tv MSNBC Live MSNBC July 3, 2013 8:00am-9:01am PDT
i'm thomas roberts. good to have you with me as we're watching two developing stories this hour. first, court is about to resume any moment in the george zimmerman second degree murder trial after a short recess. and then in egypt, this hour, a deadline for egypt's president mohamed morsi to come to terms to his political opponents or face the military stepping in after days of deadly protests there. as you can see, the crowd swell in tahrir square waiting for something to happen at this being the witching hour that the military gave the president the ultimatum, do something to calm the people of egypt or we will force you out of power. joining me now on the phone is hishel and also joining us from cairo is richard engel. let's talk about the crowd swell we have seen. we are at the tipping point, the hour that the military gave mohamed morsi the ultimatum to
fix this or be removed. it doesn't seem as if we have any indication of which way that is going to go other than morsi last night saying that he was defiant of this and wasn't going to be going anywhere. >> reporter: there is also a statement from morsi today that -- in which he's trying to offer a concession. he's saying that he's willing to form a new government, a government that is more inclusive, that he will listen to advisers, and that he threatened that breaking the legitimacy of his office could lead to a deterioration of democracy. a very similar kind of statement that we heard from president morsi in his televised speech last night this one was a written statement, but judging from the crowds who are here, that message, that latest offer to be more conciliatory, to be more inclusive by president morsi, certainly not being received here in tahrir square. there are tens of thousands, perhaps several hundred thousand people at this stage here at
tahrir square. the mood is very upbeat. there is not much work going on in this country right now. a lot of government offices, people aren't going to their jobs. several major sectors in society, while they're not on strike, people are going home early. there is a lot of tension. so with so many people either out of work or taking the day off, the streets are packed and many of them are still coming in to tahrir square, carrying flags. it is hard to know there were that many egyptian flags available for sale here, but this entire square is blanketed with the colors of the egyptian flag. people are singing, people are cheering. they think the army is with them and they think that at any moment now the army is going to issue a statement saying what they hope it is going to say that mohamed morsi is being removed from power and there will be a new road map to a different government. >> richard engel reporting there, stand by. i want to bring into the
conversation ambassador dennis ross. sir, good to have you. we have you by television. as we're watching the pictures and as richard points out tens of thousands who have swelled into tahrir square what is the administration's position on how they're viewing this and how they are hoping that morsi who is now -- excuse me, we lost ambassador ross. but we also have hishem as well. let me shift gears to you. the administration watching this, how are they interceding or hoping to intercede if morsi is able to meet the concessions of disbanding what he has in place now and kind of starting from scratch? >> it is obvious the administration does not want to see a coup in a classical sense. it is also obvious and i know this for a fact that the pentagon has been in touch with the senior military leadership in cairo urging them to press
president morsi to reach an understanding with the opposition. and i think they would support the military, if the military's next moves are short of a cue. i don't know if they would accept quote/unquote a soft coup. but the administration does not want to see chaos in the streets of cairo and are very concerned and i think they were late in intervening and presenting certain, you know -- presenting the players with certain conditions. as you well know, thomas, the administration worked well with morsi. the american ambassador in cairo gave a speech recently in which he urged the opposition not to resort to the streets. and then she met with one of the major leaders of the muslim brotherhood. this enraged the liberal secular opposition. morsi government flooded the -- in gaza.
