tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC July 3, 2013 12:00am-1:01am PDT
watching the tennis tournament with his son. he's survived by his equally impressive wife, andrea. he showed the one way to rise is to seek to rise and essential to becoming a leader is to ask people to make you theirs. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. good evening, from new york. i'm chris hayes. tonight on "all in" a high-stakes international drama playing out tonight as the airplane carrying the president of bolivia has been forced to reroute and land in austria. why? because of reports that nsa leaker edward snowden had been smuggled onboard when the plane left moscow. that story is coming up. also tonight, right now it is is quite simply one of the largest protests in all of human
history. what we are witnessing in egypt is a very delicate situation, on the verge of total chaos. we'll go live to cairo for the very latest. plus, super awesome helicopters. they're super awesome and they're super expensive and for some crazy reason, they're jammed into the immigration bill in one of the craziest pork stories i've seen in ages. but we begin tonight on this. the 49then anniversary of lyndon b. johnson signing the civil rights act into law. bill moyers wrote on that night, july 2nd, 1964, he found lbj who just signed one of the most monumental and morally elevated pieces of legislation in this country's history in, a quote, melancholy movement. when lawyers asked him what was troubling him, the president said "i think we just delivered the south to the republican party for a long time to come." 49 years later that prediction looks spot-on in the state of north carolina where the republican party gained control of both of the state's legislative and executive branches for the first time
since 1870. that all-republican government of north carolina is making good on lbj's prediction. legislatively trying undo the gains of the civil rights act, politically catering to those who saw themselves being on the losing side of that landmark law. yesterday we received further confirmation from the chair of the state senate rules committee who said republicans would be moving forward with a voter i.d. legislation next week. north carolina will join the republican government of texas and the republican government of mississippi in rushing through voter restriction laws on the heels of the supreme court's voting rights decision. according to a "los angeles times" report, north carolina freed from the voting rights acts preclearance provision, well in addition to working on a voter i.d., work to end early voting which 2 million people, mostly democrats, took advantage of during the last election. eliminate same-day registration. and end sunday voting.
now, the context of this is that the republican party in the south, in particular, is, well, it's a party of white people. a party that has, frankly, every incentive, strategically, to maximize levels of white turnout and minimize levels of other turnout. that's more or less the tactic the republican parties of the south have taken, certainly in north carolina, sparking massive protests in response. those suppression tactics were not supposed to be the strategy of the national republican party. particularly after the clock cleaning they received in 2012. because all of us across the spectrum in the days and weeks after that election looked at the exit polls and all saw the same results. barack obama won latinos by 50 points, asians by 47 points and african-americans by a cool 87 points. they also saw that mitt romney actually won about as much of the white vote as george h.w. bush did but lost the election because the 2012 electorate was 13% less white than the 1988 electorate.
and so observers of the republican party concluded the party was going to have to change. >> the future of the republican party, hispanics are a crucial voting bloc, so what will republicans do to bin them over? >> we've got to get rid of the immigration issue altogether. it's simple for me to fix it. that is in a position that i've evolved on. >> the first thing that we need to do is we need to be, you know, forward leaning on immigration. >> the republican party is going to have to ask itself if the hardline position mitt romney assuredly took during the primary season to win this election, hardline law and order position on immigration is a position for them. >> thus was formed the gang of eight and marco rubio's rise to republican stardom as the man who could bridge both worlds. now with the most comprehensive immigration reform staring them in the face, republicans and center right are beginning to rethink their logic. they're starting to think maybe, just maybe we can just get by on white people. much of this recent thinking has come straight from sean trend of
"real clear politics" who has written a series of extremely influential pieces about, quote, the case of the missing white voter which he has dangled in front of depressed republicans the tantalizing possibility, they can win elections if only those missing white people showed up. republicans started to think to themselves, if only we can get enough white people to the polls. then we don't have to sign this immigration bill that we don't like and even yet we don't have to, better yet, we don't have to pander to latinos. you're even hearing that thinking from relatively respectable talking heads like brit hugh. >> i am absolutely convinced this trope you're hearing saying if republicans don't go for immigration reform, much as the senate has done, they're going to be -- they'll never win another presidential election. oh, baloney. if you look at the statistics, you find there was one
