tv The Daily Rundown MSNBC July 3, 2013 6:00am-7:01am PDT
that seems implausible. totally different from my house. >> i learned david axelrod is a hot dog expert. happy july 3rd and 4th to those of you watching. john heilemann, if it's way too early, what time is it? >> time for "morning joe." it's the daily rundown. go, go, go. >> we'll pick it up from there. good morning to you from sanford is, florida, just outside the courtroom where george zimmerman is on trial. it is wednesday, july 3rd, 2013. this is "the daily rundown." i'm craig melvin in for chuck todd today. right now, you are looking live inside the courtroom where we expect the jury to be brought in momentarily. right now, the attorneys are wrapping up a hearing on whether george zimmerman's school studies in criminal justice can be brought up in court. prosecutors are hoping to show that will zimmerman was familiar
with florida's semifinal defense laws hoping that will help them bowl center their thoroughly zimmerman was a quote, wannabe cop. they've been at it for about 308 minutes now. the state as you can see perhaps using om power point slides to try and make their case. the defense, of course, wants to exclude the evidence including coursework and transcripts of classes that zimmerman took in college as well as his job application to the prince william county police department and there was an application to ride along with sanford police. joining me now legal analyst lis za bloom from burbank and veteran prosecutor paul henderson who joins us live from san francisco. lisa, let me start with you. this, of course, is where we left off yesterday essentially. the state wanting to get these pieces of evidence in to try and bolster their claim that george zimmerman did have a thorough
working knowledge of police procedure and that might have helped explain why he used certain language like i unholstered my gun, i didn't take my gun out but i unholstered my firearm. that will fox interview they played yesterday where george zimmerman said when asked pointedly, did you know about the stand your ground law in florida and his response was no. why is this evidence, lisa, so key, so crucial for state? >> well, you're absolutely right. he's fluent in cop speak. and so when he speaks to the police officers, he uses their language. i holstered my firearm. the suspect -- i was trying to keep a visual on the suspect at all times. that may explain why law enforcement was so lenient with him at least at the beginning. he the prosecution says he's lying about semifinal defense and he would have to have to
come up the lie very quick. they say because he was so familiar with law enforcement and the law generally, he was able to come up with that story immediately, tell that story to the miss and stick to it all the way through trial. paul, the application to become aisle cop in prince william, virginia, the application for the ride along, why are those two pieces of evidence, why would they be so crucial from the state's perspective? >> it shows you his strong desire to work with the police department and be i apart of law enforcement. this is part of the framework that motivated him because they really want to paint as strong a picture as possible to the jury of who zimmerman was as he came into that night when the they had the confrontation. having these documents and having this evidence that they can introduce and show the jury helps them paint that picture and it's particularly relevant because we don't know the if zimmerman is going to take the trial. the more information that the
prosecutor can present to the jury to give them a perspective or insight as to why he did what he did, it makes their case that much stronger or that much better because it gives them a foundation if they don't have -- they can't force him to come onto the stand which they can't. we just don't know if he's going to take the stand yet. >> you know, and mark o'mara talked about that dhgeorge zimmerman could take the stand. o'mara saying at this point, the defense still hasn't decided. take a listen to some of the other things that he said. >> i think that the state may be done tomorrow or friday. and that means we'll start either friday or monday and we'll probably take most of next week. it's hard to say, baby not. we have a lot of witnesses we want to present to the jury to counter some of of the innuendo or suggestions or allegations thrown out there by the state. we're going to put on a case. >> lis za bloom, when the state
starts to put its witnesses or excuse me, when the defense starts to put their witnesses on the stand, who do you think we hear from? and at this particular point, any chance zimmerman takes the stand? >> i think the chances are very, very low. i'm sure his attorneys behind closed doors have said, we absolutely do not remind that you take the stand. why? there's no advantage for the defense. his story is already out there on video, the jury jurors have already seen it. why subject him to cross-examine that's going to tie him up in knots further. i want to give the defense perspective on this wan nan be cop theory. we've seen multiple cop witnesses testify on cross-examination that they like being a cop. they think it's a noble profession. they like helping people to protect and to serve. it was really meaningful to them. i think the defense is going to try to turn all that wannabe cop stuff around and saying there's nothing wrong with him having an interest in law enforcement. he wanted to do what some of the state's witnesses just do for a
living. >> paul, again, right now, folks, we continue to monitor the courtroom this hearing started at 8:30. once this hearing is over, judge nelson is expected to make some sort of decision with regards to whether this evidence will be admitted. paul, based on what you know about the evidence and based on the arguments that you heard yesterday and what's happening right now, based on the years of experience you have, as well as a prosecutor, what are the chances that the state gets this evidence in? >> i think it's a tough call right now and it could go either way. they're not making a quick ruling. the judge has taken more time to evaluate the law. this morning we're hearing the arguments back and forthing from both sides. i think it's a close call. it's going to come down to whether or not the judge is going to find that information more probative than not or prejudicial against the defense. one of the things that lisa brought out and i agree with, that the defense is going to try and turn that information around and say that there's nothing wronging with law enforcement.
