tv News Nation MSNBC July 8, 2013 11:00am-12:01pm PDT
in my mind that is george zimmerman. >> we get you back inside the courtroom now. on the stand was the lead investigator of the case, detective chris serino. >> -- after the walk through. i think it was the 28th. >> okay. what was the purpose of you bringing mr. martin and ms. green to your office? >> to bring them up to speed as far as the progress of the investigation, where we were at that point. >> okay. they had some concerns, did they not, as to whether or not mr. zimmerman at that point had been arrested. >> yes, sir. >> okay. were you sharing with them your progress, what was done and still needed to be done? >> yes, sir. >> and can you outline the setting, where you were when you had this conversation with the two of them? >> we conducted a meeting in the conference room that we have in the police department on the second floor, and i -- and after that i went ahead and played the 911 recordings for him.
>> okay. do you recall where that recording took place? >> it was at my desk. >> okay. that was as testified to by previous officers as sort of a cubby hole set up with two or three other desks within close proximity. >> yes, sir. >> and can you then tell the jury how that was set up, where you were sitting, where mr. martin was sitting, and where ms. green was sitting. >> i was seated in front of my desk facing my computer monitor. mr. martin was to my rear left, and next to him was his girlfriend or fiance brandy. kind of like in that posture. >> ok. so if i'm sitting at my screen right here, you were sitting down. >> yes, sir. >> tracy martin then was just over your left shoulder? >> yes, sir. >> then brandy green just behind or next to him. >> yes, sir. >> and what was the focus at that point? >> the audio portion of the
recording that was playing on my computer. >> okay. we know, and i want to focus you on what we have shorthand called the lauer 911 call. you understand what i mean by that? >> yes, sir. >> and that is the call that has the screams on it and the gunshot. >> yes, sir. >> and did you play that for mr. martin and ms. green? >> yes, sir. i played all the recordings for him. >> okay. focusing on the 911 call we just talked about, the lauer 911 call, tell me how you played that, what volume or how the setting of that occurred. >> i can't recall the number as far as the volume went, but it was audible, relatively clear. as clear as i had. it was played off of a -- i believe off of a cd. it might have been digital, e-mail. i don't quite remember. it was played, and it was audible. >> okay. and what was mr. martin's
response? >> emotional. understandingly. i let him listen first. >> oi'm sorry? >> i let him listen first before i asked anything. >> okay. and what did you ask him? >> i believe my words were, is that your son's voice in the background, or i think i said it a little differently than that. i inquired as if that was, in fact, his son yelling for help. >> and what was his response? >> he -- it was more of a verbal and nonverbal. he looked away and under his breath, as i interpret it, said no. >> did he ever ask that the tape be played for him again that time? >> i don't believe so. >> did he ever evidence to you any concern with being able to hear the tape? >> no, sir. >> had that occurred, would you have played the tape for him a
second time? >> absolutely, sir. >> and ms. green, what was her response? >> she was consoling him. i didn't hear a response from her. >> did you ask her specifically whether or not she believed it to be trayvon martin's voice? >> no, sir, i did not. >> did she offer any opinion voluntarily as to whether or not she believed it was trayvon martin's voice? >> none that i recall. no, sir. >> do you know who else was present in the area sort of nearby within, let's say, earshot of the playing of the call? >> one of our sergeants was behind us. he was walking through. i guess he saw what i was doing. he took it upon himself to stop, and i believe that was the only person that i saw. >> do you recall what that sergeant's name was? >> sergeant leon.
>> nothing further, your honor. >> thank you. cross? >> good afternoon, sir. >> good afternoon, sir. >> let's talk about the last thing you mentioned. the sergeant was walking by and you believe stopped, is that correct? >> yeah, i know he stopped, yes. >> okay. and investigator singleton wasn't around, as you can recall, is that correct? >> no, sir. >> she was not, correct? >> no, i didn't see her there. >> okay. now, i assume by the nature of your profession this is one of the most difficult things you have to do. >> by far, yes, sir. >> to have to talk about the death of a loved one to a parent. >> yes, sir, it was. >> is there anything more difficult that you have to deal with as an investigator in a case involving the death of a person? >> other than an initial notification, probably not. >> and i gather you try to as best you can to be as sensitive
as you can realizing how sensitive this issue is or how traumatic an event it can be, correct? >> yes, sir. >> and that you attempt to do that as best you could. >> yes, sir, i did. >> okay. i gather you informed trayvon martin's dad that you were going to have him listen to some recordings. >> yes, sir. >> okay. did you tell him ahead of time that there would actually be a shot? in other words, that he would actually listen to the death of his son? did you tell him ahead of time? >> i don't recall specifically informing him of that, no. >> okay. but you played i think you said five or six 911 calls. is that correct? >> every one i had, yes, sir. >> okay. and at this time, do you recall the order or how you played them, other than you played them all? >> i don't recall the order.