significant bloc of voters who turned out in major numbers, below expectations, below their '08 turnout and that was white voters. >> think for a second what the modern republican party already looks like before it made a collective institutional decision to further embrace white voters. this is what republican voters looked like before they decided to really put their backs into becoming the party of white people. just imagine what that party is going to look like after. joining me now is tim carney, senior political columnist at the "washington examiner." all right, tim, you and i have gone back and forth on this a little bit. tell me where you are in terms of just as a descriptive matter of where this debate is inside republican and conservative circles, because i am seeing it play out and i feel like the "trend" article has been influential. >> there's this underwear arguments coming from barack obama, right? help barack obama get an immigration bill that includes
amnesty so he can have a signing ceremony. step three is. very few republicans are convinced by that. a lot of republicans just sort of assert that. what we really is the industry, the k. street, the chamber of commerce pushing for something that will bring in more workers and that will help business. this cuts against the idea of trying to get the missing white voters. because the missing white voters aren't the southerners that you spent the opening talking about. the missing white voters are people in pennsylvania. in ohio. all the way down to nevada. who are working class whites, who feel left out by both democrats and republicans. >> so this is a fascinating analogy. first, take them in steps. i completely agree, here's what i would say about the marco rubio thing. i agree passing comprehensive immigration reform, with republican votes, marco rubio at the signing ceremony, that's going to turn the boat around
for latino voters. i agree that is magical thinking. what i do think is this, having the house republican caucus kill this bill when the hopes of 11 million people are on the line will be absolutely deathly destructive for a long period of time with that bloc of voters. don't you think that? >> yes. and this is one reason that rubio bringing it up was, i think, stabbing his own party in the back because you give this great opening for the people to attack republicans as being racist, as hating hispanics. republicans ought to be trying to get more hispanic and more black voters in. not just to win more votes, but because a good party will have lots of different voices and lots of different perspectives contributing to it. the way to do it is not to hand the president some victory on
immigration. that's my view there. i do agree that the missing white vote is a relevant factor because you look at how the republicans turned away these working class whites because that's who it was. >> let's talk about that for a second because the missing -- when i hear let's go after the missing white voter, i start to think, oh, lord, what would it look like if the party says, man, we really have to cultivate a sense of white motivation and white grievance and get to the poll. "trend" actually makes an argument, it might not be as horrible as you think when you hear that. >> in fact, right before this, i was listening to chris matthews misstate it. it was not that there were these hardcore conservatives who stayed home because romney was a liberal. sure, romney was a liberal. more importantly, romney was this country club millionaire who talked about how 47% of the country couldn't possibly vote republican. so you have the people who spent the last four years under obama not doing well. wages, median wages are stagnating. unemployment is down. meanwhile, corporate profits are at a record high. >> right. >> biggest banks are even bigger. so you've got the working class voters who are staying home who
aren't going to vote republican. working class voters who are black and who are hispanic, they have a home in the democratic party just because naturally that's the way the parties line up. working class voters who are white, they don't have a home in the democratic party if they're not already liberals and look at romney and didn't have a vote there. so the way to go after the working class voters, i think, is a free market populism. it's saying obama-nomics like a lot of bush-nomics was enriching the well connected. government is growing. government growth is enriching the well connected. >> this is interesting. this is the third path out of this wilderness would be a class war of populism. there's the ross perot example that "trend" cites. breaking three of the kind of donor class of the gop to get there is going to be very difficult. tim carney from the "washington examiner" who does battle against that donor class every day in those pages. thank you so much. >> thank you, chris. joining me now, state representative larry hall, a democrat for the latest on what this republican governance looks like on the ground in north carolina. representative, my first