i think the prosecution is going to try and counter that and say there isn't. but he was not law enforcement and this is the problem. with his mind-set and his frame of mind of trying to be law enforcement, he acted inappropriately and that's how he committed the crime. that's where i think it case is going and those are the arguments that i think you're going to hear. >> lisa, talk about mark pa os t ter -- osterman. called by the state and we learn not only is friend of george zimmerman's. he says he's the best friend he's ever had. i want to play some sound from osterman yesterday and talk why it was the state put him on the stand yesterday. take a listen and talk about it on the other side. >> the defendant quoted as saying somehow i broke his grip on the gun when the gun grabbed it between the rear sight and the hammer, correct?
>> could have been the leather. could have been the gun. >> i think you quoed him on page 29 then. refresh your memory if you need to. >> correct. >> as under quotations, somehow i broke his grip on the gun when the guy grabbed it between the rear sight and the hammer. >> that's where the leather strap is though. that's what holds the gun in. >> so the defendant is claiming that the victim actually grabbed the gun, grabbed -- >> that was my understanding. >> lisa, first of all, what did we learn yesterday from mark osterman. >> overall he was good for the defense because he's george's best friend. ooze the best friend i ever had he said multiple times. everything he said was certainly an effort to support george zimmerman. but the prosecution got a couple good things out of him. i think you played really the most important one which he says george zimmerman told him trayvon martin wasn't just reaching for the gun which we've heard from previous witnesses
but now his story is trayvon martin actually put his hand on the gun. that means there might it be fingerprints or dna evidence. if nothing else, the prosecution has another inconsistency to use against george zimmerman. >> paul, what do you make of that from yesterday? this idea once again that here's another version of precisely what went down with regards to the gun being grabbed, to the gun being touched? did he go for the gun? what do you make of all that? >> i got a lot of calls and people were asking why would the prosecution put him on in the first place. you've just raised that issue. but what i believe why the prosecution put him on was just what lisa alluded to, this is more corroborative bill zimmerman's story. again, we don't know the if zimmerman will take the stand. so the prosecution wants to make sure that they will have every version of his story that he told to the police officers on the scene, that he told to investigators afterwards. that he mentioned to the media, that he talked to his best
friend about to get all of that will stuff out there and in front of the jury so that they can dissect it with other witnesses and their argument and they'll have a clear foundation of what he was communicating and where he stood on then whole subject matter. that's why they put him on the stand in the first place. one of the things that hurt the prosecution though was all of the crazy talk that he was mentioning that kind of humanized zimmerman telling everyone that he was his best friend. he was the best friend he ever had and sharing personal insights about how his wife was reacting and the family. >> and talking about being detached after the shooting, talking about just talking about his condition after the shooting, as well, right? >> correct, all of that humanizes him a little bit and makes it seem like maybe this is a real story. maybe this is something that's true. and if this guy believed it, even though it's his friend, maybe there's some credibility there. so the real challenge is going to be coming up and following up with that information with the testimony from like the medical
examiner or with the argument from the lawyers where you're going to see each one of those errors in the story being brought out to light and highlighted as a problem and something that indicates guilt. >> you mentioned the medical examiner. i want to play a piece of sound from yesterday. this is dr. rao, the medical examiner who looked at the pictures of zimmerman's injuries, not the same medical examiner obviously that conducted the autopsy. >> correct. >> on trayvon martin. we expect to hear from that medical examiner either today or tomorrow perhaps. but i want to play a' piece of sound from dr. rao. here it is. >> are the injuries to the back of the defendant's head consistenting with having been repeatedly slammed into a concrete surface? >> no. >> why not? >> because if you look at the injuries they're so minor that to me, the word conspiracy slammed" implies great force and this, the resultant injuries are