morsi's government took a strong position against iran's meddling in the region and against the syrian regime. there is a good relationship, working relationship, if you will, between the morsi government and the obama administration. >> it always has been -- it always has been in the u.s.' best interest to keep egypt as our ally. real quickly, though, does the military lose any credibility for the opponents of a morsi government if they don't do something, as they promised they two, given the 48-hour time clock and now here we are at the tipping point. do they risk their own credibility with the egyptian people? >> absolutely. everybody expects military to move now, especially opposition. the military in one year regained its reputation, as above the fray, if you will, as the only institution, national institution above the fray. and a year ago, they were suffering from bad reputation and bad ground. but morsi alienated the
egyptians and drove them to seek help from the military. >> the deadline passed for president morsi to resign. 5:05 in cairo, egypt. we are now over the tipping point. we're going to continue to follow this. thanks for joining me. i appreciate it. >> thank you. >> the other big story we're following, the george zimmerman trial back here at home is resuming right now after a brief recess. the jury is just coming back into the room, but hear is the testimony from a witness via phone and the high drama earlier in the florida courtroom today. both sides were arguing over evidence surrounding zimmerman's course work in a local college. the state says those materials show zimmerman was exposed to discussions of stand your ground law and zimmerman wasn't familiar with the law prior to the shooting. >> he uses such phrases as i unholstered my firearm, not i pulled my gun. so the idea that we haven't
already heard things about this to make this prior history and prior training as to why these sorts of things are out there is indeed relevant. >> zimmerman pleaded not dw eee to the charges. >> i do not think the jury should properly consider my client's past and his knowledge and what he may have known and what he may have studied for the issue i mentioned earlier that i think we're going down a very dangerous path. >> as i mentioned, the judge allowing this evidence and several people were called to the stand who had some interaction with zimmerman's education. one professor testifying about a class zimmerman took in 2010 and how taught students about self-defense and stand your ground laws and when they can use deadly force. >> as a subjective component, meaning that i feel like i'm in fear. in my mind, i feel like i'm in fear of death or serious bodily
harm. but one stuff hits the fan, you're judged by jurors. and your actions have to meet a reasonable standard objectively. so whether or not a reasonable person in your position would have felt the way you felt. >> msnbc's agrcraig mel rin ivi outside the courthouse. bring us the latest on who we have testifying right now because i understand they have a witness being sworn in via skype. >> a teacher at seminole state college. he was a professor of criminal justice at seminole state college and retired lieutenant with the police department down here in florida. this is the second straight
professor that we have heard from, the second straight teacher we heard from that taught zimmerman a course in seminole state college. y plyou played a clip from captn alexis carter in the jag corps, the army jag corps. he testified earlier, he was zimmerman's criminal litigation professor. he taught self-defense. he also made the class, everyone in the class was familiar with the stand your ground law specifically. he also said on cross that self-defense is subjective. he talked about putting the number of scenarios on a projector for his students, some different self-defense scenarios as well. it was also during his testimony that we saw george zimmerman actually emote. he has been fairly stoic throughout the entire trial. but there was a chuckle this morning. we'll show that exchange to you as well.
>> you don't have to wait until you're almost dead before you can defend yourself? >> no, i would advise you probably don't do that. and i take it -- >> again, that's the -- actually the first time we have seen george zimmerman laugh at all. scott testifying right now via skype. this is witness number 33 for the state against george zimmerman. again, we still expect to hear from the medical examiner, the man who actually performed the autopsy on trayvon martin. we still have yet to hear from him. we also, of course, have not heard from either trayvon martin's parents. but last night, mark o'mara said in an interview that he expects that the state will rest its case at some point this week. also indicating that it will take at least another week for the defense to make its case. that's the very latest from here in sanford, florida. >> thank you very much. we'll take everybody inside. this is witness testimony coming in via skype. let's listen.
>> -- discussions based on different topics. >> as i understand the excerpt in state's exhibit 201 there are chapters on how to testify, how to testify as a witness as well as on psychological or criminal profiling? >> yes, sir. >> okay. thank you, no other questions, your honor. >> cross? is that his phone that's -- >> it's someone calling the destination, your honor. >> just hit decline. >> hold on. i'll just decline. >> i got to tell you, there is -- there is now a really good chance that we're being toyed with.
just so you know. all right. >> sir, is there another phone that we can call into? that is not a cell phone? is there a -- >> trying to call in on the -- >> okay. turn down the volume. is there another phone -- >> so want to jump in here. we have lisa bloom, our msnbc legal analyst joining us from los angeles. also here in the studio, faith jenkins and in the break, when our mikes were down -- i had never seen this before, you said it is common now for witnesses to use skype to testify. this is a big mess because somehow they have gotten the contact telephone number to go in there and mess with this guy's testimony. we see the same numbers calling back and forth. >> perhaps the numbers showed up on the screen. through advancements in technology now, witnesses sometimes when they aren't
available to come into court, and testify, the contract will allow methods like this to be used. this witness' testimony is probably going to be brief and instead of -- and the judge wants this trial to be move along because the jury has been sequestered. they want one witness after another to testify. she probably made an exception in this case and allowed him to testify via skype. >> the jury has been sequestered from technology. maybe this is a way for karma to get back. they're using technology for this testimony and boy, oh, boy, did they get punked. >> well, that's right. and the first thing i said when i saw this up on the screen is, oh, my goodness, everybody can see the prosecutor's skype name. people could simply call him and that's what apparently started happening. you also saw on the left-hand side that one of his skype contacts is don west, the defense attorney. we may have lost some of the context of the testimony. usually you can skype in.
