tv The Last Word MSNBC July 10, 2013 7:00pm-8:01pm PDT
on how it will affect women's health, lives, for generations to come. this is the national story. that does it for us, we'll see you again tomorrow night. now it is time for lawrence o'donnell, have a good one, thank you for joining us. testimony is complete in the george zimmerman trial and the lawyers will get exactly one more big chance to persuade the jury. >> the defense in the george zimmerman trial is close to resting its case. >> what is your decision, sir? >> he needs to tell her whether he is going to testify or not. >> after consulting the counsel. >> mr. zimmerman not taking the stand. >> he will not testify. >> the defense in the george zimmerman trial may be ending its case. >> may we have an opportunity to speak, the case is not concluded. >> tempers flare. >> your objection is overruled. >> the attorney objected a couple of times to the court's only questions. >> you can't really object to
the judge's only question. >> says zimmerman would have been at a physical disadvantage. >> and the comparison between the two individuals. >> he compared the physical fitness of the two men. >> compared the physical ability. >> that george zimmerman was no match for him. what are we going to see from the prosecution side? will there be redirect? >> you have never testified in a case like this. >> the defense in the george zimmerman trial rested today. >> then it will move to closing arguments. >> setting the stage for closing argument arguments which start tomorrow. >> after five days of testimony, the defense rested its case today in the second degree murder trial of george zimmerman. but before he did, judge deborah nelson asked the defendant if he was planning to testify.
>> have you made a decision as to whether or not you want to testify in this case? >> i object to that question. i think that is -- >> overruled, the court is entitled to acquire mr. zimmerman's determination as to whether or not he wants to testify. mr. zimmerman have you made a decision as to whether or not you want to testify in this case? >> no at this time, your honor. >> and how long do you think you need before you make that decision? >> may we have an opportunity to speak? the case is not concluded yet. >> i understand that. and i've asked mr. zimmerman if he needed more time to talk to his attorneys. and if he does, i will afford it to him. mr. zimmerman, how much more time do you think you will need to discuss this with your attorneys? >> it will depend on how long the recesses are your honor. >> well, if your attorneys have finished with two witnesses before the end of the day, do you think you would then know
whether or not you would testify -- >> on mr. zimmerman's behalf. >> i am asking the client questions, please, mr. west. >> i object to the court inquiring of mr. zimmerman as to his decision on whether or not he will testify -- >> your objection is overruled. mr. zimmerman, i will give you more time, sir, to discuss this with your attorneys, thank you very much. >> and after that very strange interlude, about two hours later george zimmerman confirmed what most court observers already observed. >> did you now have time to discuss with your attorneys whether or not you will testify? >> yes, your honor. >> and i don't know to know what the discussions were, but have you made a decision, sir? >> yes. >> and what is your decision. >> after consulting with counsel, not to testify. >> joining me, lisa bloom, faith jenkins, and former criminal
prosecutor and prosecutor, marcia clark. there are so many things -- >> i object to that question. >> am i allowed to ask questions -- >> let's get this straight, when the judge asks the question, you are supposed to answer that. >> i agree, but what were the defense lawyers so nervous about in that exchange between the judge and george zimmerman? >> well, first of all, you can see why he will not testify. he can't answer a question with a straight answer, the judge is trying to move this along because of the sequestered jury. the judge just rattles off the questions, do you understand your rights? you're not going to testify, yes, yes, yes, we're done. instead. zimmerman didn't really know what to say, the lawyer is trying to defend the client, bless his heart. >> marcia clark, give us your
idea of what this means. >> the jurors are always curious what the defendant is going to say, they want to hear his side of the story, how he will tell it. so when they don't hear it, they're a little disappointed. but in this case, there was so much they have heard about the case. there is not that much mystery to what he would say on the witness stand. i think there will be some disappointment. i don't know if it will be held against him. i don't think it will, i don't think it will ultimately matter. >> faith, how do you think zimmerman not testifying affects the closing arguments in the case? >> well, his statements are already out there. and it is the defense attorney's goal to try their case within a prosecutor's case and put their case forward. they have been able to do that. and all they have to do is establish reasonable doubt. that is what they will focus on, his statement, and corroborating his statements with the evidence put forward in their case and