not great force. >>. >> so lisa bloom, there's dr. rao again basically saying first of all, the injuries aren't that bad. the injuries aren't significant and based on what i've seen, it can loos as it if his head was slammed not multiple times but just one time. was that the state's best witness yesterday? >> i think so. she's a medical witness. jurors tend to like scientific experts. she certainly is up with. and you know, the defense has been putting up those photos of george zimmerman's bloody, the back of had his head and the front of his face with his nose bashed in over and over again. sometimes at end of a court day, you'll see them putting up over and over trying to leave the images with the jurors. she did a good job of undercutting some of that. she said for example the lacerations on the back of the head are very small cuts. yes a lot of blood was dripping down immediately afterwards but
that doesn't mean the cuts are significant. that's consistent with most of our experience. sometimes we can get a small cut that bleeds a lot. by the time the blood stops, you put a band-aid on it, it's not a big deal. the defense has been backtracking a little bit from george zimmerman's story that his head was slammed on the ground repeatedly. that's what he said right after the incident. the defense through the cross-examination of some witnesses has said maybe he was panicked and exaggerated unintentionally because he was so scared. chris serino conceded maybe that's possible. i think that's where the defense is going to go in closing argument. yeah, he probably thought he was being slammed to the ground a couple dozen times but maybe it was just a few times. that doesn't mean that he's a liar. i think that's what their argument will being >> paul, valerie rao was also one of the few witnesses that seemed to hold up pretty well under cross from mark o'mara yesterday, as well. >> i thought she did a really good job. she was very strong. and was a very good witness for
the prosecution. particularly since this is one of the first times that we're starting to see from the prosecution a witness that comes on that stands and presents i have had that is in direct controversy the version of the story that zimmerman has told again and again and again. and the fact that she was very clear that these were not life-threatening injuries, that they were insignificant, that it was outside of the realm of possibilities that he was hit again and again and again with the sidewalk, that's pretty significant and i'm sure you're going to hear more about that from the prosecution as they start making their arguments towards the end of this case. >> again, folks, we should tell you right now, we're waiting for the jury to be brought in here in sanford florida, attorneys for the state and the defense are arguing before judge nelson right now. the state trying to get in some evidence that in their. >> pam: would demonstrate that george zimmerman was a wannabe cop. trying to get in some coursework and again, this has been going on for about 40 minutes now.
we'll keep our eye on the courtroom. when we come back, we'll take a look at some of the other bignous of the day. egypt, of course. egypt continues to be on the edge. the military's deadline for president morsi is now less than two hours away. and again, much, much more from florida and the george zimmerman murder trial as we wait for the jury to enter the courtroom. you're watching "the daily rundown" on msnbc. la's known y for its traffic, congestion, for it's smog. but there are a lot of people that do ride the bus. and now that the busses are running on natural gas, they don't throw out as much pollution to the earth. so i feel good. i feel like i'm doing my part to help out the environment.
zimmerman had a thorough working knowledge of police procedures. i've also just been told that judge nelson has decided that all of that evidence is going to be allowed in. and we also expect to hear from the first witness in just a few moments. the jury is going to be brought back into the courtroom in just a few moments, as well when all of that happens, we will, of course, bring it to you live right here on ms nbc. again, judge nelson ruling that all of that evidence is going to be admitted. meanwhile, in egypt, a deadline set by the military for president morsi to come up with a solution to the escalating political crisis is now less than two hours away. the military is expected to issue a statement shortly before that. morsi at this point has shown no indication he will resign. but protesters are trying to force his hand. richard engel is nbc's chief foreign correspondent with more from cairo. >> reporter: egypt is increasingly divided and it's breaking up along what could be
very dangerous lines. here in tahrir square, there are still protesters demanding that egypt's islamist president mohamed morsi from the muslim brotherhood step down. they claim he's incompetent, he's a radical. they claim for the last year he has not only driven the economy to ruins but encouraged more islamic positions in the society. but across town in other parts of cairo, there are supporters of morsi who say that he was the legitimate little elected president one year ago. and that removing him could cause clashes, could cause violence. we've already seen some of that violence overnight between 16 and 25 people were killed. they were supporters of president morsi, and they say they were attacked by police and hired thugs and rd cooing to videos posted online, live ammunition was used. then in all of this, enter the army. the army says unless this standoff is resolved today, it could intervene to act.
