tv Hardball With Chris Matthews MSNBC June 14, 2013 4:00pm-5:01pm PDT
then you take yourself too seriously. but keenan, you need to take about 30, 40 pounds off if you're going to mimic me now. and then we need to talk about a tailor, you know. well, let me wish everyone a happy father's day. we want you to answer us by sending us your questions. e-mail me, ask rev at msnbc.com. remember, friend or foe, i want to know. one more time, happy father's day to all you dads out there, and thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. ten years, four wars let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. let me get it started tonight with this. the united states is now committed to an act of war against the government of syria. okay.
well, let's get the tally up to date. we attacked and went to war with afghanistan in 2001. we attacked and went to war with iraq in 2003. we helped to overthrow the of government of libya in 2011. and now we're targeting the government of syria, promising military support to the rebels there. it's an interesting pattern when you think about it. back in 2001, george w. and the committed hawks, he brought into our government with him, including dick cheney talked about going after iraq that was a big item on their agenda. just as important, it was the first item on their agenda. and now looking back and what we're doing now, that's precisely what we're doing, going down the list. going from country to country, setting our sights on government after government, regime change after regime change. night after night, on worldwide television, this country of ours is out there taking sides with anyone who wants to bring down and islamic government. regime change as i said in the islamic world has become our national pastime. don't believe me? then i recommend you stop, look, and listen. next stop, iran. joining me is robin wright with
the woodrow wilson center and david korn of mother jones. he is also an msnbc valued analyst. thank you for joining us. the white house as we all know today is stepping up military aid to the rebels in syria. "the new york times" reports it's likely to mean supplying troops there was small arms and ammunition. though heavier weapons have not been ruled out. today senator angus king of maine raised an important point about where all this could be heading. let's listen to him. >> i'm reluctant and cautious about this because i want to know what the end game is. we've done this before. we've done it three or four times before. and it's just not so easy to go in, you know, with some kind of surgical strike or something like that. and the question is, once we get in, how do we get out? what's our mission? >> great question. what's our mission? by the way, we're no longer having clean hands. you give guns to somebody, small arms they're called, they're going to shoot at somebody.
who are we encouraging people to shoot at with the guns we're giving them in syria. >> obviously the syrian government. the problem is who do we arm and whether this will make a difference. the likelihood is the small arms the kinds of ammunition and perhaps anti-tank equipment we're talking about probably won't make a serious difference in this conflict. >> let me get more primitive. if you give a gun to somebody, you intend them to use it. right? like lending your car, they're going to drive your car. so they're going too shoot and kill people, right? have we decided the rebels in syria are more in america's national interest than the government of syria which is another baathist government that the doesn't do anything except be a pain in the butt. but it doesn't threaten us. my question is why are we taking sides in an open war where people are killing other people? just an open question. are they good guys? >> the assad dynasty has a long record of killing tens of houses thousands of its own people. in one three-week period alone, up to 25,000 people in a ton call hama.
>> when was that? >> 1982. >> you mean we've done the vogue playout since then about the great assad an family? when did we decide they were our mortal enemies is what i'm saying? not a long time ago. >> syria has long been the spoiler in the israeli conflict. >> don't we have to blank our relationships with syria? which the soviet union as well. >> we never went to war with the soviet union. >> absolutely right. the question is, will this make a difference. the danger is that it doesn't. >> why are we taking sides? >> that is the question. what is the u.s. interest there. you can have a humanitarian argument that 93,000 people have been killed. mostly by the syrian government. so we want to try to do something to end that violence. >> they're trying to kill assad. >> just a second. >> the rebels are fighting the government. >> let me finish. >> that's why they're fighting. the question is not just if you give a gun they're going to use it. robin is right. who are you giving the gun to and why are they using it? are they going to be islamist extremist who's use the gun at somebody else or the stinger missile or whatever you give them somewhere down the line? you have john mccain running
around for weeks saying do something, do something, we got to have a war, we have to do something. >> he's not the president. >> he's not the president. >> for a reason. >> the question is, they still can't get their stories straight on who the rebels are and whether they themselves are worth getting in bed with. >> call me old fashioned. shouldn't we have a debate and a declaration of war before we go into another war? this is the fourth in ten years. we know iran is coming. just a reasonable national debate. we know overwhelmingly 3/4 of the american people don't believe in this. shouldn't that be a relevant consideration, or does the president decide when we go to war? >> almost 70% of the american public is skeptical about going in. >> so the president decides. we don't matter. we don't matter. >> it was interesting today that eric cantor put out a press release that said this is all the president must do something. this is terrible. the problem is he himself won't say what is to be done. they know what the polls are. they using this as a cudgel against the president. >> yesterday ben rhodes, number two or three in the national security staff, i don't know
