tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC August 21, 2013 8:00pm-9:01pm PDT
programs. part of obama care only subsidized it. didn't change it. just subsidized it. >> ari melber, the closer, gets tonight's last word. chris hayes is up next. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. tonight on "all in" a former gop staffer is diagnosed with cancer and converts to become an obama care believer. he will be here with his story. also tonight all that fear mongering by the national rifle association about a vast gun registry when all of the information about gun owners is collected and stored in a secret database. turns out that wasn't so crazy after all. we found out there is one, and we'll tell you the surprising answer to who set it up. that is coming up. plus, the apartment building plan for new york city that has separate entrance, one for rich residents and one in the affordable housing units. pretty stark example of the fracturing of america along lines of class. my guest tonight thinks it's a
great idea. stay tuned for that. but we begin with incredible, shocking enthuse out of syria. a possible chemical weapons massacre with the government of president bashar al assad with casualties from 100 to more than 1,200. the latter figure if confirmed would amount to one of the greatest war crimes of the past several decades. nbc news cannot verify the authenticity of the amateur video we are about to show you. it purports to show victims of the attacks and contains images of injured adults and children that may be considered disturbing. >> reporter: this morning syrian rebels tell us there was a series of what they claim were chemical weapons attacks. ten villages at least it to the east and north of damascus hit by what rebels say were surface to surface missiles fired by the regime and tipped with chemical weapons. the death toll well over 1,000. symptoms before death, witnesses tell us, were shortness of breath, constricted pupils, foaming at the mouth.
we've seen videos posted online showing many women and children among the dead. the syrian government has denied categorically that it was responsible for this attack, denied that it used chemical weapons. >> that was nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel reporting, who will join us in a moment. it should be noted that the syrian observatory for human rights, which operates out of britain but employs a number of contacts inside syria, so far confirms 136 deaths as a result of this morning's attacks. it stands as the most violent military assault of that particular area since the beginning of the uprising. as we continue to show you this amateur video, it should be note that had much of it we choose not to show because it contains uncovered bodies, many of them children. but this still photo captures a sliver of the horror, syrian citizens trying to identify the dead bodies of children in damascus. we've blurred the faces in this picture. more amateur video captures smoke rising in the aftermath of the bombings.
meanwhile, the stance of the major powers in regard to this conflict seems largely unchanged. the russian government accuses the rebels of unleashing the attack themselves, the pretext for incurring favor. the united states should facilitate the team of the u.n. inspectors. >> suffice it to say, though, that the use of chemical weapons is something the united states finds totally deplorable and completely unacceptable. and those who are responsible for the use of chemical weapons, if it's determined that's what happened, will be held accountable. >> a united nations chemical investigations team arrived in syria just days ago, part of the 14-day mission to investigate claims of chemical weapons in other prior attacks. and today the u.n. security council today held an emergency meeting. all this, all of this, amid a whirlwind of news out of egypt already in a state of tremendous tumult with hosni mubarak set to be released from prison ahead of
a retrial, there are worries about further violence in a country that, of course, has seen recent crackdowns against pro-morsi rebels and awful reprisals against egyptian police and christian civilians in places of worship. joining me now is nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel. richard, what do we know? what can be confirmed about the awful, awful, awful images we are seeing out of syria today? >> reporter: we've spoken to medical personnel. we've spoken to syrian activists in these areas where the attacks allegedly took place. clearly something happened. they believe it was a chemical gas attack that around 2:30 in the morning there began a barrage of surface to surface rockets first firing into the eastern suburbs just outside of damascus. that lasted for about an hour with apartment buildings being hit. initially people thought that it was just more of the standard shelling that is very common
place in the war in syria as we've been seeing it. then casualties started showing up in the field hospitals, people started talking about chemical weapons attacks. then the casualties started flooding in. civilians, women, children, people who had been in those apartment buildings. after about an hour, the attacks shifted to the north, northern suburbs just outside of damascus, and a very similar pattern unfolding in those same areas. we don't exactly know the death toll. they range from hundreds to well over 1,000. but the kinds of stories, the kind of injuries, the kind of deaths that were suffered are fairly consistent in the videos. we can't authenticate the videos because they were posted independently by people who are supporting the revolution in syria, but they seem quite -- they seem very difficult to fake. we've also shown them to independent experts, chemical
weapons experts, who thought they were consistent with a nonconventional weapons attack. >> so what does this mean? the president has talked about a red line and has been careful in discussing a red line to talk about mass casualty events, to talk about systemic deployment. if we are seeing something like this, if it is confirmed, it seems to me is the most systemic mass attack, deployment of chemical weapons. what does that mean for the red line the president has noted? >> reporter: this would be a totally different scale of events. in the past we've talked about chemical weapons being used to kill one, two, five people in numerous attacks. that always struck observers as a bit strange, more of a terror tactic than a tactic of war. using a limited amount of chemical weapon to scare your enemy instead of creating mass casualties. if this, in fact, is confirmed, this would be a different kind of attack.