question for you is, were you surprised by the alacrity with which the republicans in north carolina moved to push these voting measures or announced they would be moving them in the wake of the voting rights decision? >> well, no, and good evening, chris. certainly they've been trying to do this for the last two sessions, so because we had a democratic governor last session, we were able to sustain her veto of these efforts, but they're back and they're ready to go to do what they've always wanted to do. restrict the right of people to vote. >> what are the arguments that they are making? i mean, the arguments generally that republicans will make in this context is about voter fraud. empirically, that is essentially nothing. it's really minimal anywhere. but how do they make an argument -- i want to play this -- i was thinking about how you make the argument about banning sunday voting as if sunday is a day particularly susceptible to fraud. and here's state rep bob steinberg giving his argument for why they should ban sunday voting. >> i'm just opposing to voting on sunday. i'm opposed to hunting on
sunday. sunday's the lord's day. >> technically saturday is the -- >> do you take him at his word that that's why he wants to shut down sunday voting? >> well, it doesn't make sense. certainly hunting is not a right guaranteed in the constitution and one that we swore an oath to protect. so apples and oranges, whatever you want to call it, it seems to be an irrelevant comment. again, the numbers bear out why they want to keep people from voting on sundays. they know that's a traditional effort in the african-american community to have folks go out and vote. so that's something that's been successful and people are exercising their right and they want to stop north carolinians, in this case, from exercising their rights. >> so if you're running the north carolina republican party, and you have no conscience whatsoever, you're just -- you're just making decisions completely amorally, it seems to me the calculation is you want to maximize white turnout, you want to minimize turnout for people who aren't white. that's just in your basic interest. and you want to cater to that
group of people that sent you there to try to hold on to that majority. what is going to break that logic for the north carolina republican party? >> well, nothing is going to break that logic. i think they're in what you would commonly call a death spiral. that's the only option they have. the policies they have will not appeal to the working families. it will not appeal to those who want to be upwardly mobile. and they're destroying our education system. so the values they brought and the promises they've made are not being kept. they've only got a war right now on folks who want to vote and want to exercise the franchise and they plan to keep folks away from the polling place except for a select few. >> when you look at what's going on in texas with the battle there over an antiabortion bill, what happened in ohio with the budget there, and there's just been word that another bill that's working its way through north carolina in one branch of the statehouse is now going to get a vote, it looks like, in
the senate possibly tonight. how much do the folks that you represent in your constituency, how alert are they to this onslaught from the republicans in your state? >> well, i think you said it right and that's an example. what they're doing in the senate tonight. they took a house bill, stripped it out, added language that was objectionable and policies that are objectionable that aren't relate to the deal. they forced it out of committee, and they're going to vote it tonight and vote it tomorrow before people two on the fourth of july vacation, so the public does not have a chance to know what's going on. so it's not a matter of the public necessarily not being attentive. it's more a fact that they're hiding what they're doing and going to get out of town before the public can react. >> north carolina state representative larry hall. thanks so much. >> thank you. just a little quota on that, that bill if i'm not mistaken began as a bill to ban sharia law and then was turned into an antiabortion bill which looks like will thousand be voted at around midnight tonight and voted on again tomorrow before people leave for the break. think about that.
coming up, the hunt for edward snowden had a pretty dramatic action scene tonight. you do not want to miss this story. that's next. ♪ and i'll never desert you ♪ ♪ i'll stand by you yeaaaah! yeah. so that's our loyalty program. you're automatically enrolled, and the longer you stay, the more rewards you get. great! oh! ♪ i'll stand by you ♪ won't let nobody hurt you ♪ isn't there a simpler way to explain the loyalty program? yes. standing by you from day one. now, that's progressive.
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♪ your ticket to a better night's sleep ♪ up next the hunt for nsa leaker edward snowden took a real dramatic turn tonight. right there. that turn. that loop. there's an airplane carrying the president of bolivia that was forced to turn around mid-flight and land in austria because snowden was suspected to have been on the plane. that amazing story is next. and later, we finally found out why republicans want to spend an obscene amount of money on border security. it's because they want some really, really expensive toys. that's coming up.