also the prosecutor's case. that is what they will focus on. >> we have testimony like i have never seen before, from a so-called fighting expert today who testified to a fight that he was not in. and testified about what happened, in a fight where two were fighting, one is dead and not going to take the witness stand. and i want to go to the testimony, especially something that prosecutor attorney guy did, in effect, using this witness as the george zimmerman stand-in. let's look at the way this worked. >> am i in the area? >> yes, sir? >> okay. by the way, did you have the defendant do that? >> knows. >> okay, if this person, this mannequin were carrying a firearm on their waist, where would the gun be right now in relation to me? >> would be at your left inner
thigh. >> right here, right? >> right, if he were left-handed it would be inside your leg. >> okay, were you aware the defendant described to his best friend that when he slid down, the defendant slid down, that trayvon martin was up around his arm pits, were you aware of that? >> no, i heard that. no, sir. >> okay, where would the gun be now? >> now, the gun would be behind your left leg. >> establishes a couple of things, one, the defense witness is supposed to know about all the facts, doesn't know about that little thing about the arm pit. mr. guy wanted the jury looking at that saying how does he get the gun out with this position, was that an effective moment for the prosecution? >> it was okay, once again, the prosecution didn't drive it home. he didn't point out that in the reenactment video, he appears to reach behind and get the holster
behind him. it wouldn't have been anywhere near his left thigh, it would have been imbedded in the grass, inside his pants with the shirt and jacket covering it. that has never been pointed out to the jury, that is a big problem. the other problem is, the defense is going with the theory -- it is very bad for the prosecution, he is down, getting beaten. i think many people could say in that situation, he would point the gun, why not bring out the other theory? stand that dummy up. have them standing vertical, as many eye witnesses testified there were two men standing, running, how about putting george zimmerman on the top as several witnesses have testified. give the jury a visual of that. they missed the case. >> faith, one thing, the defense has spent a lot of time on this, george zimmerman is a wimp. george zimmerman cannot throw a
punch, he can barely clench a fist, he can barely walk down the street. they make him a physical incompetent, in the most extreme possible okay. they're saying this extreme competent on his back with the legs basically being trapped, that physical incompetent guy somehow got his gun out. >> and where are his hands during this entire encounter? that is what the defense is not accounting for, he may not be the most physically fit person, still he can use his hands to maneuver. lisa, to your point, i think what john guy is doing there, the prosecution is not aware of any particular theory about the positioning here when trayvon martin, and george zimmerman with their altercation, they're saying the defense's theory is simply implausible. >> i know, but i'm tired of hearing about the defense's theory. >> think about what they're going to argue, two people in
the altercation, one is dead, one is -- >> the prosecution has the burden of proof, they need to have a theory of the case. and they need to put it forward in front of the jury with some confidence. not just be continuously going on the defense's script. >> if the jury doesn't believe george zimmerman, he gets convicted. >> marcia clark, the jury is faced with a dead 17-year-old and a decision made by an adult male. what burden, even though we understand in jurisprudence the burden of proof is on the prosecution and all that. but the truth is, juries do impose certain burdens during the stages. what is your sense that the jury places on george zimmerman in making his decision to use the death of trayvon martin as retaliation move against
whatever? the notion is, that trayvon martin was doing to him. >> in a general sense, the jury hopefully brings a common sense view to bear on all the questions of fact that are put before them. so you have a situation where this man who lives in the neighborhood, the neighborhood watch has a command of the location is in his suv, engine running, lights on, when he sees someone he describes as a kid walking down the walkway. and you know, right away you have this man who knows he is armed with a gun. who knows the neighborhood and sees somebody he describes as a kid. and he is calling the cop and making sure the cops are coming. so he has all the power and weight behind him, if you will. and he gets out of the car, and supposedly, the street name, which by the way i do not buy in a small location like that, he doesn't remember the name of one of three streets where he walks his dog in the neighborhood watch. so already i think the jury would look at that with common sense and say look, he is