potentially by force removing president morsi. so far on the streets, we respect seeing any signs of a possible coup. no thanks, no occur fuse, just these rice offing tensions. >> from egypt to russia where ked ward snowden has reportedly requested asylum from 20 different countries but has not gotten a green light from any of them. nevertheless, there was a new twist in the case overnight amid rumors he had managed to flee russia. jim maceda with the latest from the moscow. >> edward snowden has done it again. it wasn't a bombshell leak. this time it was just a rumor that snowden had hitched a ride on bolivian president iva morales presidentialal plane where he was visiting on business. that triggered a major international air incident when france, portugal, italy and
spain closed their air space reportedly forcing the pilots to circle aimlessly for about three hours before finally getting permission to land in ehenin, austria where snowden was not found to be on board. that left bow libyans on the flight and back at home stunned and angry. they're now blaming the whole incident on the u.s. calling it "an adepression" and have asked the u.n. secretary-general for an plains of that incident. after a night spent inside the airport, permission was finally granted to the bolivian plane and pilots to take off at around 6:00 a.m. eastern. so far there's been no direct comment on the incident from the state department. morales is one of a handful of world leaders who support snowden's current quest, if you will, for political asylum. and bolivia is a top contender to let snowden in. if it does, this latest incident could be a taste of what's to
come. back to you. >> all right, jim maceda for us there in moscow. we're going to take a quick break right now. just to update you, judge nelson here infer sanford, florida, just moments ago ruled that the five pieces of evidence, these five pieces of evidence, these five pieces of evidence, the transcripts of zimmer pan's courses at college, his course work that discussed semifinal defense law, the application to become a cop and his application to ride along winning sanford police, the judge ruling the five key pieces the state wanted to get in will be admitted. we'll go back inside the courtroom after a quick break. >> time for the your business entrepreneurs of the week. dave and neil warnlged warby parker to shake up the world of prescription eye wear starting with the price. what we gan as a purely online
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from the jury being brought back into the courtroom here in florida. there's a ten-minute recess. lisa bloom is monitoring the trial for us from burbank. veteran prosecutor paul henderson joins us live now from san francisco. and again, guys, i'm sure as you just heard there, judge nelson deciding to admit all five of the pieces of evidence that the state was trying to get in there. lisa, how significant of a win is this for the state? >> well, it's a small win for the state. i don't think any of the jurors are going to convict george skimmer man based solely on the fact that he took criminal justice courses or wanted to go on a ride along with local law enforcement. it's another piece of the puzzle. what a prosecution has to do in this case which is a circumstantial case or any circumstantial case is add all of these pieces of evidence together. they're going to say he's a wannabe cop. we've heard that in opening statement, that he took the law into his own hands, that he's a
vigilante, that the police told him not to follow trayvon martin. nevertheless, he took it upon himself to follow martin. that he was the initial aggressor and set the events in motion and should be held legally responsible for it. i think these five pieces of evidence that show his interest in law enforcement helps them to some extent. >> paul, one of the arguments that the defense attorney mark o'mara was making during the hearing that lasted about 35 minutes is basically if we start to look at zimmerman's past, whether it be as a student, whether it be as a wannabe cop, then we may also have to start looking at trayvon par tin's past, as well. what's the likelihood that we start to see some of that evidence, some of that information brought to light now? >> well, they've been arguing that for a while. quite frankly it pisses me off. this is not about trayvon martin. it's not his trial. he's the victim. he's dead. so you're not going to, or i
would argue very hard to keep out all of the information about trayvon martin because whomever people thought he was beforehand is irrelevant to this trial. what matters is what happened when zimmerman had the interaction with him on that night and in that moment. and what he knew at that night and in. that moment. nothing else is really relevant. and right now, i think it starts to get towards and drift into some of the more dangerous areas where we're talking about affirming or denying some of the stereotypes associated with trayvon martin and that causes me great concern as a prosecutor. that's exactly where i'd like to see this trial not go. and so i have real concerns about that. it's absolutely relevant what will zimmerman's background was. particularly as he went out of his way to learn about law enforcement, to be a part of law enforcement, to participate in law enforcement at, to participate in law enforcement