some of the rebels we're talking about well over 1,000 killed. as you mentioned in your intro, if that's confirmed it's one of the worst war crimes, one of the worst atrocities carried out in decades. the president talked about having a red line. if this is confirmed not only is it crossed, that red line has been jumped over. >> nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel, thank you. joining me now is author, journalist and msnbc contributor rula jebreal. you've spent some time with the rebels. you and i have both been, i think it's fair to say, skeptical of the efficacy of u.s. interjection. >> this is more than a red line. richard engel is right. this is a moment we need to show the regime that something will be done if he will continue. if he used these weapons he has to be held accountable. he has to give the u.n. access to all of these sites. who knows who can access these sites further. if it's a paled state, you can
have anybody and we are skeptical because there's within the free syrian army there is an element that is very islamist. what if there are these sites who have access to these sites are this kind of islamists. we need to intervene more now than ever. >> here is where i watch this and i think two things, what we see today, again, if confirmed we have to say we cannot verify the video but it does -- these circumstantial picture certainly looks like something truly horrific. >> it looks like iraq. it looks like saddam hussein did in iraq to the kurds. let's remember, enter the iranians when there's a civil war between iran and iraq, saddam hussein used chemical weapons and these are similar image to what we see coming from iraq from the kurdish area and from the iranian area. >> this is the incident in 1980 in which saddam hussein used chemical agents against the kurds. >> exactly. now, you know, he's gaining in the battlefield he's gaining ground.
>> assad? >> sorry, assad. and his allies in the region are helping him. iran, hezbollah, and he's looking at egypt and he's thinking, you know what, they toppled the president. we had islamists winning. it didn't succeed and now back to the old regime. even mubarak is coming by. >> you think assad is making the calculation he looks at the regional picture saying actually this arab spring, this wave of revolution, we're now seeing retrenchment, i can hold on to this. i can stick this out. >> exactly. also he sees confusion by the west. we weren't able to call a coup a real coup for days until now we're not even cutting the aid from the egyptians after they killed thousands of protesters. look, assad is the most machiavellian dictator in the region and he's looking around him and he's making a very hard calculation saying, okay, i tested the chemical weapons. nobody protested. now i'm testing it in a bigger scale. >> so let's say that is the
case. let's say those initial reports which were very small scale and baffling in their deployment we now see something, again, if confirmed, a mass attack, a war crime. >> a war crime. what is the response? you and i have talked about the dangers and the rebels, the fractious situation on the ground there, about the al qaeda affiliate elements that are part of the rebel group the free syrian army, we talked about the possibility of blow back, the difficulty of control. so what does any kind of escalating u.s. intervention or accountability or punishment for crossing the red line look like? >> look, we have to think about it this way. what is the least worst option that we have today? to leave the situation like this, this is not an option. the real option today is really to push and not to leave before things are fixed, to push on the international community, convince the russians. the russians will not stand up to this. the israelis will not stand up to this. before we intervene, they may try to intervene themselves
because this is, you know, threatening their areas, threatening the golan heights and other areas. and there's already communication between the rebels and the israelis. >> the thing i worry about the most is, is the idea that there is a sequence of testing here, about how far and what he can get away with and if this is allowed. at the same time i just -- it is an absolute no good options situation. >> no, look, if assad will leave, we know from now that this war will carry on for maybe -- for many years. let's put it this way. we know that there will be retaliation. there will be a failed state and there will be an islamist element within it, but we have to understand that there's no solution until the syrians, all of them, write a social contract where everybody is included, minorities especially, women, kurds, everybody inside. that has to be done now before we enter the region. >> we are very, very far from that. msnbc contributor rula jebreal. >> thank you for having me. republicans won't give up on trying to get rid of obama care.
