tv Hardball With Chris Matthews MSNBC April 24, 2012 11:00pm-12:00am PDT
first national interview since returning to nebraska to run for his old senate seat and to try to help the democrats hold on to their majority in the senate. attempt to help the democrats hold on to their majority in the senate. that's'sorrow's exclusive on "the last word." johnny, we hardly knew ye, let's play hardball 37 good evening. i'm chris matthews. in washington leading off tonight, sweet carolina. you like soap operas then you will love the details in the john edwards court case today. the prosecution's star witness andrew young told how he concealed his affair with retail rielle hunter. what edwards did to keep his presidential dreams alive. that's if you believe a word with it. we have the latest atted top of the show 37 also a first of its kind look at
who mitt romney might pick at his running mate. each candidate addresses a particular problem romney may have. cloth coat republicans, catholics, la tinos, women. but here's the bigger problem. doesn't all this suggest that romney has a lot of problems? plus one reason barack obama won four years ago, is that voters aged 1 to 29 came out in big numbers. and he won two thirds of them, 66%. but enthusiasm among young voters is obviously down and that's why the president is now making his big pitch to college students today. and if you've been listening to the republican candidates for president, you'd think the southern door of the country has been left open to immigration. he hasn't. the total number of mexicans living illegally in the united states right now is actually down a million. and that report comes just as the supreme court is about to take up arizona's anti-illegal immigration law. finally, let me finish tonight with the utter failure of our country to deal with either debt or long term immigration problems. we begin with the trial of john edward, however. melinda henenberger is down
there covering the trial. i want to start with melinda. this is a sad story. a sad story of a marriage coming apart, of deception, of infidelity, of cheating, also of money laundering. of all kinds of things allegedly. what happened today in the testimony? what did you hear in the testimony of andrew young, the star witness for the prosecution? >> well, when you say it's in many ways a sad story, that's so true. just to see john edwards' elderly parents sitting behind him, supporting him even now as they always have throughout his life, you can't not feel it for the family. andrew young as a witness today just seemed to me like a nightmare witness. i mean, so many inconsistencies, internal inconsistencies even in what he was saying. for example, saying john edwards did not want to know a thing about the scheme to keep the
money flowing to his pregnant mistress. and yet because he wanted to preserve his viability, because he allegedly thought he was sure to become a vice presidential choice or maybe attorney general, and then on the other hand, he says he was involved in every single aspect of, you know, this plot to keep his candidacy alive by funneling this money to his mistress, rielle hunter. the one thing that came across as ringing true was when he said because john edwards has always said that it was andrew young's idea to claim paternity and when andrew young describes the scene in great detail of john edwards coming to him, he says he took the cell phone call when he was at the petsmart buying a turtle aquarium for his kids and he starts giving him this stump speech like, andrew, you have to
do this, it's for the greater goo. this is bigger than all of us, this is about america. and andrew was also i thought very believable on the point of his own motivations in this. he said, you know, of course i wanted my friend to become president of the united states. that would mean a lot of good benefits for me. and that really did come across as quite believable. >> let me go to hampton on the point by point here. hampton, what did you think the prosecution established today in terms of the claim by them, and of course by the star witness that john edwards came in second in the iowa caucuses for president. how he was able to spend money he got from people like bunny using that money according to the prosecution to cover up the affair, the child he had out of wedlock with rielle hunter. how he's doing all this as part of a campaign expenditure?
how successful were they today? >> well, they didn't lose ground today. but you this was i think in many ways a win/win. a win for each side. andrew young backed up not just by his word which has a lot of credibility issues, but by documents, checks, bank account statements. was able to put john edwards in the middle of the plot to keep the affair private. and in many ways today was an audio version of the politician. but andrew young helped john edwards in three key ways. one, he made clear that bunny mellon wanted nothing in return. two, he made clear that bunny melon was told these expenses were made for personal matters, not political. and, three, andrew young said john edwards told him time and time again this was perfectly lawful. so andrew young may have made out the government's case, but he also helped john edwards. >> that's what i'm wondering about. it sounds like he made the case against the prosecution by saying this isn't a political expenditure.