activities because one of the things that the prosecution is going to show is that he was not law enforcement. and so even though he may have tried to participate in these law enforcement activities, he did not have the full training. he did not act appropriately. he was not an officer. and quite frankly, he did things that a trained law enforcement officer would not have done and that an individual and a civilian should not have done. that's the whole point of arguing and trying to get this information in. and then the secondary issue of why. >> things like what, paul? >> the things like him going and trying to apply for a job with the police department. things like taking these classes associated with law enforcement were all so he could groom himself, so he could learn, so that he could behave as a law enforcement agent or an officer. and that's why you see him adopting language like law enforcement. you see him trying to behave like law enforcement. we heard his best friend was in
law enforcement. but at the end of the day, george zimmerman was not law enforcement. at the end of the day, george zimmerman acted inappropriately from a law enforcement perspective. and we have the clear record of that have, you know, where we have the controversy be him being told not to follow, that he didn't need to go and case down trayvon martin or get out of his car with a loaded weapon. all of these things matter. this is why this information from the prosecution is going to make a difference and why they fought so hard to try and get it in and introduce it so they could show this conflict to the jury. i don't think it's going to be a major win and it's going to be the turning point for this case. but i do see and i do understand the significance as a prosecutor why you would want to introduce this to show one more lens, one more layer to understand who george zimmerman was and yes may have acted inappropriately and quite frankly, why he may have acted in a way that made him
guilty in the eyes of the jury when they hear it. >> paul while you were speaking there, we saw george zimmerman walk back into the courtroom. it appears as if judge nelson is about to start court for the day. at this point, we do not note which state witness will be called next. lisa, but at some point, we will obviously be hearing from the medical examiner that conducted the autopsy on trayvon martin. what should we be listening for specifically from that will medical examiner when she testifies? >> the injuries or the lack of injuries on trayvon martin's body and i have reviewed the autopsy report. it indicates that there is a small cut on one of trayvon's fingers. that will bullet hole that took his life. other than that, no injuries. he seemed to have been a healthy 17-year-old boy. and that's something that i think both sides are going to use to argue to their advantage. there's no question that george zimmerman took the life of
trayvon martin that night that he shot and killed him. he admitted that immediately. this is not a whodunnit. it's a why did he do it kind of case. the defense will take the lack of injuries to show that george zimmerman was not the aggressor. if as rachel jeantel says is he jumped trayvon martin so trayvon is saying get off, where are the injuries on his body to substantiate that? there's not there. so i think both sides are going to take the autopsy report and try to use it to their advantage. i would say one other thing about martin's background. the judge has ruled it's not admissible unless somebody introduces evidence that would indicate that that evidence should come in. things like trayvon mar tip's girlfriend, was he seeing somebody besides rachel, are was she just a friend? that's completely irrelevant. but the defense is going to argue whether or not trayvon martin will a propensity for
violence is relevant to show the defense side of things that trayvon martin attacked george zimmerman. that's their story. i agree with paul henderson for now that's out. the judge has said it's not relevant. it's not coming into the case because really the only issue is what was in george zimmerman's mind, what did he know. he didn't know the anything about martin's background. craig? >> all right. lisa, right now, judge nelson has given the injury their instructions for the day. and we are awaiting the next witness. the state's next wit ness to th walk into the courtroom. the judge asks the jury whether they've been on social media and whether they've talked about the case. now there's a woman walking into the courtroom. this is the state's next witness. this will be witness 29, by the way, for the state. of trying to find out -- this is
sonnian melvin i understand, is that right? >> son yap bolles martin is about to take the stand again. a witness for the state. we're going to listen in here to some of the testimony. >> you may proceed. >> marnlgs please do me a favor, spell your name for us and tell us who you are, where you work and what you do. sure apply name is son yanl m. boles melvin, s-o-n-j-a-b-o-l-e-s- -- m-e-l-v-i-n. i am the register for seminal state college of florida. >> what is a registrar. >> responsible for all of the educational records, academic records of the institution. >> i assume that your institution keeps academic and institutional records? >> correct. >> i'll show you what has been marked as states exhibit 209 for purposes of this proceeding.