breaking news tonight in the hunt for nsa leaker edward snowden who has reportedly been holed up in moscow's airport for a week now. the "associated press" reporting tonight that the plane carrying the bolivian president from russia back to bolivia was rerouted over suspicions that edward snowden was onboard presumably being smuggled away to bolivia to seek asylum. president evo morales' plane landed. france and portugal refused access to their airspace. bolivia's foreign minister released a statement denying snowden was onboard the president's plane. "we don't know who invented this lie. we want to denounce to the international community this injustice with the plane of president evo morales." bolivian officials are demanding answers from france and portugal as to why the president's plane was not allowed to cross into their airspace. at this point, the french prime minister's office tells nbc news they have no comment, no
confirmation nor denial on the incident. joining me now on the phone from rio do janeiro, glenn greenwald, who broke the story in "the guardian." my first question, your reaction to this remarkable series of events. i've never heard of an example of a plane carrying a head of state being denied access to airspace by other countries that were not in some kind of active hostilities with that nation. >> it is extraordinary. i mean, the premise of this behavior presumably was that snowden was on that airplane because bolivia had decided to take him back to bolivia to either consider or grant him asylum. asylum is a centuries-old right in international law, and what this would essentially mean that western countries like portugal and france and presumably working cooperatively with the united states which is the one that really wants snowden, no
longer recognizes amnesty as a valid concept of international law and forcibly prevent other countries from granting it. it's really rogue nation behavior. >> but here's -- to play devil's advocate for a moment, right? you have someone who's been federally charged. there is a complaint filed. it cites which part of u.s. law. and the u.s. has asked countries that have extradition treaties for him to be extradited to them. this all seems like fairly standard insofar as any country that has a felon they are seeking who is abroad is going to want to do what they can to make sure they can get him back into their country so they can bring him to what they see as justice. >> i don't actually agree with that, chris. most or many people who are given asylum by western nations are people who are charged with crime in the country which they're fleeing. and from which they're seeking asylum. so if we accepted this premise that any time anybody is charged in a court of law with the country that they're fleeing
from, that it means somehow asylum is invalid or that country is within its rights to take any steps it can to prevent that person from obtaining asylum, it would essentially be anarchy and the end of asylum. it is true mr. snowden has been charged in a federal court but there's lots of people in the united states who say there's an unjust warrant on whistleblowers being waged by the obama administration. the wikileaks whistleblower, subjected to cruel and inhuman treatment. bolivia under international law has every right to consider by taking him back to bolivia and essentially use the law of the jungle which is what france and portugal are doing by blocking them physically from doing that is really quite an extreme act. >> glenn, let me ask you this, there was a statement posted on the wikileaks page yesterday under the name of edward snowden in which he talked about what he plans to do. he heard he applied to asylum in 21 countries, noticeably not
russia. after vladimir putin made a statement saying snowden shouldn't make things hard for our friends in the u.s. there were a lot of people who felt like the syntax and the voice of that statement did not sound even like a native english speaker. i'm just curious when you read that statement what your reaction was to it. >> i -- i -- of course, i'm being speculative here because i don't know who wrote it or who influenced it. it seemed to me like the core ideas were very much consistent with how edward snowden thinks, but that it was sort of flavored with some person who isn't edward snowden. if you -- i think all the world really knows about him in terms of how he expresses himself is the video. >> is that video, yeah. >> that was made of my interviewing him. and he's very mild mannered. very soft spoken. even though his ideas are very emphatic.
so the idea he won't accept asylum in russia if he's not allowed to continue to leak, the idea that he thinks the u.s. is being extremely unjust in its treatment of him. those are all consistent with his philosophy, but i agree there was sort of a virulent tone to it that didn't strike me as his own. he's in a pretty stressful situation seeming he seems to be in suspended animation in an airport. who knows what effect that has on someone. >> i have to say, i was reticent last night when the same was issued to know if it, in fact, had anything to do with edward snowden because he's in the moscow transit lounge as we've been told and it's impossible to know through what intermediaries he's communicating or what he is saying because none of us, of course, can confirm that. glenn greenwald from "the guardian" joining us from rio do janeiro. >> thanks, chris, appreciate it. you know the website where some guy posts grocery lists he finds? this really exists. republicans have just made a
immigration reform bill. this bill also directs the government to buy everything from drones to night vision goggles, to high-tech surveillance systems. in other words, this piece of legislation turns out to be an absolute goody bag of giveaways to the entire defense contracting industry, including 15 black hawk helicopters at $17
million a piece. four drones of $18 million each. and a cost of up to $3,500 an hour just to fly them. six airborne radar systems at more than $9 each and eight american eurocopter helicopters coming in. we learned this from a great piece of reporting in the "washington post" known as actually reading the bill. was all hiding in plain sight in the text of the $38 billion corker/holden border surge amendment crafted by two self-professed fiscally conservative republicans. this is something of a surprise to people like us. the people in the room crafting this legislation, they knew exactly what they're doing. here's a tip off from the industry publication a day after the bill passed. here's headline. billions slated for drone chopper surveillance.