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i understand that my actions violated a law and i regret if my actions hurt anyone or harmed the united states. when i chose to disclose classified information, i did so out of a love for my country and a sense of duty to others. if you deny my request for a pardon, i will serve my time knowing that sometimes you have to pay a heavy price to live in a free society. those are the words of private bradley manning today after he was sentenced to 35 years in prison for leaking hundreds of thousands of classified u.s. documents. he'll be eligible for parole in seven years. his sentence is exactly 11 years longer than the sentence for army specialist jeremy warlock who pled guilty in 2007 to three
counts of premeditated murder after he admitted to taking part in the killing of three afghan civilians for sport. bradley manning will, in all likelihood, do more time for leaking documents. he renewal notice. by about $110 a month. roll the dice. care act was passed, company to go down by about $60 a month. little guy rebecca: the law works. jamie to checkout. he there are lots of "jamies" out there, but that doesn't mean we're all the same.
just like greek yogurts. that's why i prefer activia greek. mmm! activia helps regulate your digestive system. activia greek, ♪ activia! like no other greek yogurt. ♪ dannon when it comes to obama care it seems there is no amount of encouraging or even downright good news about the law that will pop the bubble of rage, discontent and rooting for failure on the right. yesterday house speaker john boehner said republicans are, quote, looking at all options to reach our ultimate goal of repealing this law that is causing premiums to soar. that's the leader of the republican party saying republicans want to repeal it because health care premiums are
soaring. this week we found out that is not true. in fact, quite the opposite. according to a survey released yesterday by the kaiser family foundation, the average annual premium for a family of four rose 4% in 2013. now that 4% is still a lot. still more than the 1.8% increase in wages and the 1.1% rate of inflation, but it is also historically speaking a very small increase, way lower than growth in the late 1990s and early 2000s. in other words, the trend of premiums is they are doing the opposite of soaring. they are landing. so far republicans are not letting that interrupt their war against the law and something tells me they won't let a new report from "usa today" get in the way either. the report found that estimates from the 19 states operating health exchanges for the uninsured show that at least 8.5 million people will use the exchanges to buy insurance. a number that would far outstrip the federal government's estimate of 7 million new
customers for all 5 states under the 2010 health care law. health exchanges for the uninsured are actually working. republicans are not interested. last night we actually did see something out of the ordinary. a little dose of reality injected into the world of ted cruze and the defund obama care campaign when a woman in the crowd asked him a pointed question. >> hold on. ma'am, feel free to speak. >> i recently lost my health coverage. has anyone else in this room -- i had to go to mexico to get my diabetic medication because i could not afford it in the states. i just want to know what you are going to do to take care of the 6 million people who can't afford health care. >> we can take care of ourselves.