what he is, has a conference call and announces we're going to an act of war against the government while the president is doing lgbt events somewhere because he doesn't think it's important enough to do it himself. this is weird. we used to have debate over war. we used to have votes on it using the constitution. now we let some staff guy announce on a conference call we're committing an act of war. it is unusual, robin. i know you're an expert in the field of the middle east. but politically, this is unusual. >> it may be unusual but remember, we're going in to a big meeting with the g-8, the world's eight industrial powers. >> are they going to vote? thinking will be a key decision, where we get our allies on board and what the russians do. >> i'm sorry. >> but the problem for the united states both republicans and democrats is that no one has addressed the issue of what it is that we want to achieve and how do we do it. once we get involved, do we then inherit the problem of what comes next and rebuilding syria? >> i got something here. i have visual memories in my mind, of an embarrassing
humiliating hanging of saddam hussein. we put that on our television and watched that. we're all growing up with this. how now we see a guy named gadhafi. he's hiding in a storm sewer and ends up there. what do we want for the assad family? how do we want this to end on our big day where our military involvement in syria reaches its fruition. a bunch of crazy people running around shooting each other saying we won, we take off the head of the assad family, and then what? what do we get out of this. >> afghanistan is a better example. when you look what happened. we supported the mujahideen. they went in and eventually we had a problem in afghanistan because we thought at the beginning we don't like the communist, the soviets, and this is a way to get involved. >> is anybody doing what i'm doing right now, questioning this involvement. >> angus king, you and angus. >> independent senator from maine. >> a spokesman for the rebels in syria today said small arms may not be enough. okay, they're making demands. quote, we welcome the decision, but it is a late step.
if they send small arms, how can small arms make a difference? they should help us with anti-tank and anti-aircraft and training and a no-fly zone thrown in. that's the assessment shared by some in washington. the "new york times" reported quote, many in the american government believe that the military balance has tilted so far against the rebels in recent months that american shipments of arms to select groups may be too little too late. why not let assad win, by the way? >> well, he may just win. this is not a good scenario. you don't want the region's most brutal dictator to stay in power at this stage. >> how about ten years of civil war, you complain and rightfully so about people being killed. suppose because we give small arms and we keep this war festering for another six months or six years or ten years, that a better outcome? >> the real danger is our involvement makes this not a war about the future of syria but a major powers around the world. >> my biggest concern. >> and then a civil war that plays out in the aftermath of
the -- >> okay. vladimir putin. sitting over in the kremlin sees all this talk about us being a lone superpower. he's not lone. he's not disarmed. he can give the syrian government of assad state-of-the-art aerial defense systems. we start talking about doing some kind of no-fly thing, all of the sudden we're at war with russian equipment. at some point he's going to say they want to upset the balance of power by giving more aid to the rebels, i have been holding back on giving the state-of-the-art aerial defense systems to the assad government. why don't i give it to them now. what stops him from escalating? >> they already have it. they already have it. since 2007. >> i just looked at "time" magazine. they said he's been holding back on this. >> he could always do more, that's for sure. he could do more. he could put troops. the question is whether we're going to let this be a proxy war for other matters. you raise the good question. what happens do, we want a civil war or not? it's interesting the israelis, and you probably know more than i, robin, they don't seem to be
rushing in to support the rebels. i think they actually want a ten-year long civil war between extremists and assad. to keep them all busy. this can really suck us in. you're talking about going up against iran. you want to warn iran, this would lead to a war with iran. >> maybe it's because i read history. i'm sitting reading the other day because i'm going to spain with my boys. i've been thinking about the spanish civil war and the both sides make into it a civil war, the fascists and the communists. try to find the good guys in that war. here's john mccain who as david mentioned recently wants a lot more aid to the rebels. here's mccain. let's watch. >> so i applaud the president's decision and i appreciate it. but the president of the united states had better understand that just supplying weapons is not going to change the equation on the ground, the balance of power. these people of the free syrian army need weapons and heavy weapons to counter tanks and aircraft. they need a no-fly zone. >> okay. let me be balanced in my presentations.