senator patrick leahy who called this amendment a christmas wish list for halliburton was warning the whole time that corker and holden were smuggling this into the bill. >> there are federal contracting firms high fiving at the prospect of all the spending demanded. our friends on other side of this amendment. >> this goes to show one of the single most important cardinal rules of the united states congress. it's a rule i learned when i covered it day after day when i was washington bureau chief for "the nation" magazine. whenever someone says the word "security, watch for your wallet. we'll be right back with #click3.
as millions of egyptians continue to protest and as egypt's military stuck to a dead line for him to step down, egyptian president mohamed morsi was defiant on state television tonight. we'll go live to cairo with all the latest details and amazing images coming up. first i want to share the three awesomest things on the internet today beginning with four decades of fashion immortalized in a school yearbook.
garland, texas. 1973, he was told to wear something nice on school picture day. this is what we wore. on picture day the following year, he put on the same exact polyester shirt and sweater vest. he tells "the dallas morning news" he felt embarrassed when he realized he repeated outfits. his wife, cathie, dared him to go for a hat trick. after wearing the combo five years in a row, he thought, why stop now. year after year, he wore the exact same outfit for class photo day. after 40 years of teaching, the beloved mr. herby has retired. mr. herby's style will move on. second awesomest thing on the internet today, to jolt you awake. for folks who like to ease into their morning, new york's local cable station new york 1 offers a gentle fix. a guy will read to you what's in the papers in a segment called "in the papers." imagine if you were surprised
when this happened on their tv set. >> here we go. ♪ >> that was new york 1's roger clark reporting on tonight's u.s. air guitar semifinals all while demonstrating his own rather impressive chops. and the third awesomest thing on the internet today, mitch mcconnell may not want to ruin his record, but that won't stop him from offering up funky fresh beats. allison grimes is daring to go where ashley judd wouldn't. however, judging by her rollout, she might want to rethink her strategy.
as the "washington post" reports, grimes' announcement was not promoted on her twitter account, facebook page or anyone other than her top adviser. as of this afternoon, grimes still has a campaign website. that's why her opponent, the always conciliatory and courteous mitch mcconnell has stepped up to the plate, not only introducing his opponent to voter, new ad, but giving her an auto tune at the same time. ♪ >> well, apparently mcconnell's staff was too busy thinking of things that rhyme. check it out, they didn't bother to spell check their boss' name at the end of the ad. just a little typo. if this is their idea of proofreading, i'd hate to see their research. find tonight's #click3 on our
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today, after days of protests by an unprecedented number of egyptians, a nation at the very heart of the arab spring, 60 years of authoritarian rule, came crumbling down on all our television sets bringing about a democratically elected government. today, the nation of egypt is once again threatening to explode into chaos.
the current president, mohamed morsi of the muslim brotherhood, defied a military ultimatum, given to resolve the political standoff or face the military's own roadmap toward a solution. in a lengthy televised statement, president morsi angrily said he will not step down and will protect his constitutional legitimacy with his life. morsi said, "there is no substitute for legitimacy, but today opponents of the elected muslim brotherhood government called their supporters to the streets yet again and came by the millions, largely dwarfing counter-protesters called out in support of morsi's government. today's protest featured a laser light show which oftentimes showed words in english about what protesters hope is morsi's ouster. some are calling this the largest mass protest in human history. an estimated 14 million people taking to the streets in a country of 84 million people.
