to court, if it comes to court, it seems as though mr. zimmerman's lawyer has resigned himself to the idea that this is going to end up in a courtroom. >> mr. o'donnell, i think it is one of those situations, thanks to really the media and shows like you, the evidence has been coming out slowly but sure ly. we didn't get any answers from the police department or the state attorney's office. we have gotten flfgs watching your program and people who said we just want the truth to come out. it is one of those situations. you look at the videotape and hear the 911 tapes, after you look at the phone logs from trayvon's phone records, after you have the witnesses coming forth, it's just one piece of evidence after another to show at least that this is a matter that should be decided in a
courtroom, not by police department or a state attorney saying, you know, he said self-defense so we are going to let him go free while trayvon goes to the medical examiner. that's the tough thing to the deal with for his mother and father. >> sybrina fulton, a mother knows her child's voice. you have said from the start that that was trayvon on that 911 tape that we hear crying, screaming for help during this incident. we just presented two audio experts who insist to their 99% certainly, legal certainly that that voice is not robert zimmerman. there's only one other voice that it can be on the scene. how does it feel for you tonight to be vindicated on this point as far as the evidence has so far developed, based on what we know so far that everything indicates that you are absolutely right that the cries
for help you were hearing were from your son? >> it just means that what i've said earlier is being supported by experts. it's just good to know that other people are accepting what i said and they are not just taking anything that they hear. i did say that was my son, and i truly believe that is my son. i'm agrooem agreeing with the ex experts that is my son. >> benjamin crump, thank you for joining us and tracy martin and saab saybrina fulton, thank you for coming in tonight and i'm in saw of the grace and dignity you have been conducting yourself . >> thank you very much. >> the city manager of sanford, florida, will join me next. also coming up, president obama will get a big boost in a new poll of swing state voters. that's going to be coming up in the show. in the rewrite tonight, mitt romney was asked a question about sin today that he answered with one word, but the real
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situation. now that we have seen the video of the way they arrived back a at the police station, not using -- they have been criticized on all of the networks. the officers in the video not taking possession of zimmerman's clothing, mr. zimmerman's clothing, not having their own hands covered with plastic gloves to preserve evidence, not to contaminate anything. there's been an endless stream of law enforcement krit siding what we see in the video of your police department. >> first, let me start by saying again to the family, particularly the parents of trayvon. we extend on behalf of the city our deepest sympathies and condolences. being a parent, i can't begin to understand how it would be to lose a son like that. in regard to the sanford police department, i have always called for an investigation, a review and critique of how they did. that is something that is very important, not just for the city of sanford but for the world to
know that what they did was appropriate or not appropriate. >> do you think it would be appropriate for the police and the prosecutor to be speaking to george jornl's father on the night of the shooting. >> i don't know. and that will come out in the investigation. i think the special prosecutor will take that in to account as they make a decision on what she is going to do. >> in the previous segment, i played a tape of -- when asked if they knew he was a judge he said i didn't mention it to the police or the state attorney's office. that was kind of buried in this interview he did last week. but it seems to indicate this was some contact there. i'm just wondering, as you are watching this unfold as the city manager, there must be many, many aspects of the way police work is done and has been done in sanford that you feel needs addressing. do you believe you are going to
have to have -- you are i going to have to eventually bring in a new chief of police from outside of sanford to straighten out this system? >> i've asked for a review. i want to know exact ly what the sanford police department did, whether they did things they shouldn't have did or and based on that we will make a determination regarding chief lee and the sanford police department. >> how is this -- >> you are right. i have questions. >> how is the city bearing uppen under the tension. the city is known as the friendly city. that is self imposed label. but with the protest marchs and demonstrations, none of which have turned violent in any way but must create some sort of pressures on running that city. >> it has been a challenge. we have had a lot of visitors and we have a model that we want to make them accommodated.
they were not here for a fun time. a lot of them were angry and we understand that. this is very serious and we take it that way. the city has knot gotten negative comments. people that have never heard of sanford the only thing they know of sanford is that trayvon martin was killed here. that's unfortunate. we are still a city of 53,000 people. what happened that tragic night with the shooting affected two with people. but then it spread and affected the entire sanford community and now around the country. i do call the fact that it was a very unfortunate intera action between two people. sanford has over 53,000 people. we are proud of them and look forward to people getting to see the real sanford, not just that trayvon was killed here. >> norton bonaparte thank you for joining us. >> thank you for the opportunity. coming up, a ron paul supporter asked mitt romney a very strange question today about his religion. does romney think it is a sin
for a white man to marry and have a child with a black woman? mitt romney gave a one-word answer to that question, but mormon teachings on that subject have been rewrite over the years. that's in tonight's "rewrite." with republicans relentless demonizing of planned percent hood how surprise ing is it that was a real attack on a planned parenthood in wisconsin just before the primary there and it seems the politics of contraception is driving people away from mitt romney. steve schmitt and howard dean will join me next to discuss a new poll showing president obama with a big lead over mitt romney right where it counts. dude you gotta be entertaining.