and this wasn't intended to be such by the one who gave the money, bunny mellon, the wealthy heiress. nor was it in anyway ever described as such. it was simply a way to pay a family expenditure to keep a family problem secret. >> yes, i think it's all going to turn on how much you believe the part of andrew young's all over the map statements that says, you know, this was in john's mind a way to keep his campaign viable. that this was very crucial to his campaign because he had even after he suspended his campaign some kind of idea that he was bound to be as i said vice president or attorney general. i do think there was something for both sides today. but it was, you know, he was not -- as i said before, i mean, the judge was annoyed with andrew young. she kept saying can you slow down. he looked like a guy -- he was revising his earlier statements. in his book, he said that the money only started going to rielle after she became
pregnant. today he did not say that, he said the money came before that. so the judge was annoyed. the prosecution was annoyed with him. the prosecution kept saying that's not what i asked you, sir. so it was not a great day for the prosecution. >> the person that was there today -- let me get to the heart of this, so many people understand this case emotionally. >> elizabeth edwards was a beloved figure. there she is in the film we are supporting. she was in fact a very supportive wife, a very likeable person in her public life. very intelligent. certainly as intelligent as her husband and yet she was the one who was cheated upon and died of cancer. in the midst of all of this, how that she was, in fact, a victim. how did her personality play in that courtroom? i notice they decided to have only seven women out of the 16 jurors. a very few number of women. what was that about in terms of
her, late elizabeth edwards? hampton. >> to my mind, elizabeth edwards has come off worse in game change or the other politician, chronicles about this 2008 campaign that she has in court today. there's plenty of trial left. i think this is still a trial about john edwards and andrew young. one issue for the government is andrew young says he had concerns about the legality of this scheme. but andrew young is no lawyer. he never took the bar, he never passed the bar. and edwards has former federal election commissioners ready to testify that what he did was not a crime. >> i thought it was interesting that on the jury, yes, there are seven women who were in the pool, but they were on the panel or will be alternates, but none of them are anywhere near to the age elizabeth would be today and i thought that was very interesting that they left that
demographic out of the jury pool. but elizabeth did not come across that well here. it's true, because she always claimed that she only knew there was a one nightstand, that she was really in the dark. and what we're hearing in this, it's clear from the voice mails that we heard today from john edwards, that she heard about a lot of this at a lot of different steps along the way. that not only was it there's knowing and there's knowing, but she discovered many things about his relationship with rielle hunter as time went on. and that she seems to have been, you know, at one point the lawyers were even saying, you know, one of the main reasons he was out there is because elizabeth wanted to campaign so much. and it really did paint a picture of elizabeth being more
involved with this than we maybe thought. >> hampton, i want to get a key point about this guy. the reason john edwards had a chance of being president, the reason he was a senator from north carolina is he was an astoundingly successful trial lawyer. he was able to win over juries. rural juries. and win those big cases against hospitals, doctors. he was the big shot, he was also in many ways, the good looking guy whos what attractive to the jurors in many ways because of his class background, looks, style, charm. it seems like all that has been thrown into reverse. he's now seen as the cad, the guy who messed around on his wife, who cheated on her, he deceived her, then tried to run for office while paying off the living costs of a child he had out of wedlock. paying off the girlfriend, if you will. is that in fact the context, the box this trial came in in north carolina for those jurors? the personality of john edwards. >> you're absolutely right, chris.