>> as it turns out not every republican is impervious to the basic reality of what the president's health care law does and could do. clint murphy, a 30-year-old man, has spent much of his life working in the republican party. at one point working for the national republican congressional committee, the bush administration, and even running a campaign against barack obama with john mccain in 2008. but today, after surviving testicular cancer and years of battling insurance companies over pre-existing condition, he's seen the light and now supports the president's health care law. at this moment he does not have health insurance and so clint murphy joins me right now. what was the moment -- >> hi, chris. >> hi, clint. what was the moment when you changed your mind on this? >> i mean, it was an evolving process. definitely not -- you know, in 2010, i figured after ten years i should be good to get health insurance on the individual market and was turned down again. this time instead of it being
cancer it ended up being the -- i was taking a drug for anxiety. they cited that as a pre-existing condition and sleep apnea as a pre-existing condition and i was straight up denied by two different companies. >> so obviously that's exactly the kind of denial that would be outlawed under the new affordable care act that is outlawed under the affordable care act. for people that are watching this and saying, okay, i see what happens, this guy, when it happens to him, decides the law is good but why can't he and his fellow republicans just have a little bit of empathetic imagination, extend out the barriers of their thinking a little bit to imagine their fellow citizens finding themselves in a similar situation? >> yeah, and i think that's a fair question to ask. since i was diagnosed in 2000 i've fought every day a part of my life to help improve those who survive cancer, to help fund
a cure and see an end to cancer in our lifetime. as we started going into the 2008 race, i was really optimistic about the dialogue that was taking place and after the president was elected the spirit of bipartisanship quickly faded away and everyone retreated to their corners. >> okay. what do you think when you watch this many years on when you watch republicans wanting to defund the law, wanting to get rid of a law that has given people coverage, that would actually take coverage away from people, would take coverage away from you? what do you think about that? >> it's gotten to the point where it's something that i cannot support and will not support anybody with that position. we're talking about something that affects my life and affects a lot of the people that i love and care about. and it's not right. it's not fair and it's pure blind partisanship that is drawing this rain of thought.
at the risk of destroying this country it seems like the republican party is really obsessed with being against anything that barack obama is for, whether it was their idea to begin with or whose idea. i mean, at some point we need to set aside our partisanship and focus on what's good for the people of this country and, you know, when you're not even participating in the process the way the republicans have refused to participate in it, you're not -- you're not really doing public service. you're not serving from a servant's heart anymore and, really, you need to get out of the way and let other people do the job. that's how i feel. >> you worked in the past for karen handle who is running for senate in georgia. she worked on her gubernatorial campaign in 2010. you were supporting her in her senate run and then you learned that she, herself, wants to defund obama care. what do you make of that? >> that was a really big shot. i must say that i was really
taken aback by that position because i definitely expected a more nuanced position that would, you know, talk about the parts of the law -- obviously the one that affects me the most, affects a lot of people the moe, the pre-existing conditions but, you know, blanket defund, blanket repeal, those aren't realistic policies because they're never going to go anywhere. the people out there talking that are doing nothing but scaring people. they are preying on the lowest common denominator politics, and it's really a disgrace, in my opinion. i'm really -- i think it's unfortunate that that's the position that her campaign has decided to take and i wish them all the well, but it's just a bridge too far for me to go on. >> former gop staffer clint murphy, thank you very much for your time tonight. >> thank you. we'll be right back. ♪ [ villain ] well mr. baldwin... it appears our journey has come to a delightful end.
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while warning about the dangers of having gun owners information stored in a national database, you'll never guess who is building one of their own without gun owners' consent. and this exists, plans for building that would have an actual corridor, you heard me right. those stories coming up. first the three awesomest things on the internet today beginning with an internet puzzler from slate that doubles as a reminder of how terrible our congress is. gerrymandering, of course, is
the manipulation of the boundaries of voting districts in order to gain partisan advantage. slate's website asks to you solve their gerrymandering jigsaw puzzles and times you. iowa with four big districts is a no-brainer. michigan is a little funnier but not a killer. beginning in north carolina, this happy little online civics lesson starts to get somewhat difficult. by the time you get to pennsylvania, you may want to quit. it's rigged to help republicans win it in six minutes. beginning with a casual day at the beach that was interrupted by a 550-ton military hover craft. this video was uploaded to youtube on tuesday. none of the beach goers were injured when the massive amphibious vehicle made its slow motion landing. the ministry of defense said this was a routine drill. they also say this is their freaking beach.