there is one root to the indies, one solution here. if we can isolate a rebel group and find the general who left the syrian government and is a credible leader and certainly a secular lead. >> and you're the expert on this, can we isolate the good guys to use a cowboys and indians term to win with assad, get him out of the country, send him to russia, end up in a transitional situation which is bloodless and we end up with a better government? is that possible? >> that's the best case scenario. is it possible? probably not. each one has its own liabilities. the problem is, how quickly can you do it, how many people die in the process. once we cross the threshold of giving arms, how much more do we get sucked in because we don't achieve -- >> you just saw john sucking -- >> militaries can't achieve the goals we want to, assad don't step down, the russians don't pressure, these are all things that everything has to come together at the right moment >> you don't think it's possible to have a good solution. >> it goes back to the world war i phrase. a penny and a pound.
once you start doing this and it doesn't work, john mccain goes back to the floor and says we want this. it doesn't work and you get more and more involved till final finally u.s. troops are confronting iranian proxies and it has the u.s. in a full war. >> jack kennedy said the same thing about vietnam. it's like drinking, which i don't do anything. you do a little thing you have to have more for everything, more for effect. >> if there was a good rebel force, it would make a big difference. >> we had a no-fly zone in iraq for five years and then still had to send in troops. >> sometimes your logic works against your conclusions, robin. you say we're not going to win. why should we go in? >> i'm not suggesting we should go in. i'm with you we need to have a national debate and discuss these things. i think we're reacting to a situation and not being proactive in figuring out what is our long-term goal, what is it that we want to do down the road. are we willing to invest in national treasure and american lives in directly or indirectly. >> and then rebuilding syria afterwards. >> that's right. >> if we had a draft in this country we wouldn't be talking
about going to countries like this. we wouldn't be talking to going to any of those. maybe afghanistan because they hit us. but after that, it's all wars of option. >> it's cost-free for the people making the case. >> army based on conscription, and the draft doesn't fight wars of option or choice. fights when it has to for national defense. i know i'm speaking about the american people here. robin, david, you're always great. have a nice father's day, brother. >> same to you. coming up, remember when darrell issa announced that in all likelihood the irs scandal began in washington. i love the way he uses that phrase. getting to prove it. where is that proof now? is it ever going to show up or is he going to keep screaming. the more we see an his investigation is coming apart right now at the seams. also, a who's who of conservative presidential hopefuls. and now here on bended knee at the faith and freedom coalition down in washington. but a thousand miles away and light years away in time and space in chicago, chris christie of new jersey is with bill and
hillary at the clinton global initiative. christie is known as a problem solver. so here is a problem for him to solve. how is hoe going to convince right wingers to nominate him for president if he is hanging out with bill and hillary and chelsea? time to invoke the mercy rule. the democratic congressional baseball team last night wiped out the republican team. 22-0. that makes five straight wins for them. what a winning streak. finally, let me finish with the need to accept that the obama people had nothing to do with the irs screw-up. so enough already. this is "hardball," the place for politics. [ banker ] mike's younger brother, kevin, had his college degree, his first real job, and needed to establish his credit history so he could rent a place of his own. mike helped kevin find ways to build his credit -- like any good big brother would do. now kevin has his own place, he's building his credit history, and mike has his apartment back -- for the most part. so i may be able to do this. yeah. [ female announcer ] let's talk about ways to help you establish and build your credit history.
when people talk, great things happen. ♪ now you can give yourself a kick in the rear! v8 v-fusion plus energy. natural energy from green tea plus fruits and veggies. need a little kick? ooh! could've had a v8. in the juice aisle. here's a statistic that shouldn't surprise anyone who watches this show on a regular basis. confidence in congress all time low. look, these are sad numbers. gallup asked about 16 different institutions, and only 10% said they had confidence in the united states congress are, which is at the bottom of the list. television news a little bit better. 23% approval. supreme court much better. 34.
much better. the presidency 36 of those approved. topping the list, no surprise here, the military, 76%. that's scary in a certain way. everything else is worse. confidence in congress is reached a peak in 1973 just as the watergate scandal was unfolding because congress did a great job there in changing the presidency. we'll be right back. . no! we're good! this is your first time missing a payment. and you've got the it card, so we won't hike up your apr for paying late. that's great! it is great! thank you. at discover, we treat you like you'd treat you. get the it card with late payment forgiveness.