i saw it firsthand as john edwards really sold himself convincingly as the son of a mill worker for the first time when he said it back in '97 and '98 as he won that senate seat. the question is can john edwards, the man with the mistress, who cheated on his cancer-stricken wife, can he connect with this jury? and that's still an open question. but one thing you'd appreciate is today was about unreported campaign flights, not for a candidate which really is a problem, but for people who had no relationship towards getting votes. they could have cost edwards votes, but it seemed like is surreal scene when we're talking about flights for people other than the candidate. >> it was very interesting, too, as you were saying about his ability to charm this jury, it's interesting to me that he's making no attempt now to even try and charm the jury. he doesn't really -- he's very involved with his defense
attorneys. but he is not even trying to work on contact with the jury and i think that's probably a wise decision on his part. >> melinda, keep an eye on it. i've always been curious about his appeal any way. thank you melinda and hampton. coming up, who is mitt romney going to pick as his running mate? back to real politics. each possible vp plugs a hole for romney. he has a lot of holes. i'm not saying it's a titanic, but it is a ship with holes in it. a latino, a woman, a roman catholic or perhaps someone from the hard right? he has a lot of choice here because he has a lot of problems. this is "hardball." [ male announcer ] raise your hand if you've got savings whiplash. you know, from car insurance companies shouting, "save 500 bucks over here!" "no, save 300 bucks over here!" "wait, save 400 bucks right here." with so many places offering so much buck-saving, where do you start? well, esurance was born online,
raised by technology, and majors in efficiency. so they're actually built to save you money... and time... and whiplash. esurance. insurance for the modern world. click or call. brand new poll numbers in what the democrats hope will be a battleground state. let's check the scoreboard. first in new hampshire, president obama is up, believe
it nor, 51/41 in what we thought would be a very tight state. a nine point lead, the same lead he had in 2008. that's good news for him. how arizona state, democrats have long hoped they can flip and the president is close there. a new arizona state university poll has romney up 42/40 but so tempting for the dance. ♪
[ male announcer ] for our families... our neighbors... and our communities... america's beverage companies have created a wide range of new choices. developing smaller portion sizes and more low- & no-calorie beverages... adding clear calorie labels so you know exactly what you're choosing... and in schools, replacing full-calorie soft drinks with lower-calorie options. with more choices and fewer calories, america's beverage companies are delivering.
welcome back to "hardball." there are 231 delegates at stake tonight with primaries in connecticut, delaware, new york, pennsylvania and rhode island. but mitt romney's already looking beyond primary season of course. case in point, the search for a running mate which officially began last week when the campaign named long time romney aide beth myers to head the process. last night "the daily show" had fun with the many perspective candidates who seem to be saying they aren't interested. let's watch. >> if you're going to pass on the job, at least recommend someone else to fill it.
>> we have a lot of really talented people out there that mitt romney will get to pick from. senator rob portman would be phenomenal choices for vice president. >> see? that's all right. marco rubio says rob portman's your guy. i don't know who that is. let's see what he has to say about it. >> romney/portman, does it have a ring to it? >> i think rubio has a better ring. >> why does being romney's vice president now seem like a dare nobody wants to take? >> like in high school. dares go first. of course denying your interest is pretty much pro forma these days. so what is mitt romney looking for in a running mate? many of the names they're tossing around seem to help with some of his biggest problems. be it latinos or young voters or his own conservative base. possible veeps with chuck todd
and major garret, the white house correspondent for the national journal. gentlemen, let's start with you, sir, chuck. let's start with the one here. >> the only true gentleman on the show. >> i keep hearing this from the right. i don't hear it from mainstream journalists like yourself. they say rubio. i keep hearing it from the right wing guys, they say rubio. where do you stand? how does it look? >> i tell you i think he excites the base. the intellectual conservative base in a way that i think none of the other candidates being talked about do. i think that's number one. number two, clearly the idea of trying to help on the latino front makes rubio a prime player. you throw in the fact that he's from a swing state. and i think his youth is helpful. there needs to be the republican party needs to show a generational shift. that's why the idea of either a paul ryan or a marco rubio does that. >> okay. let's go with --
>> the down side, has really been through the scrutiny that you go through and you want to do that with somebody that went through a relatively easy race once charlie crist got chased out. >> yeah, for hugging obama. talk about a freudian slip. last week, major, you were interviewing marco rubio as we saw about the possibility he would be vice president. and he said something rather revealing perhaps. let's listen. >> three, four, five years from now, if i go a good job as vice president -- i'm sorry. if i do a good job as a senator instead of the vice president, i'll have a chance to do all sorts of things. >> you do what do i, try to get them all screwed up. he said if i spend the next three, four, five years as doing a vice president. >> years as vice president. exactly. i was accused of using jedi mind tricks on marco rubio.