hunting the guy down and feels confident doing it, because he is armed and feels confident because the cops are coming. and then he gets into a fight with him. however that happens, if you believe rachel jeantel, like i do, it happens because george zimmerman confronted him, a fight started. h when he saw he was losing the fight, he shot him. at that point, the jury has to believe he was in imminent death and reason to believe he was going to die, and therefore had no choice but to shoot him. but i think the weight of the evidence is, he says even if he was able to get his hands free. and this is why i didn't mind the demonstration that john guy did in the court today. even if you take his very best scenario, take his word, it doesn't make sense, because george zimmerman said he could pull one hand free and moved trayvon martin's hand away from his face, if you have both hands
free, why can't you just push the guy off you. i am hoping the jury will bring the common sense to them, who sees that george zimmerman is the older, aware of his power -- >> key phrase i just heard from marcia, and that is no choice. for george zimmerman, it had to come down to absolutely no choice other than to kill. is this jury of mothers go to believe that there was no choice -- no other possible way to handle the 17-year-old -- >> this is all very rational and logical, but i think if the jury thinks that george zimmerman is down and got his head pounded on to concrete even a couple of times and got punched in the face. and it is hard if your fighting on the ground, and it is hard to get up. i think if the jury has that in their mind right at the end, there will be an acquittal. >> the prosecution is going to argue and focus on the fact that george zimmerman is the initial
aggress aggressor, that is going to be the argument, he was the initial aggressor. so what if trayvon martin was on top, one minute you're on top, the next you're not. >> all right, we're going to come right back with more on this, and the final arguments. okay, we're going to be back with more of that. and later, we're going to have a woman whose testimony went viral when she was thrown out of the hearing for being just a little too rough on the senators who were trying to restrict her reproductive freedom. you will see what happened in the hearing, and then she will join me in a last word exclusive. vo: traveling you definitely end up meeting a lot more people but
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hearing, bombing suspect, dzhokhar tsarnaev responded to the bombing charges, the charges were read, and he responded not guilty to each one. he and his brother carried out the attack on april 15th that wounded more than 260 people in boston at the marathon site. up next, a preview of the closing arguments in the trial of george zimmerman. [ brent ] now steve's looking pretty good so far. [ herbie ] eh, hold on brent, what's this? mmmm, nice car. there's no doubt, that's definitely gonna throw him off. she's seen it too. oh this could be trouble. [ sentra lock noise ] oh man. gotta think fast, herbie. back pedal, back pedal. [ crowd cheering ] oh, he's down in flames and now the ice-cold shoulder. one last play... no, game over! gps take him to the dog house. [ male announcer ] make a powerful first impression. the all-new nissan sentra. ♪
diarrhea, gas, bloating? yes! one phillips' colon health probiotic cap each day helps defend against these digestive issues... with three strains of good bacteria. [ phillips' lady ] live the regular life. phillips'. what george did was an intentional act in that he knew he was pulling the trigger. the reason why he did it was
self defense, and that doesn't suggest a manslaughter charge would be appropriate. no, no, no, it is going to be much longer. >> that was defense attorney mark o'mara after the court session today. back with me, lisa bloom, faith jenkins, and marcia clark, author of the new novel, "killer ambition." marcia, starting off the day, the defense's animation can be used, not as an exhibit. it will not be something going into the jury room with the exhibits but it can be shown to them used as an illustration device during the closing arguments. so it seems like we'll see it during closing arguments, how do you expect it to work? >> well, they will use it as an exhibit as an illustration of their view of the case. showing, of course, that george zimmerman was the victim and that trayvon martin was the
aggressor. will it work? i know that many say it can be extremely impressive to the jury. but in my experience you can tip it a little too far to the cartoon side. the fact that this animation looks like avatar can make it look like a cartoon event. what i think, something much more compelling is john guy getting on top of the dummy in the courtroom. that brings it home better to me, than this, that is not very real. >> they were eager to get this animation in through testimony and introduced through testimony. but now it will be a tool through final argument? >> yeah, i don't think it is that significant. i think we have to give this jury some credit for intelligence, they realize this was put through defense expert's testimony, they are going to decide this case based on the
evidence, not a cartoon. >> faith, the closing argument -- >> george zimmerman is a mother's worst nightmare. because you send your teenager to the store. and you expect that they come home and will be okay. and trayvon martin was walking home with nothing but skittles and a drink, and he had a 12-year-old waiting for him where he was staying. and he ends up dead. he was not a suspect. he was not doing anything wrong. he was minding his own business and is dead because that man, george zimmerman, thought he was suspicious. >> and marcia, what can the prosecution say in court about george zimmerman not testifying? >> nothing. absolutely nothing. >> they're barred from making any reference to it, right? >> any comment, any comment at all. he has a right to remain silent and any comment on that right