quote, docking at the beach is a regular practice. we don't know what people were doing at the beach which is within the military firing range, but that is only the second craziest russian video of the day. this is a motorist on a highway following a dump truck hauling what looks like a deer. do not worry, folks, that was not a real deer, the dump truck driver just plain forgot about the 40-foot deer statue in the back and the two locals who had the common sense to record the event and post it online. and the third is the epic speech given earlier this week at georgia tech by sophomore nicholas selby. freshman convocation day and his speech to welcome the incoming students was all about the
awesomeness of georgia tech. let me tell you, this dude loves georgia tech. >> so i am telling you if you want to change the world, you're at georgia tech. you can do that. if you want to build the iron man suit, you're at georgia tech. you can do that. if you want to play theme music during your convocation speech like a bad [ bleep ], we're at georgia tech. we can do that. i am doing that! >> well, okay. now that was pretty good. we think nicholas selby motivational nerd god. you can find all the links on our website. we'll be right back. the end. lovely read susan. may i read something? yes, please. of course. a rich, never bitter taste cup after cup. 340 grams.
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shooters in newtown, they're unrecognizable. they're not going to be in the system. who is going to be in the system? you and me and our names will be in the system. there is going to be a list created, that list will be abused. some newspaper will print it all. somebody will hack it. there will be a registry. >> that was wayne lapierre raising the it terrifying specter of a national gun registry earlier this year. it turns out there is a sophisticated, near comprehensive database in existence but it doesn't belong to the federal government. it belongs to the nra. an explosive new reveal shows tens of millions of people. you'd expect the nra to have a database of its members, of course, but this, this is a database of current, former, and prospective gun owners and it's been put together largely without people's knowledge or consent precisely the type of vast and secretive registry the nra has so successfully fear mongered over for years.
the database has been built through years of acquiring registration lists, gathering names of new owners from the thousands of gun safety classes taught by nra-certified instructors, and by buying lists of attendees of gun shows, subscribers to gun magazines and are more. e-mails obtained through the freedom of information act request show nra representatives offering payment to state agencies in exchange for names of concealed carry permit holders. one lobbyist writing to an iowa public safety official, if the nra wanted to collect data from permit holder files, is there a specific process or many rules for us to require the records? can we pay to have the files copied or sent to us? meanwhile, nra-certified trainer admits teaching gun safety classes not only helps beef up the database, it's a great way to get the boss' attention. after people take a class then you as an instructor can send all their names to washington and you get credit for that. if you show you taught enough classes you can move up in the hierarchy as an nra trainer.