the whole transcript will be put out. we understand these are in realtime and the administration is still, their paid liar, their spokesperson picture behind, he's still making up things about what happens and calling this local rogue. this is a problem that was coordinated in all likelihood right out of washington headquarters and we're getting to proving it. >> well, welcome back to "hardball." that was of course, house oversight committee chairman darrell issa vowing to release transcripts that according to him would prove that washington and by inference the white house had coordinated the irs targeting of conservative groups.
issa said he wants to expose, quote, the full truth, but his actions prove otherwise. case in point how he spun the excerpts he has released. on cnn as we just saw, he said that the transcripts proved that the irs officials in cincinnati were, quote, directly being ordered from washington. it was that ambiguity that opened up the idea that somehow officials outside the irs like at the white house were ordering the targeting. the actual transcript of that irs agent issa is talking about says, quote, i was taking all my direction from eo technical. that's eo technical, a unit inside the irs in washington. very clearly saying he got his leadership from the officials he works with at the irs in washington, not from anybody outside. although issa would love to say the phrase "washington" over and over again so the people think maybe he means somebody from the white house, maybe he means david plouffe from the campaign, something else nefarious. josh green from bloomberg business week authored a column today called "darrell issa's irs investigation is falling apart."
and nick confesori is a reporter for "the new york times." i'm struck by what comes across to me with what seems to be the integrity of elijah cummings, the ranking member from maryland, the ranking member on the committee that issa heads. he has said he's looked at all the transcripts of all the raw data, all the interviews with officials in cincinnati. he's come to the conclusion there's no evidence whatsoever there was any influence from the outside the ires, in other words, from the white house or any politicians to what happened there. call them whatever, screw-ups, whatever, bad management, whatever. yet, issa keeps playing this card of washington as if washington many applies something beyond the irs. your thoughts on the honesty going on here or dishonesty. >> just to clarify for your viewers, all of the irs tax lawyers are in washington. even the ones that work on a case by case basis with people in cincinnati who are not tax lawyers.
so when a troublesome case comes up, a tricky case, a case ha has law questions, they go to cincinnati -- i'm sorry, to the lawyers in washington. that's what that technical eo unit you were talking about earlier is all about. so we do hear this heavy-handed indication of washington, washington, washington. >> the sleazy intonation like in the war movies, call berlin, like there is some sort of washington or hollywood. now this case it doesn't mean washington generally, it means their head office. >> that's right. look, we've seen the selective release of transcripts. when i see them at first i think there's something there. you go back and look at the fuller transcript that was released after that. and the picture is a lot more muddy. it suggests a person in cincinnati consulting the lawyers in washington. what does this mean and then the lawyers in washington saying can you send us a couple of those cases so we can look at them. again, that doesn't mean something wrong didn't happen here. and it doesn't mean that these delays were unconscionable. but it's a very different
picture from the white house pushing a button, making a call and ordering this up from the irs. >> josh? >> well, the salient debate here, i think issa is trying to conflate two things. the idea that the scandal originated in washington, either under orders from somebody at the irs or the white house with the fact that as nick just said, of course there are irs lawyers consulting in washington. >> but he hasn't found -- correct me, has he found a witness within the irs that says i got influenced by somebody outside the irs? >> not that he's put out. >> wouldn't he have done that? >> well, yeah. and the piece i wrote is basically based on the fact that he said he was going to release these transcripts. he hasn't released these transcripts. the guy pushing him to do it is the top democrat on the committee cummings. >> i want to show you the timeline issa's behavior and behavior around him all along this and what you think is still left in his ammo, what he is going to do next. june 2nd, issa's extremely
limited release of interviews. he calls the white house paid liars. he says the full transcripts which he vows to release will prove that washington is the cause without saying irs washington or the white house. he keeps that foggy. june 6th, for politico newspaper reports house leadership had delivered a message to issa, cool it. last sunday in response to issa's selected disclosures, democrat elijah cummings, as you said, josh, releases other parts of the transcripts that directly contradict issa's assertions. cummings also vows to release the transcripts if issa won't. that same day issa changes his tune and says he won't release any transcripts and attacks cummings as reckless. yesterday cummings called issa's actions hypocritical giving him a monday deadline to review the transcripts before they're released. on the heels of the cummings letter, issa is widening his probe in addition to the 1 interviews he's done, his committee identifies 20 more officials for future interviews. so he keeps interviewing.