yes, i played them all. >> would you agree some of those recordings were gut wrenching for a parent to have to listen to when they're talking about a death of their son? >> yes, sir. >> okay. they were pretty emotional? >> yes, sir. >> would you agree that mr. martin's reaction was appropriate in the sense of having to relive that even though he wasn't there, but having to again understand that his son was no longer among us. in other words, that his son was dead, in heaven hopefully. >> yes, sir. >> okay. would you agree that he reacted appropriately to that? >> yes, sir. >> so you played the recording in which -- and the jury has listened to them, but she's describing the death of this kid or describing what she heard, whatever it was. is that correct? >> yes, sir. >> then you're play managing ot recordings in which other people are describing what they saw, correct? >> yes, sir. >> okay. i gather as you're playing this,
mr. martin's getting very emotional. would that be fair? >> yes, sir. >> was he having a hard time dealing with this? >> in my opinion, yes, sir. >> okay. and i gather he didn't say, hey, hold on, you know, this is too difficult for me, let me come back another day. he went ahead and said, i'm going to listen to everything because he wanted to know what was going on in the case. would that be fair? >> yes. >> and from your perspective, that was very understandable, correct? >> absolutely. yes, sir. >> his son has been killed, what, two days earlier, correct? >> yes, sir. >> and he's wanting some answers, as any parent should want. wouldn't you agree with that? >> yes, sir. >> wasn't that reasonable on his part? >> yes, sir, it was. >> the next thing he knows, he gets home and his son is missing and he realizes his son's dead. >> yes, sir. >> and it's not just from natural causes. somebody has shot him in the chest. >> let me object, your honor.
outside the scope of direct examination. >> i thought this was pertinent to the issue that i'm trying to establish the scenario -- >> then get to your next question, please. >> yes. in other words, did you preface any of this -- i know this is going to be very difficult for you, but please try to listen to all these recordings. i'm assuming you did that because you're a police officer that's been around the block a lot of times. >> i believe i did, yes, sir. >> okay. and even though it was going to be emotional, he tried to listen to it and go through it. >> yes, sir, he did. >> and as he's listening through this, is the emotion building up? do you see that building up? >> it was a very emotional moment, yes, sir. >> okay. and then you played, at some point, the recording of the screams for help. >> yes, sir, i did. >> but also in that recording there's actually a gunshot, correct? >> yes, there is. >> okay. and i gather you played that -- as a good investigator, you played all the recordings from beginning to end, correct?
>> yes, sir. >> so that there would be no issue about what was going on, that you were thorough in your attempt to tell mr. martin what had happened. >> my objective was to share all the information i had with him. >> okay. so you were providing all those recordings. >> yes, sir. >> okay. and i gather he's listening to these cries, and then he hears the gunshot, correct? then you keep playing it, right? >> yes, sir. >> and i guess it was obvious in the way you were playing it that we were talking about his son having been shot. >> correct. >> i mean, was there any dispute about that? >> no, sir, there was not. >> he understood that was the death of his son. >> yes, sir. >> and i gather you being as sensitive as you can based on these circumstances -- i'm assuming it was emotional for you too. >> it was trying for me. yes, it was. >> okay. and obviously being a good
investigator, police officer, having done this for a long time, you were trying to be as sensitive as you could in dealing with the death of a young boy that the father was there, in other words. >> yes, sir. >> okay. and then at some point you had to ask him some questions about the identification of the voice, correct? >> yes, sir. >> and you as best as you can, even though you knew mr. martin was upset and emotional, you still felt you had a need to ask him at that point, correct? >> yes, sir. >> okay. and i think you asked him something to the effect, do you recognize the voice? do i have it right? >> it was either, do you recognize the voice, or is that your son's voice in the background. >> okay. and as this was going on, when you specifically asked him that, i think you described mr. martin that his head was down, correct? >> it was more looking away from me and the computer. >> like he didn't even want to
deal with it. >> yes, sir. >> is that how you interpreted it? >> yes, sir. >> and then you stated that it was under his breath. did i get that right? >> yes, sir. >> and you interpreted it as he said no, correct? >> yes, sir. >> i mean, you didn't flat out hear the word no unequivocally, or did you hear it like something under his breath and he was distraught. >> i heard it and saw the movement of his mouth. >> okay. so you believe -- your opinion is that he said no. >> yes, sir. >> now, do you know if that no was directed to the fact that you had just played literally not a videotape of his son's death, but an audiotape, or was it related to the identification of the voice. do you know? >> object, your honor. that would be speculation of this witness. >> sustained. >> would you agree that when you asked him that, that was after you had played the recording in which you were asking him to identify the voice, but in that