do you recognize that document? >> i do. >> is that the type of record that is ordinarily kept in the course of your institution's business? >> yes. >> and does it pertain particularly to the defendant in this case, george zimmerman? >> yes. >> now, there are two sort of sections along with this. if i may, your honor. >> yes, you may. >> the first is what i'll call a grade change form. do you see that? >> i do. >> okay. >> and this was actually subm submitted for a particular course in a particular department. what is that department? >> legal studies. >> and it is course of which title? >> criminal litigation. >> okay. and the second is a diploma or certificate application, also in the name of the defendant. can you tell me, is this something that -- when would a person fill out a form like this? >> when they are ready to be awarded a degree from seminal
state college. >> they fill this out to ask to apply for a degree? >> correct. >> tell me when, a, when this form was filled out and b, if you can tell, when the degree was actually supposedly going to be conferred or was being requested for. >> okay. it looks like mr. zimmerman applied for graduation during the term fall, which would have been our fall commencement. and he applied on october 17th, 2011. >> so that was when he submitted the application. does it tell us when he was requesting or thought he would have the degree? >> yes. he thought he would graduate by spring, 2012. >> okay. >> thank you, ma'am. no other questions, your honor. >> thank you.
cross? >> no, thank you very much. >> may she be excused? >> yes, your honor. >> thank you very much, ma'am. you are excused. >> i would move to admit state's exhibit 209 into evidence. >> that was sonja boles melvin. but she is the registrar at seminole state college. the state wasting no time pursuing this line of questioning that judge nelson just decide was, in fact, admissible. lisa, did we get anything there? what did we get there? >> that was the quickest witness so far, wasn't it, craig, we've seen in this case. she was brought in to get the records into evidence. trial attorneys need to get evidence in through a witness. so the witness takes the stand and says yes, these are the appropriate records.
it shows george zimmerman took the criminal litigation course. that's about it. the sum total of her testimony. no cross-examination. >> she was quicker than the latent fingerprint expert from yesterday. the state calling witness number 30 now, walking into the courtroom. we're waiting to find out precisely who he is. let's take a listen. >> please go ahead and spell your name for us, tell us who you are, where you work and what you do. >> lieutenant lieutenant scott kerns, police, last name spelled k-e-a-r-n-s-. i'm currently assigned to operations. prince william county police and prior to that, i was the bureau commander for the prince william county police personnel unit. >> prince william county where, sir? >> in virginia, sir. >> and does the prince william county, is there a particular name of that agency? are you city police, the county mr. is? >> it would be county police.
>> and does that is agency normally keep records of people who apply for jobs in that agency? >> yes, sir. >> jobs both civilian and as a police officer? >> with the police department, yes, sir. >> and if your capacity as the manager of the personnel unit, would you be the person who would normally i'll call a custodian of records of that type? >> yes, sir. >> how long does the prince william county police department keep the actual applications or records? >> in accordance with the vap records retention act, what we do is we keep them for the mandated three years and after which time it's standard practice for us to destroy the records that have period. >> were you asked to investigate whether you had any records as it relates to an application to become a police officer in prince william county by the defendant in this case george zimmerman. >> yes, sir. >> were you able to locate the actual application? >> no, sir, it was destroyed. >> i'm going to show you what's marked as state's exhibit 211. and do you recognize this exhibit, sir? >> yes, sir.
>> okay. what is that? >> that's an extract of what we do is after beat destroy -- are you talking about the first document? after we destroy the records after the period of three years, we create a very cursory amount of information on the record that was to be destroyed. basic information, name, address, date of applied, et cetera. and additionally, we also accepted out a letter for those individuals that are not considered further into the process. we send them a dated letter with my name at the bottom regarding their status and they're not going to be considered. >> in this case, what was the date that have letter? >> the date was july 8th, 2009. >>. >> now, lieutenant, i'd imagine you get a lot of people who apply. >> yes, sir. >> okay. so is there anything unusual or sinister about just people not getting the job as an officer?