it's a fishing expedition. hoping has he got any hope or is he just playing for time here? >> at this point it looks like he's playing for time. the important thing is what cummings wants to release is the interview in cincinnati with an irs official who is a self-described conservative republican who says i'm the one who started this. so cummings -- >> i'm the one that said target the tea party, target the patriot groups? >> let's give these guys some -- if that's true, then the scandal couldn't have originated in washington or the white house. that's why democrats are pushing so hard to get these interviews released. >> nick, what do you tell your editors or people at the top of the "times", the best paper in the world, how do you tell them this story is only going to go so far until issa says uncle, and i don't have any hard evidence of obama involvement, or does he just keep saying i'm going to get it, like i'm going to prove it is a scandal when he doesn't have any evidence? >> it's important to stick to
the facts, right? we haven't seen as josh points out any evidence of white house involvement. look, i think it's appropriate. >> isn't that enough for the criminal trial or any kind of indictment? if you can't show any evidence somebody did anything wrong, don't you sort of stop saying they did something wrong? >> it was an important question to clarify. it was worth finding out because if the white house was involved, that would be a huge problem. but the next step should be, and this is the problem. congressional oversight shouldn't just be about scandal. had it should be about fixing the problem. there were problems with the process. they should go work on that and figure out next time. >> do you really think that darrell issa wants to be the guy who improves the reputation of the irs? no. he wants to run against government and blame them. >> chris, if only for the sake of the groups that were hit up in this, that waited years for approval, they shouldn't suffer. he shouldn't want them to suffer. no one should. >> what he should do, issa ought to declare victory and get out now. he can say look, i pointed to a
culture of poor judgment, bad communication, wasted taxpayer money with these silly conferences. >> he wants obama. >> right. but if he knows he' not going to get obama, they ought to get out now and move on to something else. say look, i exposed a problem. it's on the path to being fixed. >> study this guy further, josh, darrell issa. he is aiming for the big time. he couldn't get elected to the senate. he spent tons of money not getting elected. he thinks he can turn a house seat into the biggest deal in the world. he's doing it now because we're talking about him. thank you for that great reporting. up next, nancy pelosi and kathleen sebelius rock out with mary wilson, one of my favorites from my youth, the supremes. this is "hardball," the place for politics. ♪ you hurt my feelings, todd.
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what a sideshow. tonight it all came to a head last night for members of congress. the congressional baseball game at nationals park where the nationals play. republicans versus democrats. republicans went into the game with high hopes despite a four-year losing streak but it was not to be. way not to be. democrats dominated the night. how is this for a baseball score? 22-0. well, democrats had an edge with louisiana congressman and former college player cedric richmond as their pitcher. looks like he knows what he is doing out there, doesn't he? california democrat linda sanchez, the only female member to participate, was also a crowd favorite. >> let's go linda! let's go linda!
>> solid single for linda. anyway, yesterday marked the 56th annual game between the two sides. next, yesterday's tribute to michigan congressman john dingell who just became the longest serving member of congress in history took a turn for the musical. mary wilson of the supremes. my personal favorite when they the supremes came to holy cross back in the '60s serenaded the room with "stop in the name of" and called on nancy pelosi, kathleen sebelius and others to jump in as backup dancers. ♪ ♪ stop in the name of love, before you break my heart ♪ ♪ stop in the name of love ♪ before you break my heart ♪ think it over ♪ i've tried so hard so hard to be patient ♪
>> that's the music i listened to in the car driving home at night on xm radio. '60s on 6. anyway, there were about 400 people in attendance to take in that performance. congressman dingell who spoke at the event called himself the luckiest man in shoe leather for his family, friends and time serving michigan all these years. finally a couple of new roadblocks in the republican plan to attract more women and minority voters. what's causing the divide in maine's state legislature over accepting federal money to expand health care coverage? guess what? republican state rep ken fredette in maine thinks he solved the mystery. roll the tape. >> if you listen to the debate today, in my mind, a man's mind, i hear really two fundamental issues. from the other side of the aisle, i hear the conversation being about free. this is free. we need to take it and it's free. my brain being a man's brain sort of thinks differently.