would be grounds for a mistrial right there. so they can't say anything about it. >> and lisa, given the box where the lawyers always are, where the defendant doesn't take the stand they're always trying to find a way to still exploit that and still say it without saying it. >> that is case, we have him on video, and if i'm prosecuting the case, i'm going to use that video against him. i'm going to talk about ill will and spite, because that is second degree murder. my goodness, we have him on tape, saying on tape, that he is an a-hole, and an f-punk. if that is not ill will -- do you think he got fonder of trayvon martin while they were fighting? that is the video i would put up for the jury where he says it was god's plan. >> let's put it up right now,
they probably will use it in final argument. >> no remorse. >> a lot of it has to do withstawith stand your ground, you have heard a lot about it. i was curious, prior to this incident, you had never heard about "stand your ground before"? >> no. >> you never heard about it before, wow. >> now, marcia, that is him not telling the truth. that is what george zimmerman looks like not telling the truth. now, the jury is going to have to decide how big an untruth that is. that is what it is. >> it is very telling among all the other things he has said. this is a tough case for the prosecution to put together in that it requires a lot of pieces to refer to. and a lot of these pieces are inconsistent statements that george zimmerman has said. that among them. to me, i think they have to focus on the defining moments of what happened that night. i'm with lisa, i think the fact that he clearly is targeting trayvon martin. he sees this kid walking.
he jumps to a conclusion, the fact they put in the prior calls to 911 showing his mounting frustration with the police, and the fact that these punks always get away with it. and that is a mindset that shows you he is up to no good himself. he is framing trayvon martin, the kid is walking down the block and says he is up to no good, what? serena said, for what you described him doing, i would not have stopped him or questioned him. >> in the video, he talks about god, he is not only the neighborhood watch, he is god's instrument. he is still calling trayvon martin a suspect. i think if you interviewed him today he would probably say the same thing because that is what he thought about this young man. >> and let's talk about race, race is an issue in this case. the five people he called about who were suspicious.
before trayvon martin, five out of five were african american. trayvon martin was clearly called those names and texarkanaed because he is african american. i mean, is there really any doubt in anyone's mind about that? i think the prosecution has to address that squarely. because there was a witness today who talked about a burglary in the neighborhood, and it was a young african male, what is the point of that? if somebody is young and black walking in the neighborhood, we should call the cops? >> the witness came in, george zimmerman had a legitimate reason for finding trayvon martin suspicious because other young black men had targeted the neighborhood. >> because there was another young black burglar in the world. >> they're smart, when the prosecutors say profiling trayvon martin, they're going to know they were not profiling him because of the type of candy he was wearing, but the way he looked, how he was dressed. >> go ahead, marcia. >> beyond that, let's give him
that, let's say, you have had so many burglaries by african american men and you see another one walking down the street and you get suspicious. okay, you call the cops, fine. but what you do after that, if the guy had not gotten out of his car or approached trayvon martin we wouldn't be sitting here. that is really the bottom line that the prosecution has to hammer home at -- >> i don't think that would give him that. there is one burglary -- >> i'm not saying he is right. i'm saying even if you give him what he claims to be his justification. even if you give him that, and i'm not saying you should, but at the very least what is he doing getting out of his car evenjustified? >> we have to wrap it there tonight, marcia clark, faith jenkins, and lisa bloom, thank you for joining us. coming up, the most recent report on edward snowden, and the country he may be heading
for next. and next, the woman who got dragged out of the senate hearing, really did, in the texas capital. sarah slamen will be here coming up. (girl) we should do that. (guy) i caught a falcon. (guy) you could eat a bug. let's do that. (guy) you know you're eating a bug. (girl) because of the legs. (guy vo) we got a subaru to take us new places. (girl) yeah, it's a hot spring. (guy) we should do that. (guy vo) it did. (man) how's that feel? (guy) fine. (girl) we shouldn't have done that. (guy) no. (announcer) love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. chalky... not chalky. temporary... 24 hour. lots of tablets... one pill. you decide. prevent acid with prevacid 24hr. thto fight chronic. osteoarthritis pain.