when asked what the nra does with those rosters turned in by it's nearly 100,000 certified instructors an nra spokesman told buzz feed that's not any of your business but it is the nra's business to know your business. the database has helped the group raise tens of millions of dollars, maintain political supremacy. what about those people who are told by wayne lapierre, the rand pauls of the world to fear the collection of names in a supposed national gun registry? knowledge of the nra's own registry prompt a revolt? as a former lobbyist puts it, probably won't care because the nra is not part of the government. joining me now is gary young a columnist for "the guardian" newspaper. there are folks who might look at this and say, hey look, this is not any different than what
big retailers like target does, what the obama campaign famously does, we're in the era of big data, you're grabbing as much data as you can, assembling information about your prospective targets. what's wrong with this kind of thing? >> there is something to that. there is something to the idea that this is a form of marketing and it's about an organization and so object and so forth. and that the difference would be between, for example, "the nation" magazine where i have a column where you used to work, between "the nation" magazine knowing who signed on to an anti-war petition or something like that and there have targets members and the bush administration. >> right. >> i agree. so there's a distinction between what the government has and what private entities have and i think that's a fair distinction
but what to me is crucial here are two things. one, it shows that you use the term marketing. it shows how much the nra is ultimately a marketing vessel, the degree to which it is a creature of the gun industry, and it also shows the degree to which they are doing this without anyone's knowledge. i mean, people don't know when they sign up for a class they're turning information over. people don't know when they get a concealed carry permit they're turning the information over. >> well, right. i mean, the bottom line and feldman kind of has it right, the man you quoted in the end, the former lobbyist. the real issue here is that the nra doesn't -- or a large stock of nra members, and i went to the convention last year and have done some polling on this, they don't fear the nra. >> right. >> they do fear the -- they do fear the government. the nra, they would say, is not trying to take my gun away. and whereas they believe the
government is. the fact is, however, at the end of the day this is a national registry of gun owners, i mean, that's precisely what it is. you can -- you can call it what you want but at the end of the day, it walks and it quacks like a duck. the nra is the organization that collects information on gun owners. and it's the list that's the problem. if the collection of the list is a problem, then they have -- >> right, they have the database, and lord knows what national security letter or what national agency wanted to acquire it. as we know the porous line between the government and private data that's collected which grows ever more porous by the day. gary young from "the guardian," thanks for your time. >> thank you. right now there exists a perfect physical example of just how our society is being divided up piece by piece, class by class. i'll tell you what it is next. [ school bell rings ] ♪ school's out [ male announcer ] from the last day of school, back to the first. they're gonna write a lot.
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thousands of presentations. and one hard earned partnership. it took a lot of work to get this far. so now i'm supposed to take a back seat when it comes to my investments? there's zero chance of that happening. avo: when you work with a schwab financial consultant, you'll get the guidance you need with the control you want. talk to us today. have you noticed what's been going on in commercial air travel recently, like when you go to buy a ticket, for a long time it used to be you'd only have first class for people with lots of money and then coach for everyone else. but over time the airlines have invented close to a dozen of these narrowly tailored new classes in between. so now we have coach, coach plus, premium coach, the not quite premium coach, but isn't
quite business class either, pay more for an exit row, leg room, business class, business first and, finally, first class. and this proliferation of new narrow classes and fine distinctions is for me the perfect metaphor for what seems to be happening in every sector of american society getting ever more thinly sliced every day into paper thin categories of service and access and comfort and dignity based on what you can pay. and people, all of us, are being channelled into these different classes, separated from each other and constantly forced to think about our own relative status. if you want a particularly high definition example of what this looks like, check out the rendering for this building, construction is being planned on the upper west side of manhattan for a 33 floor condo building that will include five floors of affordable housing for low income families. but the thing is the building will have a separate entrance, a so-called poor door for the low income residents.
adding affordable housing to a market rate building allows the developer, in this case, to get a tax break worth millions of dollars. the irony here is that the people living in those affordable apartments whose homes are designed to integrate the neighborhood will for all intents and purposes be physically segregated from their rich neighbors who live right there in the same building. joining me now is josh barrel, politics editor at business insider and bertha lewis of the association for community organization for reform known as a.c.o.r.n. and founder and president of the black institute. josh, everyone is outraged about the poor door and you say the poor door is a great thing. >> well, at least i don't think it's a problem. i mean, this policy we have where you try to get some luxury apartments for in this case those who are fairly are poor, often you can qualify for one of these middle income apartments if you make as much as $ed 180,000 a year. in any case they have a lottery and so a handful of people get one of these wonderful
apartments with a river view. the city has rules when the apartments are in the same building, you have to make sure had a you distribute the views all the same so if 20% are affordable, then they have to get a proportionate share of the river view apartments. it creates a handful of lucky people who get these. i've heard statistics as many as 15,000 people applying for 200 units available. it's a crazy way to give out affordable housing. and so what they're doing with the so-called poor door is they're taking the parts of the building that don't face the hudson river, they face the back, and so you can get an apartment on the upper west side, a one bedroom would be between $900 and $1,000 which is a third of the market rent. >> people are like, that's affordable? >> on the upper west side of manhattan, north of $3,000 for a new construction, one-bedroom apartment. so i don't understand what's so terrible about giving this very deeply discounted apartment in a very desirable neighborhood. >> and you have to go through a separate entrance. >> this is a jim crowe building. you have a colored entrance and -- >> well, we should say it is not segregated by race.