in a high profile trial that many people are watching, this is probably instructive about taking a witness by skype may not be so effective. >> earlier we did have important witnesses that took the stand after the judge ruled the fact that former course work of george zimmerman would be admissible. what were your impressions of those that testified so far about the type of course work that he took and the training, the knowledge that george zimmerman had that he otherwise has said he really didn't have full breadth of stand your ground laws. >> well, first of all, i think the prosecution has proven that george zimmerman wanted to be a police officer. and if he were asked the question, he would probably concede that as well. his best friend, after all, is a federal air marshal and said george zimmerman was very interested in law enforcement. that's not necessarily a bad thing as the defense points out, an honorable career. the problem is if he overstepped his bounds and i think the most important witness this morning for the prosecution was a professor who said that george zimmerman took his class, he was
an a-student and learned stand your ground that's directly contrary to an interview that george zimmerman gave with hanity of fox news played for the jury where he said i didn't know anything about stand your ground and also shows that he had enough knowledge to come up with the self-defense claim on the spot, just before the police came and he stuck to that story ever since. >> let's go back to the courtroom. i understand they have that witness testifying on speakerphone, but i'm not sure the audio is good. we'll take a quick break and be right back. i have low testosterone. there, i said it. see, i knew testosterone could affect sex drive, but not energy or even my mood. that's when i talked with my doctor. he gave me some blood tests... showed it was low t. that's it. it was a number. [ male announcer ] today, men with low t have androgel 1.62% testosterone gel.
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that the student participated in. >> okay. and are those records somewhere available to you? >> yes, they are. >> okay. you don't have them with you today, though? >> i could actually print out the discussion, that's what i'm looking through right now to see if we covered -- >> okay. well, maybe we'll take a moment to see if you can review those and then tell us about that. >> -- ask him to repeat that. >> repeat that one more time, if
you would, sir. >> all the material was not covered in discussions. >> so the issue concerning strategies as a witness or testifying under cross examination were not covered in your course work? >> it's -- >> i'm sorry. i'm going to ask the question again because i couldn't understand your answer, understanding again we have some audio difficulties. was there -- was there any discussion about testifying or acting as to how to be a witness in your course work, yes or no? >> it was part of the required reading, but we didn't address it in the discussion or the actual course. >> okay. it was in the book, correct?
sir. it was in the book, correct? >> it was. >> okay. but it was not discussed in any of the course work, is that also correct? >> it looks like it was not discussed. >> okay, thank you. and in preparing -- in applying for the course, you actually had the students fill out an initial information sheet, correct? >> no, we did have an introduction discussion the first week of class. >> okay. and in that introduction discussion, what did george zimmerman tell you was his career goal? >> let's see, said his goal was to become an attorney and eventually a prosecutor. >> wanted to become an -- >> an attorney and prosecutor? >> an attorney and eventually a prosecutor. >> yes. >> and that was his career goal
that he gave to you back in 2011, you said, the summer? >> yes. on june 23rd of 2011. >> okay. i'm going to have a moment, your honor. >> yes, you may. >> mr. pleasants, you are excused. thank you very much, sir. >> you're on speaker. do you hear the judge just excused you from further testimony in this case? >> i'm excused. >> you are excused by judge nelson. no other questions. appreciate your time. >> no problem. >> thank you for your assistance. state, call your next witness.
>> andy sewer. >> may i approach just a moment? >> yes, you may. >> transition of witness testimony. they just finished up with witness scott pleasants. he was a professor of criminal justice at seminole state college. he was testifying via telephone. he was earlier giving his testimony via skype, but there interruptions from other multiple callers who were able to see the number on the screen so it interrupted his testimony. they were able to finish up the testimony via speakerphone. the next witness they're calling in now as they continue in this vain of testimony about george zimmerman's course work, when he was training to learn more about what it would be like to work in police and security forces, he took courses at a community college to learn more about what it was like to work in those fields and he had stated that he didn't know about stand your ground laws in florida.