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has become one of the heroes fighting for women's pre productive health in texas today. today, they approved a restrictive anti-abortion bill, now going to the state senate for a vote later this week. that is of course, where the same bill died in the last senate session thanks to a filibuster by state senator wendy davis. earlier this week, in the texas's health and human services committee, members of the public were invited to give testimony. so sarah slamen got in her toyota matrix at 5:30 in the morning and drove the 90 miles to the state capitol. she spent the day, the whole day and night waiting to testify. and finally, at 11:00 p.m., sarah slamen's moment came. >> sarah slamen. >> thank you, chair committee,
my name is sarah slamen, i'm here to testify about the politics, i am tired of the greed, born in the state i lived in. you guys have worn me down all day with all of this terrible science and glad-handing. and to be frank, i get to move to new york next month so i don't have to live in fear of your texas legislators anymore, and what you're going to do about this. i will thank you, though, first. it was destiny that you would discriminate against us and try to force yourself inside the bodies of women, thank you for working against us women so publicly and not in the shadows like you are used to. thank you for your press conference and bad information. thank you for your hateful
statements, reducing women to brood mares, you have radicalized hundreds of thousands of us. no matter what you do, women and their allies are coming for you. let's start down the line, senator campbell, you're an eye doctor, i won't make you the expert on productive health. we can give you all the children with problems, since we don't have sex ed. you are about as -- excuse me, this is my government, ma'am. i will judge you. i will judge you, ma'am. is this counting against my time? >> yes, it is. >> the senator talking against me. >> yes, it is. >> well, i will just go ahead and talk over her, this is how big of a fraud you are, it is a low bar that you hold yourself to that you simply allowed us to speak, and i will speak against an eye doctor who says that everyone on the internet can see what you're doing now. this is a farce, the texas
legislator is a bunch of liars who hate women. >> is gary oldham here? >> yes, ma'am. >> tell us -- >> go ahead. >> thank you. >> sarah slamen will join me next, live from texas. there she is, coming up. i want to make things more secure. [ whirring ] [ dog barks ] i want to treat more dogs. ♪ our business needs more cases.
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oh. ♪ don't you ♪ don't you wanna, wanna ♪ don't you ♪ don't you wanna, wanna stress sweat is different than heat and activity sweat -- it smells worse. secret clinical strength gives you four times the protection against stress sweat. live fearlessly with secret clinical strength. . >> excuse me, this is my government, ma'am, i will judge you. i will judge you, ma'am. is this counting against my time? >> yes r, it is. >> the senator talking against me. >> yes, it is, well, i will just go ahead and talk over her. >> sarah slamen joins me now in a last word exclusive. sarah, you're right, this is your government. and tonight, this is your show. so go ahead and finish telling those texas legislators what you wanted to tell them.