same recording, he was hearing for the first time, right, the death of his son. >> yes, sir. >> right? >> yes. >> as far as you know, he had never heard this shooting before in terms of his son being killed. >> yes, this was before it was released. it had to have been the first time. >> okay. if i may have a moment, your honor. >> yes, you may. >> and sir, i gather in all your years of doing this, when people are hearing about the death of a loved one, even when you go to the door when you go to their
house, most people react like, oh, no, something has happened. their son or loved one is dno longer among them. >> it's extreme grief. that is typical. >> and the word no is like, i can't believe it, like he's dead. >> objection, your honor. that would be speculation. >> it's based upon what his experience has been, so in that regard, i'll allow it. >> right? it's normal when you're telling them about the death of a loved one, people say, no, you know, like i can't believe it, that kind of stuff. >> it could be because it was denial. >> right? >> yes, sir. >> that would be a normal thing based on your experience when people say no, correct? >> yes, sir. >> thank you, sir. no further questions. >> thank you. redirect? >> yes, please. when you talked about during all of the 911 calls, you played all those 911 calls, correct? >> yes, sir. >> but it was only after and specifically after you played
the lauer 911 call that you looked at mr. martin and asked if that was the voice of his son screaming in the background, correct? >> it was the most graphic, yes, sir. >> all right. and it was right at that precise time because you wanted to know what he thought of the voice on that tape, didn't you? >> objection, leading question. >> what was the purpose of asking him? >> to clarify that it was, in fact -- if it was or if it wasn't his son's voice. >> right, because that was significant to your investigation, correct? >> yes, sir, it was. >> mr. de la rionda said, as sensitive as you can, but it was something you had to do as a chief investigator. >> yes, sir. >> because you knew that if trayvon martin's father had said it -- >> objection, leading question. >> okay. you need to rephrase your question. >> okay. was it significant in your investigation that mr. martin said it was not the voice of his son? >> it became significant in the investigation because at that
point in time, there really wasn't much of a dispute at that time as to where the voice came from. >> because it was your understanding in your investigation that other information -- let me ask you this. what other information supported that that was george zimmerman screaming? >> objection as to hearsay now. >> only to the extent he was the chief investigating officer, your honor. >> still speaking objection, please. overrule. >> it was statements that i obtained from the initial responding officers coupled with statements provided by an eyewitness. you want names or -- >> sure. >> okay. officer tim smith, statements he had heard the defendant make. and john goode, who at that point had provided me with a statement both in writing and i believe taped also that it was his belief that it was george zimmerman the one yelling for
help. >> so with that information in mind, you were presenting this to mr. martin with what idea? what did you want to accomplish by presenting this to mr. martin and having him listen to it? >> for my own clarification to make sure that everybody had it correct or at that point that the information i had was correct. >> did mr. martin's response fit into the other information you already had available? >> at that point in time, yes, sir, it did. >> and to the extent that he said no, you understood that to be what? when he said no, what question do you think he was answering? >> that the voice in the background was not that of his son. >> did he ever contact you in the days or weeks after that to ask you whether or not he could listen to the tape again? >> no, sir, he did not. >> did he ever say anything to you about i want to change my mind and i want to listen to it again to see anything else about
that tape? >> no, sir. >> did you question directly ms. green in regard to her thought as to whose voice that was? >> not that i recall, sir, no. >> did she counter or contest tracy martin's acknowledgment that it was not his son's voice? >> objection, calls for hearsay and also an assumption on the part of ms. green. >> i'll rephrase it. >> the objection is sustained. >> did ms. green counter -- did she say anything that evidenced to you as the investigator that she disagreed with mr. martin? >> no, sir. >> there was undoubtedly a very emotional time for mr. martin and also for you. do you have any concern he understood your question and that he answered it by saying
no? >> no, sir. >> thank you. nothing further, your honor. >> thank you. >> you were asked about information you had prior to that. >> yes, sir. >> and you mentioned mr. goode, correct? >> yes, sir. >> you mentioned mr. goode and the defendant mr. zimmerman, correct? >> i didn't mention mr. zimmerman. >> watching the ongoing testimony there of the lead investigator in the investigation of george zimmerman. chris serino back on the stand. we'll take a quick break and be back in a moment. - hugs from beneful baked delights... - [ barks ] are crispy, oven-baked dog snacks with soft savory centers, made with beef and cheese. beneful baked delights: a unique collection of four snacks... to help spark play in your day. what are you guys doing? having some fiber! with new phillips' fiber good gummies. they're fruity delicious! just two gummies have 4 grams of fiber! to help support regularity! i want some... [ woman ] hop on over! [ marge ] fiber the fun way, from phillips'.