because i say, well, it's not -- if it's free, is it really free? because i say in my brain there is a cost to this. >> his man's brain has it all figured out. his man's brain should have said don't talk about men's brains being smarter than other brains. we now turn to virginia and the state republican party's pick for director of african-american engagement, the reverend joel -- joe ellison. it looks like ellison might draw the wrong kind of attention. sample in 2010. pat robertson suggested that the earthquake down in haiti was a result of that country's pact with the devil made during a voodoo ceremony two centuries ago. well, reverend ellis son, the virginia outreach guy for african-americans, here's what he said at a press conference. >> i know this has angered a lot of the so-called liberals what
he said about the comment about haitians and from a spiritual standpoint we believe dr. robertson's points in the past with the voodoo. there is plenty of voodoo that cause a nation to suffer. those who study know about what said was doing the truth. >> what were the people doing listening to this nonsense? i'm reminded of the cole porter lyric "that voodoo that you do so well." up next the man who could save the gop. we think, i think, chris christie snubs the faith and freedom coalition. will conservatives snub him? you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. [ children] energy efficient appliances. you can get a tax write off for those. a programmable thermostat, very smart, saves money. ♪ cash money sorry. i see you have allstate claim free rewards, for every year you don't have a claim, you'll get money off your home insurance policy. put it towards... [ glass shatters ] [ girl ] dad! dad! [ girl screams ] noise canceling headphones? [ nicole ] that's a great idea.
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florida sports bar collapsed last night. about 100 people were watching the nba finals when the deck buckled. authorities are investigating. prince charles paid a visit to his father, prince philip in the hospital today. prince william and prince harry also stopped by. back to "hardball." >> we're back. over the past two days, politicians frequently mentioned in the same breath with the words "2016 republican hopeful" have been speaking to religious conservatives at ralph reed's faith and freedom conference. take a listen. >> the left likes to think that we are the fringe. guess what? you, us, we are the mainstream. >> we're facing a crisis on the family front in this country. the last census numbers depict that fact. 42% of the babies brought into the world today will be brought into the world out of wedlock. it is a breathtaking statistic
that describes family life in america today. >> today we have a culture that accepts the wanton disposal of millions of innocent children and sends aid to countries that persecute christians. i for one will not rest until this injustice ends. >> i for one will rely on my faith, the christian faith for guidance on things that i've often looked at both at times when discouraged and at times when i wonder why do i spend these days away from our family? why do you run for office when everything you know about politics tells you you can't win. why do you get engaged in political discourse because you disagree with someone on the definition of marriage, you're called a bigot or hater. >> there's one noticeable exception in that group, new jersey governor chris christie. he sends his regrets since he had another engagement. what was that engagement? appearing on the same stage as bill clinton out in chicago at the clinton global initiative conference. that's a surprising move for
someone who may have presidential ambitions which we think he does. christie's already seen as an apost state to some on the right given his relationship with obama forged in hurricane sandy. christie and obama sent spent time together on the jersey shore, recently to see how the recovery was going. he doesn't fit the mold of the modern day republican leaning to the right. that raises questions about his prospects come 2016 and what exactly his strategy is if he chooses to run. joy reed is an msnbc political analyst. susan mill began is a contributing editor for u.s. news and world report. i was thinking when you could win a republican nomination simply because you are the best candidate. then you come out of nowhere like wendell wilkie did at the philadelphia convention and stormed into the big convention out of nowhere, a former democrat and won overwhelmingly because everybody said this is the only guy on the planet who might possibly defeat franklin delano roosevelt. and he did give him a hell of a run. he was the best candidate.
christie with all his pizazz and performance over the years, can he come into a republican convention filled with christian right wing conservatives and win them as the best secular candidate to take on probably hillary clinton? joy? >> here's the problem for chris christie. and it was what paul ryan said. at the beginning of that montage. paul ryan told those people you are the mainstream. obviously chris christie disagrees. he is looking at the broader mainstream of the country, and he would like to run from something more like the center. but the republican base think they are the mainstream. the far right of the republican party, they're tired of waiting and being disappointed, included by ronald reagan, george bush sr., by george bush junior and broadly in the culture wars. he isn't playing in that arena so he can't win them. that doesn't mean he can't win them. that doesn't mean he can't necessarily get the nomination. if you look at the history, they didn't like mitt romney either. they weren't want savvy on john mccain. if the establishment wants
somebody, the establishment usually wins. >> how do they explain the fact that barack obama won and the fact that the senate is democrat? how do you explain the media which doesn't tend to be right wing except for fox? how do they explain that? why are so many people in their face disagreeing with them? the country's 80, 90% for some kind of background checks on guns. >> right. >> how do they convince themselves that they're the majority on these issues when it's so patently obvious that they're not? >> it's simple. they tell themselves a story and the story is this. all elections that are won by democrats are won by fraud. we didn't really lose. there was fraud and fake voters. >> that's what they do in third world countries. everybody stole everything everything. >> they don't believe the reality in front of their face. they choose to believe the reality on talk radio and fox. they choose to believe that reality. >> wow. how do you fix that thinking? that's pretty tough. i think i agree, because how else do you explain they want to run a suicidal campaign? >> look, there's been a lot of demographic changes in this country.