we learned earlier this morning one of his professors did teach about stand your ground laws, and if i remember correctly, he received an a in that course. we're going to go back inside the courtroom now for next witness who is just taking her seat. >> good morning, ma'am. please tell the members of the jury your name. >> amy sewer. siewert. >> how are you employed? >> i am employed by the florida department law enforcement. >> how long have you been with fdl snech fdle? >> 11 years. explain to the members of the jury what your job is in the fire arms section? >> my duties as an analyst is examine submitted firearms for safety and function, to examine fired ammunition components that are submitted as evidence to determine if they have come from
a particular firearm, as well as distance determinations on clothing. >> and how long have you been an analyst in the firearms section? >> i've been an analyst for three years. >> how long total or -- you said you had been in -- with fdle for 11 years. what did you do prior to being an analyst in the firearms section? >> i was forensic technologition for feist yeive years in the fi section and three years as a technologist in the toxicology section. >> what did you do as a forensic technologist? share your educational background. >> bachelor of science degree in chemistry. >> what train having you had to prepare you for your duties as a crime laboratory analyst in the firearms section? >> as a forensic technologist, i completed a six-month training program which enabled me to
perform function operation on function examinations on firearms and as an analyst i had an additional 14 months of structured hands on training in firearms identification. and this included units on firearm operating systems, cartridge case and bullet comparisons as well as distance determinations. >> have you ever been qualified as an expert in the course of florida in the areas of firearm function and identification? >> yes, i have. >> how many times? >> 17. >> at this time i would tender amy as an expert in the area of firearm identification and function. >> she may testify as such. >> have you had an opportunity to look at any of the evidence? >> yes, i have. >> did you examine a firearm in a holster in this case? >> yes. >> may a approach the witness? >> yes, you may.
>> let me ask you to look at 154. do you recognize that? >> i do. >> and what do you recognize that to be? >> this is the firearm and holster and magazine i received as part of this case. >> would you open the exhibit then? >> yes. i recognize it by the case number, exhibit number and my initials. >> and what type of firearm is it? >> it is a 9 millimeter luger semi-automatic pistol. >> what do you mean by semi-automatic? >> in very basic terms, semi-automatic means a pull of the trigger is required for each shot to be fired. >> what do you mean specifically by 9 millimeter. >> 9 millimeter refers to the caliber of ammunition the firearm is designed to fire. >> are you familiar with that
brand of firearm, the cal tech brand? >> yes. >> how so? >> i had the opportunity to tour their manufacturing facility twice as well as i have examined many of them over the course of my case work. >> and did you examine the firearm to determine whether or not it was in working order? >> yes, i did. >> how did you do that? >> i did a general firearm examine. i took note of the make, model and serial number, looking at the overall condition of the firearm to determine if it looked safe to test fire. after determining it was safe, i used laboratory and evidence ammunition and submitted magazine to test fire the pistol. >> and what did you find when you test fired the gun? >> it was functional. >> okay. may she step down to demonstrate in front of the jury? >> yes, she may. >> if you step down -- i'll grab the exhibit for you.
your honor, there is a gun lock on the exhibit. may i remove that so she can explain the function to the jury? >> yes, you may. >> all right. if you would. just -- >> give it to the deputy to make sure the gun is cleared. >> it is safe, your honor. >> all right. if you would explain to the mans of the jury how that firearm and anything else you need in terms of the magazine how it functions. >> absolutely. >> i'm go to start real quick with a basic definition for you. right here is what we call a cartridge. it is commonly referred to as a bullet, but it contains at the very top of the bullet the cartridge case at the head of primer and inside of it gunpowder. now these cartridges are loaded
into a magazine, which is essentially a container for these cartridges, designed to feed into the firearm itself. so cartridges are loaded one on top of another in the magazine, the magazine is then inserted up the magazine well of the pistol, and then the user -- typically this is closed, the user will pull back on the slide, and release and as they release the top cartridge from the magazine will be removed from the top and loaded into the chamber and the pistol will be ready to fire. in order to fire a shot at this point, all you need to do is pull the trigger. >> all right. and is there a way to load the firearm so that you don't need to pull the slide back to chamber a round? >> you have to chamber -- you have to pull back on the slide to load a cartridge into the chamber. that's the only way to get it in. >> if the magazine was full, could that be done? >> yes. >> explain to them how that is. >> with a loaded magazine, with
the capacity of this particular one is seven, you can pull back on the slide and release and it will load that top cartridge. then there will be one in the chamber and six in the magazine. if you desire, you can release the magazine, load another one so the magazine would be full for a total of seven in the magazine, reinsert into the pistol so that the total capacity between the magazine and chamber will hold is eight. >> all right. do you recall how many cartridges were with the firearm you received? >> i received seven cartridges total. >> and the mai inmagazine holdsw many? >> seven. >> if the firearm was fired with seven in the magazine, does that mean someone had to place a live round in the chamber? >> with the way i received it was six in the magazine and additional one, it would be consistent with the magazine fully loaded and one in the chamber at the time it was
fired. >> all right. does that firearm have any features that prevent an accidental discharge? >> yes, it has internal safeties. it is double action only, which means that the firearm cannot be cocked unless a trigger is pulled. pulling the trigger will cook and release the hammer located back here, also shrouded so you cannot get to it to be able to cook it. it also has a hammer block which is a mechanical piece that prevents the hammer from being in contact with the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled and that will drop out of the way and allow the hammer to hit the firing pin. >> what do you mean by trigger travel distance? >> trigger travel distance is the distance that the trigger has to be pulled rearward in order to release the firing mechanism, in this case, cock and release the hammer. >> what is the distance or relative distance of the trigger travel distance on that particular firearm?