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put on their presentation of their case. msnbc legal analyst lisa bloom and criminal defense attorney john burress are with me. lisa, i want to get your take on this out of the gate. they were very specific with serino about back to the 911 tape and the voice and the fact zimmerman said that doesn't sound like me. >> there was so much more i would like to hear from chris serino. it's all about the father of trayvon martin, who initially said it didn't sound like his son screaming on the 911 call. chris serino had to admit that tracy martin said, not my son, in a very emotional moment because he's hearing the gunshot that took his son's life. >> meanwhile, john, we've had so many people get up on that stand and testify in the affirmative that they believe that that is george zimmerman's voice. again, this is the defense's turn to put on their case. they've been putting on witness after witness that says, yes,
that's george. is the biggest onus on the fact that the jury keeps hearing the fact that george zimmerman said that doesn't sound like me? >> i think that the detective kind of answered that question. i think it's probably true. many of us do not know what our voice really sounds like. we hear is, but we don't hear it often enough. he very well may have coffvered that point. i think mr. martin's testimony in the manner of which it was given, although the prosecution tried mightily to create the circumstance, it will be hurtful in the grand scheme of things. to the extent the jurors have to make some determination, they may cancel out all of these people. but to the extent that the father is now on the side of the defense in terms of his statements, i think, hurts the prosecution a lot more on the issue of whose voice is it. then you have the circumstantial evidence about how to evaluate it. but this is good testimony for the defense in terms of how they laid out mr. martin's testimony. now, if he comes in and
testifies and changes his story, i think his credibility will be called into question. >> and this could all be ramping up to tracy martin taking the stand today. there had been word that the defense would be calling him. let's go back inside the courtroom. >> did -- presuming that was brandy green, did -- >> i believe that's who it was. >> did she say anything about whose voice she thought it was on the tape? >> i don't recall hearing her say anything. >> okay. but again, mr. martin's words were -- >> that that was not his son's voice. >> nothing further, your honor. >> cross? >> good afternoon again, officer singleton. do you recall actually tracy martin saying that was not his voice, that is not his son's voice? >> yes. >> okay. and you clearly heard him say those words? >> i don't know his exact words, but he was telling us it was not -- he was telling chris it was not his son's voice that was screaming for help.
>> he said words, in other words, like you're saying. >> yes. >> okay. and then after that he put his head down is what you're saying. >> i think it was even while listening to it that he was already crying. you could hear the gunshot. >> and so obviously you were sensitive of that to the fact that they were playing this recording to the father of the person that's being shot on the tape, correct? >> yes, i was choked up myself. i had to stand back, and i felt -- you know, i could feel how he must feel because i have children. i was choked up by it. i felt horrible for him. >> and you could see that and sense that in mr. martin? >> yes. >> okay. and now, were you there for the playing of all the recordings or just part of it? >> i don't know if there was more recordings. that just really stuck out in my mind because i remember feeling so awful for him that he would have to hear that.
>> so as far as you can recall, the one that you -- the only one you recall is the one where they were playing the recording of the screams but also the shooting of mr. martin's son. >> yes, and that's why it stood out in my mind. >> and what stood out in your mind is the pain that father must have been going through at the time. >> yes, to know that he was hearing the sound that ended his son's life was tough to watch. >> and did he, in your opinion, react as any grieving father would react? >> yes. he was very sad. >> now, he didn't get up and start screaming or anything, correct? he just basically put his head down and started crying, right? >> he was -- i could see him wiping tears from his eyes. i mean, he didn't -- he didn't lose it. i'm sure he was trying to hold himself together.
he's in the middle of a police department. but you could see that he was upset, of course. >> and as you indicated, even while you were doing it, even from a distance away, it was hard for you to listen to that, correct? >> yes, and i had already heard it. >> and i think you've already stated you felt awful for him, correct? >> i can't imagine having to go through that because i have children, and i couldn't imagine. >> thank you, ma'am. >> thank you. any redirect? >> as sad as it was, both for you to listen to and obviously for mr. martin to go through, is there any doubt in your mind that he had said that was not his son's voice that he heard screaming? >> no, there's no doubt he was telling us that didn't sound like his son to him. >> thank you.