>> no, sir. >> okay. thank you. no other questions, your honor. >> cross? >>. >> i would move at this time state's exhibit 211 into evidence. >> it will be admitted, state's exhibit 211. >> morning, kearns. >> your positioning is because you're a sworn police officer and have full privileges as such? >> that's correct, sir. >> are you currently serving in any kind i have investigative capacity? >> no, sir. >> it's more administrative? >> i just recently changed assignments just over three days ago. i'm now the watch commander for the western district evening squad. but prior to that, i was with the personnel bureau. >> so it's not uncommon i take it within a given police department to change hats from
time to time? >> no, sir. >> maybe patrol, maybe investigator, maybe behind the desk? >> yes, sir. >> how long were you in the administrative position prior to your current an sipment? >> six years, sir. >> so you were the administrator then at the time mr. zimmerman applied? >> yes, sir. >> do you have any -- you have to copy of his application, i take it? >> no, sir, it was destroyed. >> and you couldn't tell me, for example, who he used as a reference on his application? >> no, sir. >> you don't have a personal memory of the contents of the application itself? >> no, sir. >> because as he said you get a lot of them. >> yes, sir. >> a lot of people want to be police officers. >> yes, sir. >> as did you, obviously. >> i did. >> so if i understand the process then, there is an application, obviously.
and then under your records retention policy after a period of time, the actual record is destroyed and there is a brief extract or excerpt from the application or from the process rather. >> that's correcting >> in this exhibit, which is marked as 211, you are certifying here that you are the records custodian. >> yes, sir, i am. >> and that what's taped to it is a business record? >> yes, sir. >> i notice, for example, that it's not on letterhead. and it's not signed. and it doesn't have any more information on the document other than the actual written contents of it. >> that's correct, sir. >> this isn't a copy then of the actual letter that was sent in the mail?
>> it's not the actual copy that was destroyed. that's the -- that's the document that was used to create the original in terms of later my signature was placed on it along with the letterhead. >> this would have been basically been the word processing document that was printed? >> yes, sir. >> and you don't have a specific memory of reviewing or signing this? >> no, sir. >> this is just one among other documents that are kept in the system? >> yes, sir. >> and then this other page of the document, if you can see it well enough from here just to help me know what it is, is this the extract you're talking about? >> yes, sir. >> and in this extract, it includes of course, mr. zimmerman's name and social
security number and his address at the time. that would be the address at the time he filed the application? >> yes, sir. >> it would indicate that ethnicity. >> yes, sir. >> it would indicate gender? >> yes, sir. >> is that what that means? "g"? >> i'd have to -- some of them were rather an believiated and cryptic. >> yes, sir. that's correct. >> "g" would be gender and then mr. would be mr. >> yes. >> a guy? >> yes, sir. >> spanish? >> that would be any languages spoken other than english. >> so that it would indicate that mr. zimmerman's by lingual. >> it would indicate that he stated that he knew another language other than english.
in other words, we didn't confirm that so -- this is all semifinal disclosed information on the application. we just transpose it onto the spread sheet. so we didn't validate anything in terms of his spanish speaking skills. that was semifinal disclosed. >> i see. well as would be the birth date and the social and everything else, right? >> well some of those things can be confirmed up front, the driver's license, et cetera, but spanish would be an actual test that would be performed later in the process. >> i see, got you. and then at the end, there is a column that says "coll comma, credit history of"? >> yes, sir. >> do you take that to mean that mr. zimmerman had a problem with his credit? >> yes, sir. >> and that would be a reason why you wouldn't be accepted as a police officer? >> that's the reason why we did not consider him further based on that record, yes, sir. >> it makes sense if you think
about it, doesn't it? because a police officer who has credit problems would be vulnerable to criminals, wouldn't they? >> possibly. >> they could be put in compromising situations where they may make a bad decision because of their financial concern? >> yes, sir. >> so if somebody has bad credit because of their age and not having a clear established work history or any number of other reasons that shows up as bad credit, he would be, in fact was rejected? >> yes, sir. >> so that would mean, i take it, that when his is credit got better where he was able to fully address that issue to the satisfaction of the department, he could reapply? >> it's possible, sir. >> in can the fa, you know of people that have applied once, been rejected, maybe applied again, even with other agencies and ultimately gotten on? >> yes, sir.