president obama traveling in africa was once again put in the position of deciding whether to pick a side or hold back and let this very uncertain process unfold, even after secretary of state john kerry last month approved $1.3 billion in aid to egypt. president obama called president morsi urging him to listen to the voices of all egyptians. >> so we're going to continue to work with all parties inside of egyptian to try to channel this through legal, legitimate processes. our position has always been it's not our job to choose who egypt's leaders are. we do want to make sure that all the voices are heard and it's done in a peaceful way. >> now with morsi saying he's staying put and protesters still in the streets, all eyes on the military to see just what happens next. nbc news foreign correspondent ayman mohyoldin is live tonight in cairo with the latest. ayman, there was a lot of concern today, violence on the
streets, both sides, opposition protesters and pro-muslim brotherhood supporters called to be on the streets. what played out on the streets of egypt today? >> reporter: there have been a few different pockets of protests taking place across the capital and other parts of the country. in cairo, itself, the main anti-morsi protest has been in tahrir square. there's been one also outside the presidential palace. and in another part of town, the supporters of president mohamed morsi have held their own rallies. now, in and around the areas between these two major gatherings, there have been scrimmages. in fact, ministry of health officials this evening say there have already been at least three people killed in clashes outside of cairo university. now, at cairo university, there was a group of protesters who were actually in support of president morsi. they are alleging that police did not protect them from attacks carried out by thugs. and so in the last couple hours, particularly since the end of president mohamed morsi's
speech, there has been an uptick in violence that many people feel is a result of the building tension in these final hours before the ultimatum. >> the ultimatum which the military has issued, i would even say not with authoritatively, but on somewhat dubious authority, other than the fact they are the military, this ultimatum they've issued, my understanding is it expires around 10:00, 11:00 a.m. our time tomorrow morning. what are people anticipating in the next 12 to 24 hours? >> reporter: well, at this particular point, we really have no clear indication what is going to happen. local egyptian media with sources in the military have been suggesting that the military has already prepared this roadmap. the roadmap would involve a series of short-term and long-term steps. among the short-term steps would be the announcement that the constitution has been suspended. that the parliament will be dissolved and that elections in the long run would be held. now, to get the government back
up and functioning, a caretaker prime minister would be appointed. perhaps one from the military. an officer, perhaps. or certainly somebody the military approves of that would be made up mostly of a technocratic government. they would then be responsible for running the day-to-day affairs of the country while a committee of experts prepares a new constitution that would then pave the way for presidential and parliamentary election. what would happen to president mohamed morsi, what would happen to senior members of the muslim brotherhood, freedom and justice party? what would happen to the political opposition and the protests? all those questions remain unclear. we do know the military has deployed some additional resources on the streets. there are more police present in and around areas that could be possible flashpoints including the large protest. as of right now, nobody has a clear indication what will happen once that ultimatum is actually reached at 4:00 p.m. local time. as you mentioned, around 10:00 a.m. eastern time. >> ayman, when the first round
of protests broke out that ended up ousting mubarak from power, there was a broad perception, my understanding from my reporting, there was a broad perception the u.s. was slow to back protesters that essentially stood with mubarak. what is the perception, now, about where u.s. is in this particular standoff? >> reporter: if you were to ask those in tahrir square, those that have been campaigning against president morsi, there is no mistake about it. the united states has once again stood with the wrong leader in this equation. for the past year, many people have been criticizing how the united states has systemically warmed up to the muslim brotherhood. more so in recent days, ahead of this big protest. on sunday the united states ambassador here in cairo, ann paterson, made some very controversial remarks that angered a lot of egyptian local media saying that the protests were not necessarily going to amount to anything. in fact, many people interpreted
her comments as lending legitimacy to the presidency of mohamed morsi saying he was democratically elected, but more importantly, he was capable of getting the job done. so a lot of local media took her to task. more so, the protesters and activists have been very critical in terms of how the united states has not exercised more influence over the course of the last year in trying to make sure this country takes proper transitions to democracy. >> nbc's ayman mohyoldin. thank you so much. really appreciate it. more on the u.s. role in egypt and the question of whether we are in danger of, as ayman just mentioned, ending up on the wrong side of a popular movement for the second time in just a few years. when we come back.
kick him out? >> no, hopefully we'll have a proper constitution and a proper parliament that will give us the democratic means of impeaching this president. right now the country is built on no foundations and a president that is doing a very bad job. so you don't have democratic means of impeaching this president right now so this is all we have. >> that was an egyptian protester speaking with nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel. joining me, an egyptian activist and columnist. and associate professor of middle eastern politics at the university of oklahoma. i want to start with you. you're living in egypt now. you've been very involved in the protests from the beginning. what gets 14 million people in the streets, like why is everyone so angry, and why, and maybe this shows my own ignorance, but it seems kind of all the sudden that this has sparked. explain to me why we saw a galvanized action. >> mohamed morsi has spent the
last year since elected to president during this transitional period, at every step. last november, tremendous powers to himself that allowed him to rush through a constitution that is utterly horrendous and incredibly unfair to the revolution and the egyptians that paid with their lives for this revolution. he consistently attacked his opponents. he sent to jail, in detention, activists. he's even hounded comedians like yusef who is described as the jon stewart of egypt. he made it impossible. you have an extra 1 million against him in the streets. >> that's great. >> which says to me egyptians just like this young man said, because they don't have institutional means of impeaching him. the economy is on the brink of collapse. unemployment is terrible. torture is more now under morsi than it was under mubarak. so we're looking at him saying, how can you help us in this transition? >> all right.