>> this particular gun has a longer distance than most typical pistols. >> is that another feature that would help prevent an accidental discharge? >> yes. you have to pull back significantly in order to release the firing mechanism. >> all right. did you also receive a holster with that exhibit, with that firearm? >> yes. >> would you show that to the jury and show how the two go together. >> this is the holster. there is a clip on the back. just insert it. >> that would be the total size of it if a person were to wear that on their hip, inside or outside of their clothes. >> yes. >> you may resume your seat. >> could i ask the deputy to do that? >> your honor -- using it with the lock off as well.
thank you. >> what is meant by the term trigger pull? >> trigger pull is the amount of force required to release the firing mechanism. >> are you able to measure that with any particular firearm? >> yes. >> did you measure that with this firearm? >> i did. >> explain to the jury how you did that. >> i hung a series of known weights from the shooting position of the trigger where the finger will rest. and i kept adding weights until the trigger was pulled and the hammer cocked and released. >> and what did you find when you measured the trigger pull? >> it was between 4 1/2 and 4 3/4 pounds. >> is that within the manufacturer's specifications? >> yes, it is. >> did you also receive a fired cartridge case with this evidence? >> yes. >> how many? >> i received one fired cartridge case. >> your honor -- let me show you
state's 147, ask you if you recognize that. >> i do. >> and how do you recognize that? >> fdle case number, exhibit number and my initials. >> what do you recognize it to be? >> it is one fired 9 millimeter luger cartridge caliber case. >> when you receive a firearm and a fired casing, are you able to determine whether or not that particular casing came from that particular firearm? >> yes. >> how can you do that? >> with a submitted firearm, and magazine, i will use laboratory and/or evidence ammunition to test fire that pistol. i will then collect the fired cartridge cases, and compare those microscopically to the evidence cartridge case or cases i've received. >> did you do that with the shell casing or cartridge case in this case and also the cal tech pistol? >> yes. >> what did you find? >> the cartridge case was fired in the pistol. >> did you also receive some
bullet fragments with this case? >> yes, i did. >> may i approach? >> yes. >> let me show you state's 165. ask you, do you recognize that? >> yes. >> and how do you recognize 165? >> again, by the fdle case number, exhibit number and my initials. >> and what is that? what is contained in that exhibit? >> there is one fired jacket portion, two fired bullet jackets -- fragments and one lead core. >> and when you received parts of a bullet or fragments of a bullet in a firearm, are you able to compare those to determine whether or not those fragments were fired from a particular firearm? >> yes. >> explain to the jury how you do that. >> similar to the cartridge cases, i'll use the bullets i test fired from the submitted firearm and compare those microscopically to the submitted evidence bullet or bullet fragments. >> did you do that with a fragments in this case and the
cal tech pistol? >> i did. >> what did you find? >> the fired bullet jacket portion was fired from the pistol, the two smaller fragments were inconclusive, and the bullet core is not suitable for microscopic examination. >> you say inconclusive, what do you mean? >> i was not able to determine whether they were or were not fired from the pistol. >> and why is that? >> a lack of detail on them, they were very damaged, they had very small portions of rifling on them. >> is it apparent the fragments hit something, the bullet and caused it to fragment like that? >> yes. >> all right. did you also receive some clothing in connection with this case? >> i did. >> and if you received clothing in connection with a firearms case, are you able to determine or attempt to determine the distance between the muzzle of a firearm and the clothing at the time the firearm was fired? >> yes. >> how does that work?