for the record, ladies and gentlemen, i possess no jedi mind tricks. >> the secret racing stripes? >> i don't think so. and i don't think romney will pick rubio. as far as anyone can possibly be on the limb, i said he'll pick rob portman. >> rob portman is the senator from ohio. a state republicans historically must win to win the presidency. here's how one republican state chairman described the appeal of rob portman. according to buzz feed. he was born to be the guy standing next to the guy. he's the type of guy who ran for vice president of his high school student council. go ahead, you first. >> whatever you think about rob portman, i make the case on a couple of levels. one, twice senate confirmed. what does that mean? >> for? >> ustr, u.s. trade representative and budget director. that means his fbi file is known to all who care. which means he will be noncontroversial and will not slow the romney campaign down if they pick rob portman. what is crucial for romney is to pick a vice president that
checks several boxes and then he moves on as the alternative to obama. he cannot afford two or three weeks about who his running mate is. which i think he would invite with rubio, christie or any of the more charismatic choices. >> wouldn't they be more like two puddles of water rather than a spark? >> i said in my column it would be squares squared. true. but that's the essence of romney. he cannot escape that. and trying to graft on to the tree charisma only highlights that he is noncharismatic. and we elect presidents, not vice presidents. >> when you go for ice cream, he asks for a double vanilla? chuck. you made your point. now chuck. >> i thought major was just about to bring up a ticket that i was going bring up, that did just this. al gore was vanilla. and bill clinton needed a little vanilla. but he also wanted the generational change and he was doubling down on what they thought was his most appealing element, the idea of generational change.
let me tell you another thing that helps on portman. the other part of this process. whether it's fair or not, it's a fact. and that,mitt romney's running mate is going to get judged against sarah palin. the question, is it for a day, a week or a month, this whole cloud that she leaves over the process. >> right. >> absolutely. >> if you put sarah palin, and i said this earlier today, if you put her in a computer program and said, give me the exact opposite of sarah palin, would you get rob portman. >> let's take a other options. jeb bush might be popular with conservatives. but george will spend this weekend, the issue with the bush brothers. let's take a watch. >> if jeb bush is to be romney's running mate, it would mean that in seven of nine presidential elections, there would be a bush on the republican ticket. and it gets hard to argue that we're not a tribal society at that point. >> what do you think of that? chuck, just too many -- another problem for jeb who i like is he
would have to defend his brother's administration. and he'd be like a voodoo doll. anytime you said anything against w, he would have to defend him. whereas romney can skip and say, that's not my problem. >> i think it's a little bit of a negative for portman by the way is his service in the bush administration as budget director on the item they want to do. but on jeb, if you want to look at hispanic voters, i would make the argument that jeb bush could help romney more with hispanics than marco rubio. >> what do you think of that? >> i just think bush is the george will problem, it's too much bush. if you're going to go florida and hispanic, go rubio. and i don't think he's going to go there. >> let's talk about more interesting candidates. i'm looking at chris christie certainly interesting. and condoleezza rice, who has a little bit of buzz on this. you first, chuck. these are very interesting picks. they would dazzle the country. >> they would. and you would have an issue of
overshadowing the candidate in a chris christie. you don't want that as a romney campaign. let me focus on condi and this is that issue of i think romney would really like to pick a woman running mate. i think it's not fair to the other women running mates that they'll get held to a sarah palin standard, fair/unfair. >> condi wouldn't be. >> that's right. she's a political persona before anybody had heard of sarah palin. she's completely politically formed, if you will. now, what's the down side? it is the fact that you might be relitigating some things in the bush years, and do you really want to do that? but i think if you really believe he needs to fix his problem with women, and i tell you, condi rice would be safe and could help on that front. i just think she's a long shot. no doubt. i don't think -- she's never been in elected politics. and i think that is a drawback for anybody getting into this business with just three months notice. but i think she is an intriguing
way, a route for romney to go, that he could really use. >> i think so, too. ed rollins said she would be a better pick for senate. years ago he spotted her talent. >> i think condi has a few other problems. mitt romney will have serious governing issues, and they're all economic. condoleezza rice offers nothing particular will in either communicating to the house or the senate or getting votes or working the system to help him on economic or trade issues. that's why i think he'll go for someone like rob portman because economy is crucial. chris christie offers no reassurance whatsoever to social conservatives. he's bad on guns, he's bad on abortion, he's bad on the whole front -- >> how is he bad on abortion? >> because's pro-choice. >> he's pro-life. >> he has a complicated history on the life issue and i don't think he offers any reassurance to social conservatives and romney already has problems there. >> i agree with you on portman. portman is doubling down in the fashion by the way of bill clinton and it worked. >> paul ryan would be the same. you could argue the same thing.