and mitt romney at 42. the biggest change in support has been among women under 50 in the last run of this poll 49% of women, under 50 supported the president. and 44% supported mitt romney. today, 61% of women under 50 support president obama, while only 30% support mitt romney. this leaves political analyst rush limbaugh very confused. >> the reason i say that this usa/today/gallup poll is a fluke is that women buy gasoline, too. women have to pay taxes women, some of them, like to have jobs. if the republicans are trying to take away women's birth control pills, that affects men, too. it's not just women who would be
mad at the republicans trying to take away women's birth control pills, right? i mean, men have a vested interest here. >> joining me now is former senior adviser john mccain's 2008 presidential campaign and senior strategist in the bush/cheney 2004 campaign steve schmitt and howard dean former chairman of the democratic national committee and former governor of vermont. thank you both. howard dean, i don't shock easily looking at polls, but this surge in women's support -- rush limbaugh says it is a fluke. okay. here's an easy one. howard dean, do you agree with rush limbaugh? >> no. not now or probably ever. look, this sant fluke. this has been going on three weeks in some of the polls. this is a disaster for romney. he can't get this back. what women will remember is that in the debates, in these 25
debates or whatever these guys have is that women were not on the radar screen except to treat them as if they were supposed to be in the kitchen. it is the most ridiculous argument on the republican side and it is shocking. the numbers among latinos are even worse. explain how you can alienate two of the largest groups in the country and expect to win the presidency. it's not going to happen. >> steve schmitt. the number for women overall. we were talking about women under 50 but for women overall it is president obama at 54 and romney 36. that's an 18-point gap. there's exactly a one-point gap between president obama and mitt romney among men. so it is a tie among men and an 18-point gap among women. if that keeps up, you don't have to know anything else. this thing's over. >> yeah, bad news. lawrence, this is why the republican establishment in washington wants this race to be
over. they want mitt romney to get out of the primary to the general election. the reality is the primary contest has been extremely injurious. it is not analogous to the 2008 primaries. governor romney has become very lopsided with regard to his favorable and unfavorable numbers. one thing i disagree with governor dean about is i think there will be time to repair some of the dachblgt it is not easy but it sbhoun a mystery. american women don't want to hear american politicians talking about their contraception and birth controls. this isn't rocket science. so we had a lot of people who went out there thinking for some reason this was going to be a good issue opposed to the economy, which is what we should be focusing on and viola the results are as you see them reflected in the poll. >> remember, these are the battleground states. imagine what the gender gap is in california or new york,
massachusetts. the president is not going to let republicans forget about this. let's listen to the president talk about planned parenthood. >> when some professional politicians casually say they'll get rid of planned parenthood, don't forget what they are really talking about, eliminating the funding for preventative care that millions of women rely on and leaving them to fend for themselves. >> howard dean, that's a perfect example of the politics, the convenient politics of the moment seemingly converging exactly with what the candidate and the president actually thinks and believes. >> see, here's where i don't agree with steve on this one, these are deep wounds for women and hispanics. the language used by romney about the dream act, that is something that matters to everybody whether they are here legally or illegally. the same thing with women. i don't see how this goes away. the only way is if romney stands up and says i didn't mean it and take it back and then he is totally screwed because he's a flip flopper.
i think this is a disaster and i think bore barring some enormous thing, which could happen i think the race is over. >> rush limbaugh thinks that women should be paying more attention to gasoline prices than contraception politics. >> they are going to pay attention to both, lawrence. >> they can. the obama campaign has a new ad going to gasoline prices. let's listen to that. >> president obama, domestic oil production at an eight-year high. so why is big oil attacking him? because he's fighting end to their tax breaks. he's raising mileage standards and doubling renewable energy. in all of these fights, mitt romney stood with big oil, for their tax breaks, attacking higher mileage standards and renewables. when you see this ad, remember who paid for it and what they want. >> steve schmidt, can you explain to rush lim limbaugh why republicans harping about gas
prices may not make up the ground they lost over contraception. >> you look at that ad, this is a function of the president's political strength right now, energy prices, these are a liability for him. i think his energy record is a liability, but he's on offense with the issue. in fact, he's criticizing his likely opponent, governor romney on it. republicans, as governor dean talked about, i think we disagree on which it is recoverable for him or not. i think it is. i think we have dug a pretty deep hole. we need to stop digging and start climbing out of it wane need to do that by focusing exclusively on the economy. and the reason the gender gap is opened up because for some reason, unbeknownst to only them we have had scores of leaders in the republican party to decide to take these issues are and the republican women are repelled by it and it is a huge problem and you see it in the polls. >> they are agreeing to disagree
on how deep the republicans have dug themselves a hole. republicans have spent months attacking planned parenthood in speeches. now someone has done it for real in the state where mitt romney and rick santorum are campaigning. next, mitt romney runs away from a somewhat complicated question about his religion today. that's next in the "rewrite." [ male announcer ] that. right there -- reminds you
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create with a black? >> no, next question. >> that question is not as crazy as it sounds, especially when you consider the teachings of brigham young who happens to be the only mormon leader mitt romney has ever publicly praised while running for president. brigham young was president of the mormon church for 30 years and mormon belief holds that the president of the church talks directly to god. when the president of the mormon church tells you what god is thinking, mormons listen very carefully. on march 8th, 1863, brigham young said in a sermon, shall i tell you the law of god in regard to the african race? if the white man, who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of cain the penalty under the law of god is death on the spot.