how do you do that? >> when a gun is fired, a cloud of partially burned and unburned powder particles, vaporous, inparticular lead and smoke and gases will follow the bullet out the barrel. this cloud can potentially leave a pattern on an object or if the firearm is in contact with a particular object, no pattern will be left, but other physical effects will be present. >> did you conduct those tests in this case? >> i did. >> your honor, may she step down again? >> yes, she may. >> thank you. >> so we're listening to the expert testimony there from the florida department of law enforcement, firearms expert. let me start with you, lisa. the weight of this woman's testimony, how pivotal is it to what the prosecution is trying to show the jurors? >> i think the prosecution is
trying to establish that george zimmerman pulled that trigger intentionally that it was not an accident, there were a couple of safety features on that gun, and that the trigger had to be pulled back a fairly significant distance with a fair amount of force and so that he did it intentionally. this was no accident. >> back inside, they're looking at some of the clothing involved. >> -- how do you recognize it? >> fdle case number, exhibit number and my initials. >> okay. is this an item of clothing you examined in this case? >> yes, it is. >> and conducted distance testing on? >> yes. >> all right. you can put that back in here. all right. explain to the jury first what this is, what you saw and what you didn't. >> this was evidence i examined for distance determination.
and what i did was i was looking at the area surrounding this hole. i was looking for partially burned or unburned gunpowder particles. i was looking for any type of sooting present around this hole, as well as looking at the ends of the fibers as to whether they were blackened or singed or melting. >> and how did you -- >> blackened or singed or -- >> melted. >> yeah, if you would just stand back here so the court reporter has a visual of you, that would help. what did you do to test fire this particular item? did you take a coupling from it or what did you do in. >> i did. i removed a portion of the back of this sweatshirt for testing purposes. >> all right. and i wonder if we could turn this around. can you show the members of the jury where you removed the
recognize the packaging? >> yes. >> how do you recognize it? >> exhibit number, fdle number and my initials. >> and this is obviously a soiled shirt that you examined the case. >> yes. >> and if you can show the members of the jury the area you focused on as having a bullet that passed through it. >> this area right here was where i was looking right underneath the nike swoosh. >> did you make a cutting from the exhibit? >> i did. >> and is that depicted on the back of the exhibit, did you come around and look? >> yes, it is. >> both the cutting and the area on the sweatshirt? >> yes. >> show that to the jury real quick. and that's been displayed again with the bullet hole through it from your test fire? >> yes.
>> you may resume your seat. in conducting the test fires, did you capture your analysis with photography? >> yes, i did. >> let me ask you to look then at state's 122, your honor, if we could have assistance with the lights. and if i may approach the witness. >> yes, you may. >> give you this laser pointer, it works by depressing the button at the top. what is state's 122 first? >> this is a picture of the outer sweatshirt that i had examined for distance determination. >> and explain to the members of the jury just the significance of the items that you marked on the exhibit. >> sure.
this is an overall shot of the -- of the sweatshirt. i measured the distance about nine inches down from the top shoulder seam and approximately seven inches in from the side arm seam. >> all right. and state's 123, what is depicted there? >> it is a little difficult to see with the particular color of the fabric, but what i was looking at here are a few -- there are a few gunpowder particles surrounding this as well as some blackening right around the hole as well as some tearing of the fabric and burning and singing on the fabric ends that were torn. >> is that a close-up of the bullet hole on the sweatshirt? >> yes, it is. >> state's 124, what is that? >> that is the inside of that same area. right here you can see a little better the blackening that i was
looking at. >> so that's a close-up of the inside of the sweatshirt? >> yes. >> all right. and state's 125, what's depicted there? >> that was the distance test i had made using a portion of that sweatshirt. >> all right. and just take them through how you conducted the distance test, what ammunition you used and why. >> absolutely. using the submitted pistol and submitted ammunition, i test fired into portions of both garments that i received. the reason for doing so is the pattern that can be left behind using a particular firearm or ammunition can depending on the length of the barrel, the size and style of the bullet and the amount shape and burn rate of the gunpowder contained within the cartridge. >> so you actually used one of the seven live rounds that you received with the exhibit to conduct this test?