nothing further, your honor. >> may officer singleton be excused? >> yes, your honor. >> subject to recall. >> you're excused subject to being recalled. today? >> no. >> they'll call you. thank you. call your next witness, please. >> defense would call adam pollack. >> may we approach the bench? >> yes, you may. >> let's go ahead and bring in msnbc legal analyst lisa bloom, criminal defense attorney john burress. lisa, let me start with you. bringing back doris singleton once again. she was on the stand earlier. again, getting down to the nitty-gritty here about the tape and tracy martin, his reaction to listening to that altercation between george zimmerman, trayvon martin, and trayvon ultimately ending up dead. >> right. that's her third time on the stand for those keeping track at home. she had to talk about that very painful moment when the 911 call is played for the father of trayvon martin and he said it
did not sound like his son. and the prosecution brought out on cross-examination that this was a tremendously emotional moment. even this police detective felt emotional. she said she was choked up because she's a mother herself and she put herself in his shoes and imagined how he must feel. the defense attorney, i thought, very skillfully tried to bring it back to the point that he called her for, which was even though it was a very sad, emotional moment, you have no doubt that he said that was not his son's voice. she had to acknowledge that's what was said at that time. >> john, you were saying if tracy martin gets on the stand and goes into saying he does believe it's trayvon now, you say that really delineates any credibility that he has. >> not as a dad, of course. but certainly on his testimony about this issue. you know, once you give a definitive statement and walk back from that, jurors have a right to question, why are you walking back? it's understandable. it's his son. he wants to believe it. i'll tell you there's another
point the defense did here that was extremely important, and that was ms. green. if ms. green is there, she's hearing all this, he would have thought -- he's trying to suggest that if she knew it was his voice, trayvon's voice, she would have spoken up loud and clearly. she didn't do that. he remained silent. she may have been consoling mr. martin. stateme at the same time, the defense could make the point that there was another person in the room who knew his voice and could have stepped up to make that statement and did not. they have two people in that room that ultimately could be hurtful. >> let's go back in. we're listening to defense witness adam pollack. >> tell me if you would what your first experience was in this area that you've taken on as your career. >> i started in the gym at about 4 years old. i've been in the gyms my entire life. i started as a competitive athlete and worked into a trainer and that eventually led
into being a gym owner and kind of worked its way. that's what i do now. >> when you say competitive athlete, tell us a bit more about what that means. >> i started off as a child playing a variety of competitive sports, including soccer, basketball, racketball, fighting for boxing and mai tai. >> tell me about your experience in fighting. >> i've been involved in fight training for a majority of my life. i started competing regularly after about 18. i did that for quite a few years. >> what type of competing are you speaking of? >> for mai tai work. >> explain if you would to the jury what that is for those of us who don't know. >> very much like boxing but it's another ring sport like
boxing. with mai tai, you're allowed to punch, kick, knee, elbow, clench. you can hold and hit. >> is that, i guess, closer to what we might call kickboxing? >> yes. >> okay. and you competed in that? >> correct. >> for how many years? >> i don't know exactly. quite a few. >> okay. during that time, what else, what other training did you do, or how else did you involve yourself in this industry? >> i've been around weight training my whole life. my brother's a former mr. usa and national ranked bodybuilder and power lifter, so i just grew up in the gym. i have a fairly extensive background, you know, as far as the weight training and i also have a background with competiti competitive kettle bell lifting. >> have you ever assisted in other activities around the ring or for other fighters in it the ring? >> absolutely. >> what would that include? >> i've worked corners for both
amateur and professional fighters for all different levels of competition. >> what is working the corner mean? >> when you take the fighter to compete, somebody has to take care of the athlete. so when they come back to the corner between rounds, we're actually preparing them to go out and compete. when they come back to the corner between rounds, you have to make sure to give them water, any type of cuts, bruising, icing, et cetera, you have to address accordingly in a short period of time and send them back out to do the next round. >> if i asked you to guesstimate how many times you were a corner man -- >> too many to count. >> okay. and this is again during the same time that you have been involved in this industry both doing mai tai training and competing and other fighting? >> oh, yeah. this has been consistent over the last 20-plus years. >> if i were to say the term mma
to you, what would that mean? >> mixed martial arts. it's a competitive fighting sport. it's gotten extremely popular recently. >> is that the stuff we see if we watch such things on tv where you see a mix of kickboxing, regular boxing, and whatever else you can do? >> yes. in mixed martial arts, it's basically you can do, you know, almost boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, jujitsu, submission grappling to where you can punch, kick, et cetera. then when you get on to the ground, you can work submission holds, chokes, arm locks, leg locks, things of that nature. >> okay. so within the context of mma, there are a lot of different disciplines, or are there many different disciplines that can be folded into mma? >> absolutely. >> we've been listening to the testimony out of george zimmerman's trial. adam pollack there. we want to go to the ntsb giving