>> thank you so much for having me on tonight, lawrence. it means so much to the millions and millions of women in texas and our allies, that eyes and ears are on the state of texas and the state of north carolina in our very serious time of need. what i would say to all the republicans on the senate health and human services committee, is i understand why you're so careless with our health care, you see all of your consistency lies east of i-5, where the five clinics remain after that bill gets passed, will be none of your consistencies west of i-35, so i guess the lives of their families just don't matter to you. >> and sarah, when i listened to you, it sounded like sitting there all day listening to the senators had a real effect on what you wanted to say once you got up there. >> yeah, basically after 12 hours of hearing not only bad
expert witnesses from the authors of the bill, but anti-choice testimony after anti-choice testimony, insulting women. calling us murderers, killers, insinuating that we're promiscuous, without one address to that decorum, i hit my breaking point when a woman that told the extremely moving story of the medically necessary abortion she had to have, for a child who was going to be born with spina bifida. i know two people who adopted those children. it was pointed, painful. i scrapped my original speech and wanted to get to work on research for every person on that committee. >> and you were going right down the list on every one of them. and you could see where they got worried really fast, as soon as you started doing that. >> yeah, they don't want to hear
about the fact that the majority of families in texas are single parent families, and the overwhelming majority of those single parent families are headed by women. and that 63% of low wage workers and minimum wage workers in texas are women. and that every single thing to keeps low income, especially low income women of color from raising more children in those families is everything that keeps them from getting to those hearings. i'm privileged as a white woman from a middle class background to be able to attend all of those hearings. women with two and three jobs, the 20% of women who live in rural areas, they can't get to the hearings and stand up for their rights. and it is obvious that all the republicans on the committee don't care about the rights of their health care either, so somebody had to say that. >> do you feel -- when they invite the citizen testimony you often get the feeling of the person who is standing up speaking for herself or he is speaking for himself, did you have the feeling that you were
speaking for more than just yourself? >> yes, you know, i'm a southern woman. and we are socialized to be hospitalable, but women all over the world are told to suppress their disagreement, there is a palpable feeling of anger, weariness, from a leadergislatu that is 85% male. we're tired of that. it is obvious they were not going to protect us from bad behavior. they can't act ethically, the rules keep changing, the players stay the same. i knew a carthasis was needed. that is what a thousand women said. you said what i was thinking, i cried with relief watching you speak.
>> sarah slamen, it was a beautiful thing to watch. and the crowd was with you on the way out of the building. you had an awful lot of supporters there. i know you had a lot of supporters in this audience, sarah, thank you, very much for joining us tonight. >> thank you, lawrence. coming up, edward snowden gives another interview to glenn greenwald, and next in the rewrite, republicans who want to reduce the number of irs employees because you know, irs employees are not processing tax exempt applications fast enough. right. irs is not working fast enough so reduce the employees? that is the way the republicans see it. and that is next in the rewrite. handing her over for surgery is the hardest thing i've... ever had to do. before obamacare, insurance companies could put lifetime... caps on your health insurance. once you hit that cap... they don't pay anymore. zoe was half way to her cap before her first birthday. anncr: obamacare ended lifetime caps
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sense for the republicans to do that because they're so mad about the fake scandal at the irs in which they have accused the irs agents of taking way too long to approve the tea party's tax exempt status. but if you wanted to speed up that process wouldn't you hire more irs employees to rush those applications through? i guess if you're not a republican you wouldn't. all of those applications have to go through a special unit, as we know now in the cincinnati office as has been widely reported. and here is what the manager of that group told the republican committee staff about how overwhelmed they are with tax exempt applications. on an annual basis, we receive upwards of 70,000 applications each year. on a monthly basis there could be 5,000 applications that would go through my group.
they would typically look at 20 to 25 cases daily. it is just that the volumes, i hope you can appreciate the volumes that we're dealing with here. and you know, with limited resources the 70,000 cases a year, it gets to be daunting sometimes. yeah, i would think. when the republican committee staff heard that they had the bright idea to cut the budget of the irs. but the irs is the government's big profit center, every dollar spent on irs enforcement actually makes money for the federal government. here is how the acting irs commissioner explained that to house republicans last month, when he was hopelessly asking for an increase in the irs budget. >> we have asked for kind of an increase on the enforcement budget of $412 million that would yield more than $1.6
billion in annual enforcement revenue, which is a return on investment of 6 dollars returned for every one dollar invested. >> but if you want an even better return than 600% you can aim even more enforcement resources at the giant corporations can giant tax returns or giant pots of money owed to the government. irs data show that auditors assigned, found $9,000 of additional tax owed for every hour spent testing tax returns in the 2009 fiscal year. $9300 an hour, that is how much each irs agent was delivering to the united states treasury for
every hour spent on giant corporate tax returns. $9300 an hour, and how much were those highly specialized irs auditors being paid? $71 an hour, so each of those $71 an hour returns to the government $9300. david johnson put that in annual terms, based on the hours worked, that works out to $19 million of lost revenue annually for every senior corporate auditor position cut. i understand people who think that the defense department is a
huge bloated payroll, as i do, or the agriculture department or the commerce department. i think they all are. but they don't really make money for the federal government. and if you think the irs is a huge payroll, what you cannot deny is that they are the workers who do make money for this government. and what you also cannot deny is that because cutting the irs budget is a politically very, very easy thing to do, irs staffing has already dropped from $114,000 in 1995, to $91,000 in 2012. and during that period, the number of tax returns filed has increased by $31 million. since, of course, the population of workers has increased. so tax returns increasing. irs workers decreasing. there is at least one republican
who feels kind of a little protective of the irs budget. senator orrin hatch is the highest ranking republican over the senate finance committee which has jurisdiction over the irs. senator hatch bravely ventured this statement to the hill. i would like to do away with the irs by having tax reform that doesn't require that. now, that, of course is the standard republican party line about tax reform that then eliminates the irs, which of course, adults like orrin hatch know will absolutely never happen. and adults like orrin hatch also know that when you want it to happen, it is a very easy way to be a player in washington. but senator hatch then said this about the 24% budget cut. he would be very concerned if that were the amount.