>> you're right. >> it carries a lot of weight, it carries a lot of baggage with that plan. you have to defend every element in that ryan plan. right? >> he has to do that anyway. might as well have the guy who is better than defending it than having to do it yourself. >> do you have a pick, chuck? >> i think it's a short list of portman, i think you'll see a woman on the short list that gets seriously vetted. my gut is kelly ayotte out of new hampshire and tim pawlenty. i think he would love to put a mid western governor on the ticket. there is no sitting governor that makes a lot of sense, but pawlenty may make sense as a former. >> thanks. great thinking this time of the year. it's only april. >> three months of it. by the way. the only thing interesting about romney right now. by the way, polls close in four of tonight's primary states. nbc will have full complete results here on msnbc and we'll be giving them to you throughout
the evening in our regular programming. up next, as mitt romney decides on a running mate, wait until you see what rudy giuliani says what went wrong with palin. ♪ surf's up everybody get your boards and your wetsuits ♪ free-credit-score-dot-com's gonna direct you ♪ ♪ to check your credit score before it gets too late ♪ ♪ and you end up strapped for cash ♪ ♪ patching your board with duct tape ♪ ♪ so hit free-credit-score-dot-com ♪ ♪ find out what credit's about ♪ ♪ or else you could be headed for a credit wipeout ♪
back to "hardball" for the side show. first up, it's the one mitt romney story that stood the test of time, the dog on the car roof story. so romney's people have come up with a counter attack. here's stephen colbert. >> the romney campaign has found an obama dog story even more damaging. listen to obama's own voice describe food his stepfather fed him as a small child in indonesia. >> away from the dinner table, i was introduced to dog meat,
tough, snake meat, tougher, and roasted grasshopper, crunchy. >> from his best telling book, dreams from my father or dog meat from my stepfather. i believe anything that president obama did at a ten-year-old is the same as anything romney did as an adult. and i have found a explosive photographic evidence that he supports pirates. someone has to help that woman. call s.e.a.l. team 6! >> the atlantic has dug up the history of president's dogs. here's lbj with his dog picking him up by the ears. that sparked outrage. as the presidential candidate, richard nixon gave his highly successful checkers speech. nixon had won big by saying his dog checkers was a gift and his family wasn't going to give him back no matter what those big shot critics said. the best dog story of all was when republicans attacked fdr for giving his dog falla a free ride on a navy ship.
his speech one of the best in history, helped win him a fourth term. finally, rudy giuliani has come out with his endorsement of mitt romney yesterday. despite the fact that he's had harsh words about romney over the years. and this morning, rudy weighed in on the veepstakes of the last election. what does he say would have helped sarah palin? >> if you are going to select somebody fairly new, that person should be selected fairly early. if you remember, by the time sarah palin got to the debate, she was a heck of a good candidate. if she had had three months to prepare, you would have seen sarah palin of today. >> she would have won the debate. >> yeah and that took like three weeks of preparation. you do two months of preparation, what a difference. >> what an idiotic conversation that was. do you believe either side of that conversation? rudy giuliani really believes that three months of prep would have changed everything? i don't believe a word he said. i don't believe he believed it. up next, back to school.