particularly in the last 20 years. when the tea party has the signs that says we want our country back and the pictures they hold up with the african-american president, the female speaker and the gay committee chairman, that's not an accident. so their panic over losing the world that they knew 30 years ago is greater than the panic that they have over not winning a presidential election. and as long as that is the case, i don't think they're going to nominate somebody like chris christie. >> you may be right. alex wagner's great show here today on msnbc, boy, a good guest, president clinton. she asked about christie's penchant for working with democrats like president obama. here's the political expert of the century here, bill clinton talking. >> in the culture of the northeast, if you're a republican and you want to get elected and get reelected by partisanship is imperative. in the sort of the way we've separated out our cultures, in the deep south and some of the intermountain west, if you want to do that, you get creamed. >> you know, he's amazingly
smart and he makes it pretty simple there. it's geography. i think he's right. joy? >> i think that's true in the actual governing of the country. look, we're in a post-governing phase of the american history. the republican party is no longer coming to washington to govern. they've come to serve this ideology they feel if it's not the majority should be and they want to dominate the country. if you think about chris christie's actual prospects, the nuts and bolts of winning a campaign, could he win new hampshire? sure. could he win south carolina, no. he could probably win florida. he does have the one thing he probably would need if he wants to be competitive. he's right near wall street. if the money wing of the party decides that chris christie is the best way to go up against hillary clinton, it's hard to believe that this right wing base could stop it, except, except that the tea party has proved that when they want something badly enough, they can take over the party, they can gum up the works, they can grab hold of it. >> you're so smart, joy. i'm going to ask susan first, who wins ohio, hillary versus christie? that's the state we can always
look at as the bellwether. >> i think hillary. >> can christie upset her? is it close enough? >> no. >> the union issue is so he fresh in ohio. >> you're making the point on the right, they might, as well have fun because they're going to lose anyway. they might as well run a real ringer, enjoy themselves, enjoy the joyride because if you're going to lose with a practical candidate like christie, why run him? >> because the tea party won in 2010 and the country got to experience them in swing states like ohio, wisconsin, michigan, i think those states are lost to them quite frankly, chris, because the people in those states have risen up and said we don't want to go this far. i think ohio, michigan, those states go back to the democrats. christie could have if we hadn't had the tea party. >> we're watching something live right now. there is christie and the former president having a nice chat. they'll make news for tomorrow. joy reed and susan milligan, thanks for joining us. we'll be right back. hase earns u 2% cash back, which is deposited in your fidelity account. -is that it? -actually... there's no annual fee and no limits on rewards.
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obviously this is a great way for us to celebrate father's day, and just to remind ourselves those of us who are fathers how lucky we are. it's the best job i've got. and i know that all the fathers here feel the same way. and the idea that we might get afternoon ice cream is always good. >> wow, it's father's day's weekend, of course. it's a whole new world out there for the american father. according to the latest statistics. just this week, golfer phil mickelson did really amazing, proved how father's are putting family first. he traveled all night before his first round at the u.s. open at merion country club outside
philly. all so he could attend his daughter's eighth grade graduation. he was no worse for the wear. he shot a 3 under par. 67. he's just off the lead. that's anecdotal. pew research has the facts about how much more involved today's fathers are in home life. catch this. fathers spend three times as many hours per people with their children as they did back in '65. 1965. and 7.3 hours per week is still about half the time mothers spend. by the way, i did the statistics. fathers even at their best, the new fathers with the kids about 10% of their waking life. so it's not dramatically better. they spend five fewer hours a week at work than they did in '65. fathers spend more than double the hours per week doing housework than they did back in '65. although, again, mothers still do twice as much housework as fathers generally. and one of the starkest changes, mothers are now the sole or primary breadwinner in 40% of all households. two out of five. in 1960, that was just 11% of the homes. that is a big change. women carrying the money load in