>> may i have just a moment? >> okay. we're going to take a quick break right now and take you back inside the courtroom in just a few moments. but again right now, don west cross-examining lieutenant kearns lo is with the prince william county, virginia, police department. more live from sanford, florida right after this. all this produce from walmart and secretly served it up in the heart of peach country. it's a fresh-over. we want you to eat some peaches and tell us what you think. they're really juicy. it must have just come from the farm. this right here is ideal for me. walmart works directly with growers to get you the best quality produce they've ever had. what would you do if i told you all this produce is from walmart? wow! is it really? (laughter)
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all right, right now we're listening to zimmerman's former teacher testifying. this is captain alexis francisco carter. this is the teacher that taught zimmerman criminal litigation at seminole state college in the spring of 2010. he says zimmerman was a student in his class and got an "a" as well. let's take a listen. >> i'm showing you what is in evidence now, marked state's exhibit 210. is this a sort of subsection, very small section of this very
big book? >> yes. >> okay. >> that's the chapter specifically pertaining to what? >> self-defense. >> okay. and the second part of state's exhibit 210 is what? >> it's e-mail, homework assignment from george. it was the first homework assignment that i gave to all the students. >> and is that the rest of it actually additional homework assignments? >> yes. >> state exhibit 210 into evidence at this point. >> are you moving the book or the excerpt? >> just the excerpt in. >> okay. it will come in as composite exhibit 210. >> thank you, your honor. >> talk to me a little bit,
professor, about what kind of student you remember the defendant to be. >> you know, as you always kind of remember your smartest student or the one that set out the most. the one that probably wasn't the best student, and he was probably one of the better students in the class. >> you mentioned that -- we talked about state exhibit 210 as an excerpt from the book about self-defense. obviously you were teaching this course in florida. tell me what sort of things you addressed as it relates to the law of self-defense in florida. >> right, so, you know, the way the book is compromised, obviously the publishers aren't from florida, they didn't put florida specific things, but i wanted to teach a class from a practical standpoint where the students can relate and take something from it and apply it to their own lives. in florida and other states they have what's called the stand your ground law, which evolved from the castle doctrine through
case law. >> and did you cover that specifically? >> yes. >> did you discuss specifically self-defense and stand your ground laws in connection with violent crime such as murder? >> yes. >> did you address the particularities of -- strike that question. bad question. professor carter, what can you tell us about how long you spent as part of that course covering ideas like self-defense and stand your ground? >> right, you know, self-defense is a affirmative defense, a big self-defense. not one of those things you're just going to whisk through in a day or after you teach it you're going to neglect from bringing it back into the classroom. so it was something that i constantly it rated. >> again this is captain alexis
carter. he taught a criminal law class. george zimmerman was a student, just described zimmerman as one of the better students in the class. also, confirming that they did cover stand your ground in that class as well. you might remember in an interview played before the jury yesterday, zimmerman said that he was not aware of stand your ground. before this, there was lieutenant kearns with the prince william county sheriff's department. lieutenant kearns saying that -- telling us that zimmerman was not allowed to become a police officer there because of problems with his credit. that's it for this edition of "the daily rundown." msnbc will have continuing coverage of the george zimmerman trial coming up next on msnbc. "jansing and co." up next. stay with us. we've made a decision. great, let's go get you set up... we need brushes. you should check out our workshops... push your color boundaries while staying well within your budget walls.
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prosecution, will allow jurors to hear about zimmerman's studies in criminal justice and efforts to become a police officer. on the stand now, as you see there, a lawyer who taught a course that zimmerman had taken. let's continue to listen to what is being said. >> so even though there might be thousands of individual facts, it could be just one or two that may have significance? >> well, no. all facts have significance. generally look at things from a totality of the circumstances. but there are certain things that, you know, through case law, that have been seen to give more weight. >> sure. the totality of the circumstances is you look at the sum total of the evidence, i take it, and then also apply common sense. >> right, right. reasonable person standard is what is generally referred to. >> in fact, interestingly, it is the rea