hello, everyone, i'm lynn berry, here's what's happening. mitt romney swept primaries in all five states. he scored easy victories in connecticut, rhode island, delaware, pennsylvania, and new york. he told supporters a better america begins tonight. a dairy cow in california tested positive for mad cow disease. the first new case since 2006. but authorities say the food market was never at risk. now, we'll send you back to
"hardball." back to "hardball." president obama hit the road this week as he visits colleges in key swing states to press for congress to act on student loans and avoid a jump in interest rates for over 7 million students. by the way, those rates are going to go up this summer by double. the youth vote is essential to the president's path to victory and there's both good and bad news on that front. the good news, obama leads mitt romney among voters 18 to 34. in our latest nbc/wall street journal poll. that's pretty hefty. by convincing 60%. the bad news, voters in that age group i mentioned don't have as much zeal about voting this time as they did four years ago. when 3% considered themselves highly interested four years ago today, that's down to 45%. a real slump in interest. with me two top political
reporters from the washington post. a great factoid from you today. what was the key issue helping the president among young voters, was it the number of them that turned out or was it the sweep with which he carried them? >> right. what i think a lot of people say, oh, well, the youth vote carried obama. and that's true. but it's a misnomer. it wasn't more -- >> you like it build it up. >> i do. shake it up a little bit much. >> you can't just answer my question. >> i'm trying to send my time to talk. in 2008, 18% of the electorate was 18 to 29. in 2004, it was 17%. so a marginal difference. >> he didn't increase the balloon of voters. >> no but he won those 18 to 29 by 32 points. which is vastly more. bill clinton i think came the closest, by 19. so he won them by such a big margin, it mattered more.
>> all right. this time around, in 2012, he has to maintain that 17% or 18% of them showing up. and he has to hold on them against romney who will have some, if minority is you sport with business school types. that small will support romney. >> that's right. and that's the message they're carrying on the economy. this is a message we see them carrying trying to get all the demographic, whether young people, whether in latinos. it's always about the economy. we saw him -- >> no, it's always about business solutions to the economy. >> that's right. it's all about -- >> business manager's perspective rather than politician's perspective. >> and you see obama doing very different things trying to reach these students where they live with the student loans. and also -- >> who is the only president this history to have a b-school degree? >> i don't know. >> w. the guy took us to the worst economic class. by the other guy was the great engineer, hoover. he was really good. anyway, the president took a populous tone today at unc.
my grad school. we call it the southern part of heaven. he spoke about student loans reminding the audience of young people it wasn't so long ago that he was still carrying debt himself, student loans in fact. availed reference to mitt romney who never had a loan to go to college. i'm sure it was another shot. let's watch. >> this is something michelle and i know about firsthand. i just want everybody here to understand, this is not -- i didn't just read about this. i didn't get just some talking points about this. i didn't just get a policy briefing on this. michelle and i, we've been in your shoes. like i said, we didn't come from wealthy families. so when we graduated from college and law school, we had a mountain of debt. when we married, we got poor together. but we only finished paying off
our student loans -- check this out, all right, i'm the president of the united states. we only finished paying off our student loans about eight years ago. that wasn't that long ago. >> i don't think mr. romney robot could do that. >> no, this is vintage obama. he's got a little bit of the baptist preacher in there. >> notice the rhythm? where did he learn that rhythm? he didn't go to baptist church. >> he went to baptist churches when he was in chicago and he'll probably highlight, too, polls show these young folks really value community service. you imagine that he will start a talk about his community service which is going to be a big thing with young people. >> by the way, did you see the numbers today? 15% of this country counting everybody in this country, everybody watching, have student loans outstanding. like one in six people watching still owe money to college. >> and i would point out, romney did a press conference yesterday with marco rubio and he came
back at the end of the press conference and said, hey, just fyi, i support the extension of these low interest rates. >> take its down just for parents watching and students watching, it could balloon up to 6%, it's keeping down at 3%. by the way i paid three back in the old days. at unc, we wanted to get a college tour with the president. here he is with jimmy fallon of late night. let's watch a portion of it. pretty good stuff. >> ladies and gentlemen, please welcome the 44th president of the united states of america, barack obama. ♪ i'm so in love with you >> do you know mitt romney? >> i've met him. but we're not friends.