>> yes. >> all right. state's 126, what did we see there? >> that is a close-up of the distance test that i had made. the arrows are pointing to diagonal tear that occurred in the fabric. >> and when you conducted the distance tests with the cal tech pistol and the hooded sweatshirt what did you determine about the distance between the muzzle of the gun and the material at the time the gun was discharged? >> the clothing displayed residues and physical effects consistent with a contact shot. >> meaning the muzzle or the end of the barrel of the gun was up against the sweatshirt when it was fired? >> correct. >> let's go state's 127. what is that? >> this is the other sweatshirt that i had received to do
distance determination on. >> and, again, you made measurements of where the hole is relative on this sweatshirt? >> yes. >> incidentally, if both sweatshirts were being worn in their intended fashion, forward, do the two bullet holes line up? >> they do. >> 128. what do we see there? >> with this we are looking at the tearing of the fabric. you can see there are a few gunpowder particles, which are not easily depicted in this photo, as well as some light sooting and burning and singing of the ends of the fabric. >> and the reddish brown staining, that would be apparently blood? >> yes, it is -- >> not something you applied? >> no. >> all right. state's 129, what is that? >> the inside of the hole that was on the previous photograph, and, again, you can see a little
better the sooting, the blackening surrounding the -- >> can you circle that for the jury as best you can? >> yes, sorry. >> okay. and state's 130. >> this is the test i had generated using a portion of the back of the garment. >> when you conducted that distance test, did you also use the nine millimeter firearm and the ammunition that was present with the firearm? >> i conducted that simultaneous to the first one. i had layered the darker sweatshirt over the lighter sweatshirt, and fired one shot through both. this is from the same. >> the hooded sweatshirt you would put on the outside, the lighter sweatshirt would have been on the inside. >> correct. >> what did you find distancewise when you conducted the test with this particular sweatshirt? >> this as well was consistent with residue and physical
effects of a contact shot. >> so, again, evidence that the end of the gun was against the material when it was fired? >> yes. >> all right. >> and finally state's 131, what is depicted there? >> this is a close-up shot of the test that i had generated with the lighter color sweatshirt, depicting a little better that you can see the tearing and the blackening of the fabric right around the hole. >> all right. are your findings consistent with the muzzle of the gun having been pressed into the dark hooded sweatshirt and fired through both the dark hooded sweatshirt and the lighter colored sweatshirt? >> it is consistent with the muzzle of the firearm touching the outer sweatshirt and the inner sweatshirt being in direct contact with the outer one, yes. >> all right, thank you, ma'am. judge, that's all i have. thank you. >> thank you.
do you want to break for lunch at this time? or -- >> your call, your honor. >> i don't know how long you think it will be. >> okay. >> and i get to 20 you can remind me where we are if we don't notice. >> okay. >> i'll get to it. >> okay. >> i suggest that we break for lunch. good morning, ma'am. how are you? >> good. >> try to do it to the way that you went through it in your direct examination. obviously what you've told the jury, you do in a lot of cases where these issues maybe in conte context, correct? >> yes. >> where you try to determine that the cartridge found came from the gun? >> correct. >> you know that's not an issue
here, right? >> yes. >> and you do a lot of analysis to make sure that the bullet came from the gun in many cases, correct? >> yes. >> and you know that's not an issue here? >> yes. >> okay. and concerning the firearm itself, of course, you need to be able to testify to a jury this can fire a bullet and work, you know that's not an issue here? >> yes. >> i'm going to interpose an interjection as to what is or is not an issue in the case? >> thank you. >> that would be the case if you can rephrase your question? >> sure. certainly. >> from a forensic perspective and from the workload that you need to do, have you given any indication that there was an issue in whether or not this bullet came from this gun? >> we're never given an indication whether there's an issue present or not? >> okay. >> so you would take it on and see what needs to be done to
prove up matters even if they may not be in contest? >> correct. >> so in this case you were able to document gun works, fired cartridge, fired bullet, correct? >> yes. >> now let's talk about the gun itself and if i might approach the witness, your honor, with the -- >> yes. >> i'm going to have you testify from where you are but i would ask you to take out the firearm and hold it obviously how you know how to. and i think that you said you have a good history and experience in firearms generally, correct? >> yes. >> and you know what different types of firearms are used for? >> yes. >> okay. and that is what's called a
double action, correct? >> yes. >> meaning by that that you don't need to do -- you need to have a certain amount of weight and intent to fire that firearm, correct? >> what double action refers to is pulling the trick gegger, co and releasing the firearm mechanism. >> the very characteristic of being a double action is a safety feature, correct? >> yes. >> okay. meaning that there are some firearms, are there not, some semi-automatics, where if you actually rachet, if you have a cartridge in the chamber, it is ready to fire with a very light, almost feather weight pull, correct? >> those are referred to single action firearms. >> in single action, if i were to be carrying around single action without an external safety on it in my hip t would be quite dangerous, wouldn't it? >> if the firearm was cocked. >> of course.