>> don't tell me that it won't. here is why. number one, people of color are the folks who apply for this. i'm a developer. i've built apartments. i know that you do not have to segregate people in this way, and you certainly don't have them around the back. also, because of this minuscule 20%, that's the reason why this building even goes. that's the reason why the finances even work. i live in brooklyn and people know i support the atlantic yard 50/50 program. that housing which got through hpd half of the apartments are affordable, half, and yet they're not segregated. the elevator goes up for the rich as well as the poor. there's no segregation of services. the way that extel has done this, that is total segregation by race and class. >> for folks that are watching, atlantic yards is one of the most controversial in the last
decade, it was fought tooth and nail over. a.c.o.r.n. challenged it and endorsed the development only after concessions were made on precisely this issue which is how much of the housing will be affordable for folks? >> you get big towers that go up and you get to have members of the city council come can out. with this program, this building is being built under, it's been around for eight years. we don't do any other income support programs like this. if we took food stamps and said instead we'll take steak houses and set aside 15 of their meals and sell them to middle income people and then we say, you know, well, it's so that we don't have this classist system where only rich people eat in fancy restaurants. it would be a crazy way to do nutrition support. >> please, bertha? >> this is a bit insulting to say and make those kinds of
comparisons. this is a very serious subject. >> it is. >> i fought for 421, a program, because at first they were getting these 421a tax breaks abatements which were nothing. >> let me explain the policy involved. it's if you want to build a big new development you are basically accessing this incredibly incredibly powerful resource which is the airspace. it used to be you applied for it and you got it. the city said, wait, that's a valuable resource. we're only going to give it if you willed affordable housing. >> not just for airspace but if you want to build and you want to get some sort of subsidy or tax abatement to make your project go financially you have to set aside 20%. but here is the thing, prior to folks like myself pietying to reform that, developers used to be able to get all of these tax breaks for doing nothing.
and so we cannot use taxpayer dollars in order it to further segregation and any kind of discrimination and i'm happy that robert jackson and the council has put together a bill that will, in fact, address this. we have a rate to walk on the upper west side. >> you have a vision to make this work and be more efficient. i want to talk about an aversion to the story but with vastly different stakes, about a new study that shows what your odds are of getting a kidney transplant if you're unemployed. a new study out of the university of new hampshire shows just how deeply inequality is sewn into the fabric of american life. the study says there's a strong negative association between a patient's unemployment and the likelihood of being placed on a waiting list for a kidney for pain and swelling?
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a new study out of the university of new hampshire shows just how deeply inequality is sewn into the fabric of american life. the study says there's a strong negative association between a patient's unemployment and the likelihood of being placed on a waiting list for a kidney transplant. and once on the waiting list the likelihood of receiving a transplant meaning that if you need a kidney, you don't have a job, then you're probably out of luck. oh, well. still with me are josh barrel from business insider, bertha lewis, former ceo of a.c.o.r.n. and now bob woodward, not that bob woodward, the other bob woodward from the university of new hampshire and who helped conduct the research for the study. this study brought me up short and made me say how could this possibly be? walk me through the results.