this will always be so. so there is mitt romney's hero, brigham young, telling him if he has sex with a black woman he will die, on the spot. and this will always be so. bret hatch, the 28-year-old ron paul support who are asked romney today if it is a sin to marry and pro create with a black woman tried to quote something written by joseph smith, the founder of mormonism. mitt romney cut him off when he heard the beginning of these lines. quote, and there was a blackness came upon all the children of canen that they were december piused among all people. racism's grip on mormon practice has been so strong durgt mitt romney's lifetime that it was not until 1978, ten years after martin luther king was
assassinated, 1978 that the mormon church suddenly decided to allow black men to become priests in the mormon church. mitt romney was 31 years old at the the time. if we had a candidate running for president today or any nominee facing senate confirmation who belonged to a racially exclusive club until he was 31 years old, that man's candidacy for the presidency or for the cabinet or a federal court would be doomed. but in america, the politics of religion has spared mitt romney the embarrassment of having to address this issue because it is the virtually unanimous position of the political press corps that no candidate should ever be asked any challenging question about the candidate's religion. at the same time, the very same political media believes it is appropriate to ask any
presidential candidate to speak warmly about his or her relationship with jesus christ and no other religious figure, only jesus christ. indeed, the press judges the candidates on how well, how artfully, how convincingly they portray their so-called publicly proclaimed christian faith. but, as the romney campaign knows, town hall meeting do not operate according to the press corps conventions and so the romney campaign knows it might get hit with this kind of question again. >> i guess my question is, do you believe it's a sin for a white man to marry and pro create with a black? >> no. next question. >> the romney campaign has no fear that the next question from anybody in the media will be did you ever believe that? did you believe it in 1968 when you were 21 years old and martin
luther king was killed and the president of the mormon church kept teaching you that it was perfectly reasonable to not allow black men to become priests? when did mormons stop believing what brigham young taught them about the african race? we asked mormon officials to help us with these questions today and in response they directed us to a post on their website that they put up about a month ago. it states the church unequivocally condemns racism, including any and all past racism by individuals both inside and outside the church. the statement quotes a former mormon church president saying no man who makes disparaging remarks concerning those of another race can consider himself a trooul trudie sieple .
then we asked if it applied to brigham young and the spokesperson said the statement is what it is, regarding our church history. that's it. the statement is what it is. so did mormon men mitt romney's age actually believe or ever believe what their hero brigham young taught them about the african race that they would die on the spot if they had sex with a black woman? mitt romney knows he will never have to answer that question because the conventions surrounding the politics of religion mean that question will never be asked. [ donovan ] i hit a wall.
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the fbi is now investigating a homemade explosive set off outside of a planned parenthood clinic in wisconsin last night. the clinic was closed and no one was inside of the building at the time. the health center will reopen tomorrow. rick santorum thought this was the perfect day to attack mitt romney in that same region of wisconsin for romney's past contributions to planned parenthood. >> a lot of other issues in this campaign where governor romney and i have been different, the life issue. governor romney is running ads out there suggesting that i'm not pro life. where governor romney and his family contributed money to planned parenthood. >> joining me is michelle goldberg, senior writer for the daily beast. and the author of the means of reproduction. rick santorum put out a
statement saying of course you shouldn't blow up planned percenthood offices but he couldn't resist saying in the same statement that we must defund planned parenthood. it's a battle that this battleground poll shows shows so far seems to have been politically beneficial to president obama. >> that's right. actually -- typically we see an up surge in anti-abortion violence. i think it is important to noets note this is the fourth such attack, right, there were two fire bombings in 2011. there was a clinic burned to the ground in january. and often you see an up surge in violence when the anti--abortion movement kind of thinks it was on the verge of victory and finds themselves somehow thwarted. although that might be reading too much this to what is a singular attack and we still don't know who committed it, it seems when there is frustration among anti-abortion forces viems often results. >> michelle, is there anyone on the anti-abortion side of our
politics that you would hold up as the example of how to talk about that without ever planting the idea in anyone's head they should go and set off an explosive at planned parenthood? >> it is a tricky thing. on the one hand, i don't think you can lay the attacks at the feet of someone like rick santorum. >> no. >> but it is true when you constantly say these clinics are committing mass murder, that they are, you know, that they are a site for sex trafficking and this slanders and lies that the right has spread about planned parenthood in particular in recent years is astonishing. if they are as depraved and violent as republican politicians say they are, then it seems hard to argue that somebody out this shouldn't go and attack one of them. >> yeah. i'm not suggesting the rhetoric is intended to do that but it seems to me in a climate where