us an update in a briefing on that deadly plane crash in san francisco. >> -- boeing, pratt & whitney. we're also supported by the korean aviation and rail accident investigation board. they are our counterparts from korea. and they are supported by their technical advisers, asiana airlines. the ntsb employs a party system to help us in our investigations. we rely on our parties to provide us information to assist us and particularly to provide technical expertise. so for example, with the manufacturer of the aircraft, boeing, that would be about the design and the function and performance of the aircraft. pratt & whitney, it would be the
engines. we have a number of activities that we're undertaking. i'm going to talk to you about our ops, our operations, and our human performance team. they have documented the cockpit, the switch positions and locations. they also have located the pilot flight bags and the charts that they use for flight. they found the appropriate charts for the airport in the approach in place in the cockpit. they're now reviewing manuals and training. they're working to conduct 72-hour work rest histories. those 72-hour histories are really looking at the pilot's flight duty time, their rest opportunities, and the activities that have taken place in the days leading up to the crash. in our investigations, we're often looking for things that
might affect human performance like fatigue, like illnesses or medication, like health issues. so we will be looking at all of those things to see if there are any impacts on their ability to perform their jobs. we are working to interview all four pilots that were on the aircraft coming into san francisco. there were two pilots, and many of you all have talked about those two pilots. it was a captain who was working on his initial operating experience in the 777. he was an experienced pilot and a prior captain, but he was working on getting his rating on the 777 and getting initial operating experience in the 777. he was also flying with a check captain or a training captain. then there were two other crew
members, another captain and first officer who were also flying. again, remember this is a very long transpacific flight. so the four crew members are there for relief so that the others can get rest. when we interview those four crew members, we're going to get a lot more details about their activities, about their work, about their training, about who was the pilot flying, who was the pilot in command in the cockpit at the time of the accident. we're going to be looking to correlate all of that information with what we are finding on the cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder. it was important for us to wait until the arrival of our korean counterparts and also asiana when we conduct interviews. we utilize the party process. we do group interviews. we've got pilots who also might
need translation services during those interviews. we want to make sure those interviews are effective and that they're comprehensive. i know you all have a lot of questions about the pilots and their training. i will tell you that when we brief tomorrow, i hope to have a lot more information about the pilots just to head off some of those questions that i may not be able to answer today until those interviews are complete. >> we've been listening to the ntsb chairperson giving a brief update on where this ongoing investigation stands. obviously, from the information she's just imparted to us, we can tell how fluid this still is. again, working more details so that they can come back to all of us with something more concrete than we've already seen and what we already know out of that fatal crash that happened at san francisco international over the weekend. the other big story that we've been following for you today is the trial of george zimmerman. just recently on the stand there was adam pollack. we're going to take a quick break and come back with our legal eagles on the other side
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continuing the coverage of the george zimmerman trial. on the stand right now is adam pollack for the defense. lisa bloom has been watching this for us. we just came back after watching mark o'mara on the ground with adam pollack demonstrating mma moves. he's come on the stand to testify as being a fitness expert, knowing of the sport of mma. why is he so pivotal to what o'mara is trying to prove? >> mark o'mara likes to use physical demonstrations as much as possible in the courtroom. with this witness, he was demonstrating a muay thai or kickboxing stance with one person on the ground, one person on top. the witness, adam pollack, who has completed in muay thai and kickboxing for a number of years as a competitive athlete, was explaining that the mounted position is the power position. that's because gravity helps the person on the top in terms of throwing blows on the person on
the bottom. >> and i think we've got video of them. we're still cueing it up. i wanted to show it to everybody, the physicality. as you say, mark o'mara likes to demonstrate that physicality in the courtroom. the jury actually got to see o'mara as the victim, so to speak, on the ground with the expert there on top demonstrating that type of power position, what it means to have somebody in that formation. it's very interesting, though, to think about the fact that george zimmerman trained in mma, and now he's come into court. you know, before he was a shaved-head, dirty harry of his sanford neighborhood. now he's this big, fat wimp apparently that sits in the courtroom. i don't understand. >> can i say one other thing that came out in the testimony, which mark o'mara immediately skimmed past. that is that there are a number of ways that the person on the bottom can get out. there's a method that's apparently called shrimping that this witness explained. you can hook your foot around and get out from underneath.