>> okay. so 2.2 times is the probability of getting on to the waiting list or getting a transplant if you have a job when you compare to not having a job. so people have a job have 120% greater chance of getting on the transplant and getting on the waiting list and having the transplant. the question is whether this makes sense. there are people be on the waiting list whose kidneys have already failed. at the same time we are only able to transplant, we can only procure from living donors something in the neighborhood of 18,000 each year. that means there's a tremendous shortage. the question becomes who gets the kidneys. the correlation shows when you actually don't have a job, the fact of the matter is, and you're young, you don't have medicare because you're only 65, the fact of the matter is that after three years medicare, which covers the transplant, stops paying for the suppression medications.
the so the docs are in a quandary. hey, wait a minute, we want to give these kidneys to people who are going to use them for the longest time possible. on the other hand you have the ethical question of whether unemployment should be a criteria for allocating the kidneys. let me say on behalf of -- >> i want to emphasize for everyone to track that because there's a lot of information. what is key here the causal mechanism is a judgment made by doctors that the fact of unemployment that they know about the patient is more likely to mean they cannot afford the necessary drugs three years down the line and the kidney doesn't take or provides more complications. so an affirmative decision made by doctors as they're weighing these life-and-death choices that unemployment is a mark against you. >> there's no easy answer. >> right. >> it's not so much a mark against it. i think there's no kidney center that i know about that would
consider employment or unemployment explicitly. what they do consider is the prediction of compliance and the trouble is that medicare's current laws say that if you are not eligible for medicare because of age, that is if you're eligible for medicare for the failure of your kidneys, medicare will pay for the transplant. medicare will pay for immunosuppression for three years and then you're on your own. which means the likelihood of -- go ahead. >> you go ahead. >> likelihood of noncompliance goes way up. >> i hear this -- >> if you can't pay for the medication. >> i hear this story, josh, and i think to myself this is precisely the issue that i have which is that, look, yes, we live in a capital society in which price is going to mean and wealth is going to mean different people can afford different things. we're not going to live in a
society everyone has a $ 5,000 car and people can't live in a $5,000 apartment and there are all sorts of ways that works its way through a market system. my fear is that those inequalities are like a drop of ink in a glass of water and they end up blotting everything. it's one thing to say to me, look, not everyone can live in a neighborhood that's expensive and i kind of understand that. that's market segregation. not everyone can fly first class. but then i see this and think to myself this is poison, poison for society if those inequalities start to bleed into everything. >> you need a mix of marketing government solutions here. the government has created much of the problem by setting a price control on kidneys. you are not allowed to compensate someone living or dead and for that reason a lot of people aren't organ donors.
if you made it possible, we wouldn't have this kidney shortage. people wouldn't be waiting five years and we wouldn't have to decide who gets a kidney. now that said you need to make sure that people can afford -- >> it's just not supporting the fact that people are able to sell their kidneys are then able to use that money wisely. the short -- the problem is you've got a great discrepancy. the people that end up giving kidneys that do so illegally now in iran or in china are doing so and getting far less than the market value. the history of places that have done kidneys for money is one of disaster. >> this is an important point, though. i like the fact that you double down and say need to further marketize this. josh barrel and bertha lewis, bob woodward, thank you. before we go tonight we want to introduce you to the newest member of the "all in with chris hayes" team. she is here in the world.
meet the brand-new daughter of our senior producer rebecca dryden and her husband born today. we are ecstatic. welcome to the world, lucille. congratulations. that is "all in" for this evening. "the rachel maddow show" starts right now. >> i have to say since you got rebecca dryden from "the rachel maddow show" we assert as much ownership and pride over little lou sell as you get. >> i almost thought it was trash talking to do this right in between the throw because rebecca is so great. >> oh, your baby you're proud of -- that's my baby! we're owl proud. thanks. thank you. and thanks to you at home for staying with us for the next hour. there is a lot going on in the news today. we're going to start here in new york city where the united nations has today called an emergency session to convene the security council of the u.n. on an emergency basis late today to respond to what looks like it may have been the largest chemical weapons attack in the world since saddam hussein