households across the country. joining me, two modern american fathers. msnbc contributor, former u.s. congressman patrick murphy of pennsylvania. and "time" magazine's michael scherer who wrote this week's cover story on the n sarsp an w were taken, michael, our producers and i with what a good father you are because you make decisions that don't necessarily help people at work, but definitely make your fatherhood more richer. >> yeah. i, well, i don't see myself as a hero here. i think i'd say that it's always a tradeoff. you can never do it all. you're either going to be hurting your work or going to be hurting your family and you have to make those decisions. you have to leave work and not do as good a job as you would do otherwise if you were single and able to stay at the office all night as i once was able to. >> women for years and they still do who work outside the home have this terrible tension which is, i'm at work, i should be home, i'm at home, i should be at work. >> i feel bad if i'm not home by 6:00. and i'm often not home by 6:00 and i feel bad. i mean, right now my family's
going out to have pizza. i will get there. i'll be a little late, but, you know, that pulls on you. every choice you make is a choice between one or the other. there's no way of doing it all and you have to muddle through it. there's no right answer. >> my dad always sitting at the table at 6:00, where's the dinner? only a different way of ruling back then. much more male dominant. i got to tell you. well, patrick, your happiness story, please tell us how you live and how you're a great dad, if you are. >> well, i try to be, chris. i think the key is that it's about quality over quantity. i mean, we all wish we could spend more time with our children. i have two little ones. maggie is 6. jack is 3. my daughter graduated kindergarten last week. i rushed from the studios in new york to be home for the 6:00 graduation. you know, it's a balance. you know, when you have a good partner, i have been very blessed. i have a great wife who also works outside the home. we balance it. and we're a team. and one's not more important than the other. and i think that the kids see that as a role model, to understand it's a partnership
and we love them and try to spend as much quality time as we possibly can. >> do you know all your kids' teachers? >> i do. mrs. morrison is a terrific teacher. >> you know their names. >> oh, yeah. toni morrison. >> i have you in the hot seat. do you know which shots the kids have had? >> me? >> do you know what shots the kids have had? i'm still on you. >> hey, no problem. so, listen, my wife will tell you, chris, i don't do enough. >> michael, do you know what shots the kids have had? these are my favorite questions. >> i don't know the shots. i've got the teachers. i actually spent today on a field trip with my older son. >> if you had to answer the question, which shots did your kids have? would you go to your wife? >> i'd go to my wife or the doctor. >> i take my kids to get the shots and especially my son, jack, who got his 2-year-old shots about a year ago, and to have to hold his arms down in the chair while the nurse is doing it. it is the worst feeling in the world, but you know what, you have to take care of the little
guy so he doesn't get sick. >> it's different. anyway, thank you. my dad was the hardworking guy, came home, mom did everything, kept the checkbook, everything. that's another one. who keeps the checkbook? i won't ask you that one. patrick murphy, thank you. michael scherer. good daddies for the weekend. i'm a grandfather now, do you believe it? when we return, let me finish tonight with darrell issa and his so-called irs investigation which is nothing of the sort. you're watching "hardball." the place for politics. i'm so glad you called. thank you. we're not in london, are we? no. why? apparently my debit card is. what? i know. don't worry, we have cancelled your old card. great. thank you. in addition to us monitoring your accounts for unusual activity, you could also set up free account alerts. okay. [ female announcer ] at wells fargo we're working around the clock to help protect your money and financial information. here's your temporary card. welcome back. how was london? [ female announcer ] when people talk, great things happen.
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let me finish tonight with this. i like to say something about this thing at the irs. if elijah cummings is right, it's not a scandal, it's more like a screwup. if it's all about something that happened in the irs, itself, and that's the way it looks right now, if there's no reason to believe the obama people were involved in singling out the tea party and patriot groups looking for tax exempt status, then let's be honest, everyone, and say so. isn't that the fairer thing to do, you know? innocent until proven guilty? or is there a new rule across this land that you can keep accusing someone of something as long as you darn well please, as long as you have a mike in your hand or a committee chairmans p chairmanship, spew out charges until you drop. well, if that's the game, the rule of fairness, of truth, of common sense, is out the window. if all you're doing is calling names, you're no different than the bully in the high school recess yard. the bully who mocks and humiliates and is the worst memory from our youths. the person who is everything that's wrong in human life.
the kid we try, and if fortunate, are able to leave behind in human society's backwash. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. all you dads out there have a happy father's day on sunday. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayess and thank you for joining us. tonight on "all in" when john mccain rushed to the senate floor last night to pound the drum for military intervention in syria, one u.s. senator tweeted his surprise using ththe the #strange world. that senator joins me tonight. also tonight if you combined karl rove with the koch brothers then let them run your state, it would look a lot like it does in north carolina right now. i'm going to introduceou