so here is where -- i'm watches this unfold, reading it. at one level i have zero love for the muslim brotherhood, and the way he's acted as a quasi authoritarian figure. it's not the greatest thing for the development of egyptian democracy for the first democratically elected government to collapse within a year under the threat of essentially a military coup. how should i be feeling about this as an american liberal watching this unfold? i want someone to tell me whose side i should be on as i watch for this outcome. >> well, i think your emotions are spot on. i mean, clearly the side that you should be on is the side of the people and the popular will. and i think that is demonstrated in the people in tahrir protesting as well as the people protesting in front of the presidential palace. but your torn ambivalent feelings are correct because
here we have a paradox. we have a supposedly democratic movement calling for the military to intervene to oust a democratically elected president in order to restore egypt on the right path to democracy. clearly there are some difficulties here. the difficulty is not only with the idea that morsi might be removed but then what happens to the muslim brotherhood and other islamist groups in the future? now, i share the feelings completely with regard to morsi's abysmal leadership and presidency. she also mentioned the economy has deteriorated. there are daily fuel shortages. electricity outages. he's done none of the things he's promised to do. at the same time, however, you cannot exclude any significant elements of the population that is willing to participate in formal politics. so, you remember what happened in algeria. not that it's going to happen in
egypt, but when a military pushed aside democratically elected islamists, the salvation front, that led to a civil war of horrific proportions. that's not going to happen in egypt. how do you integrate the muslim brotherhood into the politics? >> here's the thing i kept thinking about, i would not want to be the person who wakes up every morning for the egypt portfolio for the u.s. government. if i could get in a time machine now and talk to some american in 2003 and said, check this out, in ten years the u.s. government will be viewed by the most populist arab nation in the world being close to the political islam party. you would be like, are you out of your mind? somehow it now perceived at the u.s. and muslim brotherhood of all people are in bed together. >> it's hugely ironic. i sat on a panel with madeleine albright a couple of days ago.
this horrible word, stability, kept coming up. the u.s. administration and the people who advise cannot get over that stability must not come at the expense of the people. 20 years ago, 30 years ago i would have told the administration, make sure there's enough space in the middle for people who aren't either the military or muslim brotherhood to be the only powers in the country. we're now the third point of that triangle and the military must understand that people will not allow return to military rule. >> if you could sit down with the president for 15 minutes and tell him how to play the next 12 hours, it seems like a real difficult thing to navigate. what would your advice be? >> well it's clearly a difficult position. the first thing mr. obama has to realize is the united states' influence on egypt and other countries in the region is significantly less than it was before. in the past it was a phone call to an autocrat who was not
accountable. egyptians and tunisians and yemenis are making their own. secondly, i think mr. obama hasn't, and it was pointed out earlier, hasn't put enough pressure on mr. morsi up to this point to behave in a democratic fashion. clearly he needs to be putting pressure on mr. morsi but also needs to be telling the egyptian military that receives $1.3 million of american largesse every year that we will not tolerate what we saw before with regard to autocratic politics and military's involvement in domestic affairs. there needs to be some process that produces civilian democratic pluralist politics where all egyptians are equal, regardless of gender, religion and so on. >> what you just said right there, your two-pronged answer is the contradiction i always here. point one, the u.s. has to recognize it has less influence. point two, the u.s. needs to exert pressure to make sure this outcome happens. that seems like what we face here as we watch the countdown
toward the ultimatum tomorrow morning. egyptian activist here with me at the table. thank you both. that's "all in" for this evening. the "rachel maddow show" starts right now. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. there's a lot going on in the news right now, there's a lot going on in our show this hour. to egypt in a few minutes. we're going to get to the surprise republican sneak attack in north carolina tonight. which nobody saw coming. and which launched late in the day and took everybody by surprise. we're going to get to our interview tonight with texas senator wendy davis. she's here live. there's lots to get to. we start tonight with an unexpected turn in republican politics in our country. there are basically two different kinds of embarrassing when it comes to politicians. i mean, beyond physically embarrassing. remember when gary bower was flipping pancakes at a candidates event? catch -- oh -- there he goes.