if you are trained in mma, there are certainly ways you can get out from the powerless position and return to the powerful position and be on top. the witness started to go into some of that. >> all right. let's show it to everybody from court a moment ago. >> i would be between his legs, which would be much more of this nature. here, he's going to be able to use his hands and his legs and his arms to defend. here he's not going to have the same about to use the hands and the legs to defend. here he'd only be able to use his hands, and he'd be impaired somewhat because i'm going to have both my hands and legs available. >> if you go to the mounted position for a moment, and tell me why that's a more powerful position. >> well, here i've got a scenario where there's a lot more i can do to him than what he can do to me. you can see in the other scenario, there's more he can do to defend, to escape, to get out of that position. >> and while i'm here, how can the person on the bottom attempt to get out from a situation like this? >> there's a number of different things a person can do. one of them would be to attempt to pull the person down to
bridge and roll over. another one would be to attempt to escape your hips, which is similar to what's called shrimping. >> sorry, called what? >> shrimping. basically, you get on your side, i throw my knees down, try to get your hips out to get your leg around to put me back into a position where i would be in what's called the guard. >> okay. thank you. >> yes, sir. >> so lisa, that's where he brings up the shrimping, that formation. also, looking at mark o'mara, who's giving the questions from on his back on the ground and adam pollack making direct eye contact with the jury. again, if he's concealed the weapon behind his back and now he's on the ground and someone's pinned him to the ground, how does somebody on top see the gun? >> well, this is a point that i've been making. we know that george zimmerman in the re-enactment video demonstrated that the gun was
holstered behind his back inside his pants and beneath a shirt and a jacket. now, he's explained that his jacket moved as the two were tussling around, which does make some sense. but he has not explained how trayvon martin could have seen the gun through his body with the gun being behind him. add to that the gun was black, the holster was black. it was a very dark night. i think there's a lot more explaining that the defense needs to do and perhaps on cross-examination of this witness the prosecution may ask some of those questions. >> all right. we go back in. adam pollack on the stand. >> normal training sessions are two hours long. >> and did you sort of supervise seeing how he was doing in the grappling? >> i supervise all of it. >> tell the jury if you would just how accomplished he was at grappling. >> he wasn't. he was ranked beginner. >> what do you mean by that? >> well, there's a difference between an accomplished athlete and somebody who's there who's
just not physically an accomplished individual. i mean, if you look at a professional athlete in any sport, you know, it's really easy to say, well, this guy has just done a certain amount of work work, but there's also a certain amount of predisposition they have of athleticism, of strength that feeds for that. then the more they train, the better they get and stronger they get and faster they get and thing of that nature. let's say we figured a scale of one to ten. if you start off on a scale of one, you're going to do a lot more work to get to ten. if you start off on a scale of five because you've done a bunch of work previously, there's less work it's going to take to get you to ten comparatively. >> okay. >> usually when you see an accomplished athlete, you know, when they come into a gym, they've already had a history as a child of all kinds of athletics they've been exposed to. if you have an adult that hasn't had that type of background exposure, they're going to have a bit more work and probably never going to get to the same i
did -- degree of someone with that childhood background has had. >> on that scale of one to ten, when george zimmerman first got to you, what number would you assign to his abilities? >> 0.5. >> less than a one? >> yes. >> i'm going to sort of fast forward. as a grappler having been through -- or let me ask this. tell us about the length of time where mr. zimmerman was involved with your gym. >> george actually trained, once i looked up the information. it was just under a year he was actually part of the gym as far as training goes. of that he had some time he had put his membership on hold because of his schedule and whatnot. >> okay. for future purposes and to keep the record clear, i know you may call him by his first name, but we're going to use first and last name, george zimmerman, if you would, so we keep it very clear. >> yes, sir. >> he was there for about a year, minus a few months of hiatus, did you say? >> yes.