that would be pretty steep under the circumstances because they do have a very tough job. and one of of the places where those irs agents do that very tough job is ogden, utah, where the irs is the biggest employer. orrin hatch, of course, is the senior citizen from utah. oh, utah, land of the greatest snow on earth. and tax returns. "i'm part of an american success story," "that starts with one of the world's most advanced distribution systems," "and one of the most efficient trucking networks," "with safe, experienced drivers." "we work directly with manufacturers," "eliminating costly markups," "and buy directly from local farmers in every region of the country." "when you see our low prices, remember the wheels turning behind the scenes, delivering for millions of americans, everyday. "dedication: that's the real walmart"
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tonight, wikileaks is silent about edward snowden's flight of liberty campaign that they launched last night. he said he could not give further details of the campaign but said to watch for further announcements. he also declined to comment on whether or not wikileaks had enough money to pay for edward snowden's flight out of moscow. the guard, glenn greenwald interviewed snowden and then
told reuters that venezuela is likely to take snowden. he denied he gave classified information to the governments of china or russia, and denied assertions that one or both governments had succeeded in draining the contents of his laptops, never gave any information to either of the governments and they never took anything from my laptops, he said. glenn greenwald noted that his statement is not dispositive but should be treated as the only actual evidence on this question thus far. joining me now, the washington editor at large, steve clemons, steve, this poll has edward snowden winning the debate at the american kitchen table, anyway. they asked a very simple minded question, do you regard snowden
as a whistle-blower or traitor? 35% said whistle-blower, 45% said traitor. also, i think much more important than -- and i think well-phrased question, what concerns you more about the government's anti-terrorism policies that they have gone too far in restricting the average american's civil liberties or they have not gone far enough to protect the country? 49% say they have gone too far. and 40% say they have not gone far enough. and here is how it can be seen, in 2010, look at this huge difference. in 2010, only 25% believed that the anti-terrorism policies had gone too far in restricting civil liberties. 63%, you know, were perfectly okay with it. so this -- this is a real effect.
there is some real movement happening in the way the country thinks about this. >> i think that is exactly right. if i advised the president today, i would say let snowden fade off the pages a little bit. don't get in his way to venezuela and go back and read the speech that the president gave several weeks ago at the national defense university saying he was going to invite citizens and the congress to roll back the massive executive powers that it built during this global war on terror that started under bush and cheney. and that president obama has continued. i think what glenn greenwald and snowden have done is punctuated the importance of what the president said needed to happen. and i think that would be the best action plan, to stop talking about edward snowden, the man, and what he triggered and get back to the substance of what we need to do as a democracy. that is why this is a very interesting pivot point in our
history, and that is why snowden may be looked at kindly in history. >> that seems to be not what they're talking about, thank you very much for sticking with good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes, tonight on "all in" the fear factor as the defense rests in the trial of george zimmerman, closing arguments set to begin tomorrow, already, bill o'reilly and others are raising the racial spector. the oil train, what went wrong to cause this truly horrific crash? and the river of fire that's killed at least 20 people and absolutely devastated a small town in quebec. plus, the tea party in georgia, is all for solar energy, and now they're going head to head with the koch brothers over it, this is reality trumping politics. i will have the national