if i've racked one in and it's only on single action now because it has the feather weight pull, right? >> yes. it is a lighter trigger pull than a double action. >> so the double action characteristic itself makes it a safer weapon to carry in a ready to fire set, correct? >> with it there, yes. >> with the way that firearms act the way they're supposed to act, okay? >> yes. >> and you know that some weapons are used, particularly for self-defense, correct? >> yes. >> to protect one's self, correct? >> yes. >> and one that context, a firearm that's used for self-defense has to be ready to be used, correct? >> potentially. >> you would not want a firearm that has an external safety that is a double action that has an external safety that would require an additional step to make it ready to fire, would
you, for self-defense applications? >> i can't really say as to whether that would be -- that would be more of a personal preference i do believe. >> let me ask it this way, if in fact one was carrying a firearm and it had an external safety, what would have to happen before that firearm was ready to fire? >> the safety would have to be disengaged. >> you would have to take that extra step to disengage the safety, correct? >> correct. >> this gun does not have an external safety, correct? >> no. what exactly then makes this firearm a safe firearm to carry in a loaded way? >> it's a combination of the fact that it's double action, that it's never cocked until you pull the trigger as well as the hammer block that i had stated previously that prevents the hammer from coming in contact with the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled. with both of these safeties functioning properly, the gun
cannot be fired unless the trigger is pulled. >> so the hammer lock is an additional safety device and that is basically a metal plate that goes between the hammer and the back of the cartridge, correct? >> back of the firearm. >> firearm. >> and an exact metal plate is safe, it cannot fire, correct? >> correct. >> and pulling on the firearm, it has a 4 1/2, 4 3/4 pull, is that plate dropped in order to make the gun active -- >> yes. >> -- correct? and the very nature of having a 4 1/2 to 4 3/4 point pull is a safety feature, correct? >> the trigger pull itself is not a safety feature. >> having to pull the trigger with that amount of pull is a safety feature, correct? >> no. >> why don't you compare the pull necessary to pull a double
action firearm versus a single action firearm? >> are you talking the trigger travel distance? >> i'm sorry. yes, the trigger travel distance. >> yes. in terms of the length that the trigger needs to travel backwards to release the firing mechanism on a double action, especially this one, is much longer than, say, a single action firearm. >> would you agree that that also is a safety mechanism to be certain that the person who -- that the firearm is not going to fire without someone deciding to make the full pull on it? >> that would make it a lot less likely to accidentally pull. it would be a deliberate pull of the trigger. >> are you saying it's not a safety feature or did i just misstate the word when i was using pull pressure? >> it's the design feature of the gun. >> to make it safer? >> potentially, yes. >> so is that an appropriate gun
then to be carried or is it a safe gun to be carried in a loaded and ready-to-fire position? >> this gun, again in working order, is safe in terms of it will not fire unless the trigger is pulled. >> there are other guns, of course, as we talked about a moment ago, that have external safeties, which means you need to undo a safety before shooting the gun, correct? >> correct. >> are those more found in single action guns where the trigger distance is much less? >> that will be found in single action guns and double action guns and firearms that do both single and double action from makes all across the board. >> you do agree this gun was out an external safety to carry the gun loaded? >> safe is a personal preference in terms of loaded. i would say that, again, this gun cannot fire unless the trigger is pulled. >> and i don't want to get into
qualitative terms of safe or not, but is there anything with this particular gun that you found that suggested it was unsafe to carry in a loaded way ready to fire? >> no. >> there are probably at least two guns in this room. would you agree that all law enforcement carry their guns ready to fire? >> i do believe they do. >> not much use if they're not ready to fire, are they? >> no. >> you mentioned even after this weapon you had a chance to visit the factory where they're made a couple of times. >> yes. >> it's right here in broward county? >> yes. >> you've been there to see. are there any concerns with the manufacture of that weapon? >> no. >> from your experience as to
how it was utilized in this event, did it perform properly? did it shoot its projectile the way it was supposed to? >> the gun functions, yes. >> so it worked, correct? >> yes. >> and it worked the way it was supposed to? >> yes. >> there was no suggestion that the pull distance was malfunctioning in any form, correct? >> no. there was no indication that anything on this pistol was mal functioning -- hi, i'm joy reid in for alex wagner. you're listening to the trial of george zimmerman. amy stewart is testifying. let's listen in. >> how you load it, you have to -- i call it rack it, when you pull back the slide? >> yes. >> so that you and the jury knows that