>> you picked it out. he was singing an al green song. >> remember, that's the -- it went viral him singing the song. which proves that he is a talented guy. the one thing i would point out -- >> he does have a style. he can do the rainbow room. >> this is important. he is cool. mitt romney is not cool. that does not mean -- >> he has swagger. >> let's not lean against romney. >> that's a dynamic though. here is romney up in pennsylvania just yesterday. here's mitt romney, the candidate running against him. >> i fully support the effort to extend the low interest rate on student loans. there was some concern that that would expire halfway through the year. and i support extending the temporary relief on interest rates for students in part because of the extraordinarily poor conditions in the job
market. >> can you dig it? i knew that you could. was that the least cool guy? >> very different from president obama. >> that's not putting on a show. >> and very different from president obama's testimony about his own experiences. >> i don't mean to say pejoratively that mitt romney isn't cool. barack obama is, but -- >> i have to pick up on time. >> i agree. >> i think this cool factor, i think the kids would call it having swagger, is important to these young folks. they're not at the point where they're wearing t-shirts for barack obama anymore, but i do think they can identify. because he's a guy who fills out his brackets. >> we need a lot of old people to make up for these kids then? >> yeah. >> we'll see. anyway, thank you. great to have you on. i read you all the time. you're in about five times a week, aren't you? up next, republicans want you to believe that illegal immigration is out of control under president obama.
the trouble is it's actually not out of control. there are fewer legal immigrants from new mexico. a million less than a while ago. which is really kind of counterintuitive given all the headlines. that's ahead. this is "hardball." hey, head & . how long since you worried about flakes? since before jeans were this skinny. not since us three got a haircut. ♪ not since my first twenty-ninth birthday. [ female announcer ] head & shoulders. clinically proven to improve scalp health. with seven benefits, there's no worries from flakes, itch or breakage. i haven't worried about flakes since my grunge days. remember them? trying not to. [ female announcer ] head & shoulders. scalp and hair beyond compare.
let's see what you got. rv -- covered. why would you pay for a hotel? i never do. motorcycles -- check. atv. i ride those. do you? no. boat. house. hello, dear. hello. hello. oh! check it -- [ loud r&b on car radio ] i'm going on break! the more you bundle, the more you save. now, that's progressive. new developments in the secret service scandal. two more secret service agents will resign today. that's according to several sources with knowledge to the investigation. two more out. in addition, two agents will be
cleared of serious misconduct, that's good news, but will face administration action. and a fifth will have security clearance taken away which will require him to leave the agency. bad news for him. what a bad story again. serving , serving , a baseball. and one serving of fruit, a tennis ball. - you know, both parties agree. our kids can be healthier... the more you know.
we're back for all the talk from the right wing of course about all our poor border problems, the obama administration according to them has failed to tackle an every growing immigration problem. here's a surprising new report from the pew hispanic center. it shows that the number of mexicans living illegally in the united states is in serious decline. the number dropped from 7 million in 2007 to about 6.1 million last year.