>> okay. during that time, then, i understand he did some grappling. and he did some other type of training. >> boxing training. >> okay. anything else? >> he would occasionally come in to use the facility on his own. >> so let's talk about boxing. he came to you, i think you said, at 0.5. >> correct. >> and when he -- do you remember when he left approximately? >> when he left? >> when he stopped coming to the gym? >> after the incident. >> in the months prior to the incident, presuming that happened in february of 2012, was he coming then or was that when he was on hiatus? >> that's when he was on hiatus. >> so going back in time, do you know about the last time he was at the gym? >> i don't have an exact date because i don't keep those records necessarily. he had asked me, i want to say, to put his account on hold for november, december. he might have just started coming back in, you know,
january-ish. >> of 2012, meaning that his account was on hiatus in 2011. >> the end of 2011. >> okay. so during that approximate year, give or take a few months he was involved with your facility and grappling, did he go from a 0.5 to what rating would you give him on your scale? >> maybe a one. >> why so little progress? >> well, it's not that he made such little progress, it's a tremendous amount of work. you know, i mean, it's really easy to get the concept that somebody joins up to gold's gym and they're automatically a professional bodybuilder or if somebody joins a fight gym and they're a world class fighter. it's a tremendous amount of work. it takes a lot of athleticism. >> did he simply not put that level of work into it? >> he was very diligent, very coachable, very pleasant to work with.
there's just a certain strength level and athleticism, and it takes a tremendous amount of time to develop that, and he didn't have that history and background of childhood athletics that helps to create that. >> so on a similar scale, if you would, not in the grappling environment but just in general athleticism, i think you've identified that you have a feel for where people fit in their abilities based upon their history and athleticism. on a scale of one to ten, where would mr. zimmerman fit? >> like i said, about a one. >> generally in his overall athleticism as well? >> well, as far as what i'm looking at in the gym, yes. >> talking about his proficiency in the boxing he took, first of all, tell us what it is -- what you do when you start out and where you progress to as you learn more about boxing. >> okay. the way we first start at my
facility is we start just simply getting proficient within your own body. if you don't have control of your body, it's not going to facilitate other things working well. so if i started somebody in the boxing ring sparring right off the bat before they know how to punch or defend or move, that's going to produce a pretty unpleasant result. you know, so instead of creating that type of situation where it's a liability and people are just getting damaged, you know, we'll start off learning how to control their body. footwork, you know, ab work, just learning integrity and aligning their frame. >> okay. and tell me then how mr. zimmerman came to you -- >> you've been listening to the testimony of adam pollack, who is testifying to the training george zimmerman did with boxing and mma fighting. our legal analyst lisa bloom is following all of this. lisa, what do you make of all this? because i'm sitting here, like,
on a scale of one to ten, george is a 0.5. and that's when he was skinny. now he'd be like a negative 200 because the man clearly has no athleticism as he sits there 150 pounds overweight. >> i think it's a small point but a nice point for the defense. ever since we heard about mma, mixed martial arts style fighting, in the prosecution case, we had a witness who said that the one on top was mma-style pounding and grounding. john goode said it was trayvon martin on top pounding george zimmerman mma style. >> but he trained for a year. it's like, if you have a gym membership with adam pollack, go ask for a refund. >> i don't know if you can necessarily blame the gym -- look, if you could blame the gym owner for not being in shape, i think millions of americans would have a good legal claim. >> well, he was in shape in february of 2012. he had just started back. he had taken time off for the holidays. who doesn't like a good holiday
away from the gym? i know i do. >> i hear your point. >> if you go to adam pollack's gym, ask for your money back. >> i think adam is making a different claim. having trained in muay thai and kickboxing myself, it does take a certain amount of time to train. he wasn't there for a couple of months. that's the testimony. >> okay. very interesting. lisa bloom, thank you for putting up with me. i appreciate it. we're going to let you get back to watching it. that's it for this edition of "news nation." "the cycle," they're laughing at me. they're next. stay tuned. they have waterbeds. ew. no! are we near a gas station? [ phone beeps] [ phone ] no. is that from the mini bar? [ both ] no. is that a cop? no. [ cop ] do you know how fast you were going? no. eighty-seven [ groans ] he's right. is that oscar mayer? [ karen] yes! [ male announcer ] in a world filled with "no", it's nice to finally say "yes". oscar mayer selects deli meat, no artificial preservatives and gluten free. it's yes food. it's oscar mayer.
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we begin in the courtroom on day ten of testimony in the george zimmerman murder trial. right now we're hearing from a gym owner and personal trainer familiar with zimmerman's mma training. let's listen in. >> you had an opportunity to see mr. zimmerman shortly after the altercation with mr. martin, correct? >> yes. >> can you tell the jury when that was? >> i don't know the exact date, but i would say it was within a couple days after the incident. >> describe him, if you would. did you notice what he looked like? >> he had black eyes. his nose was scraped up. he had some bandages on a his head. that was the obvious physical bruising he had. he looked emotionally traumatized. >> have you seen that in fighters that you've worked with? >> i've seen that in p