that's a million dropped. it's the first time in four decades that number has receded. immigration will remain a hot button issue especially this week, the senate held a hearing on arizona's immigration law. the tough new immigration law out there. the supreme court will hear arguments on it tomorrow. and that's going to be hot. united states senator dick durbin sits on the judiciary committee responsible for immigration and border control problems. so senator, i'm going to give you some time here. this is one of the most difficult questions we face in this country. is it anywhere near solution. the senate well before you got there was passed. it wasn't given any teeth. it never had any enforcement power. what are we going to do in terms of arizona, the alternative to arizona and the long term dealing with the issue? how does it look? >> i can understand the sentiment across the united states that we don't have an immigration reform law, and we need it with millions in america
undocumented. many have lived here for a long time with families and established themselves in communities. we really need to come up with a standard. that's the responsibility of the president and congress. some states are moving on their own. that's the arizona story. i think what arizona has done is a violation of the constitution. the constitution specifies that the federal government has the responsibility when it comes to immigration and when it comes to whether a state can supercede it or go around, i don't think there's any doubt. we'll find out what the supreme court thinks. the point i tried to make at the hearing today for russell pierce, the author of the arizona law, is i asked him to take a look at six of his fellow arizona residents, all of whom are eligible for the dream act. all of whom are in college or have advanced college degrees. i told him each and every one of them could be arrested under his law. is that what his goal is? >> isn't it the law, i went back
and read it again this afternoon. the law says that act of stopping someone, this highway patrolman are required to make a reasonable effort to determine whether the country is in the country legally or not. how would you like that police officer to behave differently in that particular situation under the law? should they look at your driver's license and give it a special look if you think the person may not be here legally. what should a police officer do? ability like they think you're here legally or what? how would you like to see them behave differently under the law? >> i have the greatest respect for law enforcement. when they put that badge in the morning on their breast, they are literally risking their lives for you and everyone else. that's why the arizona law is so troublesome. we had a chief of police last week before the con sti fusion
subcommittee from east palo a o alto, ron davis 37 he said the way this law is written in arizona, he said, it's literally written to profile latinos. that's something we should never do in the united states. we shouldn't be calling them over to the side of the road because they appear to be driving hispanic. >> if they are driving recklessly, they can then ask. maybe that's the technical difference. you're not allowed. it says specifically, in number three, you are not to act according to a person's race, ethnicity or background. that's what it says in the law. >> it may be a distinction without a difference. what we're seeing in the law is a requirement subject to civil penalties if the law enforcement agency, police department doesn't enforce this law as written. there's some pressure on the law enforcement agents to look for those who may be in violation of the law. it says a reasonable suspicion that they are in this country illegally, undocumented.
when the arizona post, which is a group of law enforcement that spells out detail, they say here is what you ought to look for. look at the way they dress. look at their language and how they speak and determine if that's part of the calculation. that's perilously close to profiling, if it isn't profiling. >> well said. thank you so much. thank you for coming on. i see the problem you have with this bill. looks like the supreme court may have the same problem. when we return, let me finish with the failure of both parties to deal with immigration and the national debt. well, shoot, that's like checking on your burgers after they're burnt! [ male announcer ] treat your frequent heartburn by blocking the acid with prilosec otc. and don't get heartburn in the first place! [ male announcer ] one pill a day. 24 hours. zero heartburn. ♪ [ camera clicks ] ♪ it's hard to resist the craveable nature of a nature valley sweet & salty nut bar.
let me finish tonight with this. i generally have faith in our democracy to meet this country's purposes. what i fear in trying not to let me down is that it lacks the nerve to face the long term challenges. the big two, debt and immigration. i don't think you can call yourselves a government if you can't keep your books and you can't call yourselves a country if you can't control your borders. i look at the debt problem and i don't see the two parties getting together. do you? i don't see them getting together before the election or after the election. to get control of the rising debt, have you to reconcile spending and revenue at some point. you have to decide how much you're willing to tax people and spend that amount, i think or you have to decide how much to spend and raise revenues up to
that amount, don't you? the swa ridge ma tick is easy. the government if they ran it all by themselves, they would cut medicare with such brutality they would cease to control the government in the next election. would democrats deal with debt if they had complete control? i wonder if the government would put up with the tax level they might impose. you got a problem. put republicans in complete control of immigration, they might be draconian and start deporting people or putting so much economic pressure on them that they would self-deport. would this society stand for having people that live here for generations thrown out of the country? would they? would democrats ever deal with immigration? i wonder would they ever deal without the political pressure of republicans pounding them if they didn't. i doubt it. here is the problem. if